See also: IRC log
<RalphS> Agenda: name: Smith, MacKenzie
<RalphS> email: kenzie@MIT.EDU
<RalphS> oops, strike that
lol
<RalphS> previous 2007-07-12
<scribe> scribe: Steven
<RalphS> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0157.html
<RalphS> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/actions/1
<RalphS> ACTION: Ben/Ralph to figure out the RDFa-GRDDL-profile URI (at w3.org) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action15] [DONE]
<RalphS> Ralph: I believe my request for http://www.w3.org/ns/rdfa in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Jun/0161.html will be approved
<scribe> ACTION: [NEW] Ben to sum up @href/@resource everywhere proposal [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]
<scribe> -- done
<scribe> ACTION: [PENDING] Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04] [CONTINUES]
<scribe> ACTION: Ben/Ralph to figure out the RDFa-GRDDL-profile URI (at w3.org) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action15] [DONE]
<scribe> ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10] [CONTINUES]
<scribe> ACTION: Mark get input from Joost on @HREF everywhere [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action14] [DONE]
<scribe> ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action25] [POSTPONED]
<scribe> ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content after October [CONTINUES] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
Topic: @resource and @href on same element
Ben: What happens?
<mhausenblas> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0110.html
Mh: How do you decide when something is dereferenceable?
Ben: URI vs URN?
MH: But with http: you don't know if a URI is dereferencable until you try
Ben: Example?
MH: [scribe misses]
Ben: No, the idea of @resource in
this proposal is to override href in the same way that @content
overrides the real content
... @resource always overrides @href for the semantic
purpose
Bne: Any objections?
Steven: Sounds mostly harmless
Mark: In the case of @content we
are thinking of the content providing the rdf:label
... in this case we could use the href in a similar way
... in any case the href shouldn't generate a new version of
the same triple
Ben: Need more time?
Steven: Well I do, but I understand we are under time pressure
<Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to ask on @resource precedence ...
<Zakim> RalphS, you wanted to propose an action to make a test case
<benadida> ACTION: MichaelH to put together test cases for @resource @href on same element [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
Steven: I suppose my only problem is that RDFa is getting more and more complicated, while it started off so simple
Ben: I think the fact that the
clickable href may not be the semantic one is a good use
case
... don't you think the similarity to @content convincing?
Steven: I have many times needed @content, but never felt the need for @resoruce
<RalphS> Simone: RDFa must remain simple to allow simple implementations.
Simone: [muffled]
Ben: Yes, but we mustn't be *too*
simple
... it is a question of balance
... href should be mentioned iin the primer in the main section
and @resource should be in the advanced section
<Simone> Simone: I think we may remain simple, actually people uses Microformats and not other, as You said Ben, we must found a Good balance for simplicity ;)
Ralph: I vote for keeping the
primer simple, but I don't think we need a use case to justify
this feature.
... in the primer
... but we do need it in the spec
<RalphS> Ralph: for interoperability we need to specify the behavior when both attributes are used in the same element
Steven: I'm worried that RDFa,
which used to be describable in a paragraph is getting too
complicated
... I haven't been convinced of the utility of @resoruce over
just @href
<RalphS> http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-minutes#item02
Mark: Well, this is standard rdf stuff, why do you think it is OK to have an href to a non-dereferencable URI?
<RalphS> [RDFa] ISSUE-34: partial resolution to @href everywhere
Steven: I don't agree that it is so cut and dried that there is such a division
<mhausenblas> +q
<Zakim> RalphS, you wanted to say that we may not need to justify a use case
Mark: Well, is something an
information resource or not?
... that is a good distinction
... otherwise you can't talk about web pages, make statements
about webpages
Ben: We have another huge issue
to discuss, so we are in a time bind here
... I have to ask if you can live with this
... especially since you are going on vacation
Steven: I hadn't taken the discussion last week as a resolution of the @resource issue
MH: Well, if you don't want to
use @resource you don't have to use it
... it doesn't make the language more complicated
Ben: Well as an author, but not as a consumer
Ralph: We are concerned that
@href should have effect outside of RDFa, and so is unsafe for
us to rely on presentational behaviours, so I supported the
addition of @resource
... I don't agree with Mark's interpretation about different
types of URIs being approriate or not for the two
attributes
... I think we need @resource because of href legacy
... I agree about avoiding complexity
<RalphS> Steven: looking at the messages in the thread about introducing @href and @resource together, I was shocked at the complexity of the additional rules
<RalphS> ... by slow accretion we've increased the complexity
<RalphS> ... I have a feeling of uneasiness about the addition of new rules
<RalphS> Ben: the additional rules had to do with the next issue, considering striping, not so much this one
Mark: But I haven't heard a good reason for why you think it is OK to put a URN in an href
Steven: But I don'; think that
that is wrong
... a browser could dereference such a thing
... even if current browsers don't
... I can imagine ways it could be done
Mark: But the current practice for href is that it points at a dereferencable thing
Ralph: I didn't want this
argument today
... but I don't think we need to differentiate between two
sorts of URI
<Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to ask Steven about the scope of worry
MH: Steven, are you worried about complecity for authors or implementors?
