RDF-in-XHTML Task Force

 Simone: my name is pronounced (as Ralph hears it) "see moan eh"

Action Items

ACTION: Michael to prepare RDF/XML - RDFa comparison wiki page [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action09] [CONTINUES]

Michael: I agreed to support that action for Ben

<mhausenblas> RiR

Michael: RiR is meant to be a list of features supported by RDFa
... e.g. containers probably are 'in', reification is probably 'out'
... I can add more detail to the list and I may have missed some features

Ben: TimBL might add some examples of N3 that cannot be expressed in RDFa
... what are the 'levels' meant to indicate?

Michael: links point to QA document
... allows for incremental enhancement of a spec

Ben: I worry this idea of 'levels' might imply more complication than there really is

Michael: we should decide whether to say 'this is all we support and no more' or indicate possible future features

Ralph: is it still useful to have a Wiki page so the community can edit?

Ben: I think so

Michael: I can prepare a discussion of this in the Wiki
... don't want to duplicate work

ACTION: [DONE] Ralph to check if the test suite can be hosted at the W3C--is Tomcat available? [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]

-> action progress: test suite hosting [Ralph 2007-02-26]

ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01] [CONTINUES]

ACTION: Ben start a list of RDF/XML features that are not supported by RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action01] [CONTINUES]

ACTION: [WITHDRAWN] Ben to contemplate about the Dev Track [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/05-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]

Ben: I thought about it so long that I missed the deadline
... I might talk during the W3C track

ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04] [CONTINUES]

Ben: making some progress; Use Case document updated to include a little bit of Science Commons example
... still hope for a big realistic example to include

ACTION: Ben to update RDFa schedule on wiki to aim for last call on June 1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action09] [CONTINUES]

Ben: I'd like feedback on this

ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10] [CONTINUES]

Elias: I also am looking for a use case that adds more specifics
... deciding whether to go to WWW2007 or XTech; I submitted an RDFa/GRDDL talk

Ben: a Use Case can be more abstract; can show "here's the triples we'd like to produce"

ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary relations from IPTC documents [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-minutes.html#action08] [CONTINUES]

ACTION: Michael continue work on the FAQ template that Elias started [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action10] [CONTINUES]

<mhausenblas> RDFa FAQ

Ben: Simone, comments on the FAQ from your new fresh eyes would be especially useful

Latest Documents (Primer and Scenarios)

Ben: I commited new updates to Primer and Scenarios on Friday
... mostly editorial, related to comments received

-> Update to RDFa Scenarios, including response to Comments [Ben 2007-03-02]

Ben: one comment remaining on clarifying the predicates should be cleaned up
... the document currently assumes namespaced classes
... are we comfortable enough with this to publish these WDs as they are?

Ralph: "publish, publish, publish" It's not going to be perfect

Steven: don't say I didn't warn you

Ralph: WAI-ARIA is emphasizing use of @role, so I certainly don't think this discussion is over
... but let's publish and get comments

<EliasT> I'm +1 to publishing. (dialing back in)

PROPOSE: publish Primer and Scenarios as WDs

<mhausenblas> +1

<wing> +1

<RalphS> +1

<Simone> +1

Steven: warning, re: use of @class

RESOLVED Ask WG to publish Primer and Scenarios as WDs

Ben: I would like to respond to Antoine's comment about multiple @rel and @property before publishing; I think it is one sentence

Test Suite Update

-> RDFa Test Suite

Ben: we're not providing enough feedback on the test suite

<mhausenblas> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Mar/0010.html

Michael: DanC has given us lots of test suite feedback
... I'd like us to settle whether we're going to try to do conformance testing or not

Michael: I would like just to claim that "any tool that claims to be RDFa-compliant has to correctly parse all the test cases"
... i.e. passing test suite is necessary but may not be sufficient
... DanC was commenting about what conformance testing could or should be
... he felt that we could not do conformance testing
... I hope to prove that something is conforming but not to try to prove non-conformance
... many specifications already provide conformance tests, though perhaps not as strong as what I envision

Elias: is the problem just because of the word "conformance"? If so, let's drop that word

Michael: look at -> my response to Dan
... an agent that claims to be RDFa-aware must pass the test suite, but passing the test suite does not guarantee the agent is conforming

Ben: what is the GRDDL test suite called?

