<scribenick> PRESENT:bcuencagrau, bmotik, ewallace, alanr, IanH, MarkusK_, Christine, zimmer, Rinke, pfps, sandro,bijan, msmith, Michael Schneider,uli, Achille, Jie, Zhe
<scribenick> CHAIR: Alan Ruttenberg
16:52:50 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/22-owl-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/22-owl-irc ←
16:52:55 <Rinke> Zakim, this is owl
Rinke Hoekstra: Zakim, this is owl ←
16:52:55 <Zakim> Rinke, I see SW_OWL()1:00PM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be owl".
Zakim IRC Bot: Rinke, I see SW_OWL()1:00PM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be owl". ←
16:53:02 <Rinke> Zakim, this will be owl
Rinke Hoekstra: Zakim, this will be owl ←
16:53:02 <Zakim> ok, Rinke; I see SW_OWL()1:00PM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Rinke; I see SW_OWL()1:00PM scheduled to start in 7 minutes ←
16:53:16 <Rinke> RRSAgent, make records public
Rinke Hoekstra: RRSAgent, make records public ←
16:56:28 <Zakim> SW_OWL()1:00PM has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_OWL()1:00PM has now started ←
16:56:29 <Zakim> +??P4
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P4 ←
16:57:04 <Zakim> SW_OWL()1:00PM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_OWL()1:00PM has ended ←
16:57:05 <Zakim> Attendees were
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were ←
16:57:21 <Zakim> SW_OWL()1:00PM has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_OWL()1:00PM has now started ←
16:57:22 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider
Zakim IRC Bot: +Peter_Patel-Schneider ←
16:58:07 <Zakim> +??P5
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P5 ←
16:58:08 <Zakim> -??P5
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P5 ←
16:58:08 <Zakim> +??P5
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P5 ←
16:58:12 <IanH> Well, in two minutes presumably
Ian Horrocks: Well, in two minutes presumably ←
16:58:12 <Christine> Zakim, ??P5 is me
Christine Golbreich: Zakim, ??P5 is me ←
16:58:12 <Zakim> +Christine; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Christine; got it ←
16:59:08 <Zakim> +IanH
Zakim IRC Bot: +IanH ←
16:59:30 <Zakim> +??P8
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P8 ←
16:59:33 <Rinke> zakim, ??P8 is me
Rinke Hoekstra: zakim, ??P8 is me ←
16:59:33 <Zakim> +Rinke; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Rinke; got it ←
16:59:34 <alanr> zakim, who is here?
Alan Ruttenberg: zakim, who is here? ←
16:59:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Christine, IanH, Rinke
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Christine, IanH, Rinke ←
16:59:37 <Zakim> On IRC I see alanr, IanH, MarkusK_, Christine, RRSAgent, Zakim, zimmer, Rinke, pfps, sandro, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see alanr, IanH, MarkusK_, Christine, RRSAgent, Zakim, zimmer, Rinke, pfps, sandro, trackbot ←
16:59:37 <Rinke> zakim, mute me
Rinke Hoekstra: zakim, mute me ←
16:59:37 <Zakim> Rinke should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Rinke should now be muted ←
16:59:39 <IanH> IanH has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2009.04.22/Agenda
Ian Horrocks: IanH has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2009.04.22/Agenda ←
16:59:46 <Zakim> +??P9
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P9 ←
16:59:51 <IanH> Zakim, this will be owlwg
Ian Horrocks: Zakim, this will be owlwg ←
16:59:51 <Zakim> ok, IanH; I see SW_OWL()1:00PM scheduled to start in 1 minute
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, IanH; I see SW_OWL()1:00PM scheduled to start in 1 minute ←
17:00:01 <IanH> RRSAgent, make records public
Ian Horrocks: RRSAgent, make records public ←
17:01:13 <IanH> ScribeNick: cgolbrei
(Scribe set to Christine Golbreich)
17:01:21 <alanr> zakim, who is here?
Alan Ruttenberg: zakim, who is here? ←
17:01:21 <Zakim> I notice SW_OWL()1:00PM has restarted
Zakim IRC Bot: I notice SW_OWL()1:00PM has restarted ←
17:01:22 <Zakim> On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Christine, IanH, Rinke (muted), ??P9, +3539149aaaa, jar, bmotik
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Christine, IanH, Rinke (muted), ??P9, +3539149aaaa, jar, bmotik ←
17:01:24 <Zakim> On IRC I see bcuencagrau, bmotik, ewallace, alanr, IanH, MarkusK_, Christine, RRSAgent, Zakim, zimmer, Rinke, pfps, sandro, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see bcuencagrau, bmotik, ewallace, alanr, IanH, MarkusK_, Christine, RRSAgent, Zakim, zimmer, Rinke, pfps, sandro, trackbot ←
17:01:28 <alanr> zakim, jar is alanr
Alan Ruttenberg: zakim, jar is alanr ←
17:01:28 <Zakim> +alanr; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +alanr; got it ←
17:01:49 <Zakim> +bmotik.a
Zakim IRC Bot: +bmotik.a ←
17:02:03 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
Ian Horrocks: zakim, who is here? ←
17:02:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Christine, IanH, Rinke (muted), ??P9, +3539149aaaa, alanr, bmotik, bmotik.a
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Christine, IanH, Rinke (muted), ??P9, +3539149aaaa, alanr, bmotik, bmotik.a ←
17:02:05 <Zakim> On IRC I see bcuencagrau, bmotik, ewallace, alanr, IanH, MarkusK_, Christine, RRSAgent, Zakim, zimmer, Rinke, pfps, sandro, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see bcuencagrau, bmotik, ewallace, alanr, IanH, MarkusK_, Christine, RRSAgent, Zakim, zimmer, Rinke, pfps, sandro, trackbot ←
17:02:15 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.603.897.aabb ←
17:02:28 <bmotik> Zakim, bmotik.a is bcuencagrau
Boris Motik: Zakim, bmotik.a is bcuencagrau ←
17:02:28 <Zakim> +bcuencagrau; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +bcuencagrau; got it ←
17:02:31 <Zakim> +Evan_Wallace
Zakim IRC Bot: +Evan_Wallace ←
17:02:32 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
Boris Motik: Zakim, mute me ←
17:02:33 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bmotik should now be muted ←
17:02:35 <bcuencagrau> Zakim, bmotik.a is bcuencagrau
Bernardo Cuenca Grau: Zakim, bmotik.a is bcuencagrau ←
17:02:35 <Zakim> sorry, bcuencagrau, I do not recognize a party named 'bmotik.a'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, bcuencagrau, I do not recognize a party named 'bmotik.a' ←
17:03:00 <zimmer> zakim, +1.603.897.aabb is me
Antoine Zimmermann: zakim, +1.603.897.aabb is me ←
17:03:00 <Zakim> +zimmer; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +zimmer; got it ←
17:03:08 <bcuencagrau> Zakim, mute me
Bernardo Cuenca Grau: Zakim, mute me ←
17:03:08 <Zakim> bcuencagrau should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bcuencagrau should now be muted ←
17:03:09 <alanr> zakim, who is here?
