IRC log of rdfa on 2007-07-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:52:35 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
14:52:35 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-rdfa-irc
14:52:39 [RalphS]
Meeting: RDFa
14:52:44 [RalphS]
zakim, this will be rdfa
14:52:44 [Zakim]
ok, RalphS; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
14:52:50 [RalphS]
rrsagent, please make record public
14:59:24 [Zakim]
SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
14:59:31 [Zakim]
+ +043316876aaaa
14:59:42 [RalphS]
Agenda: name: Smith, MacKenzie
14:59:42 [RalphS]
email: kenzie@MIT.EDU
14:59:52 [RalphS]
oops, strike that
14:59:54 [Steven]
lol
14:59:55 [mhausenblas]
Zakim, aaaa is me
14:59:55 [Zakim]
+mhausenblas; got it
15:00:29 [RalphS]
-> http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-minutes previous 2007-07-12
15:01:18 [Zakim]
+Ralph
15:01:29 [benadida]
benadida has joined #rdfa
15:01:55 [RalphS]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0157.html
15:02:23 [Zakim]
+Ben
15:02:37 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
15:02:37 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:02:39 [Zakim]
+Steven
15:02:39 [Steven]
scribe: Steven
15:04:06 [mhausenblas]
-> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/users/14
15:04:19 [Simone]
Simone has joined #rdfa
15:04:42 [RalphS]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0157.html
15:04:48 [RalphS]
http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/actions/1
15:05:52 [benadida]
zakim, who is on the call?
15:05:52 [Zakim]
On the phone I see mhausenblas, Ralph, Ben, Steven
15:06:58 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben/Ralph to figure out the RDFa-GRDDL-profile URI (at w3.org) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
15:07:02 [RalphS]
-- done
15:07:06 [Steven]
Topic: Action items
15:07:54 [RalphS]
Ralph: I believe my request for http://www.w3.org/ns/rdfa in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Jun/0161.html will be approved
15:08:03 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
15:08:16 [markbirbeck]
zakim, code?
15:08:16 [Zakim]
the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
15:08:24 [Simone]
Zakim, IPcaller is me
15:08:24 [Zakim]
+Simone; got it
15:08:49 [Zakim]
+??P24
15:08:52 [markbirbeck]
zakim, i am ?
15:08:52 [Zakim]
+markbirbeck; got it
15:09:14 [Steven]
[NEW] ACTION: Ben to sum up @href/@resource everywhere proposal [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]
15:09:14 [Steven]
15:09:20 [Steven]
-- done
15:10:07 [Steven]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
15:10:17 [Steven]
-- Continues
15:10:30 [Steven]
ACTION: Ben/Ralph to figure out the RDFa-GRDDL-profile URI (at w3.org) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
15:10:33 [Steven]
-- done
15:10:49 [Steven]
ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
15:10:56 [Steven]
-- Continues
15:11:07 [Steven]
ACTION: Mark get input from Joost on @HREF everywhere [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
15:11:10 [Steven]
-- done
15:12:03 [Steven]
ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action25]
15:13:03 [Steven]
-- postponed
15:13:55 [Steven]
ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content after October
15:14:04 [Steven]
ACTION: Shane investigate the @xml:base validation issue [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action02]
15:14:04 [Steven]
15:14:09 [Steven]
-- continues
15:14:49 [Steven]
opic: @resource and @hrefon same element
15:14:53 [mhausenblas]
q+ to ask on @resource precedence ...
15:14:57 [Steven]
s/hrefon/href on/
15:15:05 [Steven]
Ben: What happens?
15:15:23 [mhausenblas]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0110.html
15:15:58 [mhausenblas]
-> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/semantic-web/2007Jun/0022.html
15:16:38 [Steven]
Mh: How do you decide when something is dereferenceable?
15:16:59 [Steven]
Ben: URI vs URN?