Elias: W3C does not bless implementations, so we're not required to do conformance tests
... all we need to do is provide guidance to developers

Steven: the real reason for a test suite is to test the _specification_

Ralph: I agree with Steven. DanC has used the test suite to determine how the WG has responded to a question.
... if a question is raised, one should develop a test to show how to answer it
... Dan has encouraged us to write a test case in response to any technical discussion.

<mhausenblas> Conformance testing discussion on QA

Ben: so this seems to be about the usage of the term "conformance"
... I recommend continuing to build the input/output tests but drop the word "conformance"

Michael: an agent can always trick the test suite by producing exactly what it requires yet not be a true implementation

Ben: so the test suite is to help developers, help test the specification, but *not* to test implementations

Elias: the SPARQL test suite gives a set of files and the expected output
... every SPARQL developer downloads the test suite and runs it themselves, then they can debate the test suite
... the SPARQL test suite does not invoke any code; it's just the input and expected output

Mark: I agree that input and expected output is what Michael was doing but I don't think that is all we should do
... I'd like to provide an interface for people to test their endpoints
... concerned about only REST-based endpoint, as we haven't specified a REST requirement
... we should stop at just describing inputs and outputs
... the other side of what Dan is getting at is 'anytime we mention RDFa in a document we should add to the test suite'
... the moment we create a sample or a line of text in a paragraph, reflect this in the test suite with an input and output document

Ben: are you suggesting we drop the REST test harness?

Mark: no, it's useful but don't make it mandatory
... the REST harness should not be "the test suite" itself

<mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/testcases/rdfa-test-manifest.rdf

Michael: agree. First we should look at the manifest file

<mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/testcases/

Michael: rdfa-test-manifest is the source; everything else is generated by Wing's script

<mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/run-tc.html

<wing> test case results are still TTL

Michael: test runner is supplemental; it just helps test REST-based endpoints, but I'm happy to move the test runner elsewhere
... the mandatory part is just the manifest and the test case directory
... we've taken Mark's suggestion to add a SPARQL query to test that the expected triples are present
... the test asssertions are generated from the manifest

Elias: what property is available in the manifest to cite, e.g. the irc log where we discuss a test?

<mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/#RDFaTests

Michael: see 'status'

Elias: I'm looking for a property that describes why the test was written

<mhausenblas> pls choose one from http://www.w3.org/QA/2005/08/test-case-metadata.html

Wing: we can use seeAlso

Elias: also record when we accepted or rejected a test

ACTION: Wing add a property to the test case schema for tracking origin and approval of an individual test [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]

Mark: sounds like we're moving closer to a W3C test ontology

Wing: yep, we've been following that

Ben: are we outputting RDFa on the test suite page? :)

Michael: we've thought about that but aren't doing it yet

XHTML 1.1 Module Update

ACTION: Mark produce RDFa XHTML 1.1 module and spec [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action06] [CONTINUES]

Mark: there's a document describing the modularization
... I've given comments to Shane
... sadly, Shane is ill right now
... he had agreed to write the schemas
... the RDFa schemas I wrote don't (yet) drop in smoothly
... I will work on this myself in Shane's absence
... I won't be able to pick this up again until next week
... I'll do the schemas and then we can review

ACTION: Mark to put M12N schema up somewhere, and tell us where [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/29-htmltf-minutes.html#action01] [CONTINUES]

Ben: would March 19 be a reasonable date to expect to see update schemas?

Mark: I have had schemas on my server but they're old

Ben: we should have some versions published in the W3C process to get feedback
... I don't want this to be a rushed, last-minute thing

Mark: the work on XHTML modularization has been underway for a long time

Ben: people will be looking at every little detail when we go to REC

Mark: the draft is the primary thing; Shane has aligned this with the latest XHTML Modularization spec
... we won't gain by getting people to look at year-old schemas
... point people to Shane's draft now

Ben: so let's hope to have schemas updated by March 19

Mark: I'll have the schemas done by March 12

5. Setting a Schedule

<mhausenblas> next week

Mark's mashup demo

MarkB: asked to demonstrate SideWinder
... framework to put together application "widgets"
... how do you get RDF? While you're browsing, etc...
... sidebar in IE and, while you're browsing, looks for RDFa in main window
... converts it, stores it, and different running sidewinder applications can run queries
... to pull data out. Example: google map that periodically maps events browsed.
... browsing process adds triples as you go, don't pay any attention.
... separate process renders items found.
... next stage is to combine that with previous data.
... parser also does microformat processing.
... main thing we're trying to do is to build stuff into the browser.
... no demo just yet, but working on it soon.

ADJOURNED