Alan Ruttenberg: zakim, who is here? ←
17:03:09 <Zakim> On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Christine, IanH, Rinke (muted), MarkusK_, +3539149aaaa, alanr, bmotik (muted), bcuencagrau (muted), zimmer, Evan_Wallace
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Christine, IanH, Rinke (muted), MarkusK_, +3539149aaaa, alanr, bmotik (muted), bcuencagrau (muted), zimmer, Evan_Wallace ←
17:03:13 <Zakim> On IRC I see bcuencagrau, bijan, Zhe, uli, bmotik, ewallace, alanr, IanH, MarkusK_, Christine, RRSAgent, Zakim, zimmer, Rinke, pfps, sandro, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see bcuencagrau, bijan, Zhe, uli, bmotik, ewallace, alanr, IanH, MarkusK_, Christine, RRSAgent, Zakim, zimmer, Rinke, pfps, sandro, trackbot ←
17:03:14 <bmotik> -q
Boris Motik: -q ←
17:03:35 <Zakim> +??P16
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P16 ←
17:03:36 <alanr> zakim, who is here?
Alan Ruttenberg: zakim, who is here? ←
17:03:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Christine, IanH, Rinke (muted), MarkusK_, +3539149aaaa, alanr, bmotik (muted), bcuencagrau (muted), zimmer, Evan_Wallace, ??P16
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Christine, IanH, Rinke (muted), MarkusK_, +3539149aaaa, alanr, bmotik (muted), bcuencagrau (muted), zimmer, Evan_Wallace, ??P16 ←
17:03:40 <Zakim> On IRC I see bcuencagrau, bijan, Zhe, uli, bmotik, ewallace, alanr, IanH, MarkusK_, Christine, RRSAgent, Zakim, zimmer, Rinke, pfps, sandro, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see bcuencagrau, bijan, Zhe, uli, bmotik, ewallace, alanr, IanH, MarkusK_, Christine, RRSAgent, Zakim, zimmer, Rinke, pfps, sandro, trackbot ←
17:03:41 <Zakim> +??P17
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P17 ←
17:03:42 <uli> zakim, ??P16 is me
Uli Sattler: zakim, ??P16 is me ←
17:03:43 <Zakim> +uli; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +uli; got it ←
17:03:47 <uli> zakim, mute me
Uli Sattler: zakim, mute me ←
17:03:47 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: uli should now be muted ←
17:03:58 <bijan> zakim, ??P17 is me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, ??P17 is me ←
17:03:58 <Zakim> +bijan; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +bijan; got it ←
17:04:33 <Christine> Topic: Admin
17:04:34 <pfps> alanr: agenda amendments are in the agenda
Alan Ruttenberg: agenda amendments are in the agenda [ Scribe Assist by Peter Patel-Schneider ] ←
17:04:59 <Zakim> +msmith
Zakim IRC Bot: +msmith ←
17:05:16 <pfps> minutes look OK
Peter Patel-Schneider: minutes look OK ←
17:05:24 <IanH> alanr: will take amended agenda items at appropriate place in agenda
Alan Ruttenberg: will take amended agenda items at appropriate place in agenda [ Scribe Assist by Ian Horrocks ] ←
17:05:43 <alanr> PROPOSED: accept minutes of (15 April)
PROPOSED: accept minutes of (15 April) ←
17:05:51 <Rinke> +1
Rinke Hoekstra: +1 ←
17:05:52 <IanH> +1
Ian Horrocks: +1 ←
17:05:54 <pfps> +1
17:06:00 <alanr> RESOLVED: accept minutes of (15 April)
RESOLVED: accept minutes of (15 April) ←
17:06:02 <ewallace> +1
Evan Wallace: +1 ←
17:06:13 <bijan> +1
Bijan Parsia: +1 ←
17:06:23 <Christine> Topic: Documents and Reviewing
17:07:09 <IanH> q+
Ian Horrocks: q+ ←
17:07:15 <alanr> ack IanH
Alan Ruttenberg: ack IanH ←
17:07:51 <IanH> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Round_6#Publicity_Tracking
Ian Horrocks: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Round_6#Publicity_Tracking ←
17:08:29 <Christine> Ianh: send publicty please
Ian Horrocks: send publicty please ←
17:08:51 <Zakim> +Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro ←
17:08:51 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
17:08:53 <sandro> sorry I'm late.....
Sandro Hawke: sorry I'm late..... ←
17:09:40 <Christine> Subtopic: LC Working Drafts
17:10:07 <pfps> q+
17:10:12 <Christine> Ianh: minimise changes at this point
Ian Horrocks: minimise changes at this point ←
17:10:15 <alanr> ack pfps
Alan Ruttenberg: ack pfps ←
17:10:19 <Zakim> +[IBM]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IBM] ←
17:10:27 <bijan> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
17:10:36 <alanr> ack bijan
Alan Ruttenberg: ack bijan ←
17:10:45 <Achille> zakim, IBM is me
Achille Fokoue: zakim, IBM is me ←
17:10:45 <Zakim> +Achille; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Achille; got it ←
17:11:14 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
17:11:23 <IanH> q+
Ian Horrocks: q+ ←
17:11:28 <alanr> ack IanH
Alan Ruttenberg: ack IanH ←
17:12:45 <IanH> bijan: I wanted to make some changes to XML syntax
Bijan Parsia: I wanted to make some changes to XML syntax [ Scribe Assist by Ian Horrocks ] ←
17:13:05 <IanH> ian: do it off line and upload after LC period is over
Ian Horrocks: do it off line and upload after LC period is over [ Scribe Assist by Ian Horrocks ] ←
17:13:06 <uli> what about the tables?
Uli Sattler: what about the tables? ←
17:13:49 <IanH> alanr: accessibility audit?
