W3C

- DRAFT -

Weekly RDFa Teleconference

19 Jul 2007

Agenda

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
+043316876aaaa, mhausenblas, Ralph, Ben, Steven, Simone, markbirbeck
Regrets
Chair
Ben
Scribe
Steven

Contents


 

 

<RalphS> Agenda: name: Smith, MacKenzie

<RalphS> email: kenzie@MIT.EDU

<RalphS> oops, strike that

lol

<RalphS> previous 2007-07-12

<scribe> scribe: Steven

<mhausenblas>

<RalphS> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0157.html

<RalphS> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/actions/1

<RalphS> ACTION: Ben/Ralph to figure out the RDFa-GRDDL-profile URI (at w3.org) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action15] [DONE]

Action items

<RalphS> Ralph: I believe my request for http://www.w3.org/ns/rdfa in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Jun/0161.html will be approved

<scribe> ACTION: [NEW] Ben to sum up @href/@resource everywhere proposal [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]

<scribe> -- done

<scribe> ACTION: [PENDING] Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04] [CONTINUES]

<scribe> ACTION: Ben/Ralph to figure out the RDFa-GRDDL-profile URI (at w3.org) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action15] [DONE]

<scribe> ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10] [CONTINUES]

<scribe> ACTION: Mark get input from Joost on @HREF everywhere [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action14] [DONE]

<scribe> ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action25] [POSTPONED]

<scribe> ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content after October [CONTINUES] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]

@resource and @href on same element

Topic: @resource and @href on same element

Ben: What happens?

<mhausenblas> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0110.html

<mhausenblas> ->

Mh: How do you decide when something is dereferenceable?

Ben: URI vs URN?

MH: But with http: you don't know if a URI is dereferencable until you try

Ben: Example?

MH: [scribe misses]

Ben: No, the idea of @resource in this proposal is to override href in the same way that @content overrides the real content
... @resource always overrides @href for the semantic purpose

Bne: Any objections?

Steven: Sounds mostly harmless

Mark: In the case of @content we are thinking of the content providing the rdf:label
... in this case we could use the href in a similar way
... in any case the href shouldn't generate a new version of the same triple

Ben: Need more time?

Steven: Well I do, but I understand we are under time pressure

<Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to ask on @resource precedence ...

<Zakim> RalphS, you wanted to propose an action to make a test case

<benadida> ACTION: MichaelH to put together test cases for @resource @href on same element [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]

Steven: I suppose my only problem is that RDFa is getting more and more complicated, while it started off so simple

Ben: I think the fact that the clickable href may not be the semantic one is a good use case
... don't you think the similarity to @content convincing?

Steven: I have many times needed @content, but never felt the need for @resoruce

<RalphS> Simone: RDFa must remain simple to allow simple implementations.

Simone: [muffled]

Ben: Yes, but we mustn't be *too* simple
... it is a question of balance
... href should be mentioned iin the primer in the main section and @resource should be in the advanced section

<Simone> Simone: I think we may remain simple, actually people uses Microformats and not other, as You said Ben, we must found a Good balance for simplicity ;)

Ralph: I vote for keeping the primer simple, but I don't think we need a use case to justify this feature.
... in the primer
... but we do need it in the spec

<RalphS> Ralph: for interoperability we need to specify the behavior when both attributes are used in the same element

Steven: I'm worried that RDFa, which used to be describable in a paragraph is getting too complicated
... I haven't been convinced of the utility of @resoruce over just @href

<RalphS> http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-minutes#item02

Mark: Well, this is standard rdf stuff, why do you think it is OK to have an href to a non-dereferencable URI?

<RalphS> [RDFa] ISSUE-34: partial resolution to @href everywhere

Steven: I don't agree that it is so cut and dried that there is such a division

<mhausenblas> +q

<Zakim> RalphS, you wanted to say that we may not need to justify a use case

Mark: Well, is something an information resource or not?
... that is a good distinction
... otherwise you can't talk about web pages, make statements about webpages

Ben: We have another huge issue to discuss, so we are in a time bind here
... I have to ask if you can live with this
... especially since you are going on vacation

Steven: I hadn't taken the discussion last week as a resolution of the @resource issue

MH: Well, if you don't want to use @resource you don't have to use it
... it doesn't make the language more complicated

Ben: Well as an author, but not as a consumer

Ralph: We are concerned that @href should have effect outside of RDFa, and so is unsafe for us to rely on presentational behaviours, so I supported the addition of @resource
... I don't agree with Mark's interpretation about different types of URIs being approriate or not for the two attributes
... I think we need @resource because of href legacy
... I agree about avoiding complexity

<RalphS> Steven: looking at the messages in the thread about introducing @href and @resource together, I was shocked at the complexity of the additional rules

<RalphS> ... by slow accretion we've increased the complexity

<RalphS> ... I have a feeling of uneasiness about the addition of new rules

<RalphS> Ben: the additional rules had to do with the next issue, considering striping, not so much this one

Mark: But I haven't heard a good reason for why you think it is OK to put a URN in an href

Steven: But I don'; think that that is wrong
... a browser could dereference such a thing
... even if current browsers don't
... I can imagine ways it could be done

Mark: But the current practice for href is that it points at a dereferencable thing

Ralph: I didn't want this argument today
... but I don't think we need to differentiate between two sorts of URI

<Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to ask Steven about the scope of worry

MH: Steven, are you worried about complecity for authors or implementors?

Steven: Both, but mostly authors

<RalphS> Ralph: <a href="urn:..."> doesn't do very much useful in today's browsers but it's not improper.

