See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 09 December 2010
<scribe> ScribeNick: adrianba
<scribe> Scribe: Adrian Bateman
<scribe> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2010OctDec/0209.html
ed: agenda is short, agreed on
the last telcon to focus on 1.1
... need to see what progress we've made
<ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Full_11#Remaining_work_for_SVG1.1F2
ed: if we could go through the list from top to bottom
<ed> ISSUE-2339?
<trackbot> ISSUE-2339 -- Last Call Comment: definition of azimuth, elevation for feDistantLight -- open
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2339
ISSUE-2339?
<trackbot> ISSUE-2339 -- Last Call Comment: definition of azimuth, elevation for feDistantLight -- open
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2339
heycam: anthony said he'd get to this later today
ed: think this is one that i
think i wrote tests for but not sure
... might be one we can put in and not have a test ready for
initial testing phase
... okay, so progress on that one
ISSUE-2334?
<trackbot> ISSUE-2334 -- Last Call Comment: filter primitive subregion and feGaussianBlur, feTile and infinite filter input images -- raised
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2334
ed: this one i've been working on
a bit today, i commited some changes for the second half to
clarify
... the first part is not yet addressed but we have an
agreement on how it will be resolved and i started with some
tests to see what implementations are doing at the moment
... this is one i think we will need tests for
... i don't want to put something in the spec before i have
something ready in tests
heycam: so you'll be able to do this tomorrow?
ed: yes, that's my plan
ISSUE-2335?
<trackbot> ISSUE-2335 -- Last Call Comment: Clarify feConvolveMatrix bias property -- raised
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2335
ed: i had an action and so did
anthony - my action is closed because i think anthony's to put
in the wording, he has been following up on this to get
agreement
... i saw a new test was added on this
<scribe> ACTION: ed to review the test for ISSUE-2335 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/12/09-svg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2919 - Review the test for ISSUE-2335 [on Erik Dahlström - due 2010-12-16].
ed: not sure if this is the one
anthony said he commited changes to the spec
... yeah, think this is one of them
ISSUE-2338?
<trackbot> ISSUE-2338 -- Last Call Comment: type of feFunc* -- raised
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2338
tav: it's done
ed: marked that one as being done in tracker
heycam: does it have all the comments for disposition of comments?
ed: yes, when we do the
extraction of tracker it will be okay
... but we need to go through the remaining issues and ensure
they have the notes but we can leave that for now
heycam: does this need to be done in time for the publication?
chrisl: that needs to be done before the transition request?
heycam: does the transition involve a phone call?
chrisl: yes
heycam: we haven't planned for that and if the pub deadline is wednesday we need to that before
chrisl: we need to show we've exited LC and CR - could be one meeting to do both
shepazu: that'll be team contact
and maybe the chairs and the director and domain lead
... probably plh, ralph and either chris and/or doug
... probably won't be able to schedule at this stage
chrisl: we need to go to the chairs and there needs to be notice for people to object if they feel comments not dealt with
heycam: that's unfortunate
shepazu: we won't be able to publish but we can do all the other steps
heycam: okay
shepazu: so we'll publish in early january
<ChrisL> 31 January, in answer to the question
ed: think we should aim for both disposition of comments and implementation report before christmas then
<ChrisL> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ac-members/2010OctDec/0003.html
heycam: think that's feasible because working hard we would have met the wednesday deadline
ed: aiming for something earlier helps to get done
heycam: if we have an extra couple of weeks then we might consider fixing other things in the tests
chrisl: would much rather see
people running this sooner so we have a feel for where we
are
... we don't know how many tests we have where no one passes
yet
ISSUE-2343?
<trackbot> ISSUE-2343 -- Last Call Comment: 15.12 Filter primitive ‘feComposite’ formula -- raised
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2343
<ChrisL> we can easily run spot rechecks as needed for tests where we find bugs
ed: this one was done - not sure
if the issue itself was updated
... yeah, we still need approval of response
heycam: is there a minimum amount of time we need to give commenters to respond?
<ChrisL> well, a reasonable time. some days typically
ed: i don't think the remaining
issues are that hard to resolve
... not sure if new tests are needed - we can work this out in
the coming days
... we'll ask anthony if there are new tests needed, seems
mostly clarifications
ISSUE-2346?
<trackbot> ISSUE-2346 -- Last Call Comment: previous discussion about filterRes -- raised
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2346
ed: i've closed this
ISSUE-2351?
<trackbot> ISSUE-2351 -- Last Call Comment: Clarify that units are required on <length>s in style attribute; fix examples in text. -- closed
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2351
ed: i didn't close the issue - not 100% if done
tav: yes, it was done
ed: okay, i'll close then
... we should keep issues open so we can more easily extract
them
ISSUE-2364?
