<sandro> Guest: Paul Groth
<sandro> Present: Ivan, Mischa, Dan_Brickley, Matheus, Peter, Jan, Baget, Humfrey, Yves, Cygri, Champin, Fabien, Steve, Matteo, Sandro, Wood, Guus, webr3
<sandro> Remote: AZ, Gavin, Steiner, Zhe, Corby, ww, LeeF, EricP, manu, macted, pat
07:56:20 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/04/13-rdf-wg-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/04/13-rdf-wg-irc ←
07:56:25 <gavinc> Mmm... 1 am is in fact morning I guess ;)
Gavin Carothers: Mmm... 1 am is in fact morning I guess ;) ←
07:56:27 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
Ivan Herman: rrsagent, set log public ←
07:56:44 <ivan> gavinc: just a minute, we will dial in soonish
Gavin Carothers: just a minute, we will dial in soonish [ Scribe Assist by Ivan Herman ] ←
07:56:50 <Zakim> + +1.404.978.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.404.978.aabb ←
07:57:19 <tomayac> zakim, aabb is me
Thomas Steiner: zakim, aabb is me ←
07:57:19 <Zakim> +tomayac; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +tomayac; got it ←
08:05:31 <Zakim> + +31.20.592.aacc
(No events recorded for 8 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: + +31.20.592.aacc ←
08:05:54 <pfps> zakim, who is here?
Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, who is here? ←
08:05:54 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavinc, tomayac, +31.20.592.aacc
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see gavinc, tomayac, +31.20.592.aacc ←
08:05:55 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call? ←
08:05:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavinc, tomayac, +31.20.592.aacc
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see gavinc, tomayac, +31.20.592.aacc ←
08:06:35 <AZ> Hello
Antoine Zimmermann: Hello ←
<sandro> Topic: Introductions (Around the Table)
<sandro> Ivan Herman
Sandro Hawke: Ivan Herman ←
<sandro> Mischa Tuffield
Sandro Hawke: Mischa Tuffield ←
<sandro> Dan Brickley
Sandro Hawke: Dan Brickley ←
<sandro> Christopher Matheus
Sandro Hawke: Christopher Matheus ←
<sandro> Peter Patel-Schneider
Sandro Hawke: Peter Patel-Schneider ←
<sandro> Jan Wielemaker
Sandro Hawke: Jan Wielemaker ←
<sandro> Jean-François Baget
Sandro Hawke: Jean-François Baget ←
<sandro> Nicholas Humfrey
Sandro Hawke: Nicholas Humfrey ←
<sandro> Yves Raimond
Sandro Hawke: Yves Raimond ←
<sandro> Richard Cyganiak
Sandro Hawke: Richard Cyganiak ←
<sandro> Pierre-Antoine Champin
Sandro Hawke: Pierre-Antoine Champin ←
<sandro> Fabien Gandon
Sandro Hawke: Fabien Gandon ←
<sandro> Steve Harris
Sandro Hawke: Steve Harris ←
<sandro> Matteo Brunati
Sandro Hawke: Matteo Brunati ←
<sandro> Sandro Hawke
Sandro Hawke: Sandro Hawke ←
<sandro> David Wood
Sandro Hawke: David Wood ←
<sandro> Guus Schreiber
Sandro Hawke: Guus Schreiber ←
08:09:13 <Zakim> + +1.760.705.aaee
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.760.705.aaee ←
08:09:24 <AZ> zakim, +1.760.705.aaee is me
Antoine Zimmermann: zakim, +1.760.705.aaee is me ←
08:09:24 <Zakim> +AZ; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ; got it ←
08:09:28 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
Ivan Herman: zakim, who is here? ←
08:09:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavinc, tomayac, +31.20.592.aacc, OlivierCorby, AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see gavinc, tomayac, +31.20.592.aacc, OlivierCorby, AZ ←
08:09:55 <AZ> zakim, mute me
Antoine Zimmermann: zakim, mute me ←
08:09:55 <Zakim> AZ should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: AZ should now be muted ←
08:10:01 <ivan> zakim, aacc is ivan
Ivan Herman: zakim, aacc is ivan ←
08:10:01 <Zakim> +ivan; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +ivan; got it ←
08:10:03 <pfps> zakim, aacc is CWI
Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, aacc is CWI ←
08:10:03 <Zakim> sorry, pfps, I do not recognize a party named 'aacc'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, pfps, I do not recognize a party named 'aacc' ←
08:10:25 <sandro> zakim, ivan is Meeting_Room
Sandro Hawke: zakim, ivan is Meeting_Room ←
08:10:25 <Zakim> +Meeting_Room; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Meeting_Room; got it ←
08:10:53 <SteveH> Scribe: mischat
(Scribe set to Mischa Tuffield)
08:11:00 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1 ←
08:11:27 <FabGandon> zakim, who is here?
Fabien Gandon: zakim, who is here? ←
08:11:27 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavinc, tomayac, Meeting_Room, OlivierCorby, AZ (muted)
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see gavinc, tomayac, Meeting_Room, OlivierCorby, AZ (muted) ←
<sandro> Topic: Agenda Review
08:11:55 <mischat> Guus: are we happy with the agenda ?
Guus Schreiber: are we happy with the agenda ? ←
08:12:11 <mischat> Guus: does anything need to be amended?
Guus Schreiber: does anything need to be amended? ←
08:12:46 <mischat> as thomas is not here so matteo will be giving the json roundup
as thomas is not here so matteo will be giving the json roundup ←
08:13:38 <mischat> thanks
thanks ←
08:18:23 <mischat> is everyone physically at CWI turning up to dinner tonight ?
is everyone physically at CWI turning up to dinner tonight ? ←
08:18:26 <mischat> if not shout ...
if not shout ... ←
08:19:02 <mischat> anyone for agenda changes ?
anyone for agenda changes ? ←
08:19:16 <mischat> we are looking at this now
we are looking at this now ←
08:19:16 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1-objectives
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1-objectives ←
08:19:26 <mischat> ^^ are the objectives for this f2f
^^ are the objectives for this f2f ←
08:19:57 <mischat> Guus: this f2f to move us from an open discussion to a more targeted effort
Guus Schreiber: this f2f to move us from an open discussion to a more targeted effort ←
08:20:24 <mischat> we are looking to get documents in place
we are looking to get documents in place ←
08:21:02 <mischat> from now on we should have our long threads turn into something tangible and useful for the process
from now on we should have our long threads turn into something tangible and useful for the process ←
08:21:33 <mischat> we are now looking to identify starting documents for the various tasks
we are now looking to identify starting documents for the various tasks ←
08:21:50 <mischat> Guus: would like to have names against the various documents, so that we can push work forward
Guus Schreiber: would like to have names against the various documents, so that we can push work forward ←
08:21:59 <mischat> Graph's tasks force
Graph's tasks force ←
08:22:40 <mischat> we have some standard terminology now in terms of GraphTerminology
we have some standard terminology now in terms of GraphTerminology ←
08:23:11 <mischat> Guus: another issues is the alignment with the SPARQL work
Guus Schreiber: another issues is the alignment with the SPARQL work ←
08:23:26 <NickH> http://plixi.com/p/92009392
Nicholas Humfrey: http://plixi.com/p/92009392 ←
08:24:03 <mischat> Guus: so what will be the starting document for the GRaphs TF, should it be the RDF concepts
Guus Schreiber: so what will be the starting document for the GRaphs TF, should it be the RDF concepts ←
08:24:05 <mischat> ?
? ←
08:24:19 <mischat> that is the current feeling, and these are things which we need to discuss
that is the current feeling, and these are things which we need to discuss ←
08:24:38 <tomayac> thanks, NickH for the photo :-)
Thomas Steiner: thanks, NickH for the photo :-) ←
08:25:18 <mischat> Guus: we have some cleanup tasks, and there are discussions needed to identify what changes need to happen to the various RDF documents
Guus Schreiber: we have some cleanup tasks, and there are discussions needed to identify what changes need to happen to the various RDF documents ←
08:25:48 <mischat> Guus: we seem to have a good grasp of the issues, re: a good issue list has been developed
Guus Schreiber: we seem to have a good grasp of the issues, re: a good issue list has been developed ←
08:25:59 <mischat> Guus: do people think we have a good grasp of the problem domain ?
Guus Schreiber: do people think we have a good grasp of the problem domain ? ←
08:26:04 <mischat> question for the room ^^
question for the room ^^ ←
08:26:30 <FabGandon> for ecah identifier we define (e.g. g-box identifiers) we should also discuss what happens when we dereference that identifier (e.g. what do I get when I dereference the IRI of g-box? triples in the g-box? triples about g-box? both)
Fabien Gandon: for ecah identifier we define (e.g. g-box identifiers) we should also discuss what happens when we dereference that identifier (e.g. what do I get when I dereference the IRI of g-box? triples in the g-box? triples about g-box? both) ←
08:27:57 <pgroth> - moving on to discussing turtle
Paul Groth: - moving on to discussing turtle ←
08:28:03 <FabGandon> Guus: for TURTLE starting point is the doc from team submission
Guus Schreiber: for TURTLE starting point is the doc from team submission [ Scribe Assist by Fabien Gandon ] ←
08:28:56 <FabGandon> Guus: N-triple considered as a limited sub-set of Turtle
Guus Schreiber: N-triple considered as a limited sub-set of Turtle [ Scribe Assist by Fabien Gandon ] ←
08:29:07 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
Ivan Herman: zakim, who is here? ←
08:29:07 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavinc, tomayac, Meeting_Room, OlivierCorby, AZ (muted)
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see gavinc, tomayac, Meeting_Room, OlivierCorby, AZ (muted) ←
08:29:22 <NickH> pchampin: very impressive!
Pierre-Antoine Champin: very impressive! [ Scribe Assist by Nicholas Humfrey ] ←
08:30:16 <ivan> zakim, Meeting_Room has David Wood, Sandro, Mateo, Steve Harris, Fabien, Pierre Antoine, Cygri, Yves, Nick, Jean-François, Jan, PFPS, Paul Groth, Chris Matheus, Dan Brickley, Misha Tuffield, Ivan
Ivan Herman: zakim, Meeting_Room has David Wood, Sandro, Mateo, Steve Harris, Fabien, Pierre Antoine, Cygri, Yves, Nick, Jean-François, Jan, PFPS, Paul Groth, Chris Matheus, Dan Brickley, Misha Tuffield, Ivan ←
08:30:16 <Zakim> +David, Wood, Sandro, Mateo, Steve, Harris, Fabien, Pierre, Antoine, Cygri, Yves, Nick, Jean-François, Jan, PFPS, Paul, Groth, Chris, Matheus, Dan, Brickley, Misha, Tuffield,
Zakim IRC Bot: +David, Wood, Sandro, Mateo, Steve, Harris, Fabien, Pierre, Antoine, Cygri, Yves, Nick, Jean-François, Jan, PFPS, Paul, Groth, Chris, Matheus, Dan, Brickley, Misha, Tuffield, ←
08:30:20 <Zakim> ... Ivan; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: ... Ivan; got it ←
08:30:35 <mischat> JSON, we have documents to start from, in terms of the Talis submission
JSON, we have documents to start from, in terms of the Talis submission ←
08:30:47 <yvesr> if we're not able to standardise object-based json, can we at least standardise a canonical mapping from an rdf graph to some straight-fw json?
Yves Raimond: if we're not able to standardise object-based json, can we at least standardise a canonical mapping from an rdf graph to some straight-fw json? ←
08:31:14 <mischat> davidWood: just asked about Talis submitting a member submission
David Wood: just asked about Talis submitting a member submission ←
08:31:48 <mischat> Guus: it is important to figure out what is achievable in terms of work in the JSON TF
Guus Schreiber: it is important to figure out what is achievable in terms of work in the JSON TF ←
08:32:31 <mischat> danbri: JSON developers learn new formats all the time
Dan Brickley: JSON developers learn new formats all the time ←
08:33:04 <mischat> danbri: we can get it wrong, and push out three syntaxes, and we will get it right eventually
Dan Brickley: we can get it wrong, and push out three syntaxes, and we will get it right eventually ←
08:33:47 <mischat> in the JSON TF, we need to elicit what our objectives should be
in the JSON TF, we need to elicit what our objectives should be ←
08:34:07 <mischat> if we develop more than one syntax then we will have doubled the work
if we develop more than one syntax then we will have doubled the work ←
08:34:18 <mischat> ivan: asked about cleanup related actions
Ivan Herman: asked about cleanup related actions ←
08:34:26 <mischat> Guus: there is time set aside for that tomorrow
Guus Schreiber: there is time set aside for that tomorrow ←
08:34:51 <mischat> Guus: has no idea how much work the cleanup will be
Guus Schreiber: has no idea how much work the cleanup will be ←
08:35:35 <mischat> ivan there are a bunch of small issues, URIRef vs IRI
ivan there are a bunch of small issues, URIRef vs IRI ←
08:35:42 <pchampin> ivan: following discussion on the ML, we need to agree on what 'deprecation' means for this WG
Ivan Herman: following discussion on the ML, we need to agree on what 'deprecation' means for this WG [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
08:36:00 <tomayac> (audio no longer understandable on the US no. anyone else on the phone have this issue, too?)
Thomas Steiner: (audio no longer understandable on the US no. anyone else on the phone have this issue, too?) ←
08:36:04 <mischat> ivan: the meta-issue regarding "deprecation" should be discussed and sorted out here at the f2f
Ivan Herman: the meta-issue regarding "deprecation" should be discussed and sorted out here at the f2f ←
08:36:33 <mischat> the issue will be tackled tomorrow, but we are going to try and touch upon it now
the issue will be tackled tomorrow, but we are going to try and touch upon it now ←
08:36:34 <mischat> for 20 mins
for 20 mins ←
08:37:12 <ivan> q?
Ivan Herman: q? ←
08:37:17 <mischat> so lunch at somepoint between 12:30-13:00 central european summer time
so lunch at somepoint between 12:30-13:00 central european summer time ←
08:37:46 <mischat> davidwood: re: turtle, dave wants to know what standardised will be developed by tthe WG
David Wood: re: turtle, dave wants to know what standardised will be developed by tthe WG ←
08:37:56 <tomayac> (audio back to normal. phew)
Thomas Steiner: (audio back to normal. phew) ←
08:38:27 <mischat> i.e. we will have turtle, will we have qturtle, trig, or what combination of serialisations will we develop
i.e. we will have turtle, will we have qturtle, trig, or what combination of serialisations will we develop ←
08:39:12 <tomayac> sandro FTW! thanks!
Thomas Steiner: sandro FTW! thanks! ←
08:39:15 <mischat> peter: question should we have Qturtle, or turtle, should one be a superset ?
Peter Patel-Schneider: question should we have Qturtle, or turtle, should one be a superset ? ←
08:39:37 <mischat> so dave would like to see issue sorted out
so dave would like to see issue sorted out ←
08:40:00 <mischat> SteveH: said we could have one document which lists all of the turtle(related) serialisations
Steve Harris: said we could have one document which lists all of the turtle(related) serialisations ←
08:40:16 <pchampin> sounds like a great idea to me
Pierre-Antoine Champin: sounds like a great idea to me ←
08:40:31 <mischat> Dave's goal for the f2f is to nail the turtle work
Dave's goal for the f2f is to nail the turtle work ←
08:40:48 <mischat> so we have clear goals, turtle work seems to be the most advanced
so we have clear goals, turtle work seems to be the most advanced ←
08:41:27 <mischat> danbri, we have a big archive "www rdf comments", will someone go through the archives
danbri, we have a big archive "www rdf comments", will someone go through the archives ←
08:41:38 <mischat> where we have had lots of feedback from people about RDF
where we have had lots of feedback from people about RDF ←
08:42:27 <tomayac> sandro, i up-scale it client-side, works perfect for me. thanks!
Thomas Steiner: sandro, i up-scale it client-side, works perfect for me. thanks! ←
08:43:24 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2000/03/rdf-tracking/#/%23futures - historical RDF issues
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2000/03/rdf-tracking/#/%23futures - historical RDF issues ←
<pfps> Topic: Graphs Task Force
08:43:35 <mischat> we are going to move on to the Graph's discussion, if we are happy with the objectives ?
we are going to move on to the Graph's discussion, if we are happy with the objectives ? ←
08:43:59 <mischat> Richard is about to give some slides summarising the graphs work
Richard is about to give some slides summarising the graphs work ←
08:44:52 <mischat> there are some slides on the wiki for richard's talk
there are some slides on the wiki for richard's talk ←
08:44:56 <cygri> slides: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/images/3/3b/Rdfwg-graphs-tf-report.pdf
Richard Cyganiak: slides: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/images/3/3b/Rdfwg-graphs-tf-report.pdf ←
08:45:48 <mischat> cygri: will talk about the "problem", the "open issues", and will give us a view of other potential issues
Richard Cyganiak: will talk about the "problem", the "open issues", and will give us a view of other potential issues ←
08:46:17 <mischat> the charter says we must standardising a model for multiple graphs
the charter says we must standardising a model for multiple graphs ←
08:47:06 <mischat> the charter also states that we must standardise turtle and a something similar with multi graph support
the charter also states that we must standardise turtle and a something similar with multi graph support ←
08:47:34 <mischat> a decision was made for the turtle to focus on syntax and the graphs tf can look at extending turtle
a decision was made for the turtle to focus on syntax and the graphs tf can look at extending turtle ←
08:48:16 <pfps> It's *turqle*!!!
Peter Patel-Schneider: It's *turqle*!!! ←
08:48:21 <mischat> davidwood: missed the call where the work of putting in mutlli graph support to turtle should be a task for the graphs tf
David Wood: missed the call where the work of putting in mutlli graph support to turtle should be a task for the graphs tf ←
08:49:01 <mischat> Guus: turtle tf can talk about the syntax, but the graphs tf will inform what the multi graph syntax should represent
Guus Schreiber: turtle tf can talk about the syntax, but the graphs tf will inform what the multi graph syntax should represent ←
08:49:21 <mischat> cygri: is listing inputs to the graphs tf
Richard Cyganiak: is listing inputs to the graphs tf ←
08:49:37 <mischat> sparql's rdf dataset: ( and sparql update's graph store)
sparql's rdf dataset: ( and sparql update's graph store) ←
08:49:42 <mischat> being one
being one ←
08:49:50 <mischat> Carroll et al " Named Graphs
Carroll et al " Named Graphs ←
08:49:56 <mischat> Notation3: quoted graphs
Notation3: quoted graphs ←
08:50:36 <FabGandon> I disagree with the idea that "named graphs" in RDF/XML should be only "if time permits", for me it's a must
Fabien Gandon: I disagree with the idea that "named graphs" in RDF/XML should be only "if time permits", for me it's a must ←
08:50:49 <mischat> n3 allows for nesting, and quoting graphs, the n3 work should definitely inform the named graphs tf
n3 allows for nesting, and quoting graphs, the n3 work should definitely inform the named graphs tf ←
08:51:10 <ivan> FabGandon: any modification to RDF/XML is time permitting
Fabien Gandon: any modification to RDF/XML is time permitting [ Scribe Assist by Ivan Herman ] ←
08:51:15 <mischat> Trig, and Nquads should help inform any syntax discussions
Trig, and Nquads should help inform any syntax discussions ←
08:51:48 <mischat> cygri: also FabGandon has request to add named graph support to RDF/XML (like trix)
Richard Cyganiak: also FabGandon has request to add named graph support to RDF/XML (like trix) ←
08:52:06 <mischat> Reification was mentioned as an input
Reification was mentioned as an input ←
08:52:14 <mischat> and finally Typed graph literals
and finally Typed graph literals ←
08:53:05 <mischat> cygri: is pointing to a wiki page which has the named graph use-cases
Richard Cyganiak: is pointing to a wiki page which has the named graph use-cases ←
08:53:13 <sandro> david: Can we just view Reificiation as a way to address named graphs, and once we do that, we can more cleanly deprecate reification?
David Wood: Can we just view Reificiation as a way to address named graphs, and once we do that, we can more cleanly deprecate reification? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
08:53:48 <mischat> which is broken down into the following : 5 storage use cases, 2 query use cases, 8 provenance, 4 use for standard foundation for w3c specs, 2 advanced annotations use case
which is broken down into the following : 5 storage use cases, 2 query use cases, 8 provenance, 4 use for standard foundation for w3c specs, 2 advanced annotations use case ←
08:54:17 <mischat> cygri: stated how we dont seem to be using the use-case we have in many of the discussion
Richard Cyganiak: stated how we dont seem to be using the use-case we have in many of the discussion ←
08:54:25 <mischat> we have lots of use-cases, they should be used
we have lots of use-cases, they should be used ←
08:54:33 <mischat> we have a bunch of proposals in this space
we have a bunch of proposals in this space ←
08:55:06 <mischat> we have 2 concrete proposal in this space so far
we have 2 concrete proposal in this space so far ←
08:55:10 <tomayac> sandro, small is good enough for me.
Thomas Steiner: sandro, small is good enough for me. ←
08:55:25 <mischat> cygri: there are implied proposals
Richard Cyganiak: there are implied proposals ←
08:55:50 <mischat> i.e. that n3's style quoted graphs may be more useful than the RDF dataset stuff
i.e. that n3's style quoted graphs may be more useful than the RDF dataset stuff ←
08:56:07 <mischat> cygri: is walking through the issues
Richard Cyganiak: is walking through the issues ←
08:56:15 <mischat> issue-5 : graph literals
08:56:32 <mischat> issue-5 asks whether we should have graph literals
ISSUE-5 asks whether we should have graph literals ←
08:57:16 <mischat> issue-14 : what is a named graph and what should we call it ?
ISSUE-14 : what is a named graph and what should we call it ? ←
08:57:43 <mischat> these include : Named Graph, named g-box ?, g-pair, or even IRI-graph-binding
these include : Named Graph, named g-box ?, g-pair, or even IRI-graph-binding ←
08:58:27 <mischat> ivan: would have liked to have seen a slide on "g-*" syntax
Ivan Herman: would have liked to have seen a slide on "g-*" syntax ←
08:58:47 <mischat> so that we can have agreement on what the terms are
so that we can have agreement on what the terms are ←
08:59:26 <gavinc> depends on how we quoted it ;)
Gavin Carothers: depends on how we quoted it ;) ←
08:59:56 <mischat> Guus: we need to come up with decent names for the g-* terminology, Guus personal opinion is that we need to make sure we dont use the overloaded term "graph" without qualifying it
Guus Schreiber: we need to come up with decent names for the g-* terminology, Guus personal opinion is that we need to make sure we dont use the overloaded term "graph" without qualifying it ←
09:00:18 <mischat> we need to make sure that we all agree on what the various g-* terminology is
we need to make sure that we all agree on what the various g-* terminology is ←
09:01:17 <mischat> pgroth: said that Luc Moreau Provenance WG has given feedback on the g-* syntax
Paul Groth: said that Luc Moreau Provenance WG has given feedback on the g-* syntax ←
09:01:24 <mischat> see mischat's email to the list ^^
see mischat's email to the list ^^ ←
09:01:38 <mischat> issue-15 : "g-pair" semantics
ISSUE-15 : "g-pair" semantics ←
09:01:53 <mischat> we have a couple of options re: this issue
we have a couple of options re: this issue ←
09:02:06 <mischat> 1: Leave it undefined (abstract syntax only)
1: Leave it undefined (abstract syntax only) ←
09:02:13 <Zakim> + +1.408.642.aaff
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.408.642.aaff ←
09:02:14 <mischat> 2: or we could define it
2: or we could define it ←
09:02:25 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
09:02:44 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
09:02:59 <yvesr> cygri: "is a person a g-box?"
Richard Cyganiak: "is a person a g-box?" [ Scribe Assist by Yves Raimond ] ←
09:03:06 <mischat> there are issues there re: scoping the terminologies used
there are issues there re: scoping the terminologies used ←
09:03:10 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
09:03:10 <Zakim> sorry, zwu2, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, zwu2, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you ←
09:03:50 <zwu2> zakim, +408.642.aaff is zwu2
Zhe Wu: zakim, +408.642.aaff is zwu2 ←
09:03:50 <Zakim> sorry, zwu2, I do not recognize a party named '+408.642.aaff'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, zwu2, I do not recognize a party named '+408.642.aaff' ←
09:03:57 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby.a
Zakim IRC Bot: +OlivierCorby.a ←
09:04:04 <ivan> zakim, aaff is zwu2
Ivan Herman: zakim, aaff is zwu2 ←
09:04:04 <Zakim> +zwu2; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2; got it ←
09:04:10 <zwu2> thanks ivan
09:04:14 <mischat> issue-17: graph merging
09:04:14 <trackbot> ISSUE-17 How are RDF datasets to be merged? notes added
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-17 How are RDF datasets to be merged? notes added ←
09:04:18 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
09:04:18 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: zwu2 should now be muted ←
09:04:20 <yvesr> in n3, there is a property in between the graph and the IRI, which makes that relationship explicit
Yves Raimond: in n3, there is a property in between the graph and the IRI, which makes that relationship explicit ←
09:04:24 <mischat> there are issues re: blank nodes and merging
there are issues re: blank nodes and merging ←
09:04:34 <mischat> and what would happen when merging graph datasets
and what would happen when merging graph datasets ←
09:05:20 <mischat> Guus: thinks that the main issue with extending RDF Semantics will be re: RDF merge, and posed as a question to peter
Guus Schreiber: thinks that the main issue with extending RDF Semantics will be re: RDF merge, and posed as a question to peter ←
09:05:47 <mischat> peter doesn't know what exactly what is needed, sparql has a notion of graph merge
peter doesn't know what exactly what is needed, sparql has a notion of graph merge ←
09:06:00 <mischat> ivan: we are informally bound by what sparql does
Ivan Herman: we are informally bound by what sparql does ←
09:06:25 <mischat> Guus: we should make sure that sparql and rdf align
Guus Schreiber: we should make sure that sparql and rdf align ←
09:06:47 <mischat> issue-21 : sharing Node IDs
09:07:06 <mischat> nodeId being bnode identifer
nodeId being bnode identifer ←
09:08:12 <mischat> cygri: the issue talks about the same bnode identifier in a quad based a trig file, how are the bnodes to be scoped ?
Richard Cyganiak: the issue talks about the same bnode identifier in a quad based a trig file, how are the bnodes to be scoped ? ←
09:10:14 <mischat> davidwood: thinks that we are going to be making strong statements about scoping bnodes and pushing it up to the RDF standards, but we should make sure that what we do doesn't break implementations
David Wood: thinks that we are going to be making strong statements about scoping bnodes and pushing it up to the RDF standards, but we should make sure that what we do doesn't break implementations ←
09:11:23 <mischat> issue-22 (empty graph)
09:11:53 <mischat> the issue is asking what we should be doing in terms of multi-graph support and empty graphs
the issue is asking what we should be doing in terms of multi-graph support and empty graphs ←
09:12:05 <mischat> trig, nquads, and sparql all do something different
trig, nquads, and sparql all do something different ←
09:12:13 <mischat> issue-23 (multigraph media types)
ISSUE-23 (multigraph media types) ←
09:13:00 <mischat> the issue asks whether we should change mime-types if we add graphs to existing serialisations
the issue asks whether we should change mime-types if we add graphs to existing serialisations ←
09:13:16 <Danbri> q+ to ask (no rush) re graph literal datatypes, whether a media types-as-Uris would be better than just defining our own for rdf syntaxes
Dan Brickley: q+ to ask (no rush) re graph literal datatypes, whether a media types-as-Uris would be better than just defining our own for rdf syntaxes ←
09:13:43 <mischat> issues: discussion volume : Graph Literals was the most talked about issue in the named graph tf
issues: discussion volume : Graph Literals was the most talked about issue in the named graph tf ←
09:14:00 <mischat> davidwood: asked about consensus re: graph literals
David Wood: asked about consensus re: graph literals ←
09:14:47 <mischat> cygri: candidate issues : Do we need nesting of graphs ?