15:17:21 [Steven]
MH: But with http: you don't know if a URI is dereferencable until youtry
15:17:42 [Steven]
s/youtry/you try/
15:17:52 [Steven]
Ben: Example?
15:18:25 [Steven]
MH: [scribe misses]
15:18:58 [Steven]
Ben: No, the idea of @resource in this proposal is to override href in the same way that @content overrides the real content
15:19:22 [Steven]
... @resource always overrides @href for the semantic purpose
15:20:04 [Steven]
Bne: Any objections?
15:20:10 [Steven]
Steven: Sounds mostly harmless
15:20:38 [Steven]
Mark: In the case of @content we are thinking of the content providing the rdf:label
15:20:48 [Steven]
... in this case we could use the href in a similar way
15:21:17 [Steven]
... in any case the href shouldn't generate a new version of the same triple
15:21:34 [RalphS]
q+ to propose an action to make a test case
15:21:44 [Steven]
Ben: Need more time?
15:21:54 [Steven]
Steven: Well I do, but I understand we are under time pressure
15:21:56 [Zakim]
mhausenblas, you wanted to ask on @resource precedence ...
15:22:46 [Zakim]
RalphS, you wanted to propose an action to make a test case
15:22:55 [benadida]
ACTION: MichaelH to put together test cases for @resource @href on same element
15:23:22 [Steven]
Steven: I suppose my only problem is that RDFa is getting more and more complicated, while it started off so simple
15:24:33 [Steven]
Ben: I think the fact that the clickable href may not be the semantic one is a good use case
15:24:47 [Steven]
.. don't you think the similarity to @content convincing?
15:25:07 [Steven]
Steven: I have many times needed @content, but never felt the need for @resoruce
15:25:12 [RalphS]
q+ to say that we may not need to justify a use case
15:27:09 [RalphS]
Simone: RDFa must remain simple to allow simple implementations.
15:27:13 [Steven]
Simone: [muffled]
15:27:45 [Steven]
Ben: Yes, but we mustn't be *too* simple
15:27:52 [Steven]
... it is a question of balance
15:28:22 [Steven]
... href should be mentioned iin the primer in the main section and @resource should be in the advanced section
15:28:41 [Simone]
Simone: I think we may remain simple, actually people uses Microformats and not other, as You said Ben, we must found a Good balance for simplicity ;)
15:29:29 [Steven]
Ralph: I vote for keeping the primer simple, but I don't think we need a use case to justify this feature.
15:31:08 [Steven]
... in the primer
15:31:15 [Steven]
... but we do need it in the spec
15:32:11 [RalphS]
Ralph: for interoperability we need to specify the behavior when both attributes are used in the same element
15:33:42 [Steven]
Steven: I'm worried that RDFa, which used to be describable in a paragraph is getting too complicated
15:34:19 [Steven]
... I haven't been convinced of the utility of @resoruce over just @href
15:35:03 [RalphS]
http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-minutes#item02
15:37:01 [Steven]
Mark: Well, this is standard rdf stuff, why do you think it is OK to have an href to a non-dereferencable URI?
15:37:19 [RalphS]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0110.html [RDFa] ISSUE-34: partial resolution to @href everywhere
15:37:36 [Steven]
Steven: I don't agree that it is so cut and dried that there is such a division
15:37:39 [mhausenblas]
+q
15:37:48 [Zakim]
RalphS, you wanted to say that we may not need to justify a use case
15:37:50 [Steven]
Mark: Well, is something an information resource or not?