<trackbot> ISSUE-2364 -- Last Call Comment: SVG 1.1 may be ambiguous about the root element acting as a proximal event target -- raised
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2364
shepazu: i'm working on this one
- apparently svg doesn't use the term hit-testing so looking at
a definition for that
... not done yet but i expect to have submitted it to cvs today
and be ready for review
heycam: who's comment was it?
shepazu: there were several - not
sure if it was a last call issue - don't think it was
... came about because of discussion after last call about
whether the svg root should intercept pointer events
... two different contexts, inline or embedded by reference
<ChrisL> Cam, see http://www.w3.org/2010/09/SVG1.1SE-LastCall/ for the modified disco.xsl and some sparse documentation in getxml.html
heycam: so what were the decisions?
shepazu: the interaction section mixes a bunch of things including action processing order and we decided that we were going to clarify the section on ui events
heycam: not sure if we have tests for this
shepazu: we probably don't but
not sure if the changes i am making will result in tests,
probably but i haven't looked to see if there are tests
yet
... i need to make sure there are tests that do check this
heycam: there are 3 tests that may be testing something around here
ISSUE-2368?
<trackbot> ISSUE-2368 -- Problems with grammars for numbers -- raised
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2368
<heycam> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2010OctDec/0191.html
heycam: i couldn't see who was
the original commentor - the issue was that the grammar for the
points production for polygon and polyline; if you don't use a
. in the number you are required to use an exponent
... think it's because floating point and integers are separate
and if you only look at the fp production then you might think
integers are missed out
... but if you take them both together then it's fine
... waiting for feedback
ISSUE-2384?
<trackbot> ISSUE-2384 -- Order of rx / ry computation for rounded rects -- raised
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2384
pdengler: i think the
clarification makes sense - it's ambiguous without it
... we should update the tests but we don't know if we'll be
able to fix it on our side
heycam: do you agree with the proposed fix but don't have time to fix?
pdengler: yes
heycam: will you be able to fix in the future?
pdengler: we'd want to get to it, yes
heycam: think it's an edge case
ed: yeah, it won't be noticeable to most people and it's possible to work around
pdengler: true
<scribe> ACTION: heycam to add the wording and fix the test for ISSUE-2384 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/12/09-svg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2920 - Add the wording and fix the test for ISSUE-2384 [on Cameron McCormack - due 2010-12-16].
ISSUE-2391?
<trackbot> ISSUE-2391 -- Last Call Comment: better changes appendix -- raised
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2391
chrisl: going through all the logs to find all the changes since last publication is taking time
heycam: is this something you're part way through?
chrisl: not started yet, don't know if anyone has updated the appendix and should be able to start again
pdengler: when we last looked it hadn't been updated
chrisl: have to go through the
CVS change log and read the diff and summarise the change
... yes, you can pick the starting point
... we got a comment saying the changes appendix needs to be
better, for the patent policy we need the list of changes from
the last time we published
... because any new features added after LC doesn't get
covered
... so we need to show no new features were added and just
clarifications
... that part is fine but the 'better' appendix is more
work
... the current version is less detailed than what was asked
for in the comment
... to turn it into a reference for someone that knows the
orginal edition and want to just know what has changed
... we pushed it back to the commenter
... but they haven't got to it
ed: i dealt with the other two
remaining issues
... is there anything else we need to do with the spec that
isn't listed here?
heycam: i remember noticing at
one stage that the style for the dom method summaries was
looking good in some browsers but not in others
... i want to make sure it looks alright in most browsers -
just a one off quick check at the end when we're ready
ed: just trying to make sure we don't have any surprises, that's all
<ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Full_11#Testsuite_issues
ed: tried to keep track of issues on this wiki page
<ed> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/test/harness/htmlObjectMiniApproved
ed: one thing to note is that i
have only kept this one updated and only contains the tests we
have accepted
... the other harnesses include draft tests including some not
reviewed
... this is the official one for the implementation reports
heycam: does this mean we won't have new accepted tests?
ed: i think we have to be open to
accept some new ones or possibly dropping tests back to
draft
... don't think it's possible to say until we've done the
testing and see where we are
... it may show issues we've missed - i think this harness and
the tests are in good shape
... and it's useful to run the tests and learn about any issues
left to fix
heycam: i think there are only a
couple that need changes
... 99% of the tests are fine regardless of any ambiguities in
the pass criteria
<ChrisL> Updated the disposition of comments - http://www.w3.org/2010/09/SVG1.1SE-LastCall/dump.html
heycam: so i agree we can do the run through and if there are substantial changes to the tests we can run those individually
chrisl: there was a discussion of
bidi include testing arabic - was testing two things
... so i made it like the 1.2 test that was simpler
<heycam> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/test/imagePatches/text-intro-06-t.png
heycam: because i wasn't sure if the test required a particular font i couldn't tell if it was a font problem
chrisl: the reference images should be good references with the right font
ed: regarding bidi and text anchor we made clarifications in 1.2 and we need to bring this back so the specs are compatible
chrisl: 1.1 1st edition had some well meaning but incorrect text
ed: chrisl, will you do the back porting?