Richard Cyganiak: candidate issues : Do we need nesting of graphs ? ←
09:15:16 <mischat> what is "nesting of graphs" ?
what is "nesting of graphs" ? ←
09:15:22 <mischat> could we have an example
could we have an example ←
09:15:42 <mischat> cygri: thinks that is would be hard to do without the graph literals
Richard Cyganiak: thinks that is would be hard to do without the graph literals ←
09:15:56 <mischat> ivan: essentially this is a syntax issue
Ivan Herman: essentially this is a syntax issue ←
09:17:04 <mischat> in the nested graph, or graph literals dont need to have a named graph
in the nested graph, or graph literals dont need to have a named graph ←
09:17:59 <mischat> we are about to create a new issue
we are about to create a new issue ←
09:18:32 <mischat> cygri: we don't know that the question is right now
Richard Cyganiak: we don't know that the question is right now ←
09:19:07 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby.aa
Zakim IRC Bot: +OlivierCorby.aa ←
09:19:10 <mischat> yvesr: states we need to have use-cases for the "nesting of graphs"
Yves Raimond: states we need to have use-cases for the "nesting of graphs" ←
09:19:37 <mischat> danbri: wonders whether it is a syntax question
Dan Brickley: wonders whether it is a syntax question ←
09:20:17 <sandro> ISSUE: Do we need syntactic nesting of graphs (g-texts) as in N3?
ISSUE: Do we need syntactic nesting of graphs (g-texts) as in N3? ←
09:20:18 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-28 - Do we need syntactic nesting of graphs (g-texts) as in N3? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/28/edit .
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-28 - Do we need syntactic nesting of graphs (g-texts) as in N3? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/28/edit . ←
09:20:25 <mischat> SteveH: thinks that it would be a syntax issue only if graphs with nesting could be serialised into some non-nesting serialisation such as turtle
Steve Harris: thinks that it would be a syntax issue only if graphs with nesting could be serialised into some non-nesting serialisation such as turtle ←
09:21:15 <mischat> davidwood: an open-issue re: how do we refer to graphs
David Wood: an open-issue re: how do we refer to graphs ←
09:21:38 <mischat> cygri: asked how do you name a graph
Richard Cyganiak: asked how do you name a graph ←
09:21:40 <Danbri> Of course we could nest multiple-graphs too ("here are the quads I downloaded from .... Yesterday")
Dan Brickley: Of course we could nest multiple-graphs too ("here are the quads I downloaded from .... Yesterday") ←
09:22:07 <mischat> cygri: goes back to issue-15 and asks whether that covers dave's issue
Richard Cyganiak: goes back to ISSUE-15 and asks whether that covers dave's issue ←
09:22:43 <mischat> cygri: next proposed issue, do we need a "default graph" ?
Richard Cyganiak: next proposed issue, do we need a "default graph" ? ←
09:23:02 <mischat> do we need to align with sparql, but we definitely need to define what a default graph is
do we need to align with sparql, but we definitely need to define what a default graph is ←
09:23:33 <Danbri> (default graph for The Web? :)
Dan Brickley: (default graph for The Web? :) ←
09:24:20 <mischat> davidwood: believes that AndyS's point re: "default graph" is that we should not be throwing away early thinking in terms of allowing people to define their own notion of default graph
David Wood: believes that AndyS's point re: "default graph" is that we should not be throwing away early thinking in terms of allowing people to define their own notion of default graph ←
09:25:19 <mischat> Guus: two important alignment issues with SPARQL, how do RDF datasets related to g-boxes and more specifically what is the relation between SPARQL's default graph and default graphs in RDF
Guus Schreiber: two important alignment issues with SPARQL, how do RDF datasets related to g-boxes and more specifically what is the relation between SPARQL's default graph and default graphs in RDF ←
09:26:06 <mischat> Guus and cygri would like an issue with alignment default graph from sparql
Guus and cygri would like an issue with alignment default graph from sparql ←
09:26:24 <mischat> peter would argue against the default graph
peter would argue against the default graph ←
09:26:49 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
09:26:56 <davidwood> ack Danbri
David Wood: ack Danbri ←
09:26:56 <Zakim> Danbri, you wanted to ask (no rush) re graph literal datatypes, whether a media types-as-Uris would be better than just defining our own for rdf syntaxes
Zakim IRC Bot: Danbri, you wanted to ask (no rush) re graph literal datatypes, whether a media types-as-Uris would be better than just defining our own for rdf syntaxes ←
09:27:14 <mischat> danbri: what would count towards to qualifying a triplestore dump in terms of default graph
Dan Brickley: what would count towards to qualifying a triplestore dump in terms of default graph ←
09:27:41 <sandro> steve: the SPARQL WG has backed itself into a corner wrt defaults.
Steve Harris: the SPARQL WG has backed itself into a corner wrt defaults. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
09:27:56 <sandro> pfps: give it a name, but throw the name away when you're done
Peter Patel-Schneider: give it a name, but throw the name away when you're done [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
09:27:57 <mischat> SteveH: says that the sparql group doesn't have a set resolution for this stuff
Steve Harris: says that the sparql group doesn't have a set resolution for this stuff ←
09:28:35 <pgroth> hey sandro, after the end of this discussion am I allowed to raise issues as an observer?
Paul Groth: hey sandro, after the end of this discussion am I allowed to raise issues as an observer? ←
09:28:40 <pgroth> or anybody
Paul Groth: or anybody ←
09:28:43 <Danbri> q?
Dan Brickley: q? ←
09:28:48 <mischat> cygri thinks there should be a relation between sparql's dataset, default graph
cygri thinks there should be a relation between sparql's dataset, default graph ←
09:29:00 <sandro> ISSUE: Do we support SPARQL's notion of "default graph"?
ISSUE: Do we support SPARQL's notion of "default graph"? ←
09:29:00 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-29 - Do we support SPARQL's notion of "default graph"? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/29/edit .
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-29 - Do we support SPARQL's notion of "default graph"? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/29/edit . ←
09:29:26 <sandro> ISSUE: How does SPARQL's notion of RDF dataset relate our notion of multiple graphs?
ISSUE: How does SPARQL's notion of RDF dataset relate our notion of multiple graphs? ←
09:29:27 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-30 - How does SPARQL's notion of RDF dataset relate our notion of multiple graphs? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/30/edit .
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-30 - How does SPARQL's notion of RDF dataset relate our notion of multiple graphs? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/30/edit . ←
09:29:46 <Danbri> Davidwood, zakim had an earlier q queued from me re graph literals - happy to defer if this is wrong point for it
Dan Brickley: Davidwood, zakim had an earlier q queued from me re graph literals - happy to defer if this is wrong point for it ←
09:29:47 <mischat> two separate issues : 'Do we support SPARQL's notion of "default graph"', and how does 'How does SPARQL's notion of RDF dataset relate our notion of multiple graphs'?
two separate issues : 'Do we support SPARQL's notion of "default graph"', and how does 'How does SPARQL's notion of RDF dataset relate our notion of multiple graphs'? ←
09:30:02 <mischat> cygri: asks do we NEED a concrete syntax for multi-graphs
Richard Cyganiak: asks do we NEED a concrete syntax for multi-graphs ←
09:30:41 <mischat> cygri: says that the charter talks about lots of syntax related work, does this need to be pushed upstream and do we need to standardise this concrete syntax
Richard Cyganiak: says that the charter talks about lots of syntax related work, does this need to be pushed upstream and do we need to standardise this concrete syntax ←
09:30:47 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby.aaa
Zakim IRC Bot: +OlivierCorby.aaa ←
09:30:58 <davidwood> Danbri: Please cover that when the list of candidate issues has been cleared, but before we move onto a new topic.
Dan Brickley: Please cover that when the list of candidate issues has been cleared, but before we move onto a new topic. [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ] ←
09:31:24 <Danbri> Fx
Dan Brickley: Fx ←
09:31:27 <Danbri> Er
Dan Brickley: Er ←
09:31:29 <Danbri> Tx
Dan Brickley: Tx ←
09:31:46 <sandro> ISSUE: Do we produce a standard (REC) syntax for conveying multiple graphs?
ISSUE: Do we produce a standard (REC) syntax for conveying multiple graphs? ←
09:31:46 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-31 - Do we produce a standard (REC) syntax for conveying multiple graphs? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/31/edit .
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-31 - Do we produce a standard (REC) syntax for conveying multiple graphs? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/31/edit . ←
09:31:52 <mischat> SteveH: asks where should this work be standardised
Steve Harris: asks where should this work be standardised ←
09:32:54 <mischat> cygri: asks whether the potential Reification deprecation should live in the cleanup tasks, or should it be in the graph's TF
Richard Cyganiak: asks whether the potential Reification deprecation should live in the cleanup tasks, or should it be in the graph's TF ←
09:33:42 <mischat> ivan: and sandro think that the reification cleanup will be scoped out properly depending on the outcomes of the graphs tf
Ivan Herman: and sandro think that the reification cleanup will be scoped out properly depending on the outcomes of the graphs tf ←
09:34:00 <mischat> cygri: now lists the minimal work to get to what the charter states
Richard Cyganiak: now lists the minimal work to get to what the charter states ←
09:34:26 <mischat> 1. Lift SPARQL's RDF Dataset into RDF Concepts and Abstract Syntax
1. Lift SPARQL's RDF Dataset into RDF Concepts and Abstract Syntax ←
09:34:48 <mischat> 2. Evaluate additional possible features based on use cases
2. Evaluate additional possible features based on use cases ←
09:35:02 <mischat> 3 Do not define a concrete syntax
3 Do not define a concrete syntax ←
09:35:18 <mischat> 4 If we MUST have a concrete syntax standardize N-Quads
4 If we MUST have a concrete syntax standardize N-Quads ←
09:35:33 <mischat> 5 Avoid multigraphs in RDF/XML, JSON, Turtle, and rdfa
5 Avoid multigraphs in RDF/XML, JSON, Turtle, and rdfa ←
09:35:42 <pgroth> I would like to raise the following three issues, if I'm allowed:
Paul Groth: I would like to raise the following three issues, if I'm allowed: ←
09:36:08 <pgroth> 1) Can g-snaps be identified?
Paul Groth: 1) Can g-snaps be identified? ←
09:36:19 <zwu2> like the N-quad idea
Zhe Wu: like the N-quad idea ←
09:37:13 <pgroth> 2) can the working group define which kinds of graphs are considered a resource
Paul Groth: 2) can the working group define which kinds of graphs are considered a resource ←
09:38:11 <mischat> danbri: has a question re: graph literals, maintenance, and what you would have to do. Would you require to mint a new URI for each media-type to support graph literals, danbri wonders whether we would just be recreating the mime-type registry
Dan Brickley: has a question re: graph literals, maintenance, and what you would have to do. Would you require to mint a new URI for each media-type to support graph literals, danbri wonders whether we would just be recreating the mime-type registry ←
09:39:11 <danbri> q+ to ask what form of advice we ought to be offering to http://www.w3.org/2011/01/rdfa-wg-charter.html
Dan Brickley: q+ to ask what form of advice we ought to be offering to http://www.w3.org/2011/01/rdfa-wg-charter.html ←
09:39:17 <pfps> Scribe: pfps
(Scribe set to Peter Patel-Schneider)
09:39:57 <pfps> Guus: can we work in the issue list?
Guus Schreiber: can we work in the issue list? ←
09:40:00 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/products/1
Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/products/1 ←
09:40:36 <pfps> pgroth: what about identification of all the various g-strings?
Paul Groth: what about identification of all the various g-strings? ←
09:40:41 <sandro> pgroth: Can g-snaps be identifies or just g-boxes?
Paul Groth: Can g-snaps be identifies or just g-boxes? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
09:40:43 <FabGandon> q+ to talk about concrete syntax and use cases and RDF/XML
Fabien Gandon: q+ to talk about concrete syntax and use cases and RDF/XML ←
09:40:53 <mischat> pgroth: is talking about this issue, which i forwared to the list : http://www.w3.org/mid/26C7BD9A-B3D9-45BD-984F-8D302C52F164@garlik.com
Paul Groth: is talking about this issue, which i forwared to the list : http://www.w3.org/mid/26C7BD9A-B3D9-45BD-984F-8D302C52F164@garlik.com [ Scribe Assist by Mischa Tuffield ] ←
09:41:39 <pfps> cygri: this depends on the relationship between an IRI and the "graph"
Richard Cyganiak: this depends on the relationship between an IRI and the "graph" ←
09:41:46 <danbri> (re URIs for mediatypes, see prev discussion http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/uri/2011Mar/0006.html http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/uri/2011Mar/0002.html )
Dan Brickley: (re URIs for mediatypes, see prev discussion http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/uri/2011Mar/0006.html http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/uri/2011Mar/0002.html ) ←
09:41:53 <sandro> cygri: graph literal is one way to do that. another is that maybe with named graphs is iris identifiy g-snaos. another is immutable g-boxes.
Richard Cyganiak: graph literal is one way to do that. another is that maybe with named graphs is iris identifiy g-snaos. another is immutable g-boxes. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
09:41:58 <pfps> cygri: does the IRI refer to the g-box or the g-snap, or whatever
Richard Cyganiak: does the IRI refer to the g-box or the g-snap, or whatever ←
09:42:38 <pfps> pgroth: Provenance WG happy to defer to the RDF WG for a solution, but we want something
Paul Groth: Provenance WG happy to defer to the RDF WG for a solution, but we want something ←
09:42:49 <mischat> sorry pchampin 1 sec
Mischa Tuffield: sorry pchampin 1 sec ←
09:42:51 <sandro> ISSUE: Can we identify both g-boxes and g-snaps?
ISSUE: Can we identify both g-boxes and g-snaps? ←
09:42:51 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-32 - Can we identify both g-boxes and g-snaps? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/32/edit .
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-32 - Can we identify both g-boxes and g-snaps? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/32/edit . ←
09:43:09 <pfps> davidwood: what about using timestamps to fix the value of a changing g-box
David Wood: what about using timestamps to fix the value of a changing g-box ←
09:43:23 <mischat> q+ on the provenance WG
Mischa Tuffield: q+ on the provenance WG ←
09:43:44 <pfps> pgroth: Provenance needs a language for the provenance of resources
Paul Groth: Provenance needs a language for the provenance of resources ←
09:44:02 <ww> suggestion: uuid for fixing value of changing g-box rather than timestamp
William Waites: suggestion: uuid for fixing value of changing g-box rather than timestamp ←
09:44:10 <mischat> pchampin: i sent an email to the list today, my mail headers claim this is the URI, but it 404's for me too : http://www.w3.org/mid/26C7BD9A-B3D9-45BD-984F-8D302C52F164@garlik.com <-- sorry
Pierre-Antoine Champin: i sent an email to the list today, my mail headers claim this is the URI, but it 404's for me too : http://www.w3.org/mid/26C7BD9A-B3D9-45BD-984F-8D302C52F164@garlik.com <-- sorry [ Scribe Assist by Mischa Tuffield ] ←
09:45:35 <pchampin> pchampin: not sure I understand what "provenance of a resource" means...
Pierre-Antoine Champin: not sure I understand what "provenance of a resource" means... [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
09:46:15 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: +OlivierCorby.aaaa ←
09:46:18 <pfps> scribe note: provenance of resources -> provenance of resources that are graphs
scribe note: provenance of resources -> provenance of resources that are graphs ←
09:46:37 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/01/prov-wg-charter <-- provenance WG charter
Mischa Tuffield: http://www.w3.org/2011/01/prov-wg-charter <-- provenance WG charter ←
09:46:54 <ww> provenance of a document makes sense... provenance of a resource is harder to pin down i think
William Waites: provenance of a document makes sense... provenance of a resource is harder to pin down i think ←
09:47:27 <ww> a g-snap being a certain kind of resource more like a document where it also makes sense...
William Waites: a g-snap being a certain kind of resource more like a document where it also makes sense... ←
09:47:43 <pfps> pgroth: provenance graphs can be relative to a particular viewpoint - which might involve part of a particular g-snap
Paul Groth: provenance graphs can be relative to a particular viewpoint - which might involve part of a particular g-snap ←
09:48:04 <ww> provenance of the resource that is my cup of coffee is more complicated and probably out of scope
William Waites: provenance of the resource that is my cup of coffee is more complicated and probably out of scope ←
09:48:06 <sandro> pgroth: Is there a way to select and refer to a subset of a g-snap?
Paul Groth: Is there a way to select and refer to a subset of a g-snap? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
09:48:16 <sandro> mischat: ... or individual triples.
Mischa Tuffield: ... or individual triples. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
09:48:28 <pfps> mischat: also from provenance - want to talk about particular triples
Mischa Tuffield: also from provenance - want to talk about particular triples ←
09:48:52 <ww> to talk about a particular triple is to talk about a graph of size 1, no?
William Waites: to talk about a particular triple is to talk about a graph of size 1, no? ←
09:48:56 <pfps> davidwood: provenance issues can result in very many graphs (e.g., hundreds of thousands)
David Wood: provenance issues can result in very many graphs (e.g., hundreds of thousands) ←
09:49:01 <ww> or is there a salient difference?
William Waites: or is there a salient difference? ←
09:49:14 <danbri> eg. https://github.com/tinkerpop/blueprints/wiki/ has per-triple annotation in a graph API
Dan Brickley: eg. https://github.com/tinkerpop/blueprints/wiki/ has per-triple annotation in a graph API ←
09:49:19 <pfps> pgroth: yes, e.g., creating a named graph for each triple
Paul Groth: yes, e.g., creating a named graph for each triple ←
09:50:07 <sandro> ISSUE: Do we provide a way to refer to sub-graphs and/or individual triples?
ISSUE: Do we provide a way to refer to sub-graphs and/or individual triples? ←
09:50:07 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-33 - Do we provide a way to refer to sub-graphs and/or individual triples? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/33/edit .
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-33 - Do we provide a way to refer to sub-graphs and/or individual triples? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/33/edit . ←
09:50:26 <ww> need some kind of inhertance - don't need to materialise graphs for each triple, just imply them, and they inherit the provenance information that makes sense from their super-graph
William Waites: need some kind of inhertance - don't need to materialise graphs for each triple, just imply them, and they inherit the provenance information that makes sense from their super-graph ←
09:50:36 <pfps> danbri: some (many?) graph stores allow access to things like individual triples (as graphs)
Dan Brickley: some (many?) graph stores allow access to things like individual triples (as graphs) ←
09:51:41 <danbri> the example I give is https://github.com/tinkerpop/blueprints/wiki/Property-Graph-Model ...they have written adaptors for a number of graph stores- https://github.com/tinkerpop/blueprints/wiki/Implementations
Dan Brickley: the example I give is https://github.com/tinkerpop/blueprints/wiki/Property-Graph-Model ...they have written adaptors for a number of graph stores- https://github.com/tinkerpop/blueprints/wiki/Implementations ←
09:51:53 <pfps> pgroth: does the WG need an issue about individual triples as graphs, etc.
Paul Groth: does the WG need an issue about individual triples as graphs, etc. ←
09:52:06 <pfps> guus: let's wait until we determine whether it is needed
Guus Schreiber: let's wait until we determine whether it is needed ←
09:52:34 <pfps> mischat: there are many other related issues, like signatures
Mischa Tuffield: there are many other related issues, like signatures ←
09:52:39 <pfps> ivan: signatures are out of scope
Ivan Herman: signatures are out of scope ←
09:53:01 <pfps> mischat: what about ordering of triples in a graph
Mischa Tuffield: what about ordering of triples in a graph ←
09:53:21 <pfps> ivan: syntax may provide an answer
Ivan Herman: syntax may provide an answer ←
09:53:23 <danbri> graph stores that have per-edge annotation: https://github.com/tinkerpop/blueprints/wiki/Neo4j-Implementation https://github.com/tinkerpop/blueprints/wiki/OrientDB-Implementation https://github.com/tinkerpop/blueprints/wiki/Dex-Implementation
Dan Brickley: graph stores that have per-edge annotation: https://github.com/tinkerpop/blueprints/wiki/Neo4j-Implementation https://github.com/tinkerpop/blueprints/wiki/OrientDB-Implementation https://github.com/tinkerpop/blueprints/wiki/Dex-Implementation ←
09:53:49 <ww> if signatures were in scope, defining an ordering to compute the signature would make sense, but generally there is no ordering, right?
William Waites: if signatures were in scope, defining an ordering to compute the signature would make sense, but generally there is no ordering, right? ←
09:54:06 <pfps> sandro: the SPARQL construct can (and often does) create small graphs, including individual triples
Sandro Hawke: the SPARQL construct can (and often does) create small graphs, including individual triples ←
09:54:07 <danbri> rrsagent, pointer?
Dan Brickley: rrsagent, pointer? ←
09:54:07 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2011/04/13-rdf-wg-irc#T09-54-07
RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2011/04/13-rdf-wg-irc#T09-54-07 ←
09:54:15 <sandro> agreed, ww
Sandro Hawke: agreed, ww ←
09:54:31 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
09:54:48 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
09:54:52 <pfps> davidwood: we may need to worry about distinguishing between the various g-* when naming
David Wood: we may need to worry about distinguishing between the various g-* when naming ←
09:54:57 <mischat> q-
Mischa Tuffield: q- ←
09:55:08 <pfps> zakim, who is here?
zakim, who is here? ←
09:55:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavinc, tomayac, Meeting_Room, OlivierCorby, AZ (muted), zwu2 (muted), OlivierCorby.a, OlivierCorby.aa, OlivierCorby.aaa, OlivierCorby.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see gavinc, tomayac, Meeting_Room, OlivierCorby, AZ (muted), zwu2 (muted), OlivierCorby.a, OlivierCorby.aa, OlivierCorby.aaa, OlivierCorby.aaaa ←
09:55:11 <Zakim> Meeting_Room has David, Wood, Sandro, Mateo, Steve, Harris, Fabien, Pierre, Antoine, Cygri, Yves, Nick, Jean-François, Jan, PFPS, Paul, Groth, Chris, Matheus, Dan, Brickley,
Zakim IRC Bot: Meeting_Room has David, Wood, Sandro, Mateo, Steve, Harris, Fabien, Pierre, Antoine, Cygri, Yves, Nick, Jean-François, Jan, PFPS, Paul, Groth, Chris, Matheus, Dan, Brickley, ←
09:55:13 <Zakim> ... Misha, Tuffield, Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: ... Misha, Tuffield, Ivan ←
09:55:21 <ww> per-edge annotation: actually the annotation is the predicate i think. two nodes make an edge (s,o), and the predicate labels the edge
William Waites: per-edge annotation: actually the annotation is the predicate i think. two nodes make an edge (s,o), and the predicate labels the edge ←
09:55:49 <ww> maybe the graph is a second lable for the edge
William Waites: maybe the graph is a second lable for the edge ←
09:55:59 <danbri> ivan, http://www.w3.org/2011/01/rdfa-wg-charter.html has ' The proposal for the group has now been accepted and the group operates under its final charter' but that link 404s
Dan Brickley: ivan, http://www.w3.org/2011/01/rdfa-wg-charter.html has ' The proposal for the group has now been accepted and the group operates under its final charter' but that link 404s ←
09:56:23 <ivan> danbri, reload
Ivan Herman: danbri, reload ←
09:56:39 <danbri> ack danbri
Dan Brickley: ack danbri ←
09:56:39 <Zakim> danbri, you wanted to ask what form of advice we ought to be offering to http://www.w3.org/2011/01/rdfa-wg-charter.html
Zakim IRC Bot: danbri, you wanted to ask what form of advice we ought to be offering to http://www.w3.org/2011/01/rdfa-wg-charter.html ←
09:56:39 <pfps> pchampin: SPARQL construct returns a g-text (sort of)
Pierre-Antoine Champin: SPARQL construct returns a g-text (sort of) ←
09:57:10 <sandro> davidwood: If you do a GET on an IRI and get a gtext, isnt that IRI naming a g-box? Well, if that IRI happens to be a SPARLQ-end-point plus SPARQL Construct Query, then you've just given a URI to a subgraph....
David Wood: If you do a GET on an IRI and get a gtext, isnt that IRI naming a g-box? Well, if that IRI happens to be a SPARLQ-end-point plus SPARQL Construct Query, then you've just given a URI to a subgraph.... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
09:57:28 <pfps> danbri: what about RDF Web Applications group - they will make an API for RDF - what is the relationship to this WG?
Dan Brickley: what about RDF Web Applications group - they will make an API for RDF - what is the relationship to this WG? ←
09:57:42 <ww> davidwood, what about the same sparql operation with POST?
William Waites: davidwood, what about the same sparql operation with POST? ←
09:57:49 <pfps> cygri: This hasn't been discussed yet
Richard Cyganiak: This hasn't been discussed yet ←
09:58:17 <pchampin> @david: I have no problem with considering http://../sparql@construct... as identifying a g-box
Pierre-Antoine Champin: @david: I have no problem with considering http://../sparql@construct... as identifying a g-box ←
09:58:36 <pfps> ivan: the API may be just a simple as "IRIs can be used to retrieve a graph"
Ivan Herman: the API may be just a simple as "IRIs can be used to retrieve a graph" ←
09:58:54 <pfps> ivan: RDFa has no syntactic sugar for named graphs, and probably won't go there
Ivan Herman: RDFa has no syntactic sugar for named graphs, and probably won't go there ←
09:59:50 <pfps> danbri: does this WG need to provide something to the RDF Applications group
Dan Brickley: does this WG need to provide something to the RDF Applications group ←
09:59:56 <pfps> ivan: not necessarily
Ivan Herman: not necessarily ←
10:00:29 <FabGandon> ack FabGandon
Fabien Gandon: ack FabGandon ←
10:00:29 <Zakim> FabGandon, you wanted to talk about concrete syntax and use cases and RDF/XML
Zakim IRC Bot: FabGandon, you wanted to talk about concrete syntax and use cases and RDF/XML ←
10:00:42 <pfps> fabien: three questions
Fabien Gandon: three questions ←
10:00:54 <pfps> fabien: 1/ I want a concrete syntax - for provenance,
Fabien Gandon: 1/ I want a concrete syntax - for provenance, ←
10:01:14 <pfps> fabien: 2/ in many applications we use RDF/XML so we want named graphs in there
Fabien Gandon: 2/ in many applications we use RDF/XML so we want named graphs in there ←
10:01:44 <danbri> Guus/Davidwood, cygri ... I guess implicitly we resolve something like "this group does not believe it has specific items to deliver around RDF-Graph that impact the ability of the new RDF Web apps API group to make progress"
Dan Brickley: Guus/Davidwood, cygri ... I guess implicitly we resolve something like "this group does not believe it has specific items to deliver around RDF-Graph that impact the ability of the new RDF Web apps API group to make progress" ←
10:02:11 <pfps> guus: at Shanghai there was discussion on this, which lead to changes to the charter
Guus Schreiber: at Shanghai there was discussion on this, which lead to changes to the charter ←
10:02:51 <pfps> ivan: this WG can decide whether (or not) to touch RDF/XML (probably to create a new, superset)
Ivan Herman: this WG can decide whether (or not) to touch RDF/XML (probably to create a new, superset) ←
10:02:59 <danbri> RDFAPI charter = http://www.w3.org/2011/03/rdfwa-wg-charter "RDF API, Recommendation: This document will define a generic API for managing RDF data. "
Dan Brickley: RDFAPI charter = http://www.w3.org/2011/03/rdfwa-wg-charter "RDF API, Recommendation: This document will define a generic API for managing RDF data. " ←
10:03:02 <pfps> ivan: I don't know whether this is needed
Ivan Herman: I don't know whether this is needed ←
10:03:11 <pfps> guus: this might become a general issue
Guus Schreiber: this might become a general issue ←
10:03:57 <pfps> cygri: issue 23 talks to this, at least in a general sense
Richard Cyganiak: ISSUE-23 talks to this, at least in a general sense ←
10:04:38 <pfps> ivan: there might be other changes for RDF/XML, e.g., a schema-friendly version
Ivan Herman: there might be other changes for RDF/XML, e.g., a schema-friendly version ←
10:05:18 <pfps> ivan: I am afraid that changing RDF/XML would end up being a lot of effort
Ivan Herman: I am afraid that changing RDF/XML would end up being a lot of effort ←
10:05:33 <danbri> +1
Dan Brickley: +1 ←
10:05:48 <pfps> guus: we have to consider these issues
Guus Schreiber: we have to consider these issues ←
10:06:26 <zwu2> fabien, can n-quad satisfy your provenance requirements?
Zhe Wu: fabien, can n-quad satisfy your provenance requirements? ←
10:06:54 <danbri> Re XML -- we've had 13 or so years for the community to come up with a more beautiful XML notation for RDF. Nothing has emerged. Does anyone really think attempting that work in committee would improve things?
Dan Brickley: Re XML -- we've had 13 or so years for the community to come up with a more beautiful XML notation for RDF. Nothing has emerged. Does anyone really think attempting that work in committee would improve things? ←
10:06:57 <pfps> fabien: 3/ link to SPARQL construct - which produces RDF/XML, so augmenting RDF/XML might involve a link to the SPARQL WG
Fabien Gandon: 3/ link to SPARQL construct - which produces RDF/XML, so augmenting RDF/XML might involve a link to the SPARQL WG ←
10:07:10 <danbri> closest attempt http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Syntax.html "You can think of this syntax as Notation 2. A later syntax, Notation 3, was much more successful."
