EOWG minutes for 26 Mar 2010

Training Examples - Accessible website development (3 day hands-on workshop for web developers)

<shawn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/training/2009/scenarios.html#eg5outline

Andrew: for experienced web developers to give trainings
... starts with a broader audience on the first day
... then focuses on the technical developers in later days

Shawn: should that be better reflected in the title?

Andrew: good idea, tough to get in a short line

William: says it in the first line

Andrew: maybe expand the title -- add "with other staff" in the brackets

<shawn> ACTION: Andrew - title Accessible website development (3 day hands-on workshop for web developers, with intro for others) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/26-eo-minutes.html#action01]

William: what does hands-on mean?

Andrew: they get to do stuff

William: isn't that a workshop

Andrew: not always

<shawn> ACTION: Andrew - title OR Accessible website development (3 day hands-on workshop) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/26-eo-minutes.html#action02]

Shadi: what about removing "for developers"?

Shawn: comments on the learning objectives?

Shadi: maybe look at layout and structure of the section to make it more manageable

<shawn> ACTION: Andrew - make "See the following Topics for resources, notes, and other details:" an <h3> (throughout) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/26-eo-minutes.html#action03]

Shawn: should "see the following topics" be <h3>?

Shadi: section long and dense, hard to process for people new to it

<Andrew> ACTION: Training Eg5 - add directions like: below are LO's, Topics utilised, and a Sample outline (linked) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/26-eo-minutes.html#action04]

Shawn: outline -- how are the groupings and titles working?

Sylvie: good structure, we often take a similar approach in our trainings

Liam: appeal for more time for content authors
... last line of defense, we spend a lot of time with them

Shawn: how often are content authors helped by authoring tools?

Liam: often responsibility is with the content authors

Liam: 2nd day content authors, third day developers

Heather: that could work

Shadi: usually hard to get content authors and developers in the same room, especially for such initial workshops

Liam: true, but issue is that the way this is set up it assumes that content authors can rely on the developers to keep them from doing mistakes

Shawn: could have content authors as a follow-up workshop, with focus on the organization's tools and templates

Liam: there are good generic skills though, like how to write headings, front-loading information, links, etc

<Andrew> ACTION: training EG5 - in Scenario (and a reminder at the end maybe) about this being a first workshop and a follow up may be appropriate for content preparers as QA line of defence and working more with their CMS/ autoring tool on Accessibility checking and reinforcing their role in developing and publishing accessible content [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/26-eo-minutes.html#action05]

Shadi: part 1 & 2 are clear, later sections are lumped together
... makes it more difficult to read and to adapt
... propose to provide full agenda for the three days
... with each session separately outlined

Liam: hmmm, yes, i think, i agree

Andrew: some felt it may be too restrictive

Shawn: true but maybe swinging off too far
... one of the use cases is procuring training
... good to have some rough timeline to compare to

<Andrew> ACTION: training Eg5 - add wieghtings (approx timings) for Day 2/3 - break table into modular rows [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/26-eo-minutes.html#action06]

Shadi: attendees seems exclusive -- maybe "target audience"?

<shawn> Shadi: maybe instead of "Attendees" -> "Target audience" (sound like "attendees" means others not invited)

Andrew: agree but maybe jargon

<LiamM> aimed at

<LiamM> best for

<Andrew> primary audience

intended audience

<Andrew> ACTION: Training Eg5 - consider the term "attendees" and options in minutes [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/26-eo-minutes.html#action07]

<sylvie> yes

<Andrew> ACTION: Training Eg5 - get feedback on detail from experienced EO trainers [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/26-eo-minutes.html#action08]

<Andrew> shadi: should work out an agenda for the 3 days - so that it could be taken and used "as is"

<Andrew> ... remove "Include some or all of the following to suit the audience" to a note

<Andrew> ... and the instruction and resources for Content & Development

Shawn: overlap and cross-ties between the topics not always clear
... some topics like "evaluation" or "usability" are horizontal and treated in all sessions

Andrew: Task Force had similar thoughts

<Andrew> shadi: reconsider how & where to include WCAG 2

Shadi: "WCAG 2.0" in day 2&3 may be a horizontal topic, or may need to be earlier in the agenda

How to Make Presentations Accessible

http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/training/access_pres

Shawn: overall reactions/comments?
... size? format? level of detail?
... questions from Agenda
... meetings - anything that would be different? Extra?

Liam: just f2f?

Shawn: yes - scoping just to face to face (not telephone, online, etc)

Liam: minuting - but function of meetings are decision making
... need to make sure minutes are accesisble, and need to be sure everyone understands when it's a "voting moment"

shawn: Heather was thinking of 'meetings' when others were thinking of 'presentation'

Liam: think a meeting is fundamentally different in process from presentation

Shawn: but would the guidance be different?

Liam: a presentaion is covered, not sure other sorts of meetings need coveriing

shadi: have attended several events called meetings that were in fact more presentation or even workshops
... in internal company meetings, I think people would be sensible enough not to be exclusionary

Liam: just wouldn't like to see a whole otehr section for meetings

Shawn: just in intro mentioning that this will help in different situations
... if we say this is coveriing "training", is there stuff missing?