Alan Ruttenberg: accessibility audit? [ Scribe Assist by Ian Horrocks ] ←
17:14:00 <IanH> bijan: will try to have it done before CR
Bijan Parsia: will try to have it done before CR [ Scribe Assist by Ian Horrocks ] ←
17:14:38 <sandro> I'm surprised an empty alt tag is preferable to a brief explanation (eg "UML diagram corresponding to grammar Foo")
Sandro Hawke: I'm surprised an empty alt tag is preferable to a brief explanation (eg "UML diagram corresponding to grammar Foo") ←
17:14:56 <IanH> alanr: bijan will add an action for about 1 month out to do accessibility audit
Alan Ruttenberg: bijan will add an action for about 1 month out to do accessibility audit [ Scribe Assist by Ian Horrocks ] ←
17:15:27 <IanH> bijan: alt tag provides replacement text; may not be needed
Bijan Parsia: alt tag provides replacement text; may not be needed [ Scribe Assist by Ian Horrocks ] ←
17:15:32 <bijan> Action on: bijan to do accessibility audit in one month
Bijan Parsia: Action on: bijan to do accessibility audit in one month ←
17:15:32 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - on
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - on ←
17:15:35 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
17:15:37 <sandro> bijan: empty alt tags are, I think, the right thing when the diagrams provide no additional information.
Bijan Parsia: empty alt tags are, I think, the right thing when the diagrams provide no additional information. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
17:15:41 <IanH> alanr: Bijan can report back in 1 month
Alan Ruttenberg: Bijan can report back in 1 month [ Scribe Assist by Ian Horrocks ] ←
17:15:50 <Christine> Action: Bijan to about 1 month out to do accessibility audit
ACTION: Bijan to about 1 month out to do accessibility audit ←
17:15:50 <trackbot> Created ACTION-331 - About 1 month out to do accessibility audit [on Bijan Parsia - due 2009-04-29].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-331 - About 1 month out to do accessibility audit [on Bijan Parsia - due 2009-04-29]. ←
17:16:09 <Christine> Subtopic: First Public or Ordinary Working Drafts
17:16:12 <IanH> alanr: LC till 12 May; short period; tell people they need to comment ASAP
Alan Ruttenberg: LC till 12 May; short period; tell people they need to comment ASAP [ Scribe Assist by Ian Horrocks ] ←
17:16:36 <alanr> qrg, nf&r, primer, doc overvier, manch, datarange extension
Alan Ruttenberg: qrg, nf&r, primer, doc overvier, manch, datarange extension ←
17:16:57 <IanH> alanr: status reports on these docs
Alan Ruttenberg: status reports on these docs [ Scribe Assist by Ian Horrocks ] ←
17:17:06 <Christine> Alanr: QRG ?
Alan Ruttenberg: QRG ? ←
17:17:08 <Rinke> NB The Wiki frontpage needs to be updated with links to the correct versions of documents (it currently lists only the old WD's)
Rinke Hoekstra: NB The Wiki frontpage needs to be updated with links to the correct versions of documents (it currently lists only the old WD's) ←
17:17:16 <pfps> q+
17:17:22 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
17:17:25 <alanr> ack pfps
Alan Ruttenberg: ack pfps ←
17:17:34 <IanH> pfps: QRG being pulled in several directions
Peter Patel-Schneider: QRG being pulled in several directions [ Scribe Assist by Ian Horrocks ] ←
17:17:54 <IanH> ... not sure I can see path forward
Ian Horrocks: ... not sure I can see path forward ←
17:18:06 <bijan> Common stuff rather than comprehensive
Bijan Parsia: Common stuff rather than comprehensive ←
17:18:09 <IanH> ... recent changes going in wrong direction -- e.g., getting longer
Ian Horrocks: ... recent changes going in wrong direction -- e.g., getting longer ←
17:18:11 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
17:18:21 <Christine> +q
+q ←
17:18:27 <bijan> I share a lot of pov with peter
Bijan Parsia: I share a lot of pov with peter ←
17:18:35 <IanH> Me too
Ian Horrocks: Me too ←
17:18:48 <bijan> I concur with Alan on reasonable layout possibility
Bijan Parsia: I concur with Alan on reasonable layout possibility ←
17:18:59 <bijan> q+ to say something on layout
Bijan Parsia: q+ to say something on layout ←
17:19:03 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
17:19:17 <alanr> ack Christine
Alan Ruttenberg: ack Christine ←
17:19:30 <IanH> christine: what process will we use for QRG?
Christine Golbreich: what process will we use for QRG? [ Scribe Assist by Ian Horrocks ] ←
17:19:39 <IanH> ... many different suggestions/directions
Ian Horrocks: ... many different suggestions/directions ←
17:19:39 <Christine> Alanr: needs review
Alan Ruttenberg: needs review ←
17:19:43 <alanr> ack bijan
Alan Ruttenberg: ack bijan ←
17:19:43 <Zakim> bijan, you wanted to say something on layout
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan, you wanted to say something on layout ←
17:20:21 <IanH> bijan: concerned that to achieve right layout may require substantive reworking of content
Bijan Parsia: concerned that to achieve right layout may require substantive reworking of content [ Scribe Assist by Ian Horrocks ] ←
17:20:31 <IanH> ... at least in order to make CSS reasonable
Ian Horrocks: ... at least in order to make CSS reasonable ←
17:20:54 <IanH> ... review of layout might be next thing to do
Ian Horrocks: ... review of layout might be next thing to do ←
17:21:07 <uli> peter, "as we TC"?
Uli Sattler: peter, "as we TC"? ←
17:21:40 <pfps> I'll review QRG
Peter Patel-Schneider: I'll review QRG ←
17:21:40 <IanH> alanr: let's have a quick review now -- Peter?
Alan Ruttenberg: let's have a quick review now -- Peter? [ Scribe Assist by Ian Horrocks ] ←
17:21:56 <IanH> ... drafts of layout may be useful
Ian Horrocks: ... drafts of layout may be useful ←
17:22:19 <IanH> ... perhaps using graffle(?) or some such
Ian Horrocks: ... perhaps using graffle(?) or some such ←
17:22:31 <IanH> bijan: I would use CSS
Bijan Parsia: I would use CSS [ Scribe Assist by Ian Horrocks ] ←
17:22:38 <IanH> ... there are decent tools
Ian Horrocks: ... there are decent tools ←
17:23:04 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call? ←
17:23:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Christine, IanH, Rinke (muted), MarkusK_, +3539149aaaa, alanr, bmotik (muted), bcuencagrau (muted), zimmer, Evan_Wallace, uli (muted),
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Christine, IanH, Rinke (muted), MarkusK_, +3539149aaaa, alanr, bmotik (muted), bcuencagrau (muted), zimmer, Evan_Wallace, uli (muted), ←
17:23:07 <Zakim> ... bijan, msmith, Sandro, Achille
Zakim IRC Bot: ... bijan, msmith, Sandro, Achille ←
17:23:14 <bijan> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
17:23:24 <IanH> alanr: Peter, will you do a review?