Dan Brickley: closest attempt http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Syntax.html "You can think of this syntax as Notation 2. A later syntax, Notation 3, was much more successful." ←
10:07:18 <pfps> cygri: I don't think that there would be a link here
Richard Cyganiak: I don't think that there would be a link here ←
10:07:43 <pfps> fabien: this might argue against extending RDF/XML
Fabien Gandon: this might argue against extending RDF/XML ←
10:08:01 <gavinc> The original named graph paper Jeremy Carroll, et al... had a method of describing named graphs in RDF/XML
Gavin Carothers: The original named graph paper Jeremy Carroll, et al... had a method of describing named graphs in RDF/XML ←
10:08:12 <danbri> + we had a *whole wg* creating GRDDL to map from idiomatic XML into RDF (anyone using GRRDL?)
Dan Brickley: + we had a *whole wg* creating GRDDL to map from idiomatic XML into RDF (anyone using GRRDL?) ←
10:08:14 <pfps> davidwood: if we want to change RDF/XML we need XML experts, and there are lots of other things that would end up on the table
David Wood: if we want to change RDF/XML we need XML experts, and there are lots of other things that would end up on the table ←
10:08:43 <pfps> ivan: there are also no proposals for any change in this area
Ivan Herman: there are also no proposals for any change in this area ←
10:08:54 <Zakim> -AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ ←
10:09:25 <pfps> pfps: no proposals for extending RDF/XML indicates that there is little need
Peter Patel-Schneider: no proposals for extending RDF/XML indicates that there is little need ←
10:09:39 <Zakim> +AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ ←
10:09:42 <pfps> guus: subsume changes to RDF/XML under Issue 23
Guus Schreiber: subsume changes to RDF/XML under ISSUE-23 ←
10:09:42 <danbri> (imho RDF/XML is a pain because RDF is a pain, not because RDF/XML is particularly poorly defined)
Dan Brickley: (imho RDF/XML is a pain because RDF is a pain, not because RDF/XML is particularly poorly defined) ←
10:11:13 <pfps> mischat: what is the relationship between quad syntaxes and SPARQL's (construct) view of the world
Mischa Tuffield: what is the relationship between quad syntaxes and SPARQL's (construct) view of the world ←
10:11:35 <pfps> guus: let's put this in as a note on some issue
Guus Schreiber: let's put this in as a note on some issue ←
10:11:39 <mischat> zakim.�, who is making noise ?
Mischa Tuffield: zakim.�, who is making noise ? ←
10:11:41 <ivan> zakim, who is noisy?
Ivan Herman: zakim, who is noisy? ←
10:11:52 <Zakim> ivan, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Meeting_Room (48%)
Zakim IRC Bot: ivan, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Meeting_Room (48%) ←
10:11:59 <danbri> zakim, who else is noisy?
Dan Brickley: zakim, who else is noisy? ←
10:11:59 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, danbri.
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand your question, danbri. ←
10:12:11 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
10:12:13 <pchampin> zakim, mute AZ
Pierre-Antoine Champin: zakim, mute AZ ←
10:12:13 <Zakim> AZ should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: AZ should now be muted ←
10:12:41 <pfps> cygri: note on issue 30
Richard Cyganiak: note on ISSUE-30 ←
10:12:58 <mischat> i will annotate issue-30
Mischa Tuffield: i will annotate ISSUE-30 ←
10:13:32 <pfps> guus: we appear to have a reasonable list of issues for graphs
Guus Schreiber: we appear to have a reasonable list of issues for graphs ←
10:13:48 <tomayac> gavinc: same here :-( back to normal now, though :-)
Gavin Carothers: same here :-( back to normal now, though :-) [ Scribe Assist by Thomas Steiner ] ←
10:14:00 <pfps> guus: what should we work on first?
Guus Schreiber: what should we work on first? ←
10:15:15 <NickH> wi4
Nicholas Humfrey: wi4 ←
10:15:59 <ww> re issue-33 - maybe there is something to be learned from the evopat work out of leipzig. given a graph and a sparql query, produce a sub-graph. that process in some sense identifies the sub-graph.
William Waites: re ISSUE-33 - maybe there is something to be learned from the evopat work out of leipzig. given a graph and a sparql query, produce a sub-graph. that process in some sense identifies the sub-graph. ←
10:16:02 <pfps> ivan: what are the notions that we want to standardize?
Ivan Herman: what are the notions that we want to standardize? ←
10:16:28 <pfps> ivan: let's start with Richard's minimum solution and then critique it
Ivan Herman: let's start with Richard's minimum solution and then critique it ←
10:18:18 <pfps> guus: the minimum solution has syntax considerations so let's start there - this is issue 31
Guus Schreiber: the minimum solution has syntax considerations so let's start there - this is ISSUE-31 ←
10:19:08 <pfps> guus: Richard had a solution for what to put in to Concepts to handle named graphs
Guus Schreiber: Richard had a solution for what to put in to Concepts to handle named graphs ←
10:19:11 <mischat> I added a note to http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/30 re: construct and quads davidwood
Mischa Tuffield: I added a note to http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/30 re: construct and quads davidwood ←
10:19:16 <pfps> cygri: there were comments on that
Richard Cyganiak: there were comments on that ←
10:20:03 <pfps> sandro: my biggest issue is 15 - what is the relationship between IRI and a graph, i.e., what is the basics for semantics of named graphs?
Sandro Hawke: my biggest issue is 15 - what is the relationship between IRI and a graph, i.e., what is the basics for semantics of named graphs? ←
10:20:19 <pfps> guus is writing down a list of important issues
guus is writing down a list of important issues ←
10:21:50 <ww> is it a common convention to name graphs with the uri of their "main" subject? doing so helps dereferencing...
William Waites: is it a common convention to name graphs with the uri of their "main" subject? doing so helps dereferencing... ←
10:21:55 <pfps> issue list - 30: SPARQL dataset; 5: graph literals; 31: syntax; 23: media types; 15: semantics
issue list - 30: SPARQL dataset; 5: graph literals; 31: syntax; 23: media types; 15: semantics ←
10:22:37 <pfps> sandro: we could also try to pick out a small number of motivating use cases
Sandro Hawke: we could also try to pick out a small number of motivating use cases ←
10:22:59 <zwu2> could not hear anything
Zhe Wu: could not hear anything ←
10:23:02 <pfps> guus: do we have all the critical issues
Guus Schreiber: do we have all the critical issues ←
10:23:19 <pfps> fabien: what about terminology?
Fabien Gandon: what about terminology? ←
10:23:38 <zwu2> Can somebody please check the phone?
Zhe Wu: Can somebody please check the phone? ←
10:23:52 <pfps> guus: we all agree that the concepts are OK, but the names (g-*) are temporary
Guus Schreiber: we all agree that the concepts are OK, but the names (g-*) are temporary ←
10:24:00 <Zakim> -tomayac
Zakim IRC Bot: -tomayac ←
10:24:03 <danbri> zakim, who is on the phone?
Dan Brickley: zakim, who is on the phone? ←
10:24:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavinc, Meeting_Room, OlivierCorby, zwu2 (muted), OlivierCorby.a, OlivierCorby.aa, OlivierCorby.aaa, OlivierCorby.aaaa, AZ (muted)
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see gavinc, Meeting_Room, OlivierCorby, zwu2 (muted), OlivierCorby.a, OlivierCorby.aa, OlivierCorby.aaa, OlivierCorby.aaaa, AZ (muted) ←
10:24:06 <Zakim> Meeting_Room has David, Wood, Sandro, Mateo, Steve, Harris, Fabien, Pierre, Antoine, Cygri, Yves, Nick, Jean-François, Jan, PFPS, Paul, Groth, Chris, Matheus, Dan, Brickley,
Zakim IRC Bot: Meeting_Room has David, Wood, Sandro, Mateo, Steve, Harris, Fabien, Pierre, Antoine, Cygri, Yves, Nick, Jean-François, Jan, PFPS, Paul, Groth, Chris, Matheus, Dan, Brickley, ←
10:24:09 <Zakim> ... Misha, Tuffield, Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: ... Misha, Tuffield, Ivan ←
10:24:13 <tomayac> (gavinc and tomayac got disconnected)
Thomas Steiner: (gavinc and tomayac got disconnected) ←
10:24:18 <Zakim> -zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2 ←
10:24:26 <danbri> anyone else on the phone that hears us?
Dan Brickley: anyone else on the phone that hears us? ←
10:24:36 <AZ> I can't hear anything now
Antoine Zimmermann: I can't hear anything now ←
10:24:37 <Zakim> +tomayac
Zakim IRC Bot: +tomayac ←
10:24:38 <mischat> can anyone hear us
Mischa Tuffield: can anyone hear us ←
10:24:38 <Zakim> -gavinc
Zakim IRC Bot: -gavinc ←
10:24:55 <Zakim> +zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2 ←
10:25:03 <tomayac> (dialed in again, but silence)
Thomas Steiner: (dialed in again, but silence) ←
10:25:12 <zwu2> silence for me too
10:25:34 <danbri> we won't be able to fix it immediately, it seems - sorry
Dan Brickley: we won't be able to fix it immediately, it seems - sorry ←
10:25:41 <Zakim> +gavinc
Zakim IRC Bot: +gavinc ←
10:26:09 <pfps> davidwood: can we close 14 now as being subsumed
David Wood: can we close 14 now as being subsumed ←
10:26:26 <pfps> guus: let's not do this just now - in any case it may not be completely subsumed
Guus Schreiber: let's not do this just now - in any case it may not be completely subsumed ←
10:26:36 <tomayac> ivan: thanks. i'll be around till about 13:30 CEST, then need to leave (you know why, feel free to let people know)
Ivan Herman: thanks. i'll be around till about 13:30 CEST, then need to leave (you know why, feel free to let people know) [ Scribe Assist by Thomas Steiner ] ←
10:26:45 <pfps> cygri: other actions all appear to be less major
Richard Cyganiak: other actions all appear to be less major ←
10:26:56 <pfps> guus: action 31 may also be less major
Guus Schreiber: ACTION-31 may also be less major ←
10:27:10 <Zakim> -Meeting_Room
Zakim IRC Bot: -Meeting_Room ←
10:28:19 <pfps> cygri: issue 28 appear to be subservient to issue 5
Richard Cyganiak: ISSUE-28 appear to be subservient to ISSUE-5 ←
10:28:22 <Zakim> +??P2
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2 ←
10:28:31 <mischat> zakim, ??P2 is me
Mischa Tuffield: zakim, ??P2 is me ←
10:28:31 <Zakim> +mischat; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +mischat; got it ←
10:28:51 <zwu2> thanks
10:28:57 <pfps> cygri: issue 32 appears to be dependent on important one
Richard Cyganiak: ISSUE-32 appears to be dependent on important one ←
10:30:04 <pfps> guus: getting the issues out is an important goal
Guus Schreiber: getting the issues out is an important goal ←
10:30:32 <pfps> guus: the breakout should look at at least some of these issues and try to come up with potential solutions
Guus Schreiber: the breakout should look at at least some of these issues and try to come up with potential solutions ←
10:30:55 <pfps> guus: the breakout group should progress on
Guus Schreiber: the breakout group should progress on ←
10:32:32 <danbri> re graphs, ... http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-n-aryRelations/#general Issue 1: If property instances can link only two individuals, how do we deal with cases where we need to describe the instances of relations, such as its certainty, strength, etc? ... do we expect to improve that situation?
Dan Brickley: re graphs, ... http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-n-aryRelations/#general ISSUE-1: If property instances can link only two individuals, how do we deal with cases where we need to describe the instances of relations, such as its certainty, strength, etc? ... do we expect to improve that situation? ←
10:32:58 <tomayac> i'll be off for the whole afternoon :-( see you tomorrow. sorry to miss out.
Thomas Steiner: i'll be off for the whole afternoon :-( see you tomorrow. sorry to miss out. ←
10:33:19 <Zakim> -AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ ←
10:33:20 <Zakim> -OlivierCorby.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: -OlivierCorby.aaaa ←
10:33:48 <Zakim> -tomayac
Zakim IRC Bot: -tomayac ←
10:34:12 <Zakim> -zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2 ←
10:43:12 <ww> bon apetit everyone!
(No events recorded for 9 minutes)
William Waites: bon apetit everyone! ←
11:37:28 <mischat> can you guys still here us ?
(No events recorded for 54 minutes)
Mischa Tuffield: can you guys still here us ? ←
11:37:41 <mischat> i think the room is about to dial in now before we start
Mischa Tuffield: i think the room is about to dial in now before we start ←
11:37:41 <sandro> webcam running again.
Sandro Hawke: webcam running again. ←
11:38:16 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: +OlivierCorby.aaaa ←
11:38:19 <Zakim> +Meeting_Room
Zakim IRC Bot: +Meeting_Room ←
11:38:27 <Zakim> -mischat
Zakim IRC Bot: -mischat ←
11:38:37 <mischat> gavinc: can you hear properly ?
Gavin Carothers: can you hear properly ? [ Scribe Assist by Mischa Tuffield ] ←
<pchampin> scribe: pchampin
(Scribe set to Pierre-Antoine Champin)
11:39:06 <pchampin> topic: Deprecation
11:39:36 <pchampin> sandro: in a computer contexte: recommend not to use something that WILL eventually be replaced
Sandro Hawke: in a computer contexte: recommend not to use something that WILL eventually be replaced ←
11:40:02 <pchampin> danbri proposed to use the word 'archaic' instead
danbri proposed to use the word 'archaic' instead ←
11:40:08 <mischat> +1 to dan's language on this topic
Mischa Tuffield: +1 to dan's language on this topic ←
11:40:11 <pchampin> which does not imply replacement
which does not imply replacement ←
11:40:27 <pchampin> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/ArchaicFeatures
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/ArchaicFeatures ←
11:40:46 <danbri> (I proposed it mainly for vocabulary items; haven't thought about it so much for language-builtin / syntax / grammar aspects)
Dan Brickley: (I proposed it mainly for vocabulary items; haven't thought about it so much for language-builtin / syntax / grammar aspects) ←
11:41:19 <pchampin> ivan: what are the criteria to turn something into archaic' ?
Ivan Herman: what are the criteria to turn something into archaic' ? ←
11:41:23 <pchampin> (and what is the verb meaning 'turning something into archaic' ?)
(and what is the verb meaning 'turning something into archaic' ?) ←
11:42:05 <pchampin> sandro : [quoting the proposed text of issue 10]
sandro : [quoting the proposed text of ISSUE-10] ←
11:42:26 <pchampin> ivan: it does not answer my question
Ivan Herman: it does not answer my question ←
<pchampin> subtopic: issue-12
11:43:20 <pchampin> sandro: who likes proposal on issue-12?
Sandro Hawke: who likes proposal on ISSUE-12? ←
11:43:12 <gavinc> +1
Gavin Carothers: +1 ←
11:43:39 <pchampin> peter: there might be consequences with the semantics
Peter Patel-Schneider: there might be consequences with the semantics ←
11:43:53 <sandro> unanimous support
Sandro Hawke: unanimous support ←
11:46:02 <gavinc> PROPOSED: Mark xs:string as archaic for use in RDF, recommending use of plain literals instead. Recommend that systems silently convert xs:string data to plain literals.
PROPOSED: Mark xs:string as archaic for use in RDF, recommending use of plain literals instead. Recommend that systems silently convert xs:string data to plain literals. ←
11:46:03 <pchampin> sandro: maybe we should not settle on this right now given the short notice
Sandro Hawke: maybe we should not settle on this right now given the short notice ←
11:46:13 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
11:46:19 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
11:46:25 <gavinc> +1
Gavin Carothers: +1 ←
11:46:25 <mischat> there was a straw-poll in the room asking if anyone objects to making the xs:string archaic
Mischa Tuffield: there was a straw-poll in the room asking if anyone objects to making the xs:string archaic ←
11:46:26 <pchampin> guus: we can make a resolution and change it if there are objections
Guus Schreiber: we can make a resolution and change it if there are objections ←
11:46:26 <cygri> +1
Richard Cyganiak: +1 ←
11:46:27 <cmatheus> +1
Christopher Matheus: +1 ←
11:46:27 <NickH> +1
Nicholas Humfrey: +1 ←
11:46:28 <danbri> +1
Dan Brickley: +1 ←
11:46:28 <FabGandon> +1
Fabien Gandon: +1 ←
11:46:28 <mischat> +1
Mischa Tuffield: +1 ←
11:46:29 <pfps> +1
11:46:29 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
11:46:30 <pchampin> pchampin: +1
11:47:07 <yvesr> +1
Yves Raimond: +1 ←
11:46:50 <mischat> any objections ?
Mischa Tuffield: any objections ? ←
11:47:00 <sandro> RESOLVED: Mark xs:string as archaic for use in RDF, recommending use of plain literals instead. Recommend that systems silently convert xs:string data to plain literals.
RESOLVED: Mark xs:string as archaic for use in RDF, recommending use of plain literals instead. Recommend that systems silently convert xs:string data to plain literals. ←
11:47:51 <SteveH> I was +1 too for the record
Steve Harris: I was +1 too for the record ←
<pfps> There was subsequent email discussion on this issue, including some comments negative to the resolution, in the thread starting at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Apr/0307.html
Peter Patel-Schneider: There was subsequent email discussion on this issue, including some comments negative to the resolution, in the thread starting at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Apr/0307.html ←
11:48:00 <pchampin> peter: to do it right, we need to check whether it requires some check in the Semantics document
Peter Patel-Schneider: to do it right, we need to check whether it requires some check in the Semantics document ←
11:48:02 <sandro> action: peter to make sure the resolution to issue-12 gets into semantics document
ACTION: peter to make sure the resolution to ISSUE-12 gets into semantics document ←
11:48:03 <trackbot> Created ACTION-27 - Make sure the resolution to issue-12 gets into semantics document [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2011-04-20].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-27 - Make sure the resolution to ISSUE-12 gets into semantics document [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2011-04-20]. ←
11:48:30 <sandro> action: steve make sure issue-12 resolution gets to SPARQL
ACTION: steve make sure ISSUE-12 resolution gets to SPARQL ←
11:48:30 <trackbot> Created ACTION-28 - Make sure issue-12 resolution gets to SPARQL [on Steve Harris - due 2011-04-20].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-28 - Make sure ISSUE-12 resolution gets to SPARQL [on Steve Harris - due 2011-04-20]. ←
11:48:30 <davidwood> See post-FTF1 email discussion regarding this resolution at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Apr/0366.html
David Wood: See post-FTF1 email discussion regarding this resolution at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Apr/0366.html ←
11:49:24 <sandro> subtopic: issue-13
11:49:32 <gavinc> +q talk about rdf:XMLLiteral support in Jena, Raptor, 4Store, etc
Gavin Carothers: +q talk about rdf:XMLLiteral support in Jena, Raptor, 4Store, etc ←
11:49:44 <gavinc> +q to talk about rdf:XMLLiteral support in Jena, Raptor, 4Store, etc
Gavin Carothers: +q to talk about rdf:XMLLiteral support in Jena, Raptor, 4Store, etc ←
11:49:45 <pchampin> ivan: I hate XMLLiterals, but there are valid use cases (e.g. RSS)
Ivan Herman: I hate XMLLiterals, but there are valid use cases (e.g. RSS) ←
11:49:47 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
11:50:37 <SteveH> q+ to talk about canonicalisation
Steve Harris: q+ to talk about canonicalisation ←
11:51:31 <SteveH> q-
Steve Harris: q- ←
11:51:51 <sandro> cygri: Maybe just change the canonicalization
Richard Cyganiak: Maybe just change the canonicalization [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
11:51:55 <pchampin> jean-françois: back on issue 12, why not make it the other way? considering plain litteral as a shortcut for xsd:string?
jean-françois: back on ISSUE-12, why not make it the other way? considering plain litteral as a shortcut for xsd:string? ←
11:52:17 <Zakim> +zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2 ←
11:53:05 <mischat> q?
Mischa Tuffield: q? ←
11:53:06 <pchampin> sandro: I'm surprised about RSS; I only occasionally looked at RSS, but I saw quoted XML, not XMLLiteral
Sandro Hawke: I'm surprised about RSS; I only occasionally looked at RSS, but I saw quoted XML, not XMLLiteral ←
<pchampin> ivan: not all of them
Ivan Herman: not all of them ←
11:53:20 <davidwood> ack gavinc
David Wood: ack gavinc ←
11:53:20 <Zakim> gavinc, you wanted to talk about rdf:XMLLiteral support in Jena, Raptor, 4Store, etc
Zakim IRC Bot: gavinc, you wanted to talk about rdf:XMLLiteral support in Jena, Raptor, 4Store, etc ←
11:53:38 <sandro> sandro: on reason to MAA (mark as archaic) xmlliteral is that they're often/usually broken
Sandro Hawke: on reason to MAA (mark as archaic) xmlliteral is that they're often/usually broken [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
11:53:41 <danbri> I'm not convinced by the RSS case; RSS1 preceeded xml:Literal by 4 years, and had lost out to RSS2 and Atom by time of RDFCore. Most RSS/Atom feeds are not RDF/XML these days.
Dan Brickley: I'm not convinced by the RSS case; RSS1 preceeded xml:Literal by 4 years, and had lost out to RSS2 and Atom by time of RDFCore. Most RSS/Atom feeds are not RDF/XML these days. ←
11:54:13 <pchampin> gavinc: are there any implementation that use XMLLiterals properly?
Gavin Carothers: are there any implementation that use XMLLiterals properly? ←
11:54:19 <sandro> gavin: I'm not convinced XMLLiterals will get any better.
Gavin Carothers: I'm not convinced XMLLiterals will get any better. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
11:55:04 <sandro> ivan: I'd rather we try to fix rdf:XMLLiteral
Ivan Herman: I'd rather we try to fix rdf:XMLLiteral [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
11:55:04 <pchampin> ivan: at the moment, I would prefer to postpone that and see whether the ambiguities of XMLLiteral, relative to canonicalization, can be fixed
Ivan Herman: at the moment, I would prefer to postpone that and see whether the ambiguities of XMLLiteral, relative to canonicalization, can be fixed ←
11:55:10 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
11:55:30 <pchampin> the current canonicalization are not clear on who must do what
the current canonicalization are not clear on who must do what ←
11:56:05 <pchampin> I would be in favor or doing something cleaner IF we can
I would be in favor or doing something cleaner IF we can ←
11:56:34 <pchampin> sandro: we can do a straw poll about either trying to fix XMLLiteral or dropping them
Sandro Hawke: we can do a straw poll about either trying to fix XMLLiteral or dropping them ←
11:56:43 <gavinc> in favor of archaic
Gavin Carothers: in favor of archaic ←
11:56:49 <sandro> sense of room --- try to fix it.
Sandro Hawke: sense of room --- try to fix it. ←
11:57:20 <pchampin> david: why would you mark it as archaic, peter
David Wood: why would you mark it as archaic, peter ←
11:57:29 <sandro> peter: MAA because it's implemented sooo badly. EG in interacting with OWL.
Peter Patel-Schneider: MAA because it's implemented sooo badly. EG in interacting with OWL. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
11:58:14 <pchampin> peter: requires any OWL parser to have a *working* XML canonicalizer
Peter Patel-Schneider: requires any OWL parser to have a *working* XML canonicalizer ←
11:58:30 <pchampin> subtopic: issue-24 Containers
11:58:35 <gavinc> also, HTML5 isn't XML ;) so droping it into RDF can't use XMLLiteral
Gavin Carothers: also, HTML5 isn't XML ;) so droping it into RDF can't use XMLLiteral ←
11:58:51 <mischat> do we want this : http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-rdf-syntax/#section-Syntax-list-elements
Mischa Tuffield: do we want this : http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-rdf-syntax/#section-Syntax-list-elements ←
11:59:11 <sandro> danbri: Bag is useless, Alt is incoherent, Seq doesn't bother me the same way.
Dan Brickley: Bag is useless, Alt is incoherent, Seq doesn't bother me the same way. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
11:59:32 <pchampin> ivan: there is a huge lot of RDF data out there that use containers
Ivan Herman: there is a huge lot of RDF data out there that use containers ←
11:59:34 <sandro> ivan: Lots of data using this, but that's okay.
Ivan Herman: Lots of data using this, but that's okay. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
11:59:53 <pchampin> david: we are not including lists, here
David Wood: we are not including lists, here ←
12:00:17 <sandro> steve: if rdf Collections were better, I'd be more okay with this.
Steve Harris: if rdf Collections were better, I'd be more okay with this. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
12:00:21 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
12:01:16 <pchampin> jean-françois: part of the problem is that they have no defined semantics
jean-françois: part of the problem is that they have no defined semantics ←
12:01:36 <Zakim> + +1.617.553.aagg
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.617.553.aagg ←
12:01:38 <LeeF> zakim, aagg is me
Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, aagg is me ←
12:01:38 <Zakim> +LeeF; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +LeeF; got it ←
12:01:40 <pchampin> it was planned for the future, but never done
it was planned for the future, but never done ←
12:02:43 <pchampin> ivan: the container vocabulary contains all the rdf:_i terms, which are in infinite number
Ivan Herman: the container vocabulary contains all the rdf:_i terms, which are in infinite number ←
12:02:54 <pchampin> which causes trouble in the semantics
which causes trouble in the semantics ←
12:03:21 <LeeF> RRSAgent, pointer?
Lee Feigenbaum: RRSAgent, pointer? ←
12:03:21 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2011/04/13-rdf-wg-irc#T12-03-21
RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2011/04/13-rdf-wg-irc#T12-03-21 ←
12:03:23 <pchampin> If we MAA (mark as archaic) them, we can simplify the semantics
If we MAA (mark as archaic) them, we can simplify the semantics ←
12:03:25 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-office
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, please dial ericP-office ←
12:03:25 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ericP; the call is being made ←
12:03:27 <Zakim> +EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP ←
12:03:33 <ericP> Zakim, please disconnect ericP
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, please disconnect ericP ←
12:03:33 <Zakim> EricP is being disconnected
Zakim IRC Bot: EricP is being disconnected ←
12:03:34 <Zakim> -EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: -EricP ←
12:04:04 <Zakim> +EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP ←
12:04:08 <pchampin> steve: there are several problems with them
Steve Harris: there are several problems with them ←
12:04:12 <pchampin> serializing them in turtle
serializing them in turtle ←
12:04:19 <pchampin> no way to close them
no way to close them ←
12:04:47 <pchampin> guus: is there a way to fix some of them?
Guus Schreiber: is there a way to fix some of them? ←
12:05:08 <danbri> soemthing like: "The originally specified meanings of rdf:Alt and rdf:Bag constructs have not proved generally useful; rdf:Seq has more utility, but shares some formal problems with the others. They are all considered archaic constructs."
Dan Brickley: soemthing like: "The originally specified meanings of rdf:Alt and rdf:Bag constructs have not proved generally useful; rdf:Seq has more utility, but shares some formal problems with the others. They are all considered archaic constructs." ←
12:05:25 <pchampin> sandro: on the other hand, they are handy with SPARQL
Sandro Hawke: on the other hand, they are handy with SPARQL ←
12:05:28 <mischat> does anyone want to keep rdf alt and rdf bag ?
Mischa Tuffield: does anyone want to keep rdf alt and rdf bag ? ←
12:05:38 <sandro> every want to bag Alt and Bag.
Sandro Hawke: every want to bag Alt and Bag. ←
12:06:26 <danbri> steveh, that list-as-datatype ... written up somewhere?
Dan Brickley: steveh, that list-as-datatype ... written up somewhere? ←
12:06:41 <SteveH> danbri, no
Steve Harris: danbri, no ←
12:06:42 <pchampin> ivan: we have to be careful vis a vis Adobe how we mention that alt is now archaic
Ivan Herman: we have to be careful vis a vis Adobe how we mention that alt is now archaic ←
12:07:24 <pchampin> XMP uses Alt and Seq
XMP uses Alt and Seq ←
12:07:56 <danbri> q+ to suggest an action on ivan to blog this
Dan Brickley: q+ to suggest an action on ivan to blog this ←
12:08:10 <danbri> q-
Dan Brickley: q- ←
12:08:49 <pchampin> sandro: if we found a better way to do it, would you be ok to get rid of Seq?