15:37:56 [Steven]
... that is a good distinction
15:38:02 [RalphS]
q+
15:38:15 [Steven]
... otherwise you can't talk about web pages, make statements about webpages
15:38:42 [Steven]
Ben: We have another huge issue to discuss, so we are in a time bind here
15:39:04 [Steven]
... I have to ask if you can live with this
15:39:12 [Steven]
... especially since you are going on vacation
15:43:07 [Steven]
Steven: I hadn't taken the discussion last week as a resolution of the @resource issue
15:43:31 [Steven]
MH: Well, if you don't want to use @resource you don't have to use it
15:43:47 [Steven]
... it doesn't make the language more complicated
15:43:51 [Steven]
q+
15:44:24 [Steven]
Ben: Well as an author, but not as a consumer
15:45:41 [Steven]
Ralph: We are concerned that @href should have effect outside of RDFa, and so is unsafe for us to rely on presentational behaviours, so I supported the addition of @resource
15:46:22 [Steven]
... I don't agree with Mark's interpretation about different types of URIs being approriate or not for the two attributes
15:46:42 [Steven]
... I think we need @resource because of href legacy
15:47:04 [Steven]
... I agree about avoiding complexity
15:48:34 [RalphS]
Steven: looking at the messages in the thread about introducing @href and @resource together, I was shocked at the complexity of the additional rules
15:48:54 [RalphS]
... by slow accretion we've increased the complexity
15:49:13 [RalphS]
... I have a feeling of uneasiness about the addition of new rules
15:49:56 [RalphS]
Ben: the additional rules had to do with the next issue, considering striping, not so much this one
15:51:26 [mhausenblas]
q+ to ask Steven about the scope of worry
15:51:43 [Steven]
Mark: But I haven't heard a good reason for why you think it is OK to put a URN in an href
15:51:52 [Steven]
Steven: But I don'; think that that is wrong
15:52:04 [Steven]
... a browser could dereference such a thing
15:52:12 [Steven]
... even if current browsers don't
15:52:20 [Steven]
... I can imagine ways it could be done
15:52:53 [Steven]
Mark: But the current practice for href is that it points at a dereferencable thing
15:53:29 [Steven]
Ralph: I didn't want this argument today
15:53:43 [Steven]
... but I don't think we need to differentiate between two sorts of URI
15:54:13 [mhausenblas]
Zakim, ack me
15:54:13 [Zakim]
mhausenblas, you wanted to ask Steven about the scope of worry
15:54:14 [Zakim]
I see RalphS, Steven on the speaker queue
15:54:38 [Steven]
MH: Steven, are you worried about complecity for authors or implementors?
15:54:48 [Steven]
Steven: Both, but mostly authors
15:55:24 [RalphS]
Ralph: <a href="urn:..."> doesn't do very much useful in today's browsers but it's not improper.
15:55:31 [Steven]
Ben: Even if Mark is wrong, the risk is small
15:55:59 [Steven]
... in the future we could delete the feature if we don't need it
15:56:00 [markbirbeck]
Ralph...it creates a blue link in today's browsers. :)
15:56:35 [Steven]
Ralph: I'd rather people use href, but I think there is a need for resource
15:57:23 [Steven]
Ben: The reason we think rdfa is better is because we have thought through the edge cases
15:57:31 [Steven]
... I hope you can live with this Steven
15:57:55 [Steven]
... I agree that it is bigger than it was, but that's because there is a lot of interest from other people
15:58:24 [RalphS]
Steven: I am willing to live with @resource
15:58:33 [Steven]
Steven: I am willing to say I can live with it, in order to move forward
15:58:40 [Steven]
(I said the same about @class by the way)
15:58:56 [Steven]
RESOLUTION: @href and @resource everywhere
15:59:09 [benadida]
... and that @resource overrides @href as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0110.html
15:59:20 [Steven]