chrisl: i could look at this, do you know where it is?
ed: i sent mail to the list with the change list - it's multiple changes but should be able to figure it out
<scribe> ACTION: chrisl to bring the 1.2 changes for bidi and text anchor back to the 1.1 spec [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/12/09-svg-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2921 - Bring the 1.2 changes for bidi and text anchor back to the 1.1 spec [on Chris Lilley - due 2010-12-16].
heycam: as part of this will you look at the tests?
chrisl: i started this by
simplifying the tests, made some new tests that used a WOFF
font (unapproved)
... it's there so eventually we can have better tests without
having to download and install fonts
... -06, -11, and -12
... -06 was the only approved one, the others won't be in the
implementation report - just so we remember
heycam: does -06 require woff?
chrisl: no, it still uses platform font, just simplifies by only looking for mandatory ligature
pdengler: on textintro-01, i got
lost looking at the test on the site
... is it that the reference images haven't been
regenerated?
chrisl: this is -06 we're talking
about
... i've checked in a ref image sitting in the image patches
directory but someone is going to have to run the build scripts
for the harness
<ed> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/test/harness/htmlObjectMiniApproved/text-intro-01-t.html
heycam: comparing -01 and -04, not sure why there is combining in one and not the other
<scribe> ACTION: chrisl to fix the text-intro-04 test with feedback that has been around a little while [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/12/09-svg-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2922 - Fix the text-intro-04 test with feedback that has been around a little while [on Chris Lilley - due 2010-12-16].
<ChrisL> ARJ> In the Yiddish example, U+05D0 HEBREW LETTER ALEF is followed by U+05B8
<ChrisL> ARJ> HEBREW POINT QAMATS. The qamats is a non-spacing mark and should be
<ChrisL> ARJ> positioned below the alef, yet in the reference image, it is positioned on
<ChrisL> ARJ> the left side.
heycam: it takes a long time to run through the tests - it's hard to see sometimes if there is a pass
chrisl: yes, sometimes you have to reload several times, which might have been a mistake
<ChrisL> the ones with multiple animations would be better split into separate tests, if you have to hit reload anyway
<general discussion about lessons learned and test first methodology>
ed: in order to run the test
suite, do we need to generate the xml files?
... anthony generated the reporting files, maybe i can rerun
the scripts
... the problem is last time it included some draft status
tests and i'm not sure if they have been updated
... i can look tomorrow - probably not that hard to regenerate
the status file
... makes sense to see which revision we test so we know if we
have to go back
heycam: do we have a general rule if the revision number doesn't matter that's okay
ed: yes, the revision numbers are not part of the tests
<scribe> ACTION: ed to regenerate the test status file and make sure it only contains accepted tests [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/12/09-svg-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2923 - Regenerate the test status file and make sure it only contains accepted tests [on Erik Dahlström - due 2010-12-16].
ed: i will send mail to the list once the status file is done
heycam: with animate-element-77, i was asking about whitespace causing things to be in the wrong, firefox is wrong but the test isn't trying to test whitespace
ed: if we can leave the test as is for now that is better, i would like to have more tests in future for whitespace
heycam: okay
... the other ones i added are just tweaking the pass criteria
to make it clearer
ed: when i went through the suite
i saw about 20 tests that still had red in - better than we
were
... think it's fine to start running through the suite, if
there are any issues left we may need to make some more
changes
<ChrisL> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/test/svg/text-dom-01-f.svg
chrisl: seems to be using Arial - not sure if the script is expecting the metrics of Arial
ed: tried to avoid using Arial
where possible but there are some cases where it is
needed
... this is a draft test
chrisl: i could respond and say
it was a draft, but it was raised as a comment
... okay, it's a draft, i'll leave that one
heycam: just want to ask about the woff conversion again
chrisl: i've done some more and
checked them in, still some to do, some of the tests i changed
the font because it was easier than converting the svg
font
... still have three left to do, the rest are done now
heycam: only a few tests that
rely on fonts that haven't been converted
... so patrick, when you run through if there are only a few it
should be okay to go back to those
pdengler: yes
... we're still on track for giving results next week
chrisl: what implementation are you running - is it public or internal?