Sandro Hawke: if we found a better way to do it, would you be ok to get rid of Seq? ←
12:09:16 <sandro> general sense that we should MAA rdf:Seq *if* we have a sensible alternative.
Sandro Hawke: general sense that we should MAA rdf:Seq *if* we have a sensible alternative. ←
12:09:23 <pchampin> [a majority of hands raised]
[a majority of hands raised] ←
12:10:10 <danbri> q?
Dan Brickley: q? ←
12:10:13 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call? ←
12:10:13 <Zakim> On the phone I see OlivierCorby, OlivierCorby.a, OlivierCorby.aa, OlivierCorby.aaa, gavinc, OlivierCorby.aaaa, Meeting_Room, zwu2, LeeF, EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see OlivierCorby, OlivierCorby.a, OlivierCorby.aa, OlivierCorby.aaa, gavinc, OlivierCorby.aaaa, Meeting_Room, zwu2, LeeF, EricP ←
12:10:25 <pchampin> topic: Turtle TF
12:11:37 <pchampin> steve: Level of SPARQL compatibility (issue-1)
Steve Harris: Level of SPARQL compatibility (ISSUE-1) ←
12:11:52 <pchampin> keywords (prefix, base)
keywords (prefix, base) ←
12:11:55 <pchampin> number handling
number handling ←
12:12:30 <pchampin> (issue-18 what does "18." mean)
(ISSUE-18 what does "18." mean) ←
12:12:47 <pchampin> yves: lots of parsers will return different things in Turtle
Yves Raimond: lots of parsers will return different things in Turtle ←
12:13:11 <pchampin> steve: the SPARQL solution is that "18." is a decimal
Steve Harris: the SPARQL solution is that "18." is a decimal ←
12:13:33 <pchampin> you need a space to put a dot after 18 as an int
you need a space to put a dot after 18 as an int ←
12:14:04 <pchampin> sandro: I feel that the space before the dot is making it hard for people to adopt Turtle
Sandro Hawke: I feel that the space before the dot is making it hard for people to adopt Turtle ←
12:14:20 <pchampin> ivan: it makes it hard for me :) I always forget it
Ivan Herman: it makes it hard for me :) I always forget it ←
12:14:55 <pchampin> sandro: why not require a zero after the dot if you want a decimal?
Sandro Hawke: why not require a zero after the dot if you want a decimal? ←
12:15:03 <pchampin> steve: having SPARQL change that is not an issue
Steve Harris: having SPARQL change that is not an issue ←
12:15:30 <pchampin> david: it's a purely syntactical point that some people feel religious about
David Wood: it's a purely syntactical point that some people feel religious about ←
12:15:35 <pchampin> possibly for no good reason
possibly for no good reason ←
12:16:00 <gavinc> Why the heck is 18. a decimal in the first place?
Gavin Carothers: Why the heck is 18. a decimal in the first place? ←
12:16:16 <mischat> because of the xml spec iirc gavinc
Mischa Tuffield: because of the xml spec iirc gavinc ←
12:16:28 <gavinc> xsd?
Gavin Carothers: xsd? ←
12:16:33 <ericP> i think there's a lot of precedent for that in existing programming langs
Eric Prud'hommeaux: i think there's a lot of precedent for that in existing programming langs ←
12:16:48 <mischat> gavinc: http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#decimal
Gavin Carothers: http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#decimal [ Scribe Assist by Mischa Tuffield ] ←
12:16:51 <pchampin> jan: this is linked to another problem: local name ending with a dot
Jan Wielemaker: this is linked to another problem: local name ending with a dot ←
12:17:02 <pchampin> steve: this is in a further slide
Steve Harris: this is in a further slide ←
12:17:10 <sandro> cygri: Can't you tell from the grammar?
Richard Cyganiak: Can't you tell from the grammar? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
12:17:26 <pchampin> steve: it makes the grammar more compocated to implement
Steve Harris: it makes the grammar more complicated to implement ←
12:17:31 <pchampin> s/compocated/complicated/
12:17:32 <sandro> SteveH: It's hard, it might be like lookahead 2 or something.
Steve Harris: It's hard, it might be like lookahead 2 or something. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
12:17:50 <sandro> +1 steve: require the zero, and the SPARQL folks to fix it, it was a bug.
Sandro Hawke: +1 steve: require the zero, and the SPARQL folks to fix it, it was a bug. ←
12:18:07 <gavinc> I don't think 18. is vaild in XQuery... if it is... I sure as heck never saw it
Gavin Carothers: I don't think 18. is vaild in XQuery... if it is... I sure as heck never saw it ←
12:18:21 <sandro> (and note that SPARQL folks can stull use the .0 )
Sandro Hawke: (and note that SPARQL folks can still use the .0 ) ←
12:18:32 <pchampin> s/stull/still/
12:18:46 <ericP> +1 to steve's "just fix it in turtle" proposal
Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 to steve's "just fix it in turtle" proposal ←
12:19:35 <gavinc> +1 to just fix it in turtle
Gavin Carothers: +1 to just fix it in turtle ←
12:19:41 <mischat> it is being proposed that removing the trailing "." at the end of turtle statements (via jaan) would be an easier fix
Mischa Tuffield: it is being proposed that removing the trailing "." at the end of turtle statements (via jan) would be an easier fix ←
12:20:10 <ivan> s/jaan/jan/
12:20:37 <sandro> PROPOSED: close ISSUE-18 by requiring digits after the decimal point, as in "18.0".
PROPOSED: close ISSUE-18 by requiring digits after the decimal point, as in "18.0". ←
12:20:38 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
12:20:48 <mischat> +1
Mischa Tuffield: +1 ←
12:20:48 <sandro> steve: +1
Steve Harris: +1 [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
12:20:49 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
12:20:51 <gavinc> +1
Gavin Carothers: +1 ←
12:20:53 <mischat> +1 from steveH
Mischa Tuffield: +1 from steveH ←
12:20:57 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
12:20:57 <NickH> +1
Nicholas Humfrey: +1 ←
12:20:59 <zwu2> +1
12:21:02 <pchampin> pchampin: +1
12:21:09 <FabGandon> +1
Fabien Gandon: +1 ←
12:21:12 <cygri> +1
Richard Cyganiak: +1 ←
12:21:28 <gavinc> YES
Gavin Carothers: YES ←
12:21:34 <gavinc> There is a whitespace in turtle issue ;)
Gavin Carothers: There is a whitespace in turtle issue ;) ←
12:21:44 <ericP> 。
12:21:51 <sandro> RESOLVED: close ISSUE-18 by requiring digits after the decimal point, as in "18.0"
RESOLVED: close ISSUE-18 by requiring digits after the decimal point, as in "18.0" ←
12:22:07 <LeeF> OK
Lee Feigenbaum: OK ←
12:22:08 <cmatheus> +1
Christopher Matheus: +1 ←
12:22:14 <danbri> (aside: I was just thinking: lifetime of average Turtle document is likely somewhat longer than lifetime of average SPARQL query)
Dan Brickley: (aside: I was just thinking: lifetime of average Turtle document is likely somewhat longer than lifetime of average SPARQL query) ←
12:22:24 <sandro> ACTION: Lee to convey our resoltuon on ISSUE-18 to SPARQL WG
ACTION: Lee to convey our resoltuon on ISSUE-18 to SPARQL WG ←
12:22:24 <trackbot> Created ACTION-29 - Convey our resoltuon on ISSUE-18 to SPARQL WG [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2011-04-20].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-29 - Convey our resoltuon on ISSUE-18 to SPARQL WG [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2011-04-20]. ←
12:22:48 <pchampin> steve: issue-1 qnames
Steve Harris: ISSUE-1 qnames ←
12:23:06 <pchampin> legal in SPARQL: ns:123 ns:1.2 ns:aaa.bbb
legal in SPARQL: ns:123 ns:1.2 ns:aaa.bbb ←
12:23:11 <davidwood> Danbri: Perhaps not with SPARQL stored procedures.
Dan Brickley: Perhaps not with SPARQL stored procedures. [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ] ←
12:23:12 <pchampin> not legal: ns:aaa.
not legal: ns:aaa. ←
12:23:40 <mischat> this was motivated due to dots in filenames
Mischa Tuffield: this was motivated due to dots in filenames ←
12:23:52 <pchampin> not sure about what turtle exactly saus
not sure about what turtle exactly says ←
12:23:56 <pchampin> s/saus/says/
12:24:23 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2010/01/Turtle/#prod-turtle2-PNAME_LN
Eric Prud'hommeaux: http://www.w3.org/2010/01/Turtle/#prod-turtle2-PNAME_LN ←
12:24:40 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2010/01/Turtle/#prod-turtle2-PN_LOCAL
Eric Prud'hommeaux: http://www.w3.org/2010/01/Turtle/#prod-turtle2-PN_LOCAL ←
12:24:49 <ericP> ( PN_CHARS_U | [0-9] ) ( ( PN_CHARS | "." )* PN_CHARS )?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ( PN_CHARS_U | [0-9] ) ( ( PN_CHARS | "." )* PN_CHARS )? ←
12:25:29 <gavinc> doesn't sparql/turtle also allow digits where NCName doesn't?
Gavin Carothers: doesn't sparql/turtle also allow digits where NCName doesn't? ←
12:25:48 <pchampin> peter: [detailed account of the differences btw SPARQL and Turtle re qnames]
Peter Patel-Schneider: [detailed account of the differences btw SPARQL and Turtle re qnames] ←
12:26:19 <ericP> gavinc, yes it does. NCName prohibits leading digits in the localname
Eric Prud'hommeaux: gavinc, yes it does. NCName prohibits leading digits in the localname ←
12:26:58 <pchampin> david: remark that neither SPARQL nor Turtle refere to the definition of QNames
David Wood: remark that neither SPARQL nor Turtle refere to the definition of QNames ←
12:27:12 <pchampin> which is restricted by the XML syntax
which is restricted by the XML syntax ←
12:27:52 <pchampin> guus: who objects to copying the SPARQL definition into turtle?
Guus Schreiber: who objects to copying the SPARQL definition into turtle? ←
12:28:12 <pchampin> ivan: bringing them as close as possible is a good thing
Ivan Herman: bringing them as close as possible is a good thing ←
12:28:24 <zwu2> keep things consistent is good
Zhe Wu: keep things consistent is good ←
12:28:32 <LeeF> We got very strong comments from life sciences folks before we made this change in SPARQL 1.0
Lee Feigenbaum: We got very strong comments from life sciences folks before we made this change in SPARQL 1.0 ←
12:28:37 <pchampin> sandro: I'm not fond of SPARQL identifiers, which are too persmissive re programming language identifiers
Sandro Hawke: I'm not fond of SPARQL identifiers, which are too persmissive re programming language identifiers ←
12:28:39 <danbri> q+ to ask i18n/l18n concerns
Dan Brickley: q+ to ask i18n/l18n concerns ←
12:28:43 <LeeF> I can find those comments if that would be useful to anyone
Lee Feigenbaum: I can find those comments if that would be useful to anyone ←
12:28:51 <gavinc> so does RDF/XML
Gavin Carothers: so does RDF/XML ←
12:28:53 <pchampin> s/persimissive/permissive/
s/persimissive/permissive/ (warning: replacement failed) ←
12:28:59 <gavinc> Javascript doesn't
Gavin Carothers: Javascript doesn't ←
12:29:21 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
12:29:27 <pchampin> peter: anyway, SPARQL and Turtle accept unicode characters, so most programming languages are waaay behind already
Peter Patel-Schneider: anyway, SPARQL and Turtle accept unicode characters, so most programming languages are waaay behind already ←
12:29:56 <danbri> http://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/%EC%95%94%EC%8A%A4%ED%85%8C%EB%A5%B4%EB%8B%B4
Dan Brickley: http://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/%EC%95%94%EC%8A%A4%ED%85%8C%EB%A5%B4%EB%8B%B4 ←
12:29:57 <LeeF> ACTION-29: See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2011AprJun/0044.html
Lee Feigenbaum: ACTION-29: See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2011AprJun/0044.html ←
12:29:58 <trackbot> ACTION-29 Convey our resoltuon on ISSUE-18 to SPARQL WG notes added
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-29 Convey our resoltuon on ISSUE-18 to SPARQL WG notes added ←
12:30:14 <danbri> vs http://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/암스테르담
Dan Brickley: vs http://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/암스테르담 ←
12:30:26 <danbri> vs kowiki:암스테르담
Dan Brickley: vs kowiki:암스테르담 ←
12:30:33 <gavinc> heh, yeah, don't do that.
Gavin Carothers: heh, yeah, don't do that. ←
12:31:01 <pchampin> cygri: I would not be surprised that programming language have different restrictions, anyway
Richard Cyganiak: I would not be surprised that programming language have different restrictions, anyway ←
12:31:01 <gavinc> having just written a python library it ended badly. Way better off using object['blah'] notation for RDF
Gavin Carothers: having just written a python library it ended badly. Way better off using object['blah'] notation for RDF ←
12:31:38 <pchampin> danbri: aren't we hindering i18n here?
Dan Brickley: aren't we hindering i18n here? ←
12:31:39 <danbri> q-
Dan Brickley: q- ←
12:31:47 <pchampin> ivan: no, we are extending the space of legal things
Ivan Herman: no, we are extending the space of legal things ←
12:32:28 <davidwood> LeeF: right. Thanks.
Lee Feigenbaum: right. Thanks. [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ] ←
12:32:31 <sandro> PROPOSED: Allow dots inside local part of qnames in Turtle, aligning with SPARQL syntax
PROPOSED: Allow dots inside local part of qnames in Turtle, aligning with SPARQL syntax ←
12:33:32 <davidwood> [99] PN_PREFIX ::= PN_CHARS_BASE ((PN_CHARS|'.')* PN_CHARS)?
David Wood: [99] PN_PREFIX ::= PN_CHARS_BASE ((PN_CHARS|'.')* PN_CHARS)? ←
12:33:49 <davidwood> (from SPARQL)
David Wood: (from SPARQL) ←
12:33:50 <sandro> +0 (I like having qnames line up with legal field names in programming languages)
Sandro Hawke: +0 (I like having qnames line up with legal field names in programming languages) ←
12:34:01 <LeeF> +1
Lee Feigenbaum: +1 ←
12:34:03 <cygri> +1 to do what sparql does
Richard Cyganiak: +1 to do what sparql does ←
12:34:04 <ericP> +1 (i've given up)
Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 (i've given up) ←
12:34:05 <cmatheus> +1
Christopher Matheus: +1 ←
12:34:07 <sandro> PROPOSED: Allow dots inside local part and namespace part of qnames in Turtle, aligning with SPARQL syntax
PROPOSED: Allow dots inside local part and namespace part of qnames in Turtle, aligning with SPARQL syntax ←
12:34:07 <zwu2> +1
12:34:08 <gavinc> +1
Gavin Carothers: +1 ←
12:34:16 <pfps> +1
12:34:18 <mbrunati> +1
Matteo Brunati: +1 ←
12:34:19 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
12:34:19 <pchampin> pchampin: +1
12:34:20 <NickH> 0 (as a ruby user)
Nicholas Humfrey: 0 (as a ruby user) ←
12:34:24 <sandro> +0 (I like having qnames line up with legal field names in programming languages)
Sandro Hawke: +0 (I like having qnames line up with legal field names in programming languages) ←
12:34:29 <FabGandon> +1
Fabien Gandon: +1 ←
12:35:03 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
12:35:07 <yvesr> +1
Yves Raimond: +1 ←
12:35:16 <sandro> RESOLVED: Allow dots inside local part and namespace part of qnames in Turtle, aligning with SPARQL syntax
RESOLVED: Allow dots inside local part and namespace part of qnames in Turtle, aligning with SPARQL syntax ←
12:35:31 <danbri> (so kowiki:암스테르담 is ok?)
Dan Brickley: (so kowiki:암스테르담 is ok?) ←
12:35:41 <gavinc> Yes.
Gavin Carothers: Yes. ←
12:35:41 <ericP> ✔
12:36:15 <pchampin> steve: continuing on issue-1: features
Steve Harris: continuing on ISSUE-1: features ←
12:36:19 <ww> +0.5 belatedly
William Waites: +0.5 belatedly ←
12:36:21 <mischat> who wants to add more features to turtle ?
Mischa Tuffield: who wants to add more features to turtle ? ←
12:36:32 <pchampin> stick to the feature-set in submission?
stick to the feature-set in submission? ←
12:36:47 <LeeF> I think these ought to be different discussions.
Lee Feigenbaum: I think these ought to be different discussions. ←
12:36:50 <gavinc> -1 to adding features +0 to TriG as part of Turtle
Gavin Carothers: -1 to adding features +0 to TriG as part of Turtle ←
12:36:54 <pchampin> or add more: quads? inverse paths? equals? more sugar?
or add more: quads? inverse paths? equals? more sugar? ←
12:37:03 <LeeF> Discussion #1: Is Turtle extended to handle named graphs?
Lee Feigenbaum: Discussion #1: Is Turtle extended to handle named graphs? ←
12:37:07 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/diagrams/n3/venn for visual purposes
Mischa Tuffield: http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/diagrams/n3/venn for visual purposes ←
12:37:15 <LeeF> Discussion #2: Does Turtle have other features from N3, elsewhere?
Lee Feigenbaum: Discussion #2: Does Turtle have other features from N3, elsewhere? ←
12:37:47 <pchampin> yves: does this have implications like property paths?
Yves Raimond: does this have implications like property paths? ←
12:37:53 <davidwood> gavinc: "-1" is a formal objection. Is that your intent?
Gavin Carothers: "-1" is a formal objection. Is that your intent? [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ] ←
12:37:57 <LeeF> mischat, that diagram is great, thanks.
Lee Feigenbaum: mischat, that diagram is great, thanks. ←
12:37:58 <gavinc> mmm
Gavin Carothers: mmm ←
12:38:08 <gavinc> No.
Gavin Carothers: No. ←
12:38:09 <pchampin> ivan: I'm scared by these questions
Ivan Herman: I'm scared by these questions ←
12:38:11 <LeeF> mischat, It's missing "is ... of ... ", right?
Lee Feigenbaum: mischat, It's missing "is ... of ... ", right? ←
12:38:11 <gavinc> -0?
Gavin Carothers: -0? ←
12:38:25 <Guus> q+
Guus Schreiber: q+ ←
12:38:26 <sandro> yeah, gavinc
Sandro Hawke: yeah, gavinc ←
12:38:27 <pchampin> would require a lot of rewriting in deployed parsers
would require a lot of rewriting in deployed parsers ←
12:38:27 <NickH> has anyone implemented any extra features in their turtle parser?
Nicholas Humfrey: has anyone implemented any extra features in their turtle parser? ←
12:38:38 <yvesr> i was thinking of :a foaf:knows/foaf:lnows :b <=> :a foaf:knows _:c . _:c foaf:knows :b
Yves Raimond: i was thinking of :a foaf:knows/foaf:lnows :b <=> :a foaf:knows _:c . _:c foaf:knows :b ←
12:38:38 <ww> i would like to see in turtle, = shorthand for owl:sameAs and trig means <graph> = { ... } where the = can be omitted for brevity
William Waites: i would like to see in turtle, = shorthand for owl:sameAs and trig means <graph> = { ... } where the = can be omitted for brevity ←
12:39:04 <ww> this preserves compatibility with trig and gives a path towards n3
William Waites: this preserves compatibility with trig and gives a path towards n3 ←
12:39:06 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call? ←
12:39:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see OlivierCorby, OlivierCorby.a, OlivierCorby.aa, OlivierCorby.aaa, gavinc, OlivierCorby.aaaa, Meeting_Room, zwu2, LeeF, EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see OlivierCorby, OlivierCorby.a, OlivierCorby.aa, OlivierCorby.aaa, gavinc, OlivierCorby.aaaa, Meeting_Room, zwu2, LeeF, EricP ←
12:39:14 <mischat> q?
Mischa Tuffield: q? ←
12:39:32 <pchampin> guus: we are likely to include a separate media type that extend turtle with named graphs
Guus Schreiber: we are likely to include a separate media type that extend turtle with named graphs ←
12:39:41 <davidwood> ack Guus
David Wood: ack Guus ←
12:39:46 <pchampin> what if we include any new feature in this new media type?
what if we include any new feature in this new media type? ←
12:39:53 <danbri> q+ to suggest we structure the HTML of the document to encourage re-use of productions from the turtle grammar
Dan Brickley: q+ to suggest we structure the HTML of the document to encourage re-use of productions from the turtle grammar ←
12:40:16 <pchampin> cygri: if we do that, this will drive most people to the multi-graph format just for the benefit of the other features
Richard Cyganiak: if we do that, this will drive most people to the multi-graph format just for the benefit of the other features ←
12:40:24 <pchampin> pchampin: +1 cygri
Pierre-Antoine Champin: +1 cygri ←
12:41:00 <sandro> steve: no requests for this stuff from 4store users
Steve Harris: no requests for this stuff from 4store users [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
12:42:05 <pchampin> mischa: people will have to rewrite turtle parsers anyway, re changes in prefix
Mischa Tuffield: people will have to rewrite turtle parsers anyway, re changes in prefix ←
12:42:22 <pchampin> ivan: but inverse paths are a much deeper change in the parser
Ivan Herman: but inverse paths are a much deeper change in the parser ←
12:43:32 <pchampin> danbri: sugar for inverse path is also in RDFa
Dan Brickley: sugar for inverse path is also in RDFa ←
12:43:35 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
12:43:43 <danbri> ack q?
Dan Brickley: ack q? ←
12:43:50 <danbri> ack danbri
Dan Brickley: ack danbri ←
12:43:50 <Zakim> danbri, you wanted to suggest we structure the HTML of the document to encourage re-use of productions from the turtle grammar
Zakim IRC Bot: danbri, you wanted to suggest we structure the HTML of the document to encourage re-use of productions from the turtle grammar ←
12:43:53 <davidwood> ack danbri
David Wood: ack danbri ←
12:44:37 <pchampin> danbri: basically SPARQL and Turtle are the same
Dan Brickley: basically SPARQL and Turtle are the same ←
12:44:50 <sandro> danbri: I'd like to see these features, but I don't think they need to be this Turtle spec.
Dan Brickley: I'd like to see these features, but I don't think they need to be this Turtle spec. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
12:45:59 <pchampin> guus: points out that the quad extension is a separate issue
Guus Schreiber: points out that the quad extension is a separate issue ←
12:46:36 <pchampin> it is a shame Nathan is not here to discuss the matter
it is a shame Nathan is not here to discuss the matter ←
12:46:48 <pchampin> we can phrase a resolution and put it on the agenda of the next telecon
we can phrase a resolution and put it on the agenda of the next telecon ←
12:47:28 <mischat> FabGandon: sorry, i don't know why that got in the diagram, and I don't really parse the "x!y^z paths", and i don't know much about n3 either
Fabien Gandon: sorry, i don't know why that got in the diagram, and I don't really parse the "x!y^z paths", and i don't know much about n3 either [ Scribe Assist by Mischa Tuffield ] ←
12:47:33 <sandro> PROPOSED: Our turtle will have the same feature-set as the submission (leaving out inverse paths, leaving out "=", and other N3 things)
PROPOSED: Our turtle will have the same feature-set as the submission (leaving out inverse paths, leaving out "=", and other N3 things) ←
12:48:59 <sandro> ISSUE: Do we need to add features to turtle, beyond what's in the Submission (such as inverse paths and =)?
ISSUE: Do we need to add features to turtle, beyond what's in the Submission (such as inverse paths and =)? ←
12:49:06 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-34 - Do we need to add features to turtle, beyond what's in the Submission (such as inverse paths and =)? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/34/edit .
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-34 - Do we need to add features to turtle, beyond what's in the Submission (such as inverse paths and =)? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/34/edit . ←
12:49:33 <sandro> Guus: This is NOT pre-judge solution to GRAPHs.
Guus Schreiber: This is NOT pre-judge solution to GRAPHs. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
12:49:52 <cygri> LeeF, I count 11 macs and 6 others in the room. scary!
Richard Cyganiak: LeeF, I count 11 macs and 6 others in the room. scary! ←
12:51:04 <sandro> action: guus put issue-34 on agenda for next time, proposed resolution "No"
ACTION: guus put ISSUE-34 on agenda for next time, proposed resolution "No" ←
12:51:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-30 - Put issue-34 on agenda for next time, proposed resolution "No" [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-04-20].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-30 - Put ISSUE-34 on agenda for next time, proposed resolution "No" [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-04-20]. ←
12:51:37 <pchampin> steve: syntaxes (issue4, 31etc)
Steve Harris: syntaxes (ISSUE-4, 31etc) ←
12:51:54 <mischat> sandro: perhaps moving the webcam to face the screen
Sandro Hawke: perhaps moving the webcam to face the screen [ Scribe Assist by Mischa Tuffield ] ←
12:52:08 <pchampin> triples+terse = turtle
triples+terse = turtle ←
12:52:19 <pchampin> triples+verbose = NTriples
triples+verbose = NTriples ←
12:52:34 <pchampin> quads+terse = trig,n3,sparql update,qurtle
quads+terse = trig,n3,sparql update,qurtle ←
12:52:36 <LeeF> triples+verbose = vertle, naturally
Lee Feigenbaum: triples+verbose = vertle, naturally ←
12:52:42 <pchampin> quad+verbose: NQuads
quad+verbose: NQuads ←
12:53:52 <pchampin> ivan: there is a non-trivial difference btw turtle and ntriples: the latter only accept ascii
Ivan Herman: there is a non-trivial difference btw turtle and ntriples: the latter only accept ascii ←
12:54:00 <danbri> grep '^quad' /usr/share/dict/words >>> http://pastebin.com/0Cas69pf
Dan Brickley: grep '^quad' /usr/share/dict/words >>> http://pastebin.com/0Cas69pf ←
12:54:41 <pchampin> guus: should we put in our spec what are the restrictions on NTriples
Guus Schreiber: should we put in our spec what are the restrictions on NTriples ←
12:54:48 <pchampin> as a section in the Turtle document
as a section in the Turtle document ←
12:55:08 <pchampin> steve: with a more rational media type than text/plain
Steve Harris: with a more rational media type than text/plain ←
12:55:46 <pchampin> cygri: I would argue to have a separate document, as they describe rather different formats
Richard Cyganiak: I would argue to have a separate document, as they describe rather different formats ←
12:55:46 <mischat> q+ about bnode serialisation and ordering of documents
Mischa Tuffield: q+ about bnode serialisation and ordering of documents ←
12:55:53 <pchampin> peter: I would argue against that
Peter Patel-Schneider: I would argue against that ←
12:56:13 <mischat> q+
Mischa Tuffield: q+ ←
12:56:47 <pchampin> we would have too many documents
we would have too many documents ←
12:57:01 <pchampin> cygri: with RDFa and JSON, we will have multiple documents anyway
Richard Cyganiak: with RDFa and JSON, we will have multiple documents anyway ←
12:57:17 <pchampin> ivan: what problem are we trying to solve here?
Ivan Herman: what problem are we trying to solve here? ←
12:57:37 <pchampin> ntriples has been around for some time? in a W3C recommendation?
ntriples has been around for some time? in a W3C recommendation? ←
12:57:43 <pchampin> what do we need to fix?
what do we need to fix? ←
12:58:02 <sandro> cygri: if I google for N-Triples, I end up in the wrong place.
Richard Cyganiak: if I google for N-Triples, I end up in the wrong place. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
12:58:15 <danbri> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/ntriples/ is 1st hit, and it says 'PLEASE NOTE: This document has been superceded by the RDF Test Cases Working Draft. See N-Triples for more information.'