RESOLUTION: @resource overrides @href as per Ben's propoal
15:59:28 [mhausenblas]
+1
15:59:48 [RalphS]
I can live with this too
15:59:49 [Steven]
Ben: Steven's worries noted
16:00:04 [Steven]
... I had to live with nbot using @class, so I know how you feel
16:00:34 [Steven]
s/nbot/not/
16:01:01 [RalphS]
[telecon extended +15 mins]
16:01:08 [Steven]
Topic: interaction of @instanceof, @about, and @rel
16:01:20 [Steven]
Ben: Whatever @instanceof is called
16:01:43 [Steven]
Ben: instanceof represents rdf:type
16:01:56 [benadida]
<div rel="foaf:knows">
16:02:01 [benadida]
<span property="foaf:name">Ben</span>
16:02:02 [benadida]
</div>
16:02:20 [Steven]
Ben: THis is useful for a lot of cases
16:02:22 [benadida]
<div rel="foaf:knows" instanceof="foaf:Person">
16:02:28 [Steven]
s/TH/Th/
16:02:52 [benadida]
<div about="#bar" rel="foaf:knows" instanceof="foaf:Person">
16:03:06 [benadida]
<#bar> foaf:knows _:div0
16:03:14 [Steven]
Ben: Without the instanceof here, it would mean the triple above
16:03:32 [Steven]
... but what does instanceof apply to? bar or bnode
16:03:35 [Steven]
... I think bnode
16:04:20 [Steven]
Mark: It feels like it should apply to the @about
16:04:36 [benadida]
<div about="#bar" rel="foaf:knows">
16:04:43 [benadida]
<link rel="rdf:type" href="foaf:Person">
16:04:44 [benadida]
</div>
16:05:11 [RalphS]
q+ to say if intuition doesn't match the specification we're creating a long-term problem for ourselves
16:05:21 [Steven]
q-
16:05:53 [Steven]
MArk: It would allow you to build up by adding more people to who you know
16:05:57 [mhausenblas]
q+ to ask what happens with additional id?
16:06:01 [Steven]
\s/MS/Ma/
16:06:06 [Steven]
Ben: So you agree?
16:06:08 [Steven]
Mark: Yes
16:06:15 [Zakim]
mhausenblas, you wanted to ask what happens with additional id?
16:06:20 [Steven]
MH: What about if there is an id?
16:06:24 [Steven]
Ben: Not so fast
16:06:30 [markbirbeck]
q+ when we get to @id
16:06:32 [mhausenblas]
ack me
16:06:36 [Zakim]
RalphS, you wanted to say if intuition doesn't match the specification we're creating a long-term problem for ourselves
16:06:43 [markbirbeck]
q+
16:07:28 [Steven]
Ralph: The intuition of people coming fresh to this is important, and they are likely to assume the subject in this case
16:08:01 [Steven]
... we shouldn't try to justify a non-intuitive interpretation
16:08:20 [Steven]
Mark: If you add it progressively, I think it makes sense
16:08:38 [Steven]
... maybe @about is going to be less common than we have thought
16:09:45 [Steven]
... you could rewrite lots of examples differently, so that href/resource would be more likely
16:09:58 [mhausenblas]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:09:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas
16:10:16 [Steven]
Ben: The complication is that in the past we have been annotating existing content
16:11:21 [Steven]
... [scribe doesn't understand]
16:12:09 [mhausenblas]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:12:29 [Steven]
Mark: You mean you think people will use href for the subject a lot
16:12:34 [Steven]
Ben: I can't say for sure
16:12:40 [Steven]
... but may be
16:12:56 [Steven]
... I think striping will happen in RDFa
16:13:07 [Steven]
... we do need a shorthand for rdf:type
16:13:47 [Steven]
... there is a necessar level of complexity
16:13:52 [benadida]
<a about="/photo1" rel="license" href="http://cc.org/licenses/1.0/">foo</a>
16:13:53 [Steven]
... we do need @about
16:14:11 [benadida]
<span resource="/photo">
16:14:15 [benadida]
<a rel="license" href="...">
16:14:16 [benadida]
</span>
16:14:41 [benadida]
<img rel="license" src=...>
16:14:49 [Steven]
Ralph: Does the right thing happen if you use img src=
16:14:57 [Steven]
s/=/= ?/
16:15:12 [Steven]
Ben: Yes
16:15:32 [Steven]
Mark: You mean if the src has /photo ?