Liam: group work - background music (good for some, bad for hearing aid users), props (who can see them), sticky-note sorting, etc
... so broad that it is hard to be comprehensive

<LiamM> my general point is that meetings and training are such broad areas that it's tremendously hard to be at all comprehensive. We are looking at presentation-like meetings and presentation-like training.

Shadi: what we have covers presentation style ratehr than activities

<LiamM> rather than all types of meeting or all types of training

<shawn> currently it says: Consider activities.

<shawn> Remember accessibility issues with any participant activities (arranging sticky notes, small group projects, etc.).

Shadi: started thinking about international situations, cultural, etc
... preparing Slides & preparing materials might need to be highlighted (drawn out) more
... difference between how slides look & what you distribute
... eg what often comes out in 'meetings' is accessibility of slides - not so essential in a presentation if not being distributed (just visual appearance)
... accessible slides for distribution is different from accesible slides that you are taking to
... and maybe need to darw out activities and handouts more/separately

<shawn> ACTION: Shawn - separate out projected material and handout material - noting that handout material could be accessible version of the projected material [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/26-eo-minutes.html#action09]

shawn: became repetetive - but could draw out less repetetively

Shawn: under planing, we have 'consider activities' as a very vague section with just a hint about accessibility

liam: like having it just as a reminder with no detail

Andrew: agrees with Shawn and Liam

Shadi: external links will be intersting to tackle
... PPT, PDF, etc

Shawn: in "for more info" there is an option to link to more resources - not sure if we have a good enough idea for this yet
... some reference we collected are too specific and detailed

Andrew: would be nice to include links for some technologies if we can - but quality, detail and persistance is an issue

Shadi: maybe as a separate page

Shawn: title and 'catchy intro'
... "how to ..." is currently used

Liam: no objections

Sahdi: like the title & the catchy intro
... did not expect this in a WAI doc, but it works well to grab the reader
... summarises the doc in a small e.g. that most could relate to

shawn: in a W3C meeting recently I gave a link to this page, and Dan Connolly suggested a version of the catchy intro
... are we comfortable with this? any suggested tweaks?

Sylvie: be aware that some may not be able to perceive your presentation - and then mention see/hear/etc
... in Introduction - if we start there, no mention of talk/presentation/etc (eg purpose)

shawn: have some text before the Introduction

<shawn> ACTION: shawn - catchy intro under into <h2>? [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/26-eo-minutes.html#action10]

Sylvie: if combined, it works
... and like the first sentence better than the one in []

William: is this just for presenters? or for setting up etc?

Shawn: focussed for presenters, but covers some other factors that might fall to an organiser or planner

Liam: should include a catchy intro on all docs!

Andrew: like it as way to encourage readers to keep reading

Shawn: overall - too much? too scary? too daunting?
... can we make it more digestible and not like its too much to do?

Andrew: agrees with Liam that it's about right

shadi: thinking about ageing related impairments - just saying older users may not be enough

<shawn> ACTION: shawn - use the word "inclusive" in the intro [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/26-eo-minutes.html#action11]

shadi: adding "inclusive" might be good - common in Europe

shawn: agree, but wonder if we need to spell out more on ageing or not - maybe "inclusive" is enough?

<shawn> ACTION: shawn - add to wishlist: if do as BD, include "...checklists online to help ensure a facility is accessible" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/26-eo-minutes.html#action12]

William: what about the "checklists"? should we be linking to any?

Shawn: we are not providing details about accessible facilities - but wanted to encourage them to seek out as appropriate

<shadi> [[This page helps you make your presentations, talks, meetings, and training inclusive to all of your potential audience, especially people with disabilities and older users.]]

Shawn: received some other comments off list that I'll consider - might be too detailed
... under planning we "Ask if participants have accessibility requirements." - same detail could be covered here easily
... e.g. add "and how best to meet their needs"

shadi: wondereing about another catch-all category
... facility is accessible

<shawn> ACTION: shawn - add another catch-all - maybe broader than "facilities" ? [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/26-eo-minutes.html#action13]

shadi: blackboard, flip chart, seating, ... in the meeting/presentation facilities vs the building in general
... complementary issues

<shawn> ACTION: shawn - add expand "Ask if participants have accessibility requirements." - ask what specific things would be good for them [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/26-eo-minutes.html#action14]

Shadi: good job - looking really nice

Liam: seconded

Andrew: agrees too

Shawn: might take another pass and then publish as draft for public comment
... so speak up now (or really soon)

Sylvie: would be intersting to talk more about accessible materials for the presentation - before the meeting you can have material in e-format for some to follow during the meeting

Shawn: will separate this out
... already have: Offer "slides", handouts, and other material in alternative formats
... such as (various formats)

Liam: suggest web code-> i.e. web pages

shadi: if separated, then do we want to mention other materials (e.g. goody bag)
... are we putting too much together?

shawn: braille may be daunting for many, but if you do HTML might work for many

Andrew: many folk prefer other electronic formats for portability and to follow along

Shadi: may need to mention other formats

planning ahead

Shawn: please be sure to fill in the attendance survey
... with next week being Good friday we probably won't have a meeting - spend your time reviewing and emailing

<Zakim> shadi, you wanted to mention "provide induction loop if needed" under arrange "microphone"

<shawn> ACTION: shawn -consider you wanted to mention "provide induction loop if needed" under arrange "microphone" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/26-eo-minutes.html#action15]