Alan Ruttenberg: Peter, will you do a review? [ Scribe Assist by Ian Horrocks ] ←
17:23:28 <Zakim> +baojie
Zakim IRC Bot: +baojie ←
17:23:28 <IanH> pfps: yes
Peter Patel-Schneider: yes [ Scribe Assist by Ian Horrocks ] ←
17:23:41 <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. ppatelsc, phaase)
Trackbot IRC Bot: Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. ppatelsc, phaase) ←
17:24:05 <Christine> Action: pfps to quick review of QRG
ACTION: pfps to quick review of QRG ←
17:24:06 <trackbot> Created ACTION-332 - Quick review of QRG [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2009-04-29].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-332 - Quick review of QRG [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2009-04-29]. ←
17:24:32 <IanH> alanr: Jie, any comments on QRG?
Alan Ruttenberg: Jie, any comments on QRG? [ Scribe Assist by Ian Horrocks ] ←
17:24:47 <pfps> q+
17:24:48 <Christine> Jie: will change table layout and links to othet docs
Jie Bao: will change table layout and links to othet docs ←
17:24:57 <sandro> I'm torn by this new Link column --- I really like it for on-line usage, but it's a waste of space when printed.
Sandro Hawke: I'm torn by this new Link column --- I really like it for on-line usage, but it's a waste of space when printed. ←
17:25:05 <bijan> display none
Bijan Parsia: display none ←
17:25:11 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
17:25:15 <alanr> ack bijan
Alan Ruttenberg: ack bijan ←
17:25:22 <sandro> (So it falls into the camp, for me, of things to hide when printing. which Bijan had spoken against.)
Sandro Hawke: (So it falls into the camp, for me, of things to hide when printing. which Bijan had spoken against.) ←
17:25:25 <uli> +1 to Sandro
Uli Sattler: +1 to Sandro ←
17:26:25 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-owl2-quick-reference-20090421/
Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-owl2-quick-reference-20090421/ ←
17:26:29 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Quick_Reference_Guide
Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Quick_Reference_Guide ←
17:26:44 <IanH> bijan: wiki version very different from WD
Bijan Parsia: wiki version very different from WD [ Scribe Assist by Ian Horrocks ] ←
17:26:44 <bijan> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-owl2-quick-reference-20081202/
Bijan Parsia: http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-owl2-quick-reference-20081202/ ←
17:26:57 <sandro> bijan, that's the old one.
Sandro Hawke: bijan, that's the old one. ←
17:26:58 <alanr> ack pfps
Alan Ruttenberg: ack pfps ←
17:27:04 <bijan> Ok! Thanks!
Bijan Parsia: Ok! Thanks! ←
17:27:27 <bijan> Sandro, so the main web page is wrong?
Bijan Parsia: Sandro, so the main web page is wrong? ←
17:27:29 <uli> +1 to discuss *where* we want the primer to go
Uli Sattler: +1 to discuss *where* we want the primer to go ←
17:27:50 <sandro> No, Bijan, your point is still valid. The CSS seems totally different between the wiki and yeterday's publicaiton.
Sandro Hawke: No, Bijan, your point is still valid. The CSS seems totally different between the wiki and yeterday's publicaiton. ←
17:27:53 <uli> q+
Uli Sattler: q+ ←
17:27:57 <bijan> Yeah
Bijan Parsia: Yeah ←
17:27:58 <uli> zakim, unmute me
Uli Sattler: zakim, unmute me ←
17:27:58 <Zakim> uli should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: uli should no longer be muted ←
17:27:59 <alanr> ack uli
Alan Ruttenberg: ack uli ←
17:28:02 <Rinke> But the main page is *also* wrong!
Rinke Hoekstra: But the main page is *also* wrong! ←
17:28:08 <bijan> Yes :)
Bijan Parsia: Yes :) ←
17:28:34 <Christine> uli: should discuss the general directions not the details
Uli Sattler: should discuss the general directions not the details ←
17:28:52 <bijan> I agree that we haven't changed our decision
Bijan Parsia: I agree that we haven't changed our decision ←
17:29:01 <IanH> q+
Ian Horrocks: q+ ←
17:29:07 <uli> zakim, unmute me
Uli Sattler: zakim, unmute me ←
17:29:07 <Zakim> uli was not muted, uli
Zakim IRC Bot: uli was not muted, uli ←
17:29:12 <uli> zakim, mute me
Uli Sattler: zakim, mute me ←
17:29:12 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: uli should now be muted ←
17:29:26 <bijan> I can't live with 4 pages
Bijan Parsia: I can't live with 4 pages ←
17:29:29 <alanr> ack Ianh
Alan Ruttenberg: ack Ianh ←
17:29:34 <uli> why could it be impossible to live with 2 pages?
Uli Sattler: why could it be impossible to live with 2 pages? ←
17:29:48 <bijan> 4 pages would be a change in our decision
Bijan Parsia: 4 pages would be a change in our decision ←
17:29:56 <sandro> PROPOSED; We make QRG fit onto two pages.
Sandro Hawke: PROPOSED; We make QRG fit onto two pages. ←
17:30:58 <uli> and we agree that the QRG doesn't need to be "complete"
Uli Sattler: and we agree that the QRG doesn't need to be "complete" ←
17:31:01 <uli> ?
Uli Sattler: ? ←
17:31:01 <bijan> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
17:31:09 <alanr> ack bijan
Alan Ruttenberg: ack bijan ←
17:31:25 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-owl2-new-features-20090421/
Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-owl2-new-features-20090421/ ←
17:33:21 <Christine> +q
+q ←
17:33:31 <alanr> ack Christine
Alan Ruttenberg: ack Christine ←
17:33:40 <bijan> I'm happy to subsume my follow up to christine's response as a review as long as that doesn't imply I've conceded on it
Bijan Parsia: I'm happy to subsume my follow up to christine's response as a review as long as that doesn't imply I've conceded on it ←
17:34:12 <Rinke> I can review as well
Rinke Hoekstra: I can review as well ←
17:34:12 <bijan> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
17:34:21 <alanr> ack bijan
Alan Ruttenberg: ack bijan ←
17:35:02 <Christine> bijan: still disagrees appendix
Bijan Parsia: still disagrees appendix ←
17:35:05 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
17:35:55 <Christine> +q
+q ←
17:36:09 <alanr> ack Christine
Alan Ruttenberg: ack Christine ←
17:37:33 <ewallace> What?