pdengler: it will be internal so we need to figure out how to get it to you
chrisl: need to get a version to me under member/team confidentiality for spot checking
pdengler: yes, we'll need to do
this - just may take time
... for clarify, my test team monitors the working group
mailing list so as soon as it is sent out that it is ready to
go we'll start
heycam: so you'll run all the tests, create the implementation report, and then coordinate with chris?
pdengler: we'll run it as soon as we can and after that we'll get a build to chris
heycam: today after i've done the little issues, i'll mail out and say the tests are ready to run
pdengler: suspect we'll hit some problems and a few will need to be re-run anyway
ed: only thing missing is the xml file which is on me to figure out, will get it tomorrow morning
heycam: don't need it to start testing
ed: no, but good to get it done for later
heycam: sounds good
shepazu: another issue from whatwg that i'd like to briefly discuss
<shepazu> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2010OctDec/0192.html
shepazu: basically someone was
doing svg and when tried to validate it then when put svg in
body he could reference with use elements in other parts of
html
... but if he put the svg inside the html it used up space and
in the head it wouldn't validate
pdengler: why did it take up space?
heycam: because it's default CSS
chrisl: display:none should support this?
shepazu: could also say width height zero
chrisl: that might affect the viewport
shepazu: this is maybe stuff for the integration spec - i think we're going to have people that expect to be able to put things in the head that doesn't display unless you use it elsewhere
chrisl: we should push this back to the html wg and say it always has display:none when it goes in the head
ed: don't want to do subsetting
shepazu: no, we don't want to
subset, any svg element should be allowed in the head
... should just be svg allowed in the head as chris said
pdengler: feels like we're creating work here
shepazu: no, i think this should fall out of the model - there is a quirk of the html spec that doesn't allow svg in the head
heycam: it's consistent with that you can't have things like paragraph in the head
chrisl: but html doesn't have the same reference model
pdengler: i think we should figure out a better model before we go an push on this - we should think about the bigger picture before making requests
shepazu: i disagree, i think you should be able to put it anywhere in the doc and use it anywhere
ed: and it works but just doesn't validate
shepazu: think it's not an architectural argument
pdengler: i think it goes to the fact there are concepts in svg that may make sense in html
shepazu: i think it's orthogonal
to that - we can have a conversation about broader issues
... maybe html will eventually have a use element for re-use
but that is orthogonal for whether svg is allowed in the
head
pdengler: if you introduce this into html then wouldn't you have to make bigger changes to html and what can go in the head?
shepazu: i'd like to e-mail the html working group
ed: sounds like we don't have consensus yet but we could start the conversation
<discussion about whether html might have a use-like thing>
chrisl: html might add something
but we already have one in svg
... so we should deal with the svg issue now
shepazu: i think this will be a common pattern - lots of people think this way
ed: just because something doesn't validate doesn't mean it isn't used
shepazu: i don't think the
validation failure makes sense
... if in the future people decide to add something like this
in html and the consequences in the head then that's a bigger
issue
heycam: i hear patrick saying that we should be taking the wider issues into account so we don't make it harder in future
shepazu: i understand but i think they're orthogonal
heycam: so that's the disagreement
pdengler: how about we test the waters and see what they think?
shepazu: i'm fine with
approaching the html wg and saying we see two ways to solve
this, here's one and some people prefer the other
... the larger issue i'm concerned with is that every decision
that we second guess, every little thing that we think have we
thought this through then it costs us
... if this is going to cost an entire telcon then it's not
worth it
... i am concerned with how long it takes to get to consensus
on small details
... 1) are there going to be knock on effects for html in the
future (if html introduces a reference mechanism like
use)
... 2) are there perf issues with this
ed: the html wg could come back
saying we think this has bad effects
... there needs to be a discussion on this
shepazu: we can ask the html wg if these two things will be a problem
ed: do we need a decision here today - can we assign the action to start the discussion
<scribe> ACTION: shepazu to send mail to HTML WG raising the issue of using SVG in the HTML head [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/12/09-svg-minutes.html#action06]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2924 - Send mail to HTML WG raising the issue of using SVG in the HTML head [on Doug Schepers - due 2010-12-16].
ed: let's try to get the final things fixed in the test suite tomorrow and run the tests next week
<ed> who's mailing out the minutes today? adrianba?
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135 of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/the other/...the other/ Succeeded: s/SVS 1.1/SVG 1.1/ Found ScribeNick: adrianba Found Scribe: Adrian Bateman Default Present: heycam, adrianba, pdengler, ed, +39.537.7.aaaa, Shepazu, ChrisL Present: heycam adrianba pdengler ed +39.537.7.aaaa Shepazu ChrisL Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2010OctDec/0209.html Found Date: 09 Dec 2010 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2010/12/09-svg-minutes.html People with action items: chrisl ed heycam shepazu[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]