Dan Brickley: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/ntriples/ is 1st hit, and it says 'PLEASE NOTE: This document has been superceded by the RDF Test Cases Working Draft. See N-Triples for more information.' ←
12:58:50 <zwu2> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-testcases/#ntriples
Zhe Wu: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-testcases/#ntriples ←
12:59:13 <pchampin> guus: for the purpose of editing the recommendation, it makes more sense to have ntriples as an appendix of turtle
Guus Schreiber: for the purpose of editing the recommendation, it makes more sense to have ntriples as an appendix of turtle ←
12:59:34 <pchampin> we can also have an ntriple primer pointing to that appendix
we can also have an ntriple primer pointing to that appendix ←
12:59:55 <pchampin> ivan: from what Richard said, this is just an editorial issue, so postpone
Ivan Herman: from what Richard said, this is just an editorial issue, so postpone ←
13:00:31 <pchampin> danbri: who greps ntriple on a daily basis
Dan Brickley: who greps ntriple on a daily basis ←
13:00:40 <pchampin> quite a few hands raise
quite a few hands raise ←
13:01:12 <pchampin> steve; and gets bitten by the fact that it is suppose to be ascii, and is often utf8 in practice
steve; and gets bitten by the fact that it is suppose to be ascii, and is often utf8 in practice ←
13:02:02 <danbri> aside re naming -- I've googled all the words that begin ^quad; nothing great. Trying with ^trip -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triplex is interesting (lots of meanings but none clash)
Dan Brickley: aside re naming -- I've googled all the words that begin ^quad; nothing great. Trying with ^trip -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triplex is interesting (lots of meanings but none clash) ←
13:03:34 <ericP> +1 to deprecating ntriples
Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 to deprecating ntriples ←
13:03:57 <pchampin> paul: if we redefine ntriples as a subset of turtle, don't all those issues disappear?
Paul Groth: if we redefine ntriples as a subset of turtle, don't all those issues disappear? ←
13:04:39 <davidwood> ack mischat
David Wood: ack mischat ←
13:04:41 <pchampin> steve: yes, mostly
Steve Harris: yes, mostly ←
13:04:42 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/N-Triples-Format
Mischa Tuffield: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/N-Triples-Format ←
13:04:47 <mischat> cygri: ^^ ?
Richard Cyganiak: ^^ ? [ Scribe Assist by Mischa Tuffield ] ←
13:04:52 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/N-Triples-Format
Richard Cyganiak: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/N-Triples-Format ←
13:04:59 <cygri> oh thanks mischat
Richard Cyganiak: oh thanks mischat ←
13:05:02 <zwu2> -1 to changes to ntriples
Zhe Wu: -1 to changes to ntriples ←
13:05:16 <cygri> zwu2: including not defining a media type for it?
Zhe Wu: including not defining a media type for it? [ Scribe Assist by Richard Cyganiak ] ←
13:05:30 <zwu2> q+
13:06:09 <pchampin> zwu2: we will officially object any change to ntriples
Zhe Wu: we will officially object any change to ntriples ←
13:06:18 <danbri> maybe the issue here is 'change'
Dan Brickley: maybe the issue here is 'change' ←
13:06:41 <pchampin> david: are you parsing ntriples in ascii? are you sure?
David Wood: are you parsing ntriples in ascii? are you sure? ←
13:07:16 <mischat> on the wiki page above ^^
Mischa Tuffield: on the wiki page above ^^ ←
13:07:28 <zwu2> ack zwu2
13:07:33 <pchampin> danbri thinks ntriples-is-ntriples; whatever this group does is ... the next thing
danbri thinks ntriples-is-ntriples; whatever this group does is ... the next thing ←
13:07:37 <davidwood> zwu2 confirmed that they would formally object to a change in ntriples
David Wood: zwu2 confirmed that they would formally object to a change in ntriples ←
13:07:39 <ivan> q?
Ivan Herman: q? ←
13:07:41 <zwu2> q-
13:07:43 <sandro> maybe leave N-Triples alone and define "Line-Mode Turtle" as the relevant Turtle subset?
Sandro Hawke: maybe leave N-Triples alone and define "Line-Mode Turtle" as the relevant Turtle subset? ←
13:08:01 <davidwood> Guus would prefer not to do that...
David Wood: Guus would prefer not to do that... ←
13:08:09 <pchampin> steve: about the second line (quads + terse/verbose)
Steve Harris: about the second line (quads + terse/verbose) ←
13:08:24 <gavinc> n-quads too!
Gavin Carothers: n-quads too! ←
13:08:37 <pchampin> there are a lot of turtle-like languages for quads
there are a lot of turtle-like languages for quads ←
13:09:01 <pchampin> ivan: sparql update?
Ivan Herman: sparql update? ←
13:09:26 <pchampin> steve: yes, sparql update allows you to express graphs that ends up being stored, so it is a serialization syntax of its own
Steve Harris: yes, sparql update allows you to express graphs that ends up being stored, so it is a serialization syntax of its own ←
13:10:44 <Zakim> +??P26
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P26 ←
13:10:45 <pchampin> guus: iirc, richard argued agains having qurtle and turtle defined in the same document
Guus Schreiber: iirc, richard argued agains having qurtle and turtle defined in the same document ←
13:11:32 <pchampin> cygri: as discussed this morning, if turtle is extended with quads, this will have major impact on implementation
Richard Cyganiak: as discussed this morning, if turtle is extended with quads, this will have major impact on implementation ←
13:11:49 <pchampin> so qurtle (or anything) needs a separate media type and a separate document
so qurtle (or anything) needs a separate media type and a separate document ←
13:11:52 <LeeF> +1 to keeping graph serialization separate from turtle
Lee Feigenbaum: +1 to keeping graph serialization separate from turtle ←
13:13:01 <pchampin> peter: I would prefer people consuming turtle to be ready to consume quads, though I don't expect agreement on that
Peter Patel-Schneider: I would prefer people consuming turtle to be ready to consume quads, though I don't expect agreement on that ←
13:13:10 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
13:14:09 <pchampin> paul: we are moving from a specification with triples to a specification with quads
Paul Groth: we are moving from a specification with triples to a specification with quads ←
13:14:22 <gavinc> -1 to a turtle media type document containing more then one graph +0 to the ONLY difference being the media type
Gavin Carothers: -1 to a turtle media type document containing more then one graph +0 to the ONLY difference being the media type ←
13:14:26 <pchampin> so why not including quads in next-turtle
so why not including quads in next-turtle ←
13:15:35 <gavinc> Not very worried about HTTP GET, a bit more worried about HTTP POST/PUT
Gavin Carothers: Not very worried about HTTP GET, a bit more worried about HTTP POST/PUT ←
13:16:30 <pchampin> steve: what if you crawl untrusted documents, and they contain named graphs?
Steve Harris: what if you crawl untrusted documents, and they contain named graphs? ←
13:17:03 <pchampin> naming the graph with a URI that you care about
naming the graph with a URI that you care about ←
13:17:53 <pchampin> danbri: I can answer from an experience
Dan Brickley: I can answer from an experience ←
13:18:09 <pchampin> I took some examples about provenance
I took some examples about provenance ←
13:18:26 <pchampin> converted it to quads
converted it to quads ←
13:18:28 <gavinc> http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-http-rdf-update/#graph-management if the representation contains more then one graph, exactly what to do with these updates becomes very strange.
Gavin Carothers: http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-http-rdf-update/#graph-management if the representation contains more then one graph, exactly what to do with these updates becomes very strange. ←
13:19:33 <webr3> if you put quads or ng's on the web for follow your nose, then I need a 5-tuple store (then if you put that online, will need 6-tuples, etc)
Nathan Rixham: if you put quads or ng's on the web for follow your nose, then I need a 5-tuple store (then if you put that online, will need 6-tuples, etc) ←
13:19:43 <pchampin> then was quite confused about the way to consume them,
then was quite confused about the way to consume them, ←
13:20:18 <mischat> <snap> gavinc
Mischa Tuffield: <snap> nathan ←
13:20:22 <danbri> I made some tests with rdfa+@graph, see http://svn.foaf-project.org/foaftown/2010/prov/surf3.html http://svn.foaf-project.org/foaftown/2010/prov/ ... it's pretty confusing to get a sane processing model
Dan Brickley: I made some tests with rdfa+@graph, see http://svn.foaf-project.org/foaftown/2010/prov/surf3.html http://svn.foaf-project.org/foaftown/2010/prov/ ... it's pretty confusing to get a sane processing model ←
13:20:26 <mischat> s/gavinc/nathan/
13:20:27 <pchampin> as if the blog says 'this comes from the NYT', I don't want to credit the NYT with it
as if the blog says 'this comes from the NYT', I don't want to credit the NYT with it ←
13:20:27 <mischat> sorry
Mischa Tuffield: sorry ←
13:20:36 <danbri> ( parser output http://svn.foaf-project.org/foaftown/2010/prov/_output.txt )
Dan Brickley: ( parser output http://svn.foaf-project.org/foaftown/2010/prov/_output.txt ) ←
13:22:17 <pchampin> steve: the rest of the slides is about sub-details of all the above
Steve Harris: the rest of the slides is about sub-details of all the above ←
13:23:08 <pchampin> Note that NQuads is not strictly a subset of anything else.
Note that NQuads is not strictly a subset of anything else. ←
13:23:15 <LeeF> N-Quads can't serialize empty graphs.
Lee Feigenbaum: N-Quads can't serialize empty graphs. ←
13:23:57 <LeeF> Or if it can, I'd like to see how?
Lee Feigenbaum: Or if it can, I'd like to see how? ←
13:24:42 <pchampin> peter: you can state that <uri> a :EmptyGraph
Peter Patel-Schneider: you can state that <uri> a :EmptyGraph ←
13:24:45 <webr3> empty graph is just <x> a Graph . surely, you know you have a graph, and a name for it, but nothing else
Nathan Rixham: empty graph is just <x> a Graph . surely, you know you have a graph, and a name for it, but nothing else ←
13:25:20 <pchampin> ivan: back to NQuads, there is a broken symetry here
Ivan Herman: back to NQuads, there is a broken symetry here ←
13:25:41 <sandro> not at all web3r. Knowing a graph is empty is quite different from not knowing whether it is empty.
Sandro Hawke: not at all web3r. Knowing a graph is empty is quite different from not knowing whether it is empty. ←
13:26:03 <webr3> good point
Nathan Rixham: good point ←
13:26:11 <gavinc> Open World ;) No it isn't
Gavin Carothers: Open World ;) No it isn't ←
13:26:19 <pchampin> cygri: Trig and NQuads basically reuse a big part of Turtle (terms) and adds a few production rules around them.
Richard Cyganiak: Trig and NQuads basically reuse a big part of Turtle (terms) and adds a few production rules around them. ←
13:26:24 <webr3> double good point lol
Nathan Rixham: double good point lol ←
13:27:27 <pchampin> cygri: I don't think it is essential to many people that NTriples is a subset of turtle; same for NQuads
Richard Cyganiak: I don't think it is essential to many people that NTriples is a subset of turtle; same for NQuads ←
13:28:17 <gavinc> Binary RDF!! Bring it on!
Gavin Carothers: Binary RDF!! Bring it on! ←
13:28:18 <pchampin> paul: the absence of symetry makes it harder to teach
Paul Groth: the absence of symetry makes it harder to teach ←
13:28:32 <LeeF> Is N-Quads in current use?
Lee Feigenbaum: Is N-Quads in current use? ←
13:28:35 <pchampin> cygri: we have a lot of things on the table that make it even harder to teach
Richard Cyganiak: we have a lot of things on the table that make it even harder to teach ←
13:28:41 <LeeF> Or do we have flexibility to (re-)define it?
Lee Feigenbaum: Or do we have flexibility to (re-)define it? ←
13:28:55 <zwu2> yes, Oracle is using n-quads
Zhe Wu: yes, Oracle is using n-quads ←
13:28:59 <LeeF> zwu2, thanks
Lee Feigenbaum: zwu2, thanks ←
13:29:05 <gavinc> Yes, TopQuadrant is using N-Quads
Gavin Carothers: Yes, TopQuadrant is using N-Quads ←
13:30:09 <pchampin> mischat: NQuads is very easy to parse and generate,
Mischa Tuffield: NQuads is very easy to parse and generate, ←
13:30:30 <pchampin> while most Trig parsers I have tried do not work well with big files
while most Trig parsers I have tried do not work well with big files ←
13:30:46 <gavinc> Where "big" is tiny
Gavin Carothers: Where "big" is tiny ←
13:30:59 <zwu2> +1 to mischat
13:31:14 <LeeF> We work pretty regularly with large TriG files, without much difficulty.
Lee Feigenbaum: We work pretty regularly with large TriG files, without much difficulty. ←
13:31:55 <gavinc> Lee, 60 million+ triples?
Gavin Carothers: Lee, 60 million+ triples? ←
13:32:17 <gavinc> well, quads ;)
Gavin Carothers: well, quads ;) ←
13:32:24 <LeeF> I think it's a mistake to just do N-Quads. There is real value to human-convenient syntax. We've seen that over and over with turtle (vis a vis N-triples). I don't think it's any different for quads.
Lee Feigenbaum: I think it's a mistake to just do N-Quads. There is real value to human-convenient syntax. We've seen that over and over with turtle (vis a vis N-triples). I don't think it's any different for quads. ←
13:32:53 <LeeF> gavinc, yes, I believe so, though I can ask around for particular details
Lee Feigenbaum: gavinc, yes, I believe so, though I can ask around for particular details ←
13:32:54 <pchampin> cygri: the SPARQL document manages to describe datasets without a standard syntax
Richard Cyganiak: the SPARQL document manages to describe datasets without a standard syntax ←
13:34:29 <pchampin> guus: by avoiding the quads+terse box, we lose symetry, but we normalize what is already out there
Guus Schreiber: by avoiding the quads+terse box, we lose symetry, but we normalize what is already out there ←
13:35:34 <cygri> A tree with Turtle as the root, and three children "TriG/SPARQL Update", "N-Triples", "N-Quads"
Richard Cyganiak: A tree with Turtle as the root, and three children "TriG/SPARQL Update", "N-Triples", "N-Quads" ←
13:36:07 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
13:37:10 <pchampin> steve: SPARQL update is very similar to TriG, except it has keyword GRAPH in front of the graph URI
Steve Harris: SPARQL update is very similar to TriG, except it has keyword GRAPH in front of the graph URI ←
13:38:57 <mischat> mailing list
Mischa Tuffield: mailing list ←
13:39:13 <webr3> can you do anything with one that you cannot do with the other? (re trig/n-quads)
Nathan Rixham: can you do anything with one that you cannot do with the other? (re trig/n-quads) ←
13:39:35 <gavinc> Yes, a human can read and write TriG ;)
Gavin Carothers: Yes, a human can read and write TriG ;) ←
13:39:42 <SteveH> "Turtle should remain as a syntax only for Triples, some other syntax should be defined to represent quad data"
Steve Harris: "Turtle should remain as a syntax only for Triples, some other syntax should be defined to represent quad data" ←
13:39:45 <LeeF> gavinc++
Lee Feigenbaum: gavinc++ ←
13:40:17 <gavinc> You can also do horrible things with awk and sort to N-Quads ;)
Gavin Carothers: You can also do horrible things with awk and sort to N-Quads ;) ←
13:40:22 <yvesr> :)
Yves Raimond: :) ←
13:41:02 <mischat> http://mmt.me.uk/misc/photo.JPG
Mischa Tuffield: http://mmt.me.uk/misc/photo.JPG ←
13:41:04 <pchampin> PROPOSED: Turtle should remain as a syntax only for Triples, some other syntax should be defined to represent quad data
PROPOSED: Turtle should remain as a syntax only for Triples, some other syntax should be defined to represent quad data ←
13:41:09 <webr3> +1
Nathan Rixham: +1 ←
13:41:11 <cygri> +1
Richard Cyganiak: +1 ←
13:41:11 <yvesr> +1
Yves Raimond: +1 ←
13:41:11 <LeeF> +1
Lee Feigenbaum: +1 ←
13:41:11 <gavinc> ++1
Gavin Carothers: ++1 ←
13:41:15 <zwu2> +1
13:41:16 <SteveH> +1
Steve Harris: +1 ←
13:41:16 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
13:41:17 <mischat> +!
Mischa Tuffield: +! ←
13:41:17 <mbrunati> +1
Matteo Brunati: +1 ←
13:41:19 <sandro> +0
Sandro Hawke: +0 ←
13:41:19 <mischat> +1
Mischa Tuffield: +1 ←
13:41:20 <ericP> ⧺1
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ⧺1 ←
13:41:21 <pfps> 0
13:41:23 <FabGandon> +1
Fabien Gandon: +1 ←
13:41:23 <NickH> +1
Nicholas Humfrey: +1 ←
13:41:24 <pchampin> pchampin: +1
13:41:24 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
13:41:24 <cmatheus> +0
Christopher Matheus: +0 ←
13:41:27 <danbri> +1
Dan Brickley: +1 ←
13:41:36 <sandro> really -0
Sandro Hawke: really -0 ←
13:41:47 <sandro> (I prefer one syntax with graph literals or something)
Sandro Hawke: (I prefer one syntax with graph literals or something) ←
13:41:47 <JFB> +1
Jean-François Baget: +1 ←
13:41:56 <ericP> ⧻1 ?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ⧻1 ? ←
13:42:06 <webr3> sandro, +1, n3 like though, not quad like for me
Nathan Rixham: sandro, +1, n3 like though, not quad like for me ←
13:42:24 <gavinc> (Yes)
Gavin Carothers: (Yes) ←
13:42:29 <sandro> <http://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/> foaf:hates sandro:ericP.
Sandro Hawke: <http://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/> foaf:hates sandro:ericP. ←
13:43:14 <zwu2> nice conference room
Zhe Wu: nice conference room ←
13:43:22 <pchampin> ivan: before we take a break and go to JSON,
Ivan Herman: before we take a break and go to JSON, ←
13:43:36 <pchampin> I would like to talk about the documentation style of Turtle
I would like to talk about the documentation style of Turtle ←
13:43:56 <pchampin> about which Peter and Erik disagreed longly
about which Peter and EricP disagreed longly ←
13:44:24 <mischat> s/Erik/EricP/
13:44:26 <davidwood> s/Erik/Eric/
13:44:26 <ericP> i'm sympathetic to pfps's debugging point
Eric Prud'hommeaux: i'm sympathetic to pfps's debugging point ←
13:44:29 <pchampin> guus: as it is an editorial problem, I think we can postpone it
Guus Schreiber: as it is an editorial problem, I think we can postpone it ←
13:44:31 <gavinc> 15 minutes?
Gavin Carothers: 15 minutes? ←
13:44:38 <cygri> 20min
Richard Cyganiak: 20min ←
13:44:45 <mischat> manu1: json stuff when we get back
Manu Sporny: json stuff when we get back [ Scribe Assist by Mischa Tuffield ] ←
13:44:47 <mischat> in 20 mins
Mischa Tuffield: in 20 mins ←
13:45:29 <Zakim> -OlivierCorby.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: -OlivierCorby.aaaa ←
13:46:09 <manu> zakim, code?
Manu Sporny: zakim, code? ←
13:46:09 <Zakim> the conference code is 733941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), manu
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 733941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), manu ←
13:46:11 <Zakim> -LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: -LeeF ←
13:46:11 <Zakim> -zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2 ←
13:46:23 <Zakim> +??P1
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P1 ←
13:46:30 <Zakim> -??P26
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P26 ←
13:46:31 <Zakim> -EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: -EricP ←
13:46:38 <manu> zakim, I am ??P1
Manu Sporny: zakim, I am ??P1 ←
13:46:38 <Zakim> +manu; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +manu; got it ←
13:53:50 <NickH> eavesdropping!
(No events recorded for 7 minutes)
Nicholas Humfrey: eavesdropping! ←
14:03:21 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
(No events recorded for 9 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
14:03:26 <webr3> zakim, i am IPcaller
Nathan Rixham: zakim, i am IPcaller ←
14:03:26 <Zakim> ok, webr3, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, webr3, I now associate you with [IPcaller] ←
14:04:34 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aahh
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.603.897.aahh ←
14:05:05 <Zakim> +zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2 ←
14:05:19 <Zakim> +PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH ←
14:05:23 <gavinc> Yes, yes they do. Have we ALL used that for Triple stores now? :D
Gavin Carothers: Yes, yes they do. Have we ALL used that for Triple stores now? :D ←
14:05:51 <webr3> those ec2 gpu powered instances are awesome
Nathan Rixham: those ec2 gpu powered instances are awesome ←
14:06:07 <gavinc> Intels new cpu supports 256 GB of ram :D
Gavin Carothers: Intels new cpu supports 256 GB of ram :D ←
14:06:15 <webr3> manu, outpace this: http://aws.amazon.com/about-aws/whats-new/2010/11/15/announcing-cluster-gpu-instances-for-amazon-ec2/
Nathan Rixham: manu, outpace this: http://aws.amazon.com/about-aws/whats-new/2010/11/15/announcing-cluster-gpu-instances-for-amazon-ec2/ ←
14:07:29 <pfps> topic: JSON task force
14:07:39 <Zakim> +LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: +LeeF ←
14:08:28 <sandro> scribe: NickH
(Scribe set to Nicholas Humfrey)
14:08:44 <NickH> matteo: has been tracking the disussions using a mind map
Matteo Brunati: has been tracking the disussions using a mind map ←
14:08:49 <mischat> do we have a link to the slides ?
Mischa Tuffield: do we have a link to the slides ? ←
14:09:13 <NickH> slides are not currently on the web
slides are not currently on the web ←
14:09:49 <sandro> zakim, list attendees
Sandro Hawke: zakim, list attendees ←
14:09:49 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +1.707.861.aaaa, gavinc, +1.404.978.aabb, tomayac, +31.20.592.aacc, +33.4.92.38.aadd, OlivierCorby, AZ, David, Wood, Sandro, Mateo, Steve,
Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been +1.707.861.aaaa, gavinc, +1.404.978.aabb, tomayac, +31.20.592.aacc, +33.4.92.38.aadd, OlivierCorby, AZ, David, Wood, Sandro, Mateo, Steve, ←
14:09:51 <NickH> matteo is mailing the slides now
matteo is mailing the slides now ←
14:09:53 <Zakim> ... Harris, Fabien, Pierre, Antoine, Cygri, Yves, Nick, Jean-François, Jan, PFPS, Paul, Groth, Chris, Matheus, Dan, Brickley, Misha, Tuffield, Ivan, +1.408.642.aaff, zwu2,
Zakim IRC Bot: ... Harris, Fabien, Pierre, Antoine, Cygri, Yves, Nick, Jean-François, Jan, PFPS, Paul, Groth, Chris, Matheus, Dan, Brickley, Misha, Tuffield, Ivan, +1.408.642.aaff, zwu2, ←
14:09:55 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call? ←
14:09:55 <Zakim> ... mischat, Meeting_Room, +1.617.553.aagg, LeeF, EricP, manu, [IPcaller], +1.603.897.aahh, PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: ... mischat, Meeting_Room, +1.617.553.aagg, LeeF, EricP, manu, [IPcaller], +1.603.897.aahh, PatH ←
14:09:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see manu, [IPcaller], +1.603.897.aahh, zwu2, PatH, LeeF, OlivierCorby, OlivierCorby.a, OlivierCorby.aa, OlivierCorby.aaa, gavinc, Meeting_Room
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see manu, [IPcaller], +1.603.897.aahh, zwu2, PatH, LeeF, OlivierCorby, OlivierCorby.a, OlivierCorby.aa, OlivierCorby.aaa, gavinc, Meeting_Room ←
14:12:02 <NickH> matteo: there are two presentations, the second presentation is Thomas's one
Matteo Brunati: there are two presentations, the second presentation is Thomas's one ←
14:13:04 <NickH> matteo: has made a timeline from the start of the discussions (slide 4)
Matteo Brunati: has made a timeline from the start of the discussions (slide 4) ←
14:13:08 <zwu2> Did matteo send out slides to the wg mailing list?
Zhe Wu: Did matteo send out slides to the wg mailing list? ←
14:14:09 <cygri> slides attached here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Apr/0303.html
Richard Cyganiak: slides attached here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Apr/0303.html ←
14:14:23 <NickH> matteo: on the 6th of march manu produced the JSON design requirements
Matteo Brunati: on the 6th of march manu produced the JSON design requirements ←
14:14:24 <zwu2> thanks
14:14:41 <NickH> matteo: there were two main reactions
Matteo Brunati: there were two main reactions ←
14:15:03 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/JSON_Syntax_Options
Mischa Tuffield: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/JSON_Syntax_Options ←
14:16:01 <NickH> 1. make a simple way to transform JSON objects into RDF
1. make a simple way to transform JSON objects into RDF ←
14:16:07 <Zakim> +Ronald
Zakim IRC Bot: +Ronald ←
14:16:19 <NickH> 2. to provide an RDF serialisation in JSON
2. to provide an RDF serialisation in JSON ←
14:16:23 <AZ> Zakim, Ronald is me
Antoine Zimmermann: Zakim, Ronald is me ←
14:16:23 <Zakim> +AZ; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ; got it ←
14:16:29 <manu> zakim, mute Ronald
Manu Sporny: zakim, mute Ronald ←
14:16:29 <Zakim> sorry, manu, I do not know which phone connection belongs to Ronald
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, manu, I do not know which phone connection belongs to Ronald ←
14:16:29 <AZ> zakim, mute me
Antoine Zimmermann: zakim, mute me ←
14:16:30 <Zakim> AZ should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: AZ should now be muted ←
14:16:36 <cygri> zakim, mute them all
Richard Cyganiak: zakim, mute them all ←
14:16:36 <Zakim> I don't understand 'mute them all', cygri
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'mute them all', cygri ←
14:17:17 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/JSON_User_Segments
Mischa Tuffield: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/JSON_User_Segments ←
14:17:22 <mischat> json market segments ^^
Mischa Tuffield: json user segments ^^ ←
14:17:28 <mischat> s/market/user/
14:18:31 <NickH> matteo: there was a Seperate Call for the JSON Taskforce
Matteo Brunati: there was a Seperate Call for the JSON Taskforce ←
14:18:56 <NickH> matteo: and separented the examples into two main groups
Matteo Brunati: and separented the examples into two main groups ←
14:19:03 <NickH> 1. Government/Enterprice
1. Government/Enterprice ←
14:19:15 <NickH> 2. Independent Web Developer
2. Independent Web Developer ←
14:19:42 <mischat> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Mar/0556.html <-- elephant in the room thread
Mischa Tuffield: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Mar/0556.html <-- elephant in the room thread ←
14:19:51 <NickH> matteo: At the end of the March there was an interesting discussion on the mailing list about 'What *is* JSON'
Matteo Brunati: At the end of the March there was an interesting discussion on the mailing list about 'What *is* JSON' ←
14:21:40 <cygri> Souri, the webcam can't zoom ... the slides are here, in an attachment: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Apr/0303.html
Richard Cyganiak: Souri, the webcam can't zoom ... the slides are here, in an attachment: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Apr/0303.html ←
14:23:35 <NickH> matteo: (slide 5) looking at the existing work on JSON
Matteo Brunati: (slide 5) looking at the existing work on JSON ←
14:23:40 <NickH> no single input document
no single input document ←
14:24:08 <NickH> (slide 6) looking at the use cases for JSON + RDF
(slide 6) looking at the use cases for JSON + RDF ←
14:26:08 <NickH> matteo: the use cases have made it clearer what the job of the Task Force is
Matteo Brunati: the use cases have made it clearer what the job of the Task Force is ←
14:27:28 <NickH> (slide 7) there are two open issues in the tracker about what the starting point and source of JSON specification reference
(slide 7) there are two open issues in the tracker about what the starting point and source of JSON specification reference ←
14:29:54 <mischat> fwiw, i generated a list of triplestores and the RDF serialisations they support, this includes current practice in the world of JSON RDF
Mischa Tuffield: fwiw, i generated a list of triplestores and the RDF serialisations they support, this includes current practice in the world of JSON RDF ←
14:29:56 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TriplestoreRDFSupport
Mischa Tuffield: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TriplestoreRDFSupport ←
14:30:00 <ivan> Slides on the web (and not as an attachment): http://www.w3.org/2011/04/JSON-TF#%281%29
Ivan Herman: Slides on the web (and not as an attachment): http://www.w3.org/2011/04/JSON-TF#%281%29 ←
14:30:03 <NickH> matteo: tomorrow I am going to try and complete the mind-map that will issulrate all the different issues and serialisations approaches
Matteo Brunati: tomorrow I am going to try and complete the mind-map that will illustrate all the different issues and serialisations approaches ←
14:30:27 <ivan> actually: http://www.w3.org/2011/04/JSON-TF
Ivan Herman: actually: http://www.w3.org/2011/04/JSON-TF ←
14:31:08 <NickH> guus: I am not sure what issues are open for discussion now
Guus Schreiber: I am not sure what issues are open for discussion now ←
14:32:03 <manu> I really like Sandro's simplification on the big Level/Group thing
Manu Sporny: I really like Sandro's simplification on the big Level/Group thing ←
14:32:32 <Souri> s/issulrate/illustrate/
14:32:53 <NickH> looking at:
looking at: ←
14:32:53 <NickH> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/JSON_User_Segments
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/JSON_User_Segments ←
14:33:10 <NickH> sandro: Matrix is too complex
Sandro Hawke: Matrix is too complex ←
14:33:18 <NickH> sandro: lets focus on what the users want
Sandro Hawke: lets focus on what the users want ←
14:34:14 <NickH> sandro: there is also a group D - users who want some of RDF, but not all RDF features (eg blank nodes)
Sandro Hawke: there is also a group D - users who want some of RDF, but not all RDF features (eg blank nodes) ←
14:34:28 <webr3> subset-of-B appears to be A ..