Steven: Both, but mostly authors
<RalphS> Ralph: <a href="urn:..."> doesn't do very much useful in today's browsers but it's not improper.
Ben: Even if Mark is wrong, the
risk is small
... in the future we could delete the feature if we don't need
it
<markbirbeck> Ralph...it creates a blue link in today's browsers. :)
Ralph: I'd rather people use href, but I think there is a need for resource
Ben: The reason we think rdfa is
better is because we have thought through the edge cases
... I hope you can live with this Steven
... I agree that it is bigger than it was, but that's because
there is a lot of interest from other people
<RalphS> Steven: I am willing to live with @resource
Steven: I am willing to say I can live with it, in order to move forward
(I said the same about @class by the way)
RESOLUTION: @href and @resource everywhere
<benadida> ... and that @resource overrides @href as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0110.html
RESOLUTION: @resource overrides @href as per Ben's propoal
<mhausenblas> +1
<RalphS> I can live with this too
Ben: Steven's worries noted
... I had to live with not using @class, so I know how you
feel
<RalphS> [telecon extended +15 mins]
Ben: Whatever @instanceof is
called
... instanceof represents rdf:type
<benadida> <div rel="foaf:knows">
<benadida> <span property="foaf:name">Ben</span>
<benadida> </div>
Ben: This is useful for a lot of cases
<benadida> <div rel="foaf:knows" instanceof="foaf:Person">
<benadida> <div about="#bar" rel="foaf:knows" instanceof="foaf:Person">
<benadida> <#bar> foaf:knows _:div0
Ben: Without the instanceof here,
it would mean the triple above
... but what does instanceof apply to? bar or bnode
... I think bnode
Mark: It feels like it should apply to the @about
<benadida> <div about="#bar" rel="foaf:knows">
<benadida> <link rel="rdf:type" href="foaf:Person">
<benadida> </div>
Mark: It would allow you to build up by adding more people to who you know
\s/MS/Ma/
Ben: So you agree?
Mark: Yes
<Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to ask what happens with additional id?
MH: What about if there is an id?
Ben: Not so fast
<Zakim> RalphS, you wanted to say if intuition doesn't match the specification we're creating a long-term problem for ourselves
Ralph: The intuition of people
coming fresh to this is important, and they are likely to
assume the subject in this case
... we shouldn't try to justify a non-intuitive
interpretation
Mark: If you add it
progressively, I think it makes sense
... maybe @about is going to be less common than we have
thought
... you could rewrite lots of examples differently, so that
href/resource would be more likely
Ben: The complication is that in
the past we have been annotating existing content
... [scribe doesn't understand]
Mark: You mean you think people will use href for the subject a lot
Ben: I can't say for sure
... but may be
... I think striping will happen in RDFa
... we do need a shorthand for rdf:type
... there is a necessar level of complexity
<benadida> <a about="/photo1" rel="license" href="http://cc.org/licenses/1.0/">foo</a>
Ben: we do need @about
<benadida> <span resource="/photo">
<benadida> <a rel="license" href="...">
<benadida> </span>
<benadida> <img rel="license" src=...>
Ralph: Does the right thing happen if you use img src= ?
Ben: Yes
Mark: You mean if the src has
/photo ?
... then you would need rev
Ralph: Then I think this is unintuitive
Ben: There might be complex rules for whacky use, but best practice will always be easy
Mark: We have to resolve what happens if @resource and @src coexist on an element
Ralph: I need to reread the thread
<RalphS> Ralph: I'm concerned about the intuition regarding <img src="/photo1" rel="license" href="http://c.org/licenses/1.0/" /> and the <a about="/photo1"> example
Ben: Please send your thoughts Steven before you go on vacation of possible
<mhausenblas> Please use -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFa/ProposedStructure as an example repository
Ben: Mark, we need to come up with a consistent story on this
<RalphS> next meeting: 26 July
[adjourn]
<scribe> Meeting: Weekly RDFa Teleconference
Yes, that's a RRSAgent bug
you are still listed
thanks!
<mhausenblas> take care, bye
s/^.Topic/Topic/
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.128 of Date: 2007/02/23 21:38:13 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/hrefon/href on/ Succeeded: s/youtry/you try/ Succeeded: s/nbot/not/ Succeeded: s/TH/Th/ Succeeded: s/=/= ?/ Succeeded: s/opic: @resource/Topic: @resource/ Succeeded: s/MArk/Mark/ Succeeded: s/Meeting: RDFa/Meeting: Weekly RDFa Teleconference/ FAILED: s/^.Topic/Topic/ Succeeded: i/opic: @resource/Topic: @resource and @href on same element Found Scribe: Steven Inferring ScribeNick: Steven Default Present: +043316876aaaa, mhausenblas, Ralph, Ben, Steven, Simone, markbirbeck Present: +043316876aaaa mhausenblas Ralph Ben Steven Simone markbirbeck Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0157.html Got date from IRC log name: 19 Jul 2007 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-rdfa-minutes.html People with action items: ben elias markb michaelh[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]