Ben: Even if Mark is wrong, the risk is small
... in the future we could delete the feature if we don't need it

<markbirbeck> Ralph...it creates a blue link in today's browsers. :)

Ralph: I'd rather people use href, but I think there is a need for resource

Ben: The reason we think rdfa is better is because we have thought through the edge cases
... I hope you can live with this Steven
... I agree that it is bigger than it was, but that's because there is a lot of interest from other people

<RalphS> Steven: I am willing to live with @resource

Steven: I am willing to say I can live with it, in order to move forward

(I said the same about @class by the way)

RESOLUTION: @href and @resource everywhere

<benadida> ... and that @resource overrides @href as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0110.html

RESOLUTION: @resource overrides @href as per Ben's propoal

<mhausenblas> +1

<RalphS> I can live with this too

Ben: Steven's worries noted
... I had to live with not using @class, so I know how you feel

<RalphS> [telecon extended +15 mins]

interaction of @instanceof, @about, and @rel

Ben: Whatever @instanceof is called
... instanceof represents rdf:type

<benadida> <div rel="foaf:knows">

<benadida> <span property="foaf:name">Ben</span>

<benadida> </div>

Ben: This is useful for a lot of cases

<benadida> <div rel="foaf:knows" instanceof="foaf:Person">

<benadida> <div about="#bar" rel="foaf:knows" instanceof="foaf:Person">

<benadida> <#bar> foaf:knows _:div0

Ben: Without the instanceof here, it would mean the triple above
... but what does instanceof apply to? bar or bnode
... I think bnode

Mark: It feels like it should apply to the @about

<benadida> <div about="#bar" rel="foaf:knows">

<benadida> <link rel="rdf:type" href="foaf:Person">

<benadida> </div>

Mark: It would allow you to build up by adding more people to who you know

\s/MS/Ma/

Ben: So you agree?

Mark: Yes

<Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to ask what happens with additional id?

MH: What about if there is an id?

Ben: Not so fast

<Zakim> RalphS, you wanted to say if intuition doesn't match the specification we're creating a long-term problem for ourselves

Ralph: The intuition of people coming fresh to this is important, and they are likely to assume the subject in this case
... we shouldn't try to justify a non-intuitive interpretation

Mark: If you add it progressively, I think it makes sense
... maybe @about is going to be less common than we have thought
... you could rewrite lots of examples differently, so that href/resource would be more likely

Ben: The complication is that in the past we have been annotating existing content
... [scribe doesn't understand]

Mark: You mean you think people will use href for the subject a lot

Ben: I can't say for sure
... but may be
... I think striping will happen in RDFa
... we do need a shorthand for rdf:type
... there is a necessar level of complexity

<benadida> <a about="/photo1" rel="license" href="http://cc.org/licenses/1.0/">foo</a>

Ben: we do need @about

<benadida> <span resource="/photo">

<benadida> <a rel="license" href="...">

<benadida> </span>

<benadida> <img rel="license" src=...>

Ralph: Does the right thing happen if you use img src= ?

Ben: Yes

Mark: You mean if the src has /photo ?
... then you would need rev

Ralph: Then I think this is unintuitive

Ben: There might be complex rules for whacky use, but best practice will always be easy

Mark: We have to resolve what happens if @resource and @src coexist on an element

Ralph: I need to reread the thread

<RalphS> Ralph: I'm concerned about the intuition regarding <img src="/photo1" rel="license" href="http://c.org/licenses/1.0/" /> and the <a about="/photo1"> example

Ben: Please send your thoughts Steven before you go on vacation of possible

<mhausenblas> Please use -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFa/ProposedStructure as an example repository

Ben: Mark, we need to come up with a consistent story on this

<RalphS> next meeting: 26 July

[adjourn]

<scribe> Meeting: Weekly RDFa Teleconference

Yes, that's a RRSAgent bug

you are still listed

thanks!

<mhausenblas> take care, bye

s/^.Topic/Topic/

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Ben to sum up @href/@resource everywhere proposal [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]
[NEW] ACTION: MichaelH to put together test cases for @resource @href on same element [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
 
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
[PENDING] ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
[PENDING] ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content after October [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
 
[POSTPONED] ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action25]
 
[DONE] ACTION: Ben/Ralph to figure out the RDFa-GRDDL-profile URI (at w3.org) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
[DONE] ACTION: Mark get input from Joost on @HREF everywhere [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
 
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.128 (CVS log)
$Date: 2007/07/19 16:29:59 $

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

[Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.128  of Date: 2007/02/23 21:38:13  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/hrefon/href on/
Succeeded: s/youtry/you try/
Succeeded: s/nbot/not/
Succeeded: s/TH/Th/
Succeeded: s/=/= ?/
Succeeded: s/opic: @resource/Topic: @resource/
Succeeded: s/MArk/Mark/
Succeeded: s/Meeting: RDFa/Meeting: Weekly RDFa Teleconference/
FAILED: s/^.Topic/Topic/
Succeeded: i/opic: @resource/Topic: @resource and @href on same element
Found Scribe: Steven
Inferring ScribeNick: Steven
Default Present: +043316876aaaa, mhausenblas, Ralph, Ben, Steven, Simone, markbirbeck
Present: +043316876aaaa mhausenblas Ralph Ben Steven Simone markbirbeck
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0157.html
Got date from IRC log name: 19 Jul 2007
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-rdfa-minutes.html
People with action items: ben elias markb michaelh

[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]