Evan Wallace: What? ←
17:37:34 <Christine> +q
+q ←
17:37:47 <alanr> ack Christine
Alan Ruttenberg: ack Christine ←
17:38:17 <IanH> christine: why is much more work required for NF&R?
Christine Golbreich: why is much more work required for NF&R? [ Scribe Assist by Ian Horrocks ] ←
17:38:20 <bijan> It's obviously false that NF&R is more work than all of the other documents
Bijan Parsia: It's obviously false that NF&R is more work than all of the other documents ←
17:38:24 <bijan> Easy to show
Bijan Parsia: Easy to show ←
17:38:30 <alanr> not necessary, bijan
Alan Ruttenberg: not necessary, bijan ←
17:38:38 <IanH> ... doesn't see need for multiple syntaxes
Ian Horrocks: ... doesn't see need for multiple syntaxes ←
17:38:45 <bijan> What's not necessary? Refuting falsehoods?
Bijan Parsia: What's not necessary? Refuting falsehoods? ←
17:39:17 <ewallace> Yes.
Evan Wallace: Yes. ←
17:39:44 <Christine> +q
+q ←
17:39:48 <sandro> I'm flipping through NF&R and only seeing FS.
Sandro Hawke: I'm flipping through NF&R and only seeing FS. ←
17:39:56 <Christine> no 2 syntaxes
no 2 syntaxes ←
17:40:07 <bijan> I'm happy refuting or things being struck from the record. Neither seems bad.
Bijan Parsia: I'm happy refuting or things being struck from the record. Neither seems bad. ←
17:40:32 <pfps> Some LCC asked for multiple syntaxes throughout.
Peter Patel-Schneider: Some LCC asked for multiple syntaxes throughout. ←
17:40:35 <alanr> ack Christine
Alan Ruttenberg: ack Christine ←
17:40:35 <sandro> Ah..... Now I see some triples in an example.
Sandro Hawke: Ah..... Now I see some triples in an example. ←
17:40:35 <ewallace> A couple of people asked for RDF/XML examples
Evan Wallace: A couple of people asked for RDF/XML examples ←
17:41:08 <sandro> eg the example in http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-owl2-new-features-20090421/#F4:_Self_Restriction does have RDF triples.
Sandro Hawke: eg the example in http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-owl2-new-features-20090421/#F4:_Self_Restriction does have RDF triples. ←
17:41:56 <bijan> 7th May is fine for me
Bijan Parsia: 7th May is fine for me ←
17:42:04 <Christine> +q
+q ←
17:42:15 <alanr> Ack christine
Alan Ruttenberg: Ack christine ←
17:42:39 <IanH> q+
Ian Horrocks: q+ ←
17:42:43 <alanr> ack IanH
Alan Ruttenberg: ack IanH ←
17:43:02 <Rinke> I repeat my offer to review NF&R
Rinke Hoekstra: I repeat my offer to review NF&R ←
17:43:14 <Rinke> by next week
Rinke Hoekstra: by next week ←
17:43:19 <ewallace> thanks Rinke
Evan Wallace: thanks Rinke ←
17:43:37 <Christine> Action: Rinkr to review NF&R
ACTION: Rinkr to review NF&R ←
17:43:37 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Rinkr
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - Rinkr ←
17:43:56 <Rinke> Action: Rinke to review NF&R
ACTION: Rinke to review NF&R ←
17:43:56 <trackbot> Created ACTION-333 - Review NF&R [on Rinke Hoekstra - due 2009-04-29].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-333 - Review NF&R [on Rinke Hoekstra - due 2009-04-29]. ←
17:43:57 <Christine> Action: Rinke to review NF&R 7 MAy
ACTION: Rinke to review NF&R 7 MAy ←
17:43:57 <trackbot> Created ACTION-334 - Review NF&R 7 MAy [on Rinke Hoekstra - due 2009-04-29].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-334 - Review NF&R 7 MAy [on Rinke Hoekstra - due 2009-04-29]. ←
17:44:56 <Christine> * NF&R will have the record of number of reviews
* NF&R will have the record of number of reviews ←
17:46:33 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
17:46:51 <Christine> * we did at thesame time
* we did at thesame time ←
17:46:53 <bijan> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
17:46:58 <alanr> ack bijan
Alan Ruttenberg: ack bijan ←
17:48:33 <Christine> bijan: have time to work on the Primer (as editor)
Bijan Parsia: have time to work on the Primer (as editor) ←
17:49:38 <pfps> just some typos to fix in DO
Peter Patel-Schneider: just some typos to fix in DO ←
17:49:54 <Christine> Ian : overview in good shape
Ian : overview in good shape ←
17:50:15 <Christine> ... in LC shape
... in LC shape ←
17:50:23 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
17:50:31 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller] ←
17:50:46 <Christine> pfps: Manchester syntax ready
Peter Patel-Schneider: Manchester syntax ready ←
17:52:04 <Zakim> +??P21
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P21 ←
17:52:10 <schneid> zakim, ??P21 is me
Michael Schneider: zakim, ??P21 is me ←
17:52:10 <Zakim> +schneid; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +schneid; got it ←
17:52:14 <schneid> zakim, mute me
Michael Schneider: zakim, mute me ←
17:52:14 <Zakim> schneid should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: schneid should now be muted ←
17:53:19 <uli> schneid, and I thought that German trains would never get cancelled!
Uli Sattler: schneid, and I thought that German trains would never get cancelled! ←
17:53:37 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
17:54:00 <Christine> Subtopic : Schedule going forward
Subtopic : Schedule going forward ←
17:54:13 <ewallace> me/ is not sure we captured anything about Datarange extension doc status
Evan Wallace: me/ is not sure we captured anything about Datarange extension doc status ←
17:54:17 <bijan> q+ to ask about CR critieria
Bijan Parsia: q+ to ask about CR critieria ←
17:54:36 <alanr> ack bijan
Alan Ruttenberg: ack bijan ←
17:54:36 <Zakim> bijan, you wanted to ask about CR critieria
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan, you wanted to ask about CR critieria ←
17:55:21 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
17:55:33 <msmith> i.e., *some* test cases must precede CR
Mike Smith: i.e., *some* test cases must precede CR ←
17:56:28 <alanr> ack sandro
Alan Ruttenberg: ack sandro ←
17:56:58 <bijan> +1 to polish!