16:15:42 [Steven]
... then you would need rev
16:15:46 [mhausenblas]
q+
16:16:00 [Steven]
Ralph: Then I think this is unintuitive
16:16:30 [Steven]
Ben: There might be complex rules for whacky use, but best practice will always be easy
16:17:10 [Steven]
Mark: We have to resolve what happens if @resource and @src coexist on an element
16:18:07 [Steven]
Ralph: I need to reread the thread
16:18:32 [RalphS]
Ralph: I'm concerned about the intuition regarding <img src="/photo1" rel="license" href="http://c.org/licenses/1.0/" /> and the <a about="/photo1"> example
16:18:35 [Steven]
Ben: Please send your thoughts Steven before you go on vacation of possible
16:18:55 [mhausenblas]
Please use -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFa/ProposedStructure as an example repository
16:18:58 [Steven]
... Mark, we need to come up with a consistent story on this
16:19:26 [Zakim]
-Simone
16:19:27 [RalphS]
next meeting: 26 July
16:19:28 [Zakim]
-Steven
16:19:28 [Zakim]
-markbirbeck
16:19:29 [Zakim]
-Ben
16:19:32 [Steven]
[adjourn]
16:19:33 [Zakim]
-mhausenblas
16:19:34 [Zakim]
-Ralph
16:19:35 [Zakim]
SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
16:19:36 [Zakim]
Attendees were +043316876aaaa, mhausenblas, Ralph, Ben, Steven, Simone, markbirbeck
16:19:40 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:19:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-rdfa-minutes.html Steven
16:19:58 [Steven]
Meeting: Weekly RDFa Teleconference
16:20:04 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:20:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-rdfa-minutes.html Steven
16:20:12 [Steven]
Chair: Ben
16:20:41 [Steven]
Yes, that's a RRSAgent bug
16:20:46 [Steven]
you are still listed
16:21:19 [Steven]
s/opic: @resource/Topic: @resource/
16:21:24 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:21:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-rdfa-minutes.html Steven
16:22:26 [Steven]
s/MArk/Mark/
16:22:42 [Steven]
thanks!
16:23:00 [mhausenblas]
take care, bye
16:23:10 [benadida]
benadida has left #rdfa
16:26:39 [Steven]
s/Meeting: RDFa/Meeting: Weekly RDFa Teleconference/
16:28:00 [Steven]
s/^.Topic/Topic/
16:28:05 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:28:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-rdfa-minutes.html Steven
16:29:48 [Steven]
i/opic: @resource/Topic: @resource and @href on same element/
16:29:53 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:29:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-rdfa-minutes.html Steven
16:58:27 [RalphS]
zakim, bye
16:58:27 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #rdfa
16:59:01 [RalphS]
rrsagent, bye
16:59:01 [RRSAgent]
I see 8 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-rdfa-actions.rdf :
16:59:01 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben/Ralph to figure out the RDFa-GRDDL-profile URI (at w3.org) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action15] [1]
16:59:01 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-rdfa-irc#T15-06-58
16:59:01 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben/Ralph to figure out the RDFa-GRDDL-profile URI (at w3.org) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action15] [2]
16:59:01 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-rdfa-irc#T15-10-30
16:59:01 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10] [3]
16:59:01 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-rdfa-irc#T15-10-49
16:59:01 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Mark get input from Joost on @HREF everywhere [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action14] [4]
16:59:01 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-rdfa-irc#T15-11-07
16:59:01 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action25] [5]
16:59:01 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-rdfa-irc#T15-12-03
16:59:01 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content after October [6]
16:59:01 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-rdfa-irc#T15-13-55
16:59:01 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Shane investigate the @xml:base validation issue [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action02] [7]
16:59:01 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-rdfa-irc#T15-14-04
16:59:01 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: MichaelH to put together test cases for @resource @href on same element [8]
16:59:01 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-rdfa-irc#T15-22-55