RDF-in-XHTML Task Force

 

 

<RalphS> did Elias post minutes of last week?

<RalphS> previous 2007-03-19

<RalphS> well, those are still raw/unedited

<RalphS> but I suppose they'll have to do

<RalphS> [checking inbox to be sure I didn't miss mail from Elias with an updated attachment ...]

<RalphS> [nope, don't see any update]

<RalphS> ACTION: Ben start a list of RDF/XML features that are not supported by RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action01] [CONTINUES]

Action Review

<RalphS> ACTION: [DONE] Ben to get back in touch with Ian about eRDF/RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]

<RalphS> ACTION: Ben to include agenda item for approval of existing tests [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action02] [CONTINUES]

<RalphS> ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04] [CONTINUES]

<RalphS> Scribe: mhausenblas

<scribe> ScribeNick: mhausenblas

<RalphS> Scribe: Michael

<RalphS> ACTION: MarkB to ask Shane to make his document public [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action23] [CONTINUES]

<RalphS> ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action25]

<RalphS> -- continues

<RalphS> Mark: that came from IPTC work; element content becomes rdfs:label

<RalphS> ACTION: Wing add a property to the test case schema for tracking origin and approval of an individual test [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]

<wing> http://www.w3.org/2000/10/rdf-tests/rdfcore/testSchema#

<wing> http://www.w3.org/2000/10/rdf-tests/rdfcore/testSchema#discussion

<wing> http://www.w3.org/2000/10/rdf-tests/rdfcore/testSchema#issue

<RalphS> -- done

<RalphS> Wing: I'll add some examples into the existing test cases

<RalphS> ACTION: Ben to take a look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Jun/0001.html to see if issue has been resolved [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action17] [CONTINUES]

<RalphS> ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary relations from IPTC documents [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-minutes.html#action08] [CONTINUES]

<RalphS> ACTION: Mark produce RDFa XHTML 1.1 module and spec [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action06] [CONTINUES]

<RalphS> Mark: still needs a public version, plus some questions from Shane to me to which he'd like answers

<RalphS> ... Shane may be holding public version awaiting my answers

<RalphS> ACTION: Mark produce RDFa XHTML 1.1 module using XML Schema [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action06] [CONTINUES]

<RalphS> Mark: that's part of discussion with Shane

<RalphS> ACTION: [DONE] Michael continue work on the FAQ template that Elias started [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]

--> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Mar/0076.html FAQ Wiki update by Simone

<RalphS> ACTION: [DONE] Michael to prepare RDF/XML - RDFa comparison wiki page [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action09]

<RalphS> Michael: Simone did that one

<RalphS> ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01] [CONTINUES]

<RalphS> ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10] [CONTINUES]

<RalphS> ACTION: Elias to look for cases where plain literal is more of a common use. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action24] [CONTINUES]

RDFa Test Cases

<RalphS> scribenick: ralphs

Michael: Wing is working hard on adapting all the new test cases
... I'm waiting for approval from the group to move 29 or 30 more in
... does this approval need to come from TF or from the WG?
... these 29 or 30 will be the initial set
... can then make more from Primer or from the mailing list
... hope to have initial ones done this week
... can think about using test suite for REC-track
... please look at what's there and comment

<mhausenblas> RDFa Test Suite

Ralph: regarding 'approval', I suggest that Task Force approval is sufficient and we'll get review from the two WGs when we propose to publish a document

Mark: I've been using the data but most of my work is client-side so I haven't been trying to use the test suite directly
... ... I have a client-side RDFa parser that supports plug-ins
... xforms processor allows 'selenium' plug-ins too

<MarkB> It's called Selenium...

<MarkB> ...and it's by OpenQA.

<Steven> http://internet-apps.blogspot.com/2007/03/formsplayer-provides-support-for.html

<Steven> http://www.openqa.org/selenium/

XMLLiteral

<mhausenblas> Ralph: Who wants to sum up?

<mhausenblas> Steven: Looks like we are converging

<scribe> scribenick: mhausenblas

Ralph: Anybody implemented current proposal?

Mark: I did

<Steven> Steven: It looks like we are converging on a consensus position of "If there is markup it is a literal, if not, it is plain text, and values of @datatype are available to override the default"

Mark: Regarding lookahead (SAX) ... some worries from Elias
... though possible to do
... One thing not commented on the list is (from Ivan)
... does author know what to do with the markup?
... lots of UC that are applicable
... two issues: what is the default from a RDF store
... second issue (separate): should there be a kind of lossless markup
... example: table with person props from FOAF
... here, the markup is not expected in the output
... put aside XMLLiteral, start with markup
... Is the mode of detection correct?
... imposing plain literal thing
... other way round: found markup - now let's use it

Ralph: Find out via UC

Mark: Should we take this to the HTML WG?

<Steven> +1 to Ralph

<Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to as how uf handle this

<RalphS> Michael: the microformat community has somehow been dealing with this question

<RalphS> ... do we know what they've done?

<RalphS> ... could we invite someone from microformats to chat with us?

<RalphS> Mark: microformats gets around this problem by writing very specific examples

<RalphS> ... they've mostly not worried about generalizing

Steven: UC RSS

<RalphS> Steven: one of my major use cases is to be able to embed RSS in my documents, so I absolutely would want XMLliteral as the default

Mark: Agree with Steven, need input from Elias - maybe generate both

<Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to propose another solution

<RalphS> Mark: we could consider generating both plain literal and XML literal

<RalphS> ... there's already a way to use bnodes

<RalphS> Michael: perhaps let the author specify a per-document default

<RalphS> Mark: something like xml:space='preserve'; the author can specify which way the parser should work

<RalphS> ... or maybe SPAN has one behaviour and TABLE has another

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Nov/0024.html something like this

<RalphS> Mark: maybe specify the default processing on a per-element basis

<RalphS> Steven: doesn't appeal to me; I prefer that the markup be generic

<RalphS> Michael: the only one who knows what is meant to happen with his/her triples is the page author

<RalphS> Mark: if we acknowledge that triple stores do have a problem [I disgree], don't we have to insure that things come out consistently?

<RalphS> ... if we agree there's an issue then it needs to be solved in the markup

<RalphS> ... an author not familiar with these issues would not think to turn off XMLLiteral processing

<RalphS> ... we have to decide our fundamental assumptions

<RalphS> ... when I was testing Ivan's examples ages ago, I rewrote his queries using functions that extracted literal lexical values and they worked fine

<RalphS> ... but people now seem to be saying this isn't the right way to do it

Ralph: Basis should be implementations, evaluations, and research
... also relevant for TC

Mark: We first need to understand more from the RDF triple store issue from Elias before we can proceed

Ralph: Right. Process is first to identify how presence of markup means
... then agree on how to flag that

Mark: Might not be sufficient; we might not be able to tell from markup presence
... when RDF store can handle this downstream, we are able to keep everything

<RalphS> "keep everything" means use XMLliteral

Mark: that is preserve all the markup (Elias will bring in results)

<RalphS> and "handle this" may be at the SPARQL query level

<RalphS> next meeting: April 2

<MarkB> for example, by using a query that compares on lexical values

<RalphS> Steven: April 9 is Easter holidy