Bijan Parsia: +1 to polish! ←
17:57:02 <bijan> And to approving a slew
Bijan Parsia: And to approving a slew ←
17:57:20 <bijan> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
17:57:34 <alanr> ack bijan
Alan Ruttenberg: ack bijan ←
17:57:42 <sandro> sandro: Let's call the impractical tests "extra credit" like webont did.
Sandro Hawke: Let's call the impractical tests "extra credit" like webont did. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
17:57:51 <msmith> q+
Mike Smith: q+ ←
17:57:56 <alanr> ack msmith
Alan Ruttenberg: ack msmith ←
17:58:04 <schneid> I think "Extra Credit" existed for some Full test cases, don't know about DL
Michael Schneider: I think "Extra Credit" existed for some Full test cases, don't know about DL ←
17:58:40 <bijan> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
17:58:43 <schneid> And I also think that it was very arbitrary what was extra credit and what not
Michael Schneider: And I also think that it was very arbitrary what was extra credit and what not ←
17:58:57 <bijan> q-
Bijan Parsia: q- ←
17:59:05 <IanH> EC tests also existed for DL; e.g., very large sat problems
Ian Horrocks: EC tests also existed for DL; e.g., very large sat problems ←
17:59:38 <bijan> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
17:59:48 <alanr> ack biajn
Alan Ruttenberg: ack biajn ←
17:59:55 <IanH> q+
Ian Horrocks: q+ ←
18:00:01 <IanH> ack bijan
Ian Horrocks: ack bijan ←
18:00:01 <alanr> ack bijan
Alan Ruttenberg: ack bijan ←
18:01:14 <alanr> ack IanH
Alan Ruttenberg: ack IanH ←
18:01:32 <bijan> Yeah
Bijan Parsia: Yeah ←
18:02:09 <schneid> One reasoner per test case? cool criterion ;-)
Michael Schneider: One reasoner per test case? cool criterion ;-) ←
18:02:12 <sandro> right -- every non-extra-credit test had to be passed by at least two reasoners.
Sandro Hawke: right -- every non-extra-credit test had to be passed by at least two reasoners. ←
18:03:05 <bmotik> I don't think we need to discuss this on the call.
Boris Motik: I don't think we need to discuss this on the call. ←
18:03:25 <bijan> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
18:04:25 <bmotik> Can you summarize the issues?
Boris Motik: Can you summarize the issues? ←
18:05:41 <alanr> ack bijan
Alan Ruttenberg: ack bijan ←
18:05:42 <IanH> q+
Ian Horrocks: q+ ←
18:05:46 <alanr> ack IanH
Alan Ruttenberg: ack IanH ←
18:06:18 <IanH> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Responses_to_Last_Call_Comments
Ian Horrocks: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Responses_to_Last_Call_Comments ←
18:07:01 <Christine> Ianh: has created a new section with new table for LC responses
Ian Horrocks: has created a new section with new table for LC responses ←
18:07:02 <Christine> Topic: Issues
18:09:06 <alanr> PROPOSED: close issue 56 with no action
PROPOSED: close ISSUE-56 with no action ←
18:09:07 <IanH> +1
Ian Horrocks: +1 ←
18:09:09 <pfps> +1
18:09:11 <alanr> +1
Alan Ruttenberg: +1 ←
18:09:13 <ewallace> +1
Evan Wallace: +1 ←
18:09:13 <Rinke> +1
Rinke Hoekstra: +1 ←
18:09:13 <schneid> +1
Michael Schneider: +1 ←
18:09:16 <pfps> +56 :-)
Peter Patel-Schneider: +56 :-) ←
18:09:16 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
18:09:19 <bcuencagrau> +1
18:09:21 <MarkusK_> +1
Markus Krötzsch: +1 ←
18:09:22 <Zhe> +1
18:09:30 <alanr> RESOLVED: close issue 56 with no action
RESOLVED: close ISSUE-56 with no action ←
18:09:37 <bijan> +1
Bijan Parsia: +1 ←
18:09:47 <Christine> Topic: Implementation and Test Cases
18:10:15 <Zakim> -Evan_Wallace
Zakim IRC Bot: -Evan_Wallace ←
18:11:20 <msmith> q+
Mike Smith: q+ ←
18:11:32 <alanr> ack msmith
Alan Ruttenberg: ack msmith ←
18:11:33 <pfps> +1 to adding to *this* table
Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 to adding to *this* table ←
18:12:11 <pfps> the test results page is post-facto, the implementations page is for use now
Peter Patel-Schneider: the test results page is post-facto, the implementations page is for use now ←
18:12:22 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
18:12:25 <alanr> ack sandro
Alan Ruttenberg: ack sandro ←
18:13:21 <bijan> SHER is built on Pellet
Bijan Parsia: SHER is built on Pellet ←
18:13:31 <bijan> So I don't know if it's really a separate implementation
Bijan Parsia: So I don't know if it's really a separate implementation ←
18:13:34 <IanH> q+
Ian Horrocks: q+ ←
18:13:37 <bijan> Though they have a custom EL reasoner
Bijan Parsia: Though they have a custom EL reasoner ←
18:13:41 <IanH> ack IanH
Ian Horrocks: ack IanH ←
18:14:00 <bijan> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
18:15:13 <msmith> +1 to no crap
Mike Smith: +1 to no crap ←
18:15:23 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
18:15:27 <alanr> ack bijan
Alan Ruttenberg: ack bijan ←
18:16:16 <alanr> implementations listed in on http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Implementations should be ones that say they will handle OWL 2
Alan Ruttenberg: implementations listed in on http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Implementations should be ones that say they will handle OWL 2 ←
18:16:29 <sandro> Maybe next to each implementation we can include a characterization of how much of the test suite it passes.