Nathan Rixham: subset-of-B appears to be A .. ←
14:34:29 <manu> q+
Manu Sporny: q+ ←
14:34:38 <NickH> sandro: Group A and C wants something that looks like JSON
Sandro Hawke: Group A and C wants something that looks like JSON ←
14:34:47 <ivan> ack manu
Ivan Herman: ack manu ←
14:34:48 <NickH> sandro: Group B and D want something that looks like RDF
Sandro Hawke: Group B and D want something that looks like RDF ←
14:35:37 <NickH> manu: I believe we can do Group A,B,C,D as a single serialisation
Manu Sporny: I believe we can do Group A,B,C,D as a single serialisation ←
14:35:53 <manu> Here's how we can do Group B: [{}, {}, {}]
Manu Sporny: Here's how we can do Group B: [{}, {}, {}] ←
14:36:01 <manu> Group A: {}
Manu Sporny: Group A: {} ←
14:36:25 <NickH> sandro: I am giving up on trying to solve for all groups with a single solution
Sandro Hawke: I am giving up on trying to solve for all groups with a single solution ←
14:36:52 <gavinc> A) Non RDF aware developers B) RDF aware developers?
Gavin Carothers: A) Non RDF aware developers B) RDF aware developers? ←
14:37:00 <NickH> matteo is now continuing with his slides
matteo is now continuing with his slides ←
14:37:44 <zwu2> sandro, does group C has a JSON view like B?
Zhe Wu: sandro, does group C has a JSON view like B? ←
14:38:55 <sandro> zwu2, Group C uses an API to get RDF-triples. It doesn't really care what the JSON looks like.
Sandro Hawke: zwu2, Group C uses an API to get RDF-triples. It doesn't really care what the JSON looks like. ←
14:39:29 <webr3> minor point: everybody who follows their nose around the web of data requires an API regardless, they have to
Nathan Rixham: minor point: everybody who follows their nose around the web of data requires an API regardless, they have to ←
14:39:30 <NickH> (slide 12) shows a document from several years ago that compares and contrasts XML and RDF
(slide 12) shows a document from several years ago that compares and contrasts XML and RDF ←
14:39:30 <pgroth> just curious - does anyone have a good pointer to a "popular" site that pushes json based on an rdf backend?
Paul Groth: just curious - does anyone have a good pointer to a "popular" site that pushes json based on an rdf backend? ←
14:39:44 <zwu2> I see, Sandro
14:39:59 <PatH> Slide 12 is cute
Patrick Hayes: Slide 12 is cute ←
14:40:04 <sandro> pgroth, maybe some of the UK Gov't stuff using Linked Data API.
Sandro Hawke: pgroth, maybe some of the UK Gov't stuff using Linked Data API. ←
14:40:10 <NickH> matteo: perhaps we should make a similar diagram explaining the differences between RDF and JSON
Matteo Brunati: perhaps we should make a similar diagram explaining the differences between RDF and JSON ←
14:40:27 <cygri> pgroth, dbpedia?
Richard Cyganiak: pgroth, dbpedia? ←
14:40:46 <gavinc> not popular, but oreilly.com
Gavin Carothers: not popular, but oreilly.com ←
14:40:54 <pgroth> cygri, do lots of people use the json end of dbpedia?
Paul Groth: cygri, do lots of people use the json end of dbpedia? ←
14:41:06 <NickH> pgroth: the BBC World Cup website was built using JSON from a Triplestore
Paul Groth: the BBC World Cup website was built using JSON from a Triplestore ←
14:41:19 <cygri> pgroth, i have no numbers about that
Richard Cyganiak: pgroth, i have no numbers about that ←
14:41:33 <webr3> pgroth, nytimes http://data.nytimes.com//60694995023816375851.json
Nathan Rixham: pgroth, nytimes http://data.nytimes.com//60694995023816375851.json ←
14:41:59 <pgroth> webr3, best example so far :-)
Paul Groth: webr3, best example so far :-) ←
14:42:34 <gavinc> Huh, I had no idea the nytimes RDF came as JSON too
Gavin Carothers: Huh, I had no idea the nytimes RDF came as JSON too ←
14:42:55 <mischat> ok
Mischa Tuffield: ok ←
14:43:12 <pgroth> that is some ugly urls
Paul Groth: that is some ugly urls ←
14:43:20 <NickH> now showing "JSON Syntax Options" PDF by Thomas Steiner
now showing "JSON Syntax Options" PDF by Thomas Steiner ←
14:43:27 <yvesr> webr3: i wonder why that example doesn't use native json datatypes (for lat/long)
Nathan Rixham: i wonder why that example doesn't use native json datatypes (for lat/long) [ Scribe Assist by Yves Raimond ] ←
14:43:30 <mischat> is the syntax a named syntax, the nytimes one ? does it related to any of the json syntaxes up on our wiki?
Mischa Tuffield: is the syntax a named syntax, the nytimes one ? does it related to any of the json syntaxes up on our wiki? ←
14:43:52 <SteveH> jsonlint seems to believe that the / escaping is neccesary
Steve Harris: jsonlint seems to believe that the / escaping is neccesary ←
14:44:04 <webr3> yvesr, I'm unsure, it doesn't use /any/ native types
Nathan Rixham: yvesr, I'm unsure, it doesn't use /any/ native types ←
14:44:35 <NickH> yvesr: http://tools.ietf.org/search/rfc5870
Yves Raimond: http://tools.ietf.org/search/rfc5870 ←
14:45:11 <danbri> ivan, http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1580647/json-why-are-forward-slashes-escaped " Allowing \/ helps when embedding JSON in a <script> tag,"
Dan Brickley: ivan, http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1580647/json-why-are-forward-slashes-escaped " Allowing \/ helps when embedding JSON in a <script> tag," ←
14:46:45 <webr3> comments re nytimes data: note no nested objects, subject as key, all values always in an array (this is something Joe Presebrey from MIT also said was most useful for consuming), doesn't use any native types, bad slashing style, uses namespaces
Nathan Rixham: comments re nytimes data: note no nested objects, subject as key, all values always in an array (this is something Joe Presebrey from MIT also said was most useful for consuming), doesn't use any native types, bad slashing style, uses namespaces ←
14:46:52 <zwu2> like the matrix one
14:48:13 <NickH> first, a object based approach, which is close to what Web Developers expect from JSON
first, a object based approach, which is close to what Web Developers expect from JSON ←
14:48:31 <mischat> there is a widely deployed json-triple format in the wild at the moment iirc
Mischa Tuffield: there is a widely deployed json-triple format in the wild at the moment iirc ←
14:48:34 <NickH> second, a triple-based approach which is very close to RDF
second, a triple-based approach which is very close to RDF ←
14:48:47 <webr3> more comments re nytimes: this actually appears to be more machine optimized than developer friendly (looses dot notation, no usage of basic types, will require pre-processing before using in most cases)
Nathan Rixham: more comments re nytimes: this actually appears to be more machine optimized than developer friendly (looses dot notation, no usage of basic types, will require pre-processing before using in most cases) ←
14:50:01 <NickH> sandro: is confused by the _:id in the example
Sandro Hawke: is confused by the _:id in the example ←
14:50:06 <manu> Sandro: We need to discuss why we used '@' - there was a reason :P
Sandro Hawke: We need to discuss why we used '@' - there was a reason :P [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
14:50:23 <NickH> not clear if id is a real string or a placeholder
not clear if id is a real string or a placeholder ←
14:50:24 <webr3> re "Findings - subjects (object-based)" the first allows nested objects, the second pretty much precludes it
Nathan Rixham: re "Findings - subjects (object-based)" the first allows nested objects, the second pretty much precludes it ←
14:50:50 <danbri> IRIs can contain spaces, right?
Dan Brickley: IRIs can contain spaces, right? ←
14:51:03 <NickH> sandro: it is totally necessary to be able to distinguish between URIs and strings
Sandro Hawke: it is totally necessary to be able to distinguish between URIs and strings ←
14:51:04 <PatH> Is the example being discussed web-visible?
Patrick Hayes: Is the example being discussed web-visible? ←
14:51:16 <webr3> PatH, https://docs.google.com/present/view?id=dgdcn6h3_266fzjvjrcp
Nathan Rixham: PatH, https://docs.google.com/present/view?id=dgdcn6h3_266fzjvjrcp ←
14:51:25 <NickH> sandro: don't take the lack of mails on the mailing list as agreement
Sandro Hawke: don't take the lack of mails on the mailing list as agreement ←
14:51:26 <webr3> (slide 11 now)
Nathan Rixham: (slide 11 now) ←
14:51:31 <PatH> Ta.
Patrick Hayes: Ta. ←
14:52:27 <manu> It says "Findings - IRIs" at the top, NickH
Manu Sporny: It says "Findings - IRIs" at the top, NickH ←
14:52:43 <NickH> short dicussion about wether IRIs can contain whitespace
short dicussion about wether IRIs can contain whitespace ←
14:52:49 <manu> Also - I have a solution for the language tags and IRIs via @context...
Manu Sporny: Also - I have a solution for the language tags and IRIs via @context... ←
14:53:05 <manu> haven't had a chance to put that out to the mailing list - we could have a trigger in the @context
Manu Sporny: haven't had a chance to put that out to the mailing list - we could have a trigger in the @context ←
14:53:11 <NickH> webr3: it isn't on the projection
Nathan Rixham: it isn't on the projection ←
14:53:25 <manu> "@context" : { "@microsyntaxes" : true }
Manu Sporny: "@context" : { "@microsyntaxes" : true } ←
14:53:26 <sandro> (I really really dont like the microsyntax approaches.)
Sandro Hawke: (I really really dont like the microsyntax approaches.) ←
14:53:43 <NickH> question about how to escape @ sign in the micro format for languages
question about how to escape @ sign in the micro format for languages ←
14:53:51 <danbri> related: http://nico.vahlas.eu/2010/04/23/json-schema-specifying-and-validating-json-data-structures/ http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zyp-json-schema-03
Dan Brickley: related: http://nico.vahlas.eu/2010/04/23/json-schema-specifying-and-validating-json-data-structures/ http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zyp-json-schema-03 ←
14:53:52 <manu> I don't like the Microsyntax approaches either, but when you take the Web-developer-friendly object-based approach, you paint yourself into a corner.
Manu Sporny: I don't like the Microsyntax approaches either, but when you take the Web-developer-friendly object-based approach, you paint yourself into a corner. ←
14:54:22 <NickH> SteveH: why is '@' being used for datatypes as well as languages
Steve Harris: why is '@' being used for datatypes as well as languages ←
14:54:30 <manu> q+
Manu Sporny: q+ ←
14:54:39 <webr3> unsure whether lang or datatype necessary for /all/ use cases..
Nathan Rixham: unsure whether lang or datatype necessary for /all/ use cases.. ←
14:54:52 <NickH> sandro: doesn't like the Microformat approach, don't like parsing both
Sandro Hawke: doesn't like the Microformat approach, don't like parsing both ←
14:54:57 <ivan> ack manu
Ivan Herman: ack manu ←
14:55:20 <sandro> sandro: I think microparsing is the worst of both worlds....
Sandro Hawke: I think microparsing is the worst of both worlds.... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:55:25 <NickH> manu: agrees but thinks microformats may be needed for the edge cases
Manu Sporny: agrees but thinks microformats may be needed for the edge cases ←
14:55:31 <cygri> sandro +1
Richard Cyganiak: sandro +1 ←
14:56:13 <PatH> meta-comment, we ought to avoid trying to police how the planet uses JSON...
Patrick Hayes: meta-comment, we ought to avoid trying to police how the planet uses JSON... ←
14:56:20 <NickH> manu: even if we hate micro syntaxes, there are ways that we can hide them from the mainstream approach
Manu Sporny: even if we hate micro syntaxes, there are ways that we can hide them from the mainstream approach ←
14:56:34 <NickH> webr3: +1
Nathan Rixham: +1 ←
14:56:55 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller] ←
14:56:58 <gavinc> Do ANY of the Web Developer JSON syntax methods provide the BENEFITS of RDF to the JSON developer?
Gavin Carothers: Do ANY of the Web Developer JSON syntax methods provide the BENEFITS of RDF to the JSON developer? ←
14:56:58 <NickH> ivan: we should be optimising for web developers
Ivan Herman: we should be optimising for web developers ←
14:57:13 <manu> q+
Manu Sporny: q+ ←
14:57:42 <NickH> ivan: joking aside, being readable isn't as important as making it easy to use for web developers
Ivan Herman: joking aside, being readable isn't as important as making it easy to use for web developers ←
14:57:44 <PatH> +1 to speaker. Readers count less that developer code.
Patrick Hayes: +1 to danbri. Readers count less that developer code. ←
14:57:49 <PatH> that/than
Patrick Hayes: that/than ←
14:57:54 <NickH> danbri: it is about code readability not data readability
Dan Brickley: it is about code readability not data readability ←
14:57:55 <ivan> ack manu
Ivan Herman: ack manu ←
14:57:59 <gavinc> +q
Gavin Carothers: +q ←
14:58:00 <mischat> s/speaker/danbri/
14:58:09 <davidwood> ack manu
David Wood: ack manu ←
14:58:11 <NickH> manu: the only microformat we need is for languages, not for datatypes
Manu Sporny: the only microformat we need is for languages, as well as for datatypes ←
14:58:12 <danbri> s/not/as well as/ (well I can't remember what I said, but that's what I meant :)
14:58:16 <ivan> s/to speaker/to Danbri/
Ivan Herman: s/to speaker/to Danbri/ (warning: replacement failed) ←
14:58:26 <Zakim> +??P7
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P7 ←
14:58:37 <webr3> zakim, i am ??P7
Nathan Rixham: zakim, i am ??P7 ←
14:58:37 <Zakim> +webr3; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +webr3; got it ←
14:59:19 <pgroth> manu, aren't you just saying, we should make this context with a bunch of default interpretations
Paul Groth: manu, aren't you just saying, we should make this context with a bunch of default interpretations ←
15:00:00 <NickH> manu: you can use the context to work out the type or datatype instead of microsyntaxes
Manu Sporny: you can use the context to work out the type or datatype instead of microsyntaxes ←
15:00:18 <manu> {"value": "5", "type": "xsd:integer"}
Manu Sporny: {"value": "5", "type": "xsd:integer"} ←
15:00:24 <NickH> manu: for example when using foaf:homepage, you can guess that the value is an IRI
Manu Sporny: for example when using foaf:homepage, you can guess that the value is an IRI ←
15:00:29 <manu> {"value": "foo", "lang": "fr"}
Manu Sporny: {"value": "foo", "lang": "fr"} ←
15:00:40 <webr3> or arcs..
Nathan Rixham: or arcs.. ←
15:00:49 <webr3> I don't have much to say bar -> we can have two simple syntaxes, one v simple w/ no datatypes or langs, and another one just like jtriples w/ full rdf support, I see no need to complicate this - although we can and have a hybrid that covers every use cases, just worries me having one complex spec that can cover everything, vs two simple specs that people can grok in a few minutes / w/ one example
Nathan Rixham: I don't have much to say bar -> we can have two simple syntaxes, one v simple w/ no datatypes or langs, and another one just like jtriples w/ full rdf support, I see no need to complicate this - although we can and have a hybrid that covers every use cases, just worries me having one complex spec that can cover everything, vs two simple specs that people can grok in a few minutes / w/ one example ←
15:01:10 <ivan> q?
Ivan Herman: q? ←
15:01:28 <ivan> ack gavinc
Ivan Herman: ack gavinc ←
15:01:32 <SteveH> q+
Steve Harris: q+ ←
15:01:50 <sandro> sandro: you could have foaf_name_en and foaf_name_gr etc....
Sandro Hawke: you could have foaf_name_en and foaf_name_gr etc.... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:02:10 <pgroth> q+
Paul Groth: q+ ←
15:02:13 <pfps> +1 to gavinc
Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 to gavinc ←
15:02:25 <PatH> Because they might need to interact with RDF data whether htey like it or not.
Patrick Hayes: Because they might need to interact with RDF data whether htey like it or not. ←
15:03:14 <NickH> manu: it is about convicing the publishers that they don't need to change their JSON too much to make it RDF compatible
Manu Sporny: it is about convicing the publishers that they don't need to change their JSON too much to make it RDF compatible ←
15:03:26 <webr3> and I want to cover (in one case): http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Apr/0230.html
Nathan Rixham: and I want to cover (in one case): http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Apr/0230.html ←
15:03:29 <manu> q+ to discuss PaySwarm use case.
Manu Sporny: q+ to discuss PaySwarm use case. ←
15:03:30 <cygri> gavinc: possible answer here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Apr/0159.html
Gavin Carothers: possible answer here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Apr/0159.html [ Scribe Assist by Richard Cyganiak ] ←
15:03:48 <manu> q-
Manu Sporny: q- ←
15:03:57 <manu> q+ to discuss Twitter/Facebook/etc.
Manu Sporny: q+ to discuss Twitter/Facebook/etc. ←
15:04:07 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
15:04:12 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
15:04:21 <NickH> manu: the target for the specification is not for developers, but for publishers
Manu Sporny: the target for the specification is not for developers, but for publishers ←
15:04:39 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
15:04:42 <webr3> manu, example re facebook: <http://graph.facebook.com/1234> If you somehow said "stick http://ogp.me/ns# before each property, and use the URL as the subject, you've got RDF", then I believe that would cover a large portion of the "JSON as RDF" A/D user segments.
Nathan Rixham: gavin, example re facebook: <http://graph.facebook.com/1234> If you somehow said "stick http://ogp.me/ns# before each property, and use the URL as the subject, you've got RDF", then I believe that would cover a large portion of the "JSON as RDF" A/D user segments. ←
15:05:35 <sandro> ack SteveH
Sandro Hawke: ack SteveH ←
15:05:39 <ivan> ack SteveH
Ivan Herman: ack SteveH ←
15:05:51 <NickH> s/manu/gavin/
15:05:58 <NickH> (sorry!)
(sorry!) ←
15:06:25 <manu> What six syntaxes do they publish their API in?
Manu Sporny: What six syntaxes do they publish their API in? ←
15:06:26 <NickH> SteveH: we don't want the JSON from the Twitter API to return RDF triples
Steve Harris: we don't want the JSON from the Twitter API to return RDF triples ←
15:06:32 <manu> JSON, XML - what else?
Manu Sporny: JSON, XML - what else? ←
15:06:33 <mischat> q+
Mischa Tuffield: q+ ←
15:06:33 <sandro> SteveH: My concern is similar gavin's. I think there is very small audience for this. This doesnt provide anything anyone needs. Who wants the twitter API as JSON...? And Twitter is willing to produce other formats as well!
Steve Harris: My concern is similar gavin's. I think there is very small audience for this. This doesnt provide anything anyone needs. Who wants the twitter API as JSON...? And Twitter is willing to produce other formats as well! [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:06:36 <pgroth> q-
Paul Groth: q- ←
15:06:43 <webr3> manu, formerly atom and rss too iirc
Nathan Rixham: manu, formerly atom and rss too iirc ←
15:06:51 <NickH> SteveH: there just aren't enough consumers to justify the work
Steve Harris: there just aren't enough consumers to justify the work ←
15:06:55 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
15:07:05 <manu> webr3: but their API in Atom/RSS?
Nathan Rixham: but their API in Atom/RSS? [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
15:07:15 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
15:07:17 <webr3> manu: previously ya, unsure now
Manu Sporny: previously ya, unsure now [ Scribe Assist by Nathan Rixham ] ←
15:07:20 <manu> webr3: They publish /some/ data in Atom/RSS - but not all of it.
Nathan Rixham: They publish /some/ data in Atom/RSS - but not all of it. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
15:07:25 <yvesr> q+
Yves Raimond: q+ ←
15:07:35 <sandro> SteveH: Also, on microsyntaxes -- if the data is not in RDF, how would get language tags, etc?
Steve Harris: Also, on microsyntaxes -- if the data is not in RDF, how would get language tags, etc? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:07:41 <NickH> SteveH: if the data is not being held in RDF, I don't see why you need to encode the RDF datatypes into JSON, just use JSON types
Steve Harris: if the data is not being held in RDF, I don't see why you need to encode the RDF datatypes into JSON, just use JSON types ←
15:07:42 <ivan> ack manu
Ivan Herman: ack manu ←
15:07:42 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to discuss Twitter/Facebook/etc.
Zakim IRC Bot: manu, you wanted to discuss Twitter/Facebook/etc. ←
15:07:47 <sandro> sandro: Manu is trying to address groups A, and B (and C) at the same time,
Sandro Hawke: Manu is trying to address groups A, and B (and C) at the same time, [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:07:52 <davidwood> ack manu
David Wood: ack manu ←
15:07:52 <danbri> example from twitter: http://dev.twitter.com/doc/get/:user/lists/:id 'Supported formats XML, JSON'
Dan Brickley: example from twitter: http://dev.twitter.com/doc/get/:user/lists/:id 'Supported formats XML, JSON' ←
15:08:01 <mischat> q-
Mischa Tuffield: q- ←
15:08:38 <NickH> manu: just to be clear, I don't suggest that we suggest to solve Groups A,B,C,D with a single solution, just that there are solutions on the table that are possible
Manu Sporny: just to be clear, I don't suggest that we suggest to solve Groups A,B,C,D with a single solution, just that there are solutions on the table that are possible ←
15:08:56 <Guus> I wonder wehther we should simply start from the proposals: only consider those proposals that already have a substantial user base
Guus Schreiber: I wonder wehther we should simply start from the proposals: only consider those proposals that already have a substantial user base ←
15:09:14 <mischat> i wonder if developers use JSON because of good toolings, and simple code, as mentioned earlier, not because of the fact that the JSON syntax looks a certain way
Mischa Tuffield: i wonder if developers use JSON because of good toolings, and simple code, as mentioned earlier, not because of the fact that the JSON syntax looks a certain way ←
15:09:21 <sandro> (I don't think A and B can be satisfied together. There is no format which can be trivially parsed to triples and also is friendly to js app developers, for *all* RDF.)
Sandro Hawke: (I don't think A and B can be satisfied together. There is no format which can be trivially parsed to triples and also is friendly to js app developers, for *all* RDF.) ←
15:09:25 <yvesr> mischat: speed is a massive factor
Yves Raimond: mischat, speed is a massive factor ←
15:09:37 <yvesr> json parsers are often an order of magnitude faster than xml
Yves Raimond: json parsers are often an order of magnitude faster than xml ←
15:09:57 <mischat> indeed, and if the json parser had to understand rdf, i bet it would be less efficient
Mischa Tuffield: indeed, and if the json parser had to understand rdf, i bet it would be less efficient ←
15:10:05 <sandro> s/mischat:/mischat,/
15:10:11 <Guus> q+
Guus Schreiber: q+ ←
15:10:13 <danbri> (with Facebook, the single biggest problem w/ RDFa is the disconnected namespace declaration --- publishers constantly screw that up)
Dan Brickley: (with Facebook, the single biggest problem w/ RDFa is the disconnected namespace declaration --- publishers constantly screw that up) ←
15:10:15 <LeeF> I don't think it's the WG's job to "place a bet" on what will get the rest of the world to adopt Semantic Web technologies.
Lee Feigenbaum: I don't think it's the WG's job to "place a bet" on what will get the rest of the world to adopt Semantic Web technologies. ←
15:10:23 <yvesr> mischat: yes, you'd have to add a layer on the top casting that to a graph
Yves Raimond: mischat, yes, you'd have to add a layer on the top casting that to a graph ←
15:10:32 <mischat> s/mischat:/mischat,/
15:11:32 <gavinc> Yeah, I write 30 lines of Python ... and produce triples at the other end
Gavin Carothers: Yeah, I write 30 lines of Python ... and produce triples at the other end ←
15:11:40 <sandro> steve: who would want to consume this stuff in preference to consumer normal json? We're an RDF shop, and we'd rather just consume JSON and turn in to RDF itself.
Steve Harris: who would want to consume this stuff in preference to consumer normal json? We're an RDF shop, and we'd rather just consume JSON and turn in to RDF itself. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:11:49 <MacTed> rather frustrating to have the wiki say the next meeting is not until next week.... http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings
Ted Thibodeau: rather frustrating to have the wiki say the next meeting is not until next week.... http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings ←
15:11:54 <sandro> ack
Sandro Hawke: ack ←
15:11:55 <davidwood> ack cygri
David Wood: ack cygri ←
15:12:17 <manu> q+ to talk about decentralized systems
Manu Sporny: q+ to talk about decentralized systems ←
15:12:29 <pfps> steve - is there a document that says how you process vanilla JSON and turn it into RDF
Peter Patel-Schneider: steve - is there a document that says how you process vanilla JSON and turn it into RDF ←
15:12:35 <sandro> cygri: For sindice it would be great if it could just be indexing all these json data feeds without per-source coding.
Richard Cyganiak: For sindice it would be great if it could just be indexing all these json data feeds without per-source coding. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:12:35 <davidwood> MacTed: When do you want the next meeting to be?
Ted Thibodeau: When do you want the next meeting to be? [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ] ←
15:13:25 <mischat> cygri: speak up
Mischa Tuffield: cygri, speak up ←
15:13:35 <mischat> s/:/,/
15:14:19 <NickH> cygri: do we have anything to offer in the Group A just care about JSON and don't actually care about RDF? Yes, we do. RDF has a number of advtanages as a data model.
Richard Cyganiak: do we have anything to offer in the Group A just care about JSON and don't actually care about RDF? Yes, we do. RDF has a number of advtanages as a data model. ←
15:14:25 <yvesr> q-
Yves Raimond: q- ←
15:14:26 <SteveH> cygri's point is reasonably persuasive, but were a few hops from that in the tech world curently
Steve Harris: cygri's point is reasonably persuasive, but were a few hops from that in the tech world curently ←
15:14:30 <NickH> cygri: in RDF, URIs are explicitly marked up
Richard Cyganiak: in RDF, URIs are explicitly marked up ←
15:14:33 <webr3> question: if you took jtriples or talis-rdf as one serialization (to cover rdf), and created a way for the opengraph data to say "append the property names to http://ogp.me#ns and use the GET uri as a subject" (to bring linked data/rdf basic benefits to the wild web), then what segment would not be covered?
Nathan Rixham: question: if you took jtriples or talis-rdf as one serialization (to cover rdf), and created a way for the opengraph data to say "append the property names to http://ogp.me#ns and use the GET uri as a subject" (to bring linked data/rdf basic benefits to the wild web), then what segment would not be covered? ←
15:14:35 <webr3> .. also, if JSON-schema was merged w/ owl in some way, surely that'd cover everything possible?
Nathan Rixham: .. also, if JSON-schema was merged w/ owl in some way, surely that'd cover everything possible? ←
15:14:44 <mischat> q+
Mischa Tuffield: q+ ←
15:14:53 <NickH> cygri: terms in the data dictionary are unique and resolvable
Richard Cyganiak: terms in the data dictionary are unique and resolvable ←
15:15:03 <NickH> cygri: in RDF it is easy to mix data dictionaries
Richard Cyganiak: in RDF it is easy to mix data dictionaries ←
15:15:27 <NickH> cygri: there are number of properties that RDF has that JSON doesn't have, that can benifits the JSON community
Richard Cyganiak: there are number of properties that RDF has that JSON doesn't have, that can benifits the JSON community ←
15:15:56 <danbri> (seems to be some discussion of RDF on the JSON schemas list - http://groups.google.com/group/json-schema/search?group=json-schema&q=rdf&qt_g=Search+this+group )
Dan Brickley: (seems to be some discussion of RDF on the JSON schemas list - http://groups.google.com/group/json-schema/search?group=json-schema&q=rdf&qt_g=Search+this+group ) ←
15:15:59 <NickH> cygri: it could make JSON a tiny bit better without implementing full RDF
Richard Cyganiak: it could make JSON a tiny bit better without implementing full RDF ←
15:16:40 <cygri> the mail i mentioned is here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Apr/0159.html
Richard Cyganiak: the mail i mentioned is here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Apr/0159.html ←
15:16:42 <davidwood> ack ivan
David Wood: ack ivan ←
15:16:43 <sandro> cygri: These has to be a benefit to JSON producers and JSON consumers to this work, or it's not worth doing.