Sandro Hawke: Maybe next to each implementation we can include a characterization of how much of the test suite it passes. ←
18:16:37 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
18:16:49 <alanr> ack sandro
Alan Ruttenberg: ack sandro ←
18:17:16 <msmith> or even just a link to the test results page
Mike Smith: or even just a link to the test results page ←
18:18:21 <bijan> See uli's list o' reasoners: http://owl.cs.manchester.ac.uk/reasoners.html
Bijan Parsia: See uli's list o' reasoners: http://owl.cs.manchester.ac.uk/reasoners.html ←
18:19:22 <bijan> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
18:19:50 <MarkusK_> Also see http://semanticweb.org/wiki/Category:Reasoner
Markus Krötzsch: Also see http://semanticweb.org/wiki/Category:Reasoner ←
18:20:55 <bijan> If comprehensive means at least 1 test mentioning every feature I don't object. :)
Bijan Parsia: If comprehensive means at least 1 test mentioning every feature I don't object. :) ←
18:21:25 <sandro> *shrug*
Sandro Hawke: *shrug* ←
18:21:28 <msmith> q+ on this
Mike Smith: q+ on this ←
18:21:34 <bijan> q-
Bijan Parsia: q- ←
18:21:35 <alanr> ack bijan
Alan Ruttenberg: ack bijan ←
18:21:39 <alanr> ack msmith
Alan Ruttenberg: ack msmith ←
18:21:39 <Zakim> msmith, you wanted to comment on this
Zakim IRC Bot: msmith, you wanted to comment on this ←
18:22:23 <msmith> I agree and we'll keep track of this
Mike Smith: I agree and we'll keep track of this ←
18:22:49 <msmith> q+
Mike Smith: q+ ←
18:22:52 <alanr> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Test_Suite_Status
Alan Ruttenberg: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Test_Suite_Status ←
18:22:55 <alanr> ack msmith
Alan Ruttenberg: ack msmith ←
18:23:16 <msmith> http://www.w3.org/2003/08/owl-systems/test-results-out
Mike Smith: http://www.w3.org/2003/08/owl-systems/test-results-out ←
18:24:41 <bijan> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
18:24:45 <alanr> ack bijan
Alan Ruttenberg: ack bijan ←
18:28:03 <msmith> q+
Mike Smith: q+ ←
18:28:23 <alanr> ack msmith
Alan Ruttenberg: ack msmith ←
18:28:49 <bijan> And with RDF it's extra hard
Bijan Parsia: And with RDF it's extra hard ←
18:28:54 <pfps> Consider a FS to RDF translator that "shares tails". It would, in some sense, preserve meaning, but it is broken because it can't be reverse translated.
Peter Patel-Schneider: Consider a FS to RDF translator that "shares tails". It would, in some sense, preserve meaning, but it is broken because it can't be reverse translated. ←
18:29:04 <bijan> Or moves annotations around
Bijan Parsia: Or moves annotations around ←
18:29:55 <msmith> Sounds good. Thanks.
Mike Smith: Sounds good. Thanks. ←
18:29:55 <sandro> I'm thinking some kind of round-trip, or a->b->b kind of testing....
Sandro Hawke: I'm thinking some kind of round-trip, or a->b->b kind of testing.... ←
18:30:07 <Zakim> -msmith
Zakim IRC Bot: -msmith ←
18:30:08 <Rinke> bye
Rinke Hoekstra: bye ←
18:30:08 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider
Zakim IRC Bot: -Peter_Patel-Schneider ←
18:30:08 <MarkusK_> bye
Markus Krötzsch: bye ←
18:30:08 <Zakim> -bmotik
Zakim IRC Bot: -bmotik ←
18:30:09 <uli> bye
Uli Sattler: bye ←
18:30:10 <Zakim> -Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro ←
18:30:12 <Zakim> -MarkusK_
Zakim IRC Bot: -MarkusK_ ←
18:30:13 <Zakim> -alanr
Zakim IRC Bot: -alanr ←
18:30:13 <Zakim> -Achille
Zakim IRC Bot: -Achille ←
18:30:14 <Zakim> -baojie
Zakim IRC Bot: -baojie ←
18:30:15 <Zakim> -Rinke
Zakim IRC Bot: -Rinke ←
18:30:16 <Zakim> -IanH
Zakim IRC Bot: -IanH ←
18:30:16 <bijan> But you still need a criterion for sameness, sandro
Bijan Parsia: But you still need a criterion for sameness, sandro ←
18:30:19 <bijan> THat's the challenge here
Bijan Parsia: THat's the challenge here ←
18:30:19 <Zakim> -schneid
Zakim IRC Bot: -schneid ←
18:30:22 <Zakim> - +3539149aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: - +3539149aaaa ←
18:30:23 <Zakim> -Christine
Zakim IRC Bot: -Christine ←
18:30:24 <Zakim> -bcuencagrau
Zakim IRC Bot: -bcuencagrau ←
18:30:26 <Zakim> -bijan
Zakim IRC Bot: -bijan ←
18:30:29 <Zakim> -uli
Zakim IRC Bot: -uli ←
18:30:32 <Zakim> -zimmer
Zakim IRC Bot: -zimmer ←
18:30:33 <Zakim> SW_OWL()1:00PM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_OWL()1:00PM has ended ←
18:30:34 <Zakim> Attendees were Peter_Patel-Schneider, Christine, IanH, Rinke, +3539149aaaa, bmotik, alanr, bcuencagrau, Evan_Wallace, MarkusK_, zimmer, uli, bijan, msmith, Sandro, Achille, baojie,
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Peter_Patel-Schneider, Christine, IanH, Rinke, +3539149aaaa, bmotik, alanr, bcuencagrau, Evan_Wallace, MarkusK_, zimmer, uli, bijan, msmith, Sandro, Achille, baojie, ←
18:30:37 <Zakim> ... [IPcaller], schneid
Zakim IRC Bot: ... [IPcaller], schneid ←
18:30:46 <alanr> for the rdf mapping testing that a particular set of triples is produced, modulo bnode mapping
Alan Ruttenberg: for the rdf mapping testing that a particular set of triples is produced, modulo bnode mapping ←
18:31:08 <alanr> jena has an "isomorphic to" method.
Alan Ruttenberg: jena has an "isomorphic to" method. ←
18:31:12 <bijan> For obnoxious little technical reasons (e.g., that cause roundtripping not to be guarunteed) it's obnoxious to write the test
Bijan Parsia: For obnoxious little technical reasons (e.g., that cause roundtripping not to be guarunteed) it's obnoxious to write the test ←
18:31:20 <bijan> Butyou can have some triple variation in some cases, yes?
Bijan Parsia: Butyou can have some triple variation in some cases, yes? ←
18:31:29 <sandro> character-by-character sameness, Bijan. That's not going to work with a->b->a, but it might with a->b1->a2->b2, where b1 and b2 have to be the same.
Sandro Hawke: character-by-character sameness, Bijan. That's not going to work with a->b->a, but it might with a->b1->a2->b2, where b1 and b2 have to be the same. ←
18:31:32 <bijan> A proper test suite would have to allow for that
Bijan Parsia: A proper test suite would have to allow for that ←
18:31:50 <bijan> character by character doesn't work for XML even :)
Bijan Parsia: character by character doesn't work for XML even :) ←
18:32:08 <alanr> on bnodes, and if in the case where there is explicit order, but structurally order doesn't matter
Alan Ruttenberg: on bnodes, and if in the case where there is explicit order, but structurally order doesn't matter ←
18:32:09 <bijan> You could impost, maybe, a canonicalization step
Bijan Parsia: You could impost, maybe, a canonicalization step ←
18:32:20 <alanr> I agree - test should propery test :)
Alan Ruttenberg: I agree - test should propery test :) ←
18:32:35 <alanr> s/propery/properly/
Alan Ruttenberg: s/propery/properly/ ←
18:32:44 <bijan> If there's non-determinism
Bijan Parsia: If there's non-determinism ←
18:33:03 <alanr> I don't remember any in the rdf mapping other than the issue of list ordering I mention
Alan Ruttenberg: I don't remember any in the rdf mapping other than the issue of list ordering I mention ←
18:33:11 <bijan> Such that two different implementations could, at their discretion, produce different number of triples (for exmaple)
Bijan Parsia: Such that two different implementations could, at their discretion, produce different number of triples (for exmaple) ←
18:33:15 <alanr> that's fs->rdf I'm talking about
Alan Ruttenberg: that's fs->rdf I'm talking about ←
18:33:21 <bijan> then your test has to account for unionOf those answers
Bijan Parsia: then your test has to account for unionOf those answers ←
18:33:27 <alanr> I don't know of any such
Alan Ruttenberg: I don't know of any such ←
18:33:32 <bijan> If not, then we don't need entailment but can use isomorphisic of the graphs
Bijan Parsia: If not, then we don't need entailment but can use isomorphisic of the graphs ←
18:33:37 <bijan> Or structural equivalence
Bijan Parsia: Or structural equivalence ←
18:33:48 <alanr> we don
Alan Ruttenberg: we don ←
18:33:57 <alanr> 'we don't have tests for structural equivalence currently
Alan Ruttenberg: 'we don't have tests for structural equivalence currently ←
18:34:08 <bijan> WE don't need *tests* for st eq
Bijan Parsia: WE don't need *tests* for st eq ←
18:34:09 <alanr> and structural equiv isn't preserved in the rdf mapping
Alan Ruttenberg: and structural equiv isn't preserved in the rdf mapping ←
18:34:40 <bijan> Then but you say RDF2FS2RDF=> same graph
Bijan Parsia: Then but you say RDF2FS2RDF=> same graph ←
18:35:11 <alanr> not necessarily, because of list ordering
Alan Ruttenberg: not necessarily, because of list ordering ←
18:35:24 <alanr> (at least)
Alan Ruttenberg: (at least) ←
18:35:31 <bijan> Then add a list match to the isomorphism
Bijan Parsia: Then add a list match to the isomorphism ←
18:35:35 <alanr> right
Alan Ruttenberg: right ←
18:35:41 <sandro> I'd think translators should preserve list ordering, even though the OWL semantics don't care.
Sandro Hawke: I'd think translators should preserve list ordering, even though the OWL semantics don't care. ←
18:35:43 <bijan> I.e., "compare rdf lists as bags"
Bijan Parsia: I.e., "compare rdf lists as bags" ←
18:36:06 <alanr> sandro: would be nice, but not what the spec says
Sandro Hawke: would be nice, but not what the spec says [ Scribe Assist by Alan Ruttenberg ] ←
18:36:10 <sandro> but that's a perfect test case (whether list ordering can be changed)
Sandro Hawke: but that's a perfect test case (whether list ordering can be changed) ←
18:36:11 <bijan> But it's that sort of thing that's needed, not logical equivalence testing (wich is far too weak)
Bijan Parsia: But it's that sort of thing that's needed, not logical equivalence testing (wich is far too weak) ←
18:36:46 <alanr> my point about logical equivalence wasn't that it was great, but that it was something. We don't have anything yet, some something is better than nothing.
Alan Ruttenberg: my point about logical equivalence wasn't that it was great, but that it was something. We don't have anything yet, some something is better than nothing. ←
18:36:51 <sandro> That's a shame (that the spec says list order can be changed). Ah well.
Sandro Hawke: That's a shame (that the spec says list order can be changed). Ah well. ←
18:37:35 <alanr> What appears worse is that it doesn't appear that you can count on the number of annotations in the structure being preserved in the fs->rdf->f2
Alan Ruttenberg: What appears worse is that it doesn't appear that you can count on the number of annotations in the structure being preserved in the fs->rdf->f2 ←
18:37:37 <msmith> it says set, not list
Mike Smith: it says set, not list ←
18:37:43 <bijan> I disagree that it's something
Bijan Parsia: I disagree that it's something ←
18:37:50 <alanr> s/f2/fs/
Alan Ruttenberg: s/f2/fs/ ←
18:37:57 <alanr> you would be wrong then :)
Alan Ruttenberg: you would be wrong then :) ←
18:38:17 <alanr> that's a hard argument to make :)
Alan Ruttenberg: that's a hard argument to make :) ←
18:38:26 <sandro> rofl
Sandro Hawke: rofl ←
18:38:32 <bijan> You could test for same number of bytes
Bijan Parsia: You could test for same number of bytes ←
18:38:34 <bijan> That's a test
Bijan Parsia: That's a test ←
18:38:38 <bijan> That's "something"
Bijan Parsia: That's "something" ←
18:38:54 <alanr> not something that if it fails you know the mapping has failed
Alan Ruttenberg: not something that if it fails you know the mapping has failed ←
18:39:30 <alanr> ok got to go - cheers (all in good spirit)
Alan Ruttenberg: ok got to go - cheers (all in good spirit) ←
18:39:37 <bijan> Ok, test for byte equality, that succeeds if your conversion succeeded
Bijan Parsia: Ok, test for byte equality, that succeeds if your conversion succeeded ←
18:39:45 <bijan> Similarly weak and pointless
Bijan Parsia: Similarly weak and pointless ←
18:39:53 <bijan> And he's gone
Bijan Parsia: And he's gone ←
Formatted by CommonScribe
This revision (#1) generated 2009-04-27 09:18:48 UTC by 'ihorrock2', comments: None