Richard Cyganiak: These has to be a benefit to JSON producers and JSON consumers to this work, or it's not worth doing. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:16:50 <webr3> danbri, I've been talking to kris zyp too, and he's def got interest there, I've offered to help mix in benefits of rdf/owl/linked-data to json-schema
Nathan Rixham: danbri, I've been talking to kris zyp too, and he's def got interest there, I've offered to help mix in benefits of rdf/owl/linked-data to json-schema ←
15:17:10 <NickH> ivan: the semantic web community has produced huge amount of data on the web
Ivan Herman: the semantic web community has produced huge amount of data on the web ←
15:17:38 <mischat> +1 to ivan's point. I went to the UK government hack day, and NOT ONE of the web developers uses any of the RDF on data.gov.uk
Mischa Tuffield: +1 to ivan's point. I went to the UK government hack day, and NOT ONE of the web developers uses any of the RDF on data.gov.uk ←
15:17:42 <manu> +1 to Ivan!!
Manu Sporny: +1 to Ivan!! ←
15:17:46 <pgroth> +1
Paul Groth: +1 ←
15:17:48 <mischat> they ONLY used the JSON data
Mischa Tuffield: they ONLY used the JSON data ←
15:17:48 <sandro> ivan: The problem is that the web developers ignore what the LOD community has produced.
Ivan Herman: The problem is that the web developers ignore what the LOD community has produced. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:17:50 <NickH> ivan: there is a large community of web mashup developers out there that today ignores the data that the linked open data community produces
Ivan Herman: there is a large community of web mashup developers out there that today ignores the data that the linked open data community produces ←
15:17:54 <danbri> q+ to suggest that consuming apps and useful tooling are more important than syntax tweaks
Dan Brickley: q+ to suggest that consuming apps and useful tooling are more important than syntax tweaks ←
15:18:01 <yvesr> althouth the web dev community likes linked data when it's *also* available as JSON
Yves Raimond: althouth the web dev community likes linked data when it's *also* available as JSON ←
15:18:08 <yvesr> we have quite a lot of people using our BBC JSON feeds
Yves Raimond: we have quite a lot of people using our BBC JSON feeds ←
15:18:09 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
15:18:10 <NickH> ivan: today they are unwilling to go outside of their world and use Turtle
Ivan Herman: today they are unwilling to go outside of their world and use Turtle ←
15:18:25 <sandro> sandro: Why doesn't the SPARQL JSON Result format work for them, Ivan?
Sandro Hawke: Why doesn't the SPARQL JSON Result format work for them, Ivan? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:18:28 <sandro> ivan: It might.
Ivan Herman: It might. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:18:29 <pgroth> what we need, is if I expose my data as linked data, I get for free a json api
Paul Groth: what we need, is if I expose my data as linked data, I get for free a json api ←
15:18:32 <NickH> ivan: that they need, is very clearly, a simple JSON view on the data
Ivan Herman: that they need, is very clearly, a simple JSON view on the data ←
15:18:41 <PatH> +1 to pgroth
Patrick Hayes: +1 to pgroth ←
15:18:47 <pchampin> what about a JSON-CONSTRUCT keyword in SPARQL, then?
Pierre-Antoine Champin: what about a JSON-CONSTRUCT keyword in SPARQL, then? ←
15:18:59 <yvesr> pgroth, yes, exactly
Yves Raimond: pgroth, yes, exactly ←
15:19:03 <davidwood> ack guus
David Wood: ack guus ←
15:19:14 <NickH> davidwood: I agree that they are two completely different communities
David Wood: I agree that they are two completely different communities ←
15:19:23 <yvesr> pgroth, the inverse transformation is still interesting though
Yves Raimond: pgroth, the inverse transformation is still interesting though ←
15:19:31 <PatH> SOunds like the most urgent JSON need is for a simple API for JSON developers, to lure them into using RDF. Focus on this?
Patrick Hayes: SOunds like the most urgent JSON need is for a simple API for JSON developers, to lure them into using RDF. Focus on this? ←
15:19:49 <pgroth> PatH, agree
Paul Groth: PatH, agree ←
15:20:08 <pgroth> what about the RDFapi group for this?
Paul Groth: what about the RDFapi group for this? ←
15:20:31 <zwu2> If people need to use rdf, they use it. If there is no real business need, they won't.
Zhe Wu: If people need to use rdf, they use it. If there is no real business need, they won't. ←
15:20:32 <sandro> Yes, Pat -- that would address Ivan's needs, probably. A very nice rdf.js.
Sandro Hawke: Yes, Pat -- that would address Ivan's needs, probably. A very nice rdf.js. ←
15:20:39 <yvesr> PatH, agree
Yves Raimond: PatH, agree ←
15:20:52 <NickH> Guus: I don't see making simple JSON based API for this group. Still after two months we have not made any progress.
Guus Schreiber: I don't see making simple JSON based API for this group. Still after two months we have not made any progress. ←
15:20:54 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
15:20:58 <davidwood> ack manu
David Wood: ack manu ←
15:20:58 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to talk about decentralized systems
Zakim IRC Bot: manu, you wanted to talk about decentralized systems ←
15:21:02 <LeeF> zwu2++ -- if people don't need to use RDF and are happy with JSON, then there's no problem to be solved there
Lee Feigenbaum: zwu2++ -- if people don't need to use RDF and are happy with JSON, then there's no problem to be solved there ←
15:21:09 <SteveH> +1
Steve Harris: +1 ←
15:21:44 <danbri> q-
Dan Brickley: q- ←
15:21:51 <NickH> manu: at one point it was asked "What can we offer Group A?". The JSON community doesn't current have a way to build de-centralised systems.
Manu Sporny: at one point it was asked "What can we offer Group A?". The JSON community doesn't current have a way to build de-centralised systems. ←
15:22:11 <MacTed> davidwood - the "next meeting" is apparently today.
Ted Thibodeau: davidwood - the "next meeting" is apparently today. ←
15:22:12 <NickH> manu: at the moment you have to re-invent the wheel every time you want to talk to a different service
Manu Sporny: at the moment you have to re-invent the wheel every time you want to talk to a different service ←
15:22:40 <NickH> manu: there is a need to have a de-centralised, simple, communication protocol
Manu Sporny: there is a need to have a de-centralised, simple, communication protocol ←
15:22:46 <davidwood> MacTed: We are at F2F1 now, but if you want to change the wiki you certainly may.
Ted Thibodeau: We are at F2F1 now, but if you want to change the wiki you certainly may. [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ] ←
15:22:58 <Zakim> + +1.781.273.aaii
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.781.273.aaii ←
15:22:59 <ivan> q?
Ivan Herman: q? ←
15:23:00 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
15:23:08 <NickH> Guus: is this better suited to the RDF API group?
Guus Schreiber: is this better suited to the RDF API group? ←
15:23:08 <davidwood> ack mischat
David Wood: ack mischat ←
15:23:15 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
15:23:20 <danbri> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/453880/how-many-developers-are-there-in-the-world
Dan Brickley: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/453880/how-many-developers-are-there-in-the-world ←
15:23:51 <NickH> mischat: The UK Government has lots of data. Recently went to a Hack the Government day. Lots of good developers but none of them know how to use RDF.
Mischa Tuffield: The UK Government has lots of data. Recently went to a Hack the Government day. Lots of good developers but none of them know how to use RDF. ←
15:23:57 <danbri> http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/19720/where-can-i-find-statistics-on-worldwide-developers-and-software-companies/20300#20300
Dan Brickley: http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/19720/where-can-i-find-statistics-on-worldwide-developers-and-software-companies/20300#20300 ←
15:23:58 <NickH> mischat: JSON offers simplicity
Mischa Tuffield: JSON offers simplicity ←
15:24:00 <LeeF> That sounds like success to me. RDF was valuable to bring the government data together (right?), and yet didn't have to cause anyone to change their toolchains to consume the data. That's a good thing, right?
Lee Feigenbaum: That sounds like success to me. RDF was valuable to bring the government data together (right?), and yet didn't have to cause anyone to change their toolchains to consume the data. That's a good thing, right? ←
15:24:06 <pchampin> q+ to ask if we can bring the benefits of RDF to people that will stick to JSON objects
Pierre-Antoine Champin: q+ to ask if we can bring the benefits of RDF to people that will stick to JSON objects ←
15:24:11 <davidwood> ack cygri
David Wood: ack cygri ←
15:25:00 <NickH> cygri: we have 3 distinct problems that we are trying to solve. And we need to handle them seperately.
Richard Cyganiak: we have 3 distinct problems that we are trying to solve. And we need to handle them seperately. ←
15:25:13 <NickH> cygri: 1) we need to make simple JSON more RDFy
Richard Cyganiak: 1) we need to make existing simple JSON more RDFy ←
15:25:24 <pchampin> s/simple/existing simple/
15:25:54 <NickH> cygri: 2) If we already have RDF on the publisher side, we should make it available as JSON for JavaScript consumers
Richard Cyganiak: 2) If we already have RDF on the publisher side, we should make it available as JSON for JavaScript consumers ←
15:25:55 <mischat> https://code.google.com/p/linked-data-api/
Mischa Tuffield: https://code.google.com/p/linked-data-api/ ←
15:25:58 <webr3> there is a huge quantity of non rdf data in the world, and a lot of that in json, a way to see that data as simple rdf and mash it up with data from other non rdf sources would be, well huge imho - easiest way is shared property names and uris as ids
Nathan Rixham: there is a huge quantity of non rdf data in the world, and a lot of that in json, a way to see that data as simple rdf and mash it up with data from other non rdf sources would be, well huge imho - easiest way is shared property names and uris as ids ←
15:26:07 <sandro> cygri: three distinct problems. we have to separate them. (1) trying to get data out of current JSON APIs, making them more RDFy. (2) if we have data in RDF at the publisher and the consumer wants RDF. Eg for SPARQL Construct result in JS. rdf-2-rdf. (3) You have data in RDF and you want web developers to use this..
Richard Cyganiak: three distinct problems. we have to separate them. (1) trying to get data out of current JSON APIs, making them more RDFy. (2) if we have data in RDF at the publisher and the consumer wants RDF. Eg for SPARQL Construct result in JS. rdf-2-rdf. (3) You have data in RDF and you want web developers to use this.. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:26:14 <sandro> +1 cygri
Sandro Hawke: +1 cygri ←
15:26:19 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
15:26:20 <SteveH> q+ JSON APIs to RDF
Steve Harris: q+ JSON APIs to RDF ←
15:26:26 <NickH> cygri: 3) Developers don't need to know anything about RDF, just make it easy for them to consume data that is already in RDF
Richard Cyganiak: 3) Developers don't need to know anything about RDF, just make it easy for them to consume data that is already in RDF ←
15:26:37 <webr3> 1 = 3 ?
Nathan Rixham: 1 = 3 ? ←
15:26:38 <davidwood> ack ivan
David Wood: ack ivan ←
15:26:40 <SteveH> q+ to talk about JSON APIs to RDF (3)
Steve Harris: q+ to talk about JSON APIs to RDF (3) ←
15:26:43 <ivan> ack ivan
Ivan Herman: ack ivan ←
15:27:04 <danbri> some numbers: http://www.google.com/trends?q=sql%2C+xml%2C+json%2C+csv%2C+rdf&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0
Dan Brickley: some numbers: http://www.google.com/trends?q=sql%2C+xml%2C+json%2C+csv%2C+rdf&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0 ←
15:27:13 <cygri> webr3: no, not at all. in 1, the publisher has json and the consumer wants rdf. in 3, the publisher has rdf and the consumer wants json
Nathan Rixham: no, not at all. in 1, the publisher has json and the consumer wants rdf. in 3, the publisher has rdf and the consumer wants json [ Scribe Assist by Richard Cyganiak ] ←
15:27:25 <NickH> ivan: comment on the API stuff. What the other working group is working on is a JavaScript API for RDF people.
Ivan Herman: comment on the API stuff. What the other working group is working on is a JavaScript API for RDF people. ←
15:27:37 <webr3> cygri, yes, but the solution for one, serializationwise, would suit both 1 and 3
Nathan Rixham: cygri, yes, but the solution for one, serializationwise, would suit both 1 and 3 ←
15:28:05 <NickH> ivan: the type of API that you see in Jena or rdflib in Python is being implemented in JavaScript for RDF savy people
Ivan Herman: the type of API that you see in Jena or rdflib in Python is being implemented in JavaScript for RDF savy people ←
15:28:10 <Zakim> -webr3
Zakim IRC Bot: -webr3 ←
15:28:34 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
15:28:40 <webr3> zakim, i am IPcaller
Nathan Rixham: zakim, i am IPcaller ←
15:28:40 <Zakim> ok, webr3, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, webr3, I now associate you with [IPcaller] ←
15:28:57 <NickH> danbri: :(
Dan Brickley: :( ←
15:29:06 <davidwood> ack pchampin
David Wood: ack pchampin ←
15:29:06 <Zakim> pchampin, you wanted to ask if we can bring the benefits of RDF to people that will stick to JSON objects
Zakim IRC Bot: pchampin, you wanted to ask if we can bring the benefits of RDF to people that will stick to JSON objects ←
15:29:08 <cygri> webr3, you keep saying that but i don't believe it
Richard Cyganiak: webr3, you keep saying that but i don't believe it ←
15:29:26 <sandro> -1 I think a *good* RDF JS API would allow web developers to get at RDF data.
Sandro Hawke: -1 I think a *good* RDF JS API would allow web developers to get at RDF data. ←
15:29:42 <davidwood> I think Web developers want useful data, not to learn RDF.
David Wood: I think Web developers want useful data, not to learn RDF. ←
15:29:44 <sandro> That is: -1 Ivan, because I think a *good* RDF JS API would allow web developers to get at RDF data.
Sandro Hawke: That is: -1 Ivan, because I think a *good* RDF JS API would allow web developers to get at RDF data. ←
15:29:59 <webr3> cygri, can you think of one feature that oen would have that the other would not?
Nathan Rixham: cygri, can you think of one feature that oen would have that the other would not? ←
15:30:03 <manu> Sandro - I don't think that's what Ivan was saying? Or I don't understand your response...
Manu Sporny: Sandro - I don't think that's what Ivan was saying? Or I don't understand your response... ←
15:30:08 <davidwood> ack SteveH
David Wood: ack SteveH ←
15:30:08 <Zakim> SteveH, you wanted to talk about JSON APIs to RDF (3)
Zakim IRC Bot: SteveH, you wanted to talk about JSON APIs to RDF (3) ←
15:30:10 <NickH> pchampin: seperate out the problems
Pierre-Antoine Champin: seperate out the problems ←
15:30:52 <cygri> webr3, the 1 solution needs uris, the 3 solution doesnt
Richard Cyganiak: webr3, the 1 solution needs uris, the 3 solution doesnt ←
15:31:13 <webr3> cygri, uri's for properties?
Nathan Rixham: cygri, uri's for properties? ←
15:31:22 <sandro> steve: To expose RDF data to web developer, pre-write some canned SPARQL queries and serialize the output as native engineered JSON.
Steve Harris: To expose RDF data to web developer, pre-write some canned SPARQL queries and serialize the output as native engineered JSON. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:31:27 <NickH> SteveH: provide pre-canned SPARQL queries to expose JSON to web developers
Steve Harris: provide pre-canned SPARQL queries to expose JSON to web developers ←
15:31:29 <cygri> webr3 for properties and instances
Richard Cyganiak: webr3 for properties and instances ←
15:31:42 <sandro> steve: No need for stds here.
Steve Harris: No need for stds here. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:31:54 <NickH> SteveH: give them a data format that web developers want to consume - give them pure JSON, not RDF disguised as JSON
Steve Harris: give them a data format that web developers want to consume - give them pure JSON, not RDF disguised as JSON ←
15:32:32 <NickH> ivan: eveything that Linked Data community is doing is being ignored
Ivan Herman: eveything that Linked Data community is doing is being ignored ←
15:32:34 <webr3> cygri, so if there was a way to say "append http://example.org/ns# to all properties and use the GET URI as a subject" in both solutions, what would the difference be?
Nathan Rixham: cygri, so if there was a way to say "append http://example.org/ns# to all properties and use the GET URI as a subject" in both solutions, what would the difference be? ←
15:32:48 <cygri> webr3, that doesn't work for 3
Richard Cyganiak: webr3, that doesn't work for 3 ←
15:33:07 <webr3> cygri, why not, the uri isn't in the data in both cases..
Nathan Rixham: cygri, why not, the uri isn't in the data in both cases.. ←
15:33:18 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
15:33:20 <ivan> q?
Ivan Herman: q? ←
15:33:47 <cygri> webr3 maybe i don't understand what you mean by "there is a way"
Richard Cyganiak: webr3 maybe i don't understand what you mean by "there is a way" ←
15:33:53 <SteveH> q+
Steve Harris: q+ ←
15:34:09 <NickH> danbri: there is all this beautiful data being pubished by the linked data world. But it isn't being used. But I don't think a new standard is the way to solve this.
Dan Brickley: there is all this beautiful data being pubished by the linked data world. But it isn't being used. But I don't think a new standard is the way to solve this. ←
15:34:32 <LeeF> SWEO was the right place for this sort of thing. Not the RDF WG.
Lee Feigenbaum: SWEO was the right place for this sort of thing. Not the RDF WG. ←
15:34:35 <NickH> ivan: nobody is doing anything significant to get out of the chicken and egg problem
Ivan Herman: nobody is doing anything significant to get out of the chicken and egg problem ←
15:34:51 <webr3> cygri, it'd just be like http://graph.facebook.com/1234 perhaps with one addition { vocab: http://ogp.me/ns# } in the data
Nathan Rixham: cygri, it'd just be like http://graph.facebook.com/1234 perhaps with one addition { vocab: http://ogp.me/ns# } in the data ←
15:35:07 <danbri> examples: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00sbqnb.json
Dan Brickley: examples: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00sbqnb.json ←
15:35:12 <webr3> cygri, although i can't see any reason for that not to be in a json-schema like doc..
Nathan Rixham: cygri, although i can't see any reason for that not to be in a json-schema like doc.. ←
15:35:30 <davidwood> ack SteveH
David Wood: ack SteveH ←
15:35:32 <danbri> vs www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00sbqnb.rdf
Dan Brickley: vs www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00sbqnb.rdf ←
15:35:36 <danbri> vs http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00sbqnb.rdf
Dan Brickley: vs http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00sbqnb.rdf ←
15:35:55 <pgroth> q+
Paul Groth: q+ ←
15:36:08 <NickH> yvesr: the BBC offers both RDF and JSON but most people are consuming the JSON, including danbri
Yves Raimond: the BBC offers both RDF and JSON but most people are consuming the JSON, including danbri ←
15:36:33 <NickH> yvesr: the JSON is the same model as the RDF with the namespaces stripped out - very simple
Yves Raimond: the JSON is the same model as the RDF with the namespaces stripped out - very simple ←
15:36:52 <mischat> ivan: this is a pretty printed version of the BBC json : http://pastebin.com/JnEELWP5
Ivan Herman: this is a pretty printed version of the BBC json : http://pastebin.com/JnEELWP5 [ Scribe Assist by Mischa Tuffield ] ←
15:37:32 <danbri> this google sgapi eats rdf/xml with a real (raptor) parser - http://code.google.com/apis/socialgraph/
Dan Brickley: this google sgapi eats rdf/xml with a real (raptor) parser - http://code.google.com/apis/socialgraph/ ←
15:37:45 <NickH> ivan: what are the real big success stories of linked data?
Ivan Herman: what are the real big success stories of linked data? ←
15:37:57 <danbri> (ie. every FOAF file they found in the Web, via standard Google Web crawl)
Dan Brickley: (ie. every FOAF file they found in the Web, via standard Google Web crawl) ←
15:38:06 <davidwood> ack pgroth
David Wood: ack pgroth ←
15:38:11 <manu> q+ on needing a publisher in the middle
Manu Sporny: q+ on needing a publisher in the middle ←
15:38:23 <PatH> Seems to me that I keep hearing that people want to use JSON because it is simple, and not use RDF because it is complicated. In which case, a complicated embedding of full RDF into JSON seems like a shot in the foot.
Patrick Hayes: Seems to me that I keep hearing that people want to use JSON because it is simple, and not use RDF because it is complicated. In which case, a complicated embedding of full RDF into JSON seems like a shot in the foot. ←
15:38:33 <NickH> davidwood: how do we take the linked data cloud and make it available to web developers, without something re-publishing it in the middle
David Wood: how do we take the linked data cloud and make it available to web developers, without something re-publishing it in the middle ←
15:38:40 <webr3> .. ivan,all publish my data from bill roberts does that..
Nathan Rixham: .. ivan,all publish my data from bill roberts does that.. ←
15:38:42 <sandro> (agreed, PatH.)
Sandro Hawke: (agreed, PatH.) ←
15:38:46 <manu> q-
Manu Sporny: q- ←
15:39:00 <mischat> +1 to PatH
Mischa Tuffield: +1 to PatH ←
15:39:04 <manu> q+ to talk about democratization of data and not needing SPARQL publishers.
Manu Sporny: q+ to talk about democratization of data and not needing SPARQL publishers. ←
15:39:33 <pgroth> q-
Paul Groth: q- ←
15:39:37 <NickH> pgroth: there just needs to be recipies for publishing RDF as simple JSON
Paul Groth: there just needs to be recipies for publishing RDF as simple JSON ←
15:39:39 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
15:40:12 <PatH> Being able to just see Paul's right hand is kind of amusing.
Patrick Hayes: Being able to just see Paul's right hand is kind of amusing. ←
15:40:31 <PatH> ta
Patrick Hayes: ta ←
15:40:59 <gavinc> So extend it! And if someone uses it!
Gavin Carothers: So extend it! And if someone uses it! ←
15:41:15 <danbri> so slideshare.com is a good example; they do publish RDFa in various vocabs. Invalid markup at various other levels, though. http://pastebin.com/94cJE6H9
Dan Brickley: so slideshare.com is a good example; they do publish RDFa in various vocabs. Invalid markup at various other levels, though. http://pastebin.com/94cJE6H9 ←
15:41:24 <danbri> q+ to work through slideshare situation
Dan Brickley: q+ to work through slideshare situation ←
15:41:30 <NickH> SteveH: what would help is if you could provide a JSON template for exporting RDF as JSON using SPARQL
Steve Harris: what would help is if you could provide a JSON template for exporting RDF as JSON using SPARQL ←
15:41:43 <davidwood> ack manu
David Wood: ack manu ←
15:41:43 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to talk about democratization of data and not needing SPARQL publishers.
Zakim IRC Bot: manu, you wanted to talk about democratization of data and not needing SPARQL publishers. ←
15:41:47 <webr3> PatH +10 to that
Nathan Rixham: PatH +10 to that ←
15:42:09 <danbri> ('complicated' is a complicated notion)
Dan Brickley: ('complicated' is a complicated notion) ←
15:42:24 <NickH> manu: havn't a publisher in the middle is a fail stategy for Linked Data
Manu Sporny: havn't a publisher in the middle is a fail stategy for Linked Data ←
15:42:29 <SteveH> like CONSTRUCT JSON { { "name": ?name, "dob":?dob } } WHERE { ?x :name ?name ; :dob ?dob }
Steve Harris: like CONSTRUCT JSON { { "name": ?name, "dob":?dob } } WHERE { ?x :name ?name ; :dob ?dob } ←
15:42:31 <SteveH> or whatever
Steve Harris: or whatever ←
15:42:42 <davidwood> +1 to manu
David Wood: +1 to manu ←
15:42:42 <sandro> -1 manu. Actually, I think having services which gateway RDF to WebApps is okay.
Sandro Hawke: -1 manu. Actually, I think having services which gateway RDF to WebApps is okay. ←
15:42:44 <pfps> +1 to manu
Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 to manu ←
15:42:53 <SteveH> -1 to manu
Steve Harris: -1 to manu ←
15:42:53 <pgroth> popular web technologies provide easy reciepes
Paul Groth: popular web technologies provide easy reciepes ←
15:42:58 <SteveH> q+
Steve Harris: q+ ←
15:42:59 <PatH> danbri, it all depends on what 'is' is.
Patrick Hayes: danbri, it all depends on what 'is' is. ←
15:43:09 <webr3> pgroth, +1 easy recipes
Nathan Rixham: pgroth, +1 easy recipes ←
15:43:29 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
15:43:46 <webr3> -1 we should be addressing both, seperately - and can, easily
Nathan Rixham: -1 we should be addressing both, seperately - and can, easily ←
15:43:54 <NickH> manu: we do want people to be currating the data, but we should focus on the Web Developers not on the few people with a big triplestore
Manu Sporny: we do want people to be currating the data, but we should focus on the Web Developers not on the few people with a big triplestore ←
15:43:54 <sandro> +1 to manu: we should be addressing (small) web developers
Sandro Hawke: +1 to manu: we should be addressing (small) web developers ←
15:44:28 <sandro> I'm not suggesting the gateways do any curating.
Sandro Hawke: I'm not suggesting the gateways do any curating. ←
15:45:12 <pgroth> manu, you want to just only use the json pipeline for rdf?
Paul Groth: manu, you want to just only use the json pipeline for rdf? ←
15:45:17 <PatH> lol
Patrick Hayes: lol ←
15:45:20 <davidwood> ack danbri
David Wood: ack danbri ←
15:45:20 <Zakim> danbri, you wanted to work through slideshare situation
Zakim IRC Bot: danbri, you wanted to work through slideshare situation ←
15:45:29 <SteveH> q-
Steve Harris: q- ←
15:45:48 <danbri> http://www.slideshare.net/danbri/apis-and-urls-for-social-tv
Dan Brickley: http://www.slideshare.net/danbri/apis-and-urls-for-social-tv ←
15:46:01 <danbri> http://pastebin.com/94cJE6H9
Dan Brickley: http://pastebin.com/94cJE6H9 ←
15:46:41 <webr3> following nose /SHOULD/ be huge, many people wants shared schema's between domains and the ability to look up id's easily, it just isn't hugely popular because RDF is way too complicated for most, and linked data currently focuses a lot of time on RDF, or SPARQL
Nathan Rixham: following nose /SHOULD/ be huge, many people wants shared schema's between domains and the ability to look up id's easily, it just isn't hugely popular because RDF is way too complicated for most, and linked data currently focuses a lot of time on RDF, or SPARQL ←
15:46:45 <davidwood> ack SteveH
David Wood: ack SteveH ←
15:47:01 <NickH> danbri: SlideShare do publish RDF but they are using RDFa, not JSON
Dan Brickley: SlideShare do publish RDF but they are using RDFa, not JSON ←
15:47:06 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
15:47:11 <mischat> here is more triples when you tell rapper it that the file contains rdfa : http://pastebin.com/eHq80ZQN
Mischa Tuffield: here is more triples when you tell rapper it that the file contains rdfa : http://pastebin.com/eHq80ZQN ←
15:47:12 <davidwood> ack cygri
David Wood: ack cygri ←
15:47:27 <manu> pgroth: Yes.
Paul Groth: Yes. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
15:48:30 <danbri> +1
Dan Brickley: +1 ←
15:49:18 <sandro> (I'm starting to reluctantly agree with Richard.)
Sandro Hawke: (I'm starting to reluctantly agree with Richard.) ←
15:49:20 <NickH> cygri: solving the problem of getting lots of developers to consume Linked Data is not a job for a standardisation group
Richard Cyganiak: solving the problem of getting lots of developers to consume Linked Data is not a job for a standardisation group ←
15:49:25 <cmatheus> +1
Christopher Matheus: +1 ←
15:49:29 <SteveH> +1
Steve Harris: +1 ←
15:49:35 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
15:49:38 <danbri> well, except if millions of otherwise smart developers are ignoring our tech, it might be worth exploring why
Dan Brickley: well, except if millions of otherwise smart developers are ignoring our tech, it might be worth exploring why ←
15:49:46 <NickH> Guus: we can start with a minimum solution
Guus Schreiber: we can start with a minimum solution ←
15:49:50 <LeeF> cygri +1
Lee Feigenbaum: cygri +1 ←
15:49:57 <PatH> +1. KISS.
Patrick Hayes: +1. KISS. ←
15:50:05 <yvesr> not sure i agree, standards should be made to be useful to a large extent...
Yves Raimond: not sure i agree, standards should be made to be useful to a large extent... ←
15:50:06 <zwu2> +1 to a minimum solution
Zhe Wu: +1 to a minimum solution ←
15:50:10 <webr3> +1, simple as possible
Nathan Rixham: +1, simple as possible ←
15:50:13 <PatH> (another Clinton quote, FWIW)
Patrick Hayes: (another Clinton quote, FWIW) ←
15:50:20 <manu> +1 to a minimal solution
Manu Sporny: +1 to a minimal solution ←
15:50:21 <yvesr> where useful means a large number of devs using them
Yves Raimond: where useful means a large number of devs using them ←
15:51:02 <NickH> cygri: I would peronally like to see these problems solved but I am not convinced that we have a good solution for peoplems number 1 and 2
Richard Cyganiak: I would peronally like to see these problems solved but I am not convinced that we have a good solution for peoplems number 1 and 2 ←
15:51:05 <NickH> cygri: I would peronally like to see these problems solved but I am not convinced that we have a good solution for peoplems number 1 and 3
Richard Cyganiak: I would peronally like to see these problems solved but I am not convinced that we have a good solution for peoplems number 1 and 3 ←
15:51:12 <danbri> semweb = standards + community + tools + data; if the outside world is ignoring, I'd suggest refocussing as semweb = data + tools + community + standards. The data's the prize, everything else is a means to an end.
Dan Brickley: semweb = standards + community + tools + data; if the outside world is ignoring, I'd suggest refocussing as semweb = data + tools + community + standards. The data's the prize, everything else is a means to an end. ←
15:51:34 <yvesr> danbri, +1
Yves Raimond: danbri, +1 ←
15:51:39 <danbri> jsonld = http://json-ld.org/
Dan Brickley: jsonld = http://json-ld.org/ ←
15:51:42 <webr3> danbri, +1
Nathan Rixham: danbri, +1 ←
15:51:44 <danbri> 'JSON-LD - Expressing Linked Data in JSON '
Dan Brickley: 'JSON-LD - Expressing Linked Data in JSON ' ←
15:51:46 <PatH> danbri, +10
Patrick Hayes: danbri, +10 ←
15:51:46 <NickH> 1: JSON-LD object style.
1: JSON-LD object style. ←
15:51:50 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
15:51:58 <NickH> 2: Talis JSON/RDF
2: Talis JSON/RDF ←
15:52:16 <NickH> 3: Linked Data API - we have triples but want to expose them as JSON
3: Linked Data API - we have triples but want to expose them as JSON ←
15:52:53 <danbri> I don't think most JSON enthusiasts care about NOTE vs REC
Dan Brickley: I don't think most JSON enthusiasts care about NOTE vs REC ←
15:53:04 <mischat> +1 to danbri
Mischa Tuffield: +1 to danbri ←
15:53:12 <NickH> cygri: problem 2 is fairly clear how to solve
Richard Cyganiak: problem 2 is fairly clear how to solve ←
15:54:08 <PatH> 'Note' is a black hole to drop overenthusiastic WG ideas into.
Patrick Hayes: 'Note' is a black hole to drop overenthusiastic WG ideas into. ←
15:54:31 <PatH> :-)
Patrick Hayes: :-) ←
15:54:32 <cygri> PathH lol
Richard Cyganiak: PathH lol ←
15:54:41 <NickH> CSV=http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4180.txt
CSV=http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4180.txt ←
15:54:44 <danbri> zakim, who is ringing?
Dan Brickley: zakim, who is ringing? ←
15:54:44 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, danbri.
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand your question, danbri. ←
15:54:49 <danbri> zakim, who is speaking?
Dan Brickley: zakim, who is speaking? ←
15:54:49 <manu> zakim, who is making noise?
Manu Sporny: zakim, who is making noise? ←
15:54:59 <Zakim> danbri, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Meeting_Room (45%), zwu2 (10%), OlivierCorby.aa (54%), +1.781.273.aaii (54%)
Zakim IRC Bot: danbri, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Meeting_Room (45%), zwu2 (10%), OlivierCorby.aa (54%), +1.781.273.aaii (54%) ←
15:55:09 <Zakim> manu, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: gavinc (9%), Meeting_Room (50%), OlivierCorby.aa (40%), +1.781.273.aaii (15%)
Zakim IRC Bot: manu, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: gavinc (9%), Meeting_Room (50%), OlivierCorby.aa (40%), +1.781.273.aaii (15%) ←
15:55:43 <MacTed> Zakim, aaii is OpenLink_Software
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, aaii is OpenLink_Software ←
15:55:43 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software; got it ←
15:55:43 <MacTed> zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
Ted Thibodeau: zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me ←
15:55:43 <MacTed> zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: zakim, mute me ←
15:55:44 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it ←
15:55:44 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
15:55:55 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
15:55:55 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: zwu2 should now be muted ←
15:57:07 <manu> I think guidance isn't going to do anything significant to change Linked Data's position in the world.
Manu Sporny: I think guidance isn't going to do anything significant to change Linked Data's position in the world. ←
15:57:09 <danbri> q+ to ask about json schemas
Dan Brickley: q+ to ask about json schemas ←
15:57:26 <NickH> davidwood: if we are going to give up on developers in terms of devloping a standard for consuming RDF as JSON
David Wood: if we are going to give up on developers in terms of devloping a standard for consuming RDF as JSON ←
15:57:46 <NickH> SteveH: I don't like using the phrase 'giving up on developers'
Steve Harris: I don't like using the phrase 'giving up on developers' ←
15:57:58 <manu> I think that's exactly what we're doing - "Giving up on developers"
Manu Sporny: I think that's exactly what we're doing - "Giving up on developers" ←
15:57:58 <danbri> q-
Dan Brickley: q- ←
15:58:01 <webr3> danbri, thanks.. json-schema + owl2 == success imo
Nathan Rixham: danbri, thanks.. json-schema + owl2 == success imo ←
15:58:21 <danbri> webr3, i didn't follow all the list - did it get any discussion in this wg yet?
Dan Brickley: webr3, i didn't follow all the list - did it get any discussion in this wg yet? ←
15:58:25 <SteveH> manu, where are these developers that want to consume JSON as RDF? I don't know any
Steve Harris: manu, where are these developers that want to consume JSON as RDF? I don't know any ←
15:58:37 <NickH> davidwood: we can still help developers by offering advice, rather than creating a standard
David Wood: we can still help developers by offering advice, rather than creating a standard ←
15:58:45 <SteveH> manu, ah, except cygri's Sindice usecase
Steve Harris: manu, ah, except cygri's Sindice usecase ←
15:58:46 <pchampin> @web3: just a pronostic, or have you any experience on that?
Pierre-Antoine Champin: @web3: just a pronostic, or have you any experience on that? ←
15:58:48 <webr3> danbri, not really, I've mentioned it a few times, pushback or nothing was the response
Nathan Rixham: danbri, not really, I've mentioned it a few times, pushback or nothing was the response ←
15:58:58 <SteveH> but they're RDF developers, not "web" developers
Steve Harris: but they're RDF developers, not "web" developers ←
15:59:08 <manu> SteveH: You know one company - that's us. PaySwarm is has these requirements coming down the pike very soon, which will also need this.
Steve Harris: You know one company - that's us. PaySwarm is has these requirements coming down the pike very soon, which will also need this. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
15:59:30 <SteveH> manu, ok, you'll have to explain why the triples help, offline
Steve Harris: manu, ok, you'll have to explain why the triples help, offline ←
15:59:37 <PatH> +1 to speaker
Patrick Hayes: +1 to speaker ←
15:59:50 <manu> SteveH: Yes, I think we'll have to have a phone chat at some point because I think we're speaking past each other.
Steve Harris: Yes, I think we'll have to have a phone chat at some point because I think we're speaking past each other. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
15:59:55 <sandro> +1 DavidWood: Do (2), Do (3) if someone wants to, and (1) if a good proposal emerges.
Sandro Hawke: +1 DavidWood: Do (2), Do (3) if someone wants to, and (1) if a good proposal emerges. ←
15:59:58 <webr3> pchampin, owl community are sayign it's a good thing, json schema community is saying it'd be good, just needs to happen (and it seems pretty obvious)
Nathan Rixham: pchampin, owl community are sayign it's a good thing, json schema community is saying it'd be good, just needs to happen (and it seems pretty obvious) ←
16:00:10 <SteveH> manu, yeah, I think so too
Steve Harris: manu, yeah, I think so too ←
16:00:26 <manu> Do you want to setup a time now? I have time on Friday - or early next week.
Manu Sporny: Do you want to setup a time now? I have time on Friday - or early next week. ←
16:01:21 <SteveH> manu, I can do monday afternoon, uk time
Steve Harris: manu, I can do monday afternoon, uk time ←
16:01:28 <webr3> SteveH, I'm also one, and so are most of the dev's i work with on 3 different non-rdf projects, they all want the simple benefits
Nathan Rixham: SteveH, I'm also one, and so are most of the dev's i work with on 3 different non-rdf projects, they all want the simple benefits ←
16:01:46 <danbri> so re schema-annotation/grddl-ish approach, ... i hear luke-warm mild curiousity, but no huge enthuasism here yet
Dan Brickley: so re schema-annotation/grddl-ish approach, ... i hear luke-warm mild curiousity, but no huge enthuasism here yet ←
16:01:56 <NickH> Guus: Proposal to do work on Case Type 2, starting with the Talis JSON/RDF
Guus Schreiber: Proposal to do work on Case Type 2, starting with the Talis JSON/RDF ←
16:02:13 <SteveH> webr3, but, like danbri said, consuming RDF is a pain, you really need a triplestore (even if in memory)
Steve Harris: webr3, but, like danbri said, consuming RDF is a pain, you really need a triplestore (even if in memory) ←
16:02:25 <PatH> In favor.
Patrick Hayes: In favor. ←
16:02:50 <PatH> Woot, a proposal to do something.
Patrick Hayes: Woot, a proposal to do something. ←
16:02:56 <NickH> Guus: Proposal to do work on Case Type 2, starting with the Talis JSON/RDF. Revisit 1 in the future
Guus Schreiber: Proposal to do work on Case Type 2, starting with the Talis JSON/RDF. Revisit 1 in the future ←
16:03:30 <webr3> danbri, see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Feb/0086.html (half way down)
Nathan Rixham: danbri, see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Feb/0086.html (half way down) ←
16:04:22 <webr3> deiter(?) it doesn't - it's just for a fast light over the wire RDF serialization
Nathan Rixham: deiter(?) it doesn't - it's just for a fast light over the wire RDF serialization ←
16:04:29 <sandro> PROPOSED: (1) Incubate on something like JSON-LD, (2) make a REC on something like Talis RDF/JSON, and (3) make a Note on current practice stuff like Linked Data API.
PROPOSED: (1) Incubate on something like JSON-LD, (2) make a REC on something like Talis RDF/JSON, and (3) make a Note on current practice stuff like Linked Data API. ←
16:04:45 <sandro> (got 12 +1's in the room)
Sandro Hawke: (got 12 +1's in the room) ←
16:04:50 <webr3> +1
Nathan Rixham: +1 ←
16:05:01 <manu> wait what? Did we straw-poll already?
Manu Sporny: wait what? Did we straw-poll already? ←
16:05:14 <PatH> +1
Patrick Hayes: +1 ←
16:05:15 <manu> -1
Manu Sporny: -1 ←
16:05:21 <davidwood> Manu: Please vote note
Manu Sporny: Please vote now [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ] ←
16:05:24 <zwu2> +1
16:05:25 <davidwood> s/note/now/
16:05:33 <LeeF> +1
Lee Feigenbaum: +1 ←
16:05:37 <gavinc> +0
Gavin Carothers: +0 ←
16:05:46 <PatH> +1
Patrick Hayes: +1 ←
16:05:53 <davidwood> Manu: Is that a formal objection?
Manu Sporny: Is that a formal objection? [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ] ←
16:05:56 <gavinc> (It's what we can do, not what we should do)
Gavin Carothers: (It's what we can do, not what we should do) ←
16:05:57 <danbri> can we try an exercise: compare sample client code for http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00sbqnb.json with a triples JSON syntax
Dan Brickley: can we try an exercise: compare sample client code for http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00sbqnb.json with a triples JSON syntax ←
16:05:57 <LeeF> Can we get the straw poll feeling of the people in the room recorded in the minutes, please?
Lee Feigenbaum: Can we get the straw poll feeling of the people in the room recorded in the minutes, please? ←
16:06:16 <manu> No, not a formal objection - there's much teeth grinding, but no formal objection :)
Manu Sporny: No, not a formal objection - there's much teeth grinding, but no formal objection :) ←
16:06:49 <webr3> manu, tis better than a year of fighting because there are different use cases, background, needs etc - at least there's a chance of two decent specs at the end this way
Nathan Rixham: manu, tis better than a year of fighting because there are different use cases, background, needs etc - at least there's a chance of two decent specs at the end this way ←
16:06:56 <manu> but I am a very strong -1 - I think this group is focusing on the wrong thing by focusing on the group that's already sold on using RDF/TURTLE/SPARQL/etc.
Manu Sporny: but I am a very strong -1 - I think this group is focusing on the wrong thing by focusing on the group that's already sold on using RDF/TURTLE/SPARQL/etc. ←
16:07:08 <sandro> LeeF, as I said, "(got 12 +1's in the room) " trying to characterize the room.
Sandro Hawke: LeeF, as I said, "(got 12 +1's in the room) " trying to characterize the room. ←
16:07:19 <LeeF> sandro, I don't know who that is though
Lee Feigenbaum: sandro, I don't know who that is though ←
16:07:44 <LeeF> thank you!
Lee Feigenbaum: thank you! ←
16:07:56 <sandro> PROPOSED: (1) Incubate on something like JSON-LD, (2) make a REC on something like Talis RDF/JSON, and (3) make a Note on current practice stuff like Linked Data API.
PROPOSED: (1) Incubate on something like JSON-LD, (2) make a REC on something like Talis RDF/JSON, and (3) make a Note on current practice stuff like Linked Data API. ←
16:07:59 <webr3> 1st: can you define "incubate on"
Nathan Rixham: 1st: can you define "incubate on" ←
16:08:00 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
16:08:02 <SteveH> +1
Steve Harris: +1 ←
16:08:03 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
16:08:04 <pchampin> +1
16:08:06 <LeeF> +1
Lee Feigenbaum: +1 ←
16:08:07 <mbrunati> +1
Matteo Brunati: +1 ←
16:08:07 <zwu2> +1
16:08:08 <NickH> +1
+1 ←
16:08:10 <PatH> +1
Patrick Hayes: +1 ←
16:08:11 <cmatheus> �-0
Christopher Matheus: �-0 ←
16:08:12 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
16:08:12 <gavinc> -0
Gavin Carothers: -0 ←
16:08:14 <FabGandon> +0
Fabien Gandon: +0 ←
16:08:18 <JFB> +0
Jean-François Baget: +0 ←
16:08:25 <cygri> +1
Richard Cyganiak: +1 ←
16:08:26 <manu> -1 I think this group is focusing on the wrong thing by focusing on the group that's already sold on using RDF/TURTLE/SPARQL/etc.
Manu Sporny: -1 I think this group is focusing on the wrong thing by focusing on the group that's already sold on using RDF/TURTLE/SPARQL/etc. ←
16:08:28 <danbri> manu, do you have any interest to work on json-schema-based approach?
Dan Brickley: manu, do you have any interest to work on json-schema-based approach? ←
16:08:31 <mischat> +1
Mischa Tuffield: +1 ←
16:08:35 <danbri> +1
Dan Brickley: +1 ←
16:08:37 <webr3> +1
Nathan Rixham: +1 ←
16:08:37 <NickH> sandro: it means if a good proposal comes back in a few months time, then we can do something about it
Sandro Hawke: it means if a good proposal comes back in a few months time, then we can do something about it ←
16:08:45 <manu> danbri: Perhaps - it's something we talked about internally
Dan Brickley: Perhaps - it's something we talked about internally [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
16:08:57 <webr3> danbri, manu, i really do, so does kris zip who does json schema
Nathan Rixham: danbri, manu, i really do, so does kris zip who does json schema ←
16:09:01 <sandro> sandro: "incubate on" means not spend serious WG time, but we're free to revisit it later in the life of this WG and maybe adopt it.
Sandro Hawke: "incubate on" means not spend serious WG time, but we're free to revisit it later in the life of this WG and maybe adopt it. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:09:03 <cmatheus> this sounds like it may be the only pragmatic way to proceed but to me it doesn't seem to be going far enough unless we eventully get back to something along the lines of JSON-LD
Christopher Matheus: this sounds like it may be the only pragmatic way to proceed but to me it doesn't seem to be going far enough unless we eventully get back to something along the lines of JSON-LD ←
16:09:04 <NickH> sandro: but not spend any more working group time on it for the time being
Sandro Hawke: but not spend any more working group time on it for the time being ←
16:09:07 <danbri> action: danbri follow up with manu regarding schema-based mapping of json into rdf
ACTION: danbri follow up with manu regarding schema-based mapping of json into rdf ←
16:09:08 <trackbot> Created ACTION-31 - Follow up with manu regarding schema-based mapping of json into rdf [on Dan Brickley - due 2011-04-20].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-31 - Follow up with manu regarding schema-based mapping of json into rdf [on Dan Brickley - due 2011-04-20]. ←
16:09:31 <NickH> davidwood: I don't think there is something useful we can do for the comunity for the time being
David Wood: I don't think there is something useful we can do for the comunity for the time being ←
16:09:46 <pfps> -1
16:09:48 <PatH> what is the difference between +0 and -0 ?
Patrick Hayes: what is the difference between +0 and -0 ? ←
16:10:15 <manu> PatH: +0 - you are smiling while you do it, -0 you're frowning :)
Patrick Hayes: +0 - you are smiling while you do it, -0 you're frowning :) [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
16:10:21 <PatH> Ah
Patrick Hayes: Ah ←
16:10:22 <gavinc> -0 'I won't get in the way, but I'd rather we didn't do this.'
Gavin Carothers: -0 'I won't get in the way, but I'd rather we didn't do this.' ←
16:10:27 <gavinc> +0 'I don't feel strongly about it, but I'm okay with this.'
Gavin Carothers: +0 'I don't feel strongly about it, but I'm okay with this.' ←
16:10:28 <manu> +1 to pfps
Manu Sporny: +1 to pfps ←
16:10:43 <webr3> +1 to pfps as well
Nathan Rixham: +1 to pfps as well ←
16:10:49 <JFB> Then I change my vote from +0 to -0
Jean-François Baget: Then I change my vote from +0 to -0 ←
16:11:36 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
16:11:49 <davidwood> webr3: That's what "incubate" means :)
Nathan Rixham: That's what "incubate" means :) [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ] ←
16:12:06 <webr3> davidwood, has been incubating with some for 1 year+ already
Nathan Rixham: davidwood, has been incubating with some for 1 year+ already ←
16:12:07 <PatH> Peter's concern is worth noting. If the WG can un-incubate this later, that would be a Good Thing. We should not just let it die.
Patrick Hayes: Peter's concern is worth noting. If the WG can un-incubate this later, that would be a Good Thing. We should not just let it die. ←
16:12:46 <cygri> manu +1
Richard Cyganiak: manu +1 ←
16:12:47 <davidwood> I agree that the WG should revisit
David Wood: I agree that the WG should revisit ←
16:13:41 <pchampin> q?
16:13:50 <Zakim> -AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ ←
16:14:09 <davidwood> ack cygri
David Wood: ack cygri ←
16:15:30 <NickH> cygri: a lot of the JSON discussion as been about the differences between approach 1 and approach 2. Aprooach 3 has hardly been looked at so far. Can the working group look at approach 3?
Richard Cyganiak: a lot of the JSON discussion as been about the differences between approach 1 and approach 2. Aprooach 3 has hardly been looked at so far. Can the working group look at approach 3? ←
16:16:31 <danbri> three versions of the BBC program description from yvesr & co: http://svn.foaf-project.org/foaftown/2011/rdfwg/
Dan Brickley: three versions of the BBC program description from yvesr & co: http://svn.foaf-project.org/foaftown/2011/rdfwg/ ←
16:16:58 <PatH> Sandro, relax. You are making me dizzy.
Patrick Hayes: Sandro, relax. You are making me dizzy. ←
16:17:06 <sandro> :-)
Sandro Hawke: :-) ←
16:17:09 <PatH> BUt thanks.
Patrick Hayes: BUt thanks. ←
16:17:24 <PatH> LOL
Patrick Hayes: LOL ←
16:17:58 <PatH> is of is not?
Patrick Hayes: is of is not? ←
16:18:05 <PatH> of/or
Patrick Hayes: of/or ←
16:18:18 <webr3> yvesr, it's not it's "RDF Web Applications WG"
Nathan Rixham: yvesr, it's not it's "RDF Web Applications WG" ←
16:19:04 <Zakim> +AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ ←
16:19:13 <AZ> zakim, mute me
Antoine Zimmermann: zakim, mute me ←
16:19:13 <Zakim> AZ should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: AZ should now be muted ←
16:20:18 <sandro> RESOLVED: (1) Incubate on something like JSON-LD, (2) make a REC on something like Talis RDF/JSON, and (3) make a Note on current practice stuff like Linked Data API.
RESOLVED: (1) Incubate on something like JSON-LD, (2) make a REC on something like Talis RDF/JSON, and (3) make a Note on current practice stuff like Linked Data API. ←
16:20:40 <NickH> manu: I can't accept the decision and plan to go and talk to JSON providers and see what will work with them
Manu Sporny: I can accept the decision and plan to go and talk to JSON providers and see what will work with them ←
16:21:07 <sandro> s/can't/can/
16:21:08 <danbri> fyi json-ld list is at http://groups.google.com/group/json-ld
Dan Brickley: fyi json-ld list is at http://groups.google.com/group/json-ld ←
16:21:24 <NickH> mischat: oops
Mischa Tuffield: oops ←
16:21:38 <NickH> manu: I can accept the decision and plan to go and talk to JSON providers and see what will work with them
Manu Sporny: I can accept the decision and plan to go and talk to JSON providers and see what will work with them ←
16:21:54 <sandro> discussing possible public-rdf-json mailing list
Sandro Hawke: discussing possible public-rdf-json mailing list ←
16:22:22 <webr3> which group would it be associated with?
Nathan Rixham: which group would it be associated with? ←
16:22:32 <webr3> (or none)
Nathan Rixham: (or none) ←
16:22:36 <sandro> ACTION: sandro to make public-rdf-json@w3.org
ACTION: sandro to make public-rdf-json@w3.org ←
16:22:36 <trackbot> Created ACTION-32 - Make public-rdf-json@w3.org [on Sandro Hawke - due 2011-04-20].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-32 - Make public-rdf-json@w3.org [on Sandro Hawke - due 2011-04-20]. ←
16:22:54 <Zakim> -LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: -LeeF ←
16:22:58 <zwu2> bye, time to sleep now.
Zhe Wu: bye, time to sleep now. ←
16:23:02 <Zakim> -zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2 ←
16:23:05 <NickH> davidwood: we should create a W3C mailing list for investigation into RDF JSON
David Wood: we should create a W3C mailing list for investigation into RDF JSON ←
16:23:29 <sandro> manu, or maybe the list should be called something else, to separate it as this kind of JSON....?
Sandro Hawke: manu, or maybe the list should be called something else, to separate it as this kind of JSON....? ←
16:23:36 <NickH> guus: brainstorm - what breakout topics should we go for
Guus Schreiber: brainstorm - what breakout topics should we go for ←
16:23:43 <NickH> tomorrow
tomorrow ←
16:23:48 <sandro> public-rdf-view-of-json :-)
Sandro Hawke: public-rdf-view-of-json :-) ←
16:23:58 <webr3> @sandro, could the list also be used for the owl+json-schema possible work/discussions that are going on too? (re the name)
Nathan Rixham: @sandro, could the list also be used for the owl+json-schema possible work/discussions that are going on too? (re the name) ←
16:24:19 <sandro> I think so.
Sandro Hawke: I think so. ←
16:24:23 <manu> I'm concerned about having 'rdf' in the name of the mailing list :)
Manu Sporny: I'm concerned about having 'rdf' in the name of the mailing list :) ←
16:24:30 <webr3> snap
Nathan Rixham: snap ←
16:24:33 <manu> 'public-linked-data-json'
Manu Sporny: 'public-linked-data-json' ←
16:24:34 <PatH> name, rjdsfon
Patrick Hayes: name, rjdsfon ←
16:24:44 <manu> 'public-linked-json'
Manu Sporny: 'public-linked-json' ←
16:24:57 <sandro> Yes..... I like that.
Sandro Hawke: Yes..... I like that. ←
16:25:48 <webr3> likewise
Nathan Rixham: likewise ←
16:26:08 <sandro> question whether it's a task force of this WG and still covered by the W3C patent policy or not.
Sandro Hawke: question whether it's a task force of this WG and still covered by the W3C patent policy or not. ←
16:26:56 <sandro> in-wg gets patent policy; out-of-wg gets everyone to join.
Sandro Hawke: in-wg gets patent policy; out-of-wg gets everyone to join. ←
16:27:07 <sandro> No, no one is scribing. Trying to figuoure out breakouts.
Sandro Hawke: No, no one is scribing. Trying to figuoure out breakouts. ←
16:27:12 <webr3> @sandro, community group for it?
Nathan Rixham: @sandro, community group for it? ←
16:27:42 <gavinc> Which break outs will have a phone?
Gavin Carothers: Which break outs will have a phone? ←
16:28:04 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is talking? ←
16:28:04 <mischat> zakim, who is making noise ?
Mischa Tuffield: zakim, who is making noise ? ←
16:28:13 <PatH> Sounds like wqe are now a fax machine
Patrick Hayes: Sounds like wqe are now a fax machine ←
16:28:15 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: gavinc (9%), Meeting_Room (54%)
Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: gavinc (9%), Meeting_Room (54%) ←
16:28:26 <Zakim> mischat, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: gavinc (35%), Meeting_Room (15%)
Zakim IRC Bot: mischat, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: gavinc (35%), Meeting_Room (15%) ←
16:28:44 <manu> I have to run - thanks for the meeting all - sorry I couldn't be there F2F :)
Manu Sporny: I have to run - thanks for the meeting all - sorry I couldn't be there F2F :) ←
16:29:21 <mischat> bye manu
Mischa Tuffield: bye manu ←
16:29:23 <sandro> guus: Start tomorrow with 2 hours on 4 critical issues on GRAPHS.
Guus Schreiber: Start tomorrow with 2 hours on 4 critical issues on GRAPHS. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:29:40 <PatH> What time is that 'start' tomorrow?
Patrick Hayes: What time is that 'start' tomorrow? ←
16:30:30 <webr3> will skolem breakout be on zakim?
Nathan Rixham: will skolem breakout be on zakim? ←
16:30:31 <pfps> 9:30 Amstertam
Peter Patel-Schneider: 9:30 Amstertam ←
16:30:45 <sandro> no clear we'll do the Skolem breakout.
Sandro Hawke: no clear we'll do the Skolem breakout. ←
16:31:07 <PatH> So just to be clear, 9.30 Amsterdam for the 2-houir on graph ccritical issues?
Patrick Hayes: So just to be clear, 9.30 Amsterdam for the 2-houir on graph ccritical issues? ←
16:31:26 <AZ> enjoy your dinner, bye
Antoine Zimmermann: enjoy your dinner, bye ←
16:31:34 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller] ←
16:31:39 <PatH> Enjoy your dinner and walks.
Patrick Hayes: Enjoy your dinner and walks. ←
16:31:43 <Zakim> -AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ ←
16:32:31 <gavinc> Okay, see everyone in the morning.
Gavin Carothers: Okay, see everyone in the morning. ←
16:32:39 <Zakim> -gavinc
Zakim IRC Bot: -gavinc ←
16:32:52 <Zakim> -PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: -PatH ←
16:32:53 <Zakim> -MacTed
Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed ←
16:33:35 <Zakim> -Meeting_Room
Zakim IRC Bot: -Meeting_Room ←
16:34:57 <Zakim> -manu
Zakim IRC Bot: -manu ←
16:39:10 <Zakim> - +1.603.897.aahh
Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.603.897.aahh ←
Formatted by CommonScribe
This revision (#10) generated 2011-04-20 17:03:46 UTC by 'ppatelsc', comments: 'add pointer to subsequent issue-12 disscussion'