Derived from RRSAgent minutes
See also: IRC log
- wilkie, evanpro, aaronpk, bret, +1.314.777.aaaa, rhiaro, tantek, AdamB, Arnaud, Lloyd_Fassett, jasnell, Sandro, oshepherd, markus, MarkC, bblfish, tiborKat
RESOLVED: Approve minutes of 30 September 2014
<trackbot> Date: 07 October 2014
<evanpro> OK, looks like we're rolling
<evanpro> Thanks hhalpin
<evanpro> Tsyesika: we just added you as an IE so you're welcome to join the call.
<evanpro> I've got T-7 minutes, is that correct?
<hhalpin> Hey guys, I'm at a conference right now and its running late
<hhalpin> so I might be late to call. Evanpro, you are chairing, right?
<evanpro> hhalpin: correct
anyone on the sip line yet?
<hhalpin> My feeling is the best thing for this call would be to get commits to review from AS 2.0 from everyone
<hhalpin> and really actually do thorough reviews by next week - we still haven't had an IndieWeb review, for example.
<elf-pavlik> today I didn't manage to get VoIP working, so only IRC for me :(
<evanpro> My tab management issues around these calls is pretty severe
sorry about that, was just checking
<bret> hey tantek
<Loqi> tantek: bret left you a message on 10/1 at 3:03pm: I think it would be useful to have the JSON parsed out on each spec page, so I'll go start making modifications
<rhiaro> Zakim ??P7 is me
<tommorris> apologies for absence: work got busy.
<bret> PS, for anyone using the telephone.app, the mute function does not work for really loud noises... be sure to mute with Zakim if you really don't want noise to come through
<wilkie> hello all
<jasnell> attempting to dial in...
<evanpro> That's fast
<Shane> Hi all, I'm afraid I am in public and forgot my headphones so won't join the call but I will stay in IRC :)
<Arnaud> who's ??P2 ?
<Arnaud> simple commands "topic: xxx" for agenda items, "xxx: blah blah" for when someone talks
<evanpro> scribe: cwebber
<wilkie> cwebber: there are some links to the commands you might find useful: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Scribes
<wilkie> in particular http://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/manual.html
Approval of Minutes from 30 September 2014
evan says, let's get started, first order of business is to approve minutes from 30th of september
evan asks, resolving resolutions, are those handled to your satisfaction Arnaud ?
Arnaud: yes, but link is not correct, we should approve wiki page linked above (https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-09-30-minutes)
which is the cleaned up version
evanpro says that looks good, we are using that version... do we have any opposition to approving the wiki page as minutes from previous meeting?
<sandro> cwebber, best format is like this: evan: whatever evan says
evanpro: RESOLVED: with unanimous silence, we've approved it
<sandro> (or evanpro or whatever)
<oshepherd> Wrong Cambridge, damnit! :p
tantek: this is not an official w3c event, but members of the working group may be interested in an event at Cambridge, sandro and tantek are both co-organizers of this
if you are interested in coming and working on your own personal website or etc come and join
cambridge MA, not Cambridge UK
<Shane> tantek: I will probably join remotely if I have time :)
cwebber: thx oshepherd, *, for helping ;)
evanpro: It's a good idea for us to stay in touch and keep these kinds of events on the agenda
<scribe> new agenda item: two main areas of discussion today. First is to have discussion based on our review of activitystreams 2.0 based on the last week. James has asked for feedback via github or the mailing list
we have open questions that have come up in discussion here
the second item to address is the social api issues
would like to discuss the social api ahead of TPAC, would like to ramp that up as we move forward with social context
also, want to discuss relationship with indieweb efforts
if we're going to lose tantek maybe we should move that particular item up to the front, is that okay tantek?
tantek: yep, can discuss for a few minutes
evanpro: great, if we talk the tough discussion early on, hopefully can keep it short, not take up too much of your time
Indieweb and JSON
<evanpro> elf-pavlik: we're discussing Indieweb and JSON
I think the person putting this online was elf-pavlik is participating only on irc
<evanpro> Can you characterize the issue quickly here in IRC?
<evanpro> elf-pavlik_: are you on?
evanpro: (repeating question) group charter of json serialization as a requirement
<elf-pavlik_> now yes, let me see onlin log
for the social data syntax
we have some ?? from indie social web community which may not support json
we also may need to discuss jsonl-ld, while most members seem to support, some indiewebcamp people may not support
clarification, we have *submissions* from indie sodcial web community
elf-pavlik brought this up, not sure we have actionable outcome from thi
cwebber: who's speaking?
<aaronpk> cwebber: that's tantek
tantek: what are we trying to explore?
cwebber: thanks, I'm still short on catching the voices
tantek: try to give the summary statement... in the indieweb community there's been really strong focus on doing absolute minimum you have to get things to work
there are so many implementers who are in their spare time doing here and there in their websites
following that path means minimum followed format
you just put up a web page with html, and from there
what's the minimum you can add to that to interoperate beyond that?
for blogposts, posts, etc
<jasnell> losing you tantek
cwebber: sounds like a plane is taking off
tantek: from there, what's the minimum to send back and forth between sites, and so pingback with even less work (without xml-rpc)
indieweb has gotten most of this working without any json on the wire
why do any more work if I don't have to?
very motivate to do the least they have to
it's not their job, they aren't some big enterprise
that said, the formats they're using have a canonical microformats reprsentation
so they can send through a canonical microformats representation
that's strictly a plumbing detail. They can also process with rdf if they want to
it's not opposition per say, they just haven't needed it
<jasnell> It's important to note that saying "The WG must at least produce a JSON-based serialization" does not equal "Everyone has to use the JSON-based serialization". Case in point: the AS2 Vocabulary can be easily represented using HTML5+(Microdata|RDFa|Microformat)
<elf-pavlik_> i have some concern about using application/x-www-form-urlencoded with complex nested JSON objects like AS2.0
evanpro: I have a bit of a disadvantage having person who brought this up not on call, only on irc
<evanpro> elf-pavlik_: will you be able to participate by voice next week?
<evanpro> Can we defer this issue?
<elf-pavlik_> evanpro, yes i will make sure
evanpro: I'm not sure this issue is rooted in any of the work we're doing right now
I'd prefer to deal with that when that comes arong
<Shane> oshepherd: Fair point
tantek: I agree
evanpro: so I'd prefer to do it when we have it grounded
<elf-pavlik_> +1 oshepherd
Activity Streams 2.0
let's move on to activitystreams 2.0 if no more discussion on this
activitystreams 2.0 is moving forward
james has been working on a new draft based on a structure of vocabulary and underlying syntax
as part of our work to evaluate that draft this week and next to make some decisions for that
<jasnell> first off... apologize for any background noise here if/when I speak
the point of having AS2.0 on the agenda is to have a chance to voice any questions and comments on the working draft
to see if there's anything we need to do to inform that discussion
if people can add folks to the queue if anything comes up
- evanpro mutes out for a sec*
jasnell: one of the main questions is whether we go forward and publish the current working draft?
as previous calls, the current draft is not expected to be perfect
it's just a statement of where we're going, what we're working on
two qs: is it ready to go? is it ready to go out?
second, are there any additional issues to resolve?
those are both separate questions, any feedback should be expressed in those terms
I will point out that there are some issues added to the github repo
<elf-pavlik_> +q can we add some issues around as:Link and as:Verb to draft inline?
in my views we have some technical questions added there, but no blockers
evanpro: great... oshepherd ?
oshepherd: at what point did we lose object type in favor of ?? type?
when did we switch from object type to json-ld's built-in (action??) type?
<wilkie> I'm less pedantic about key names and such as some of you :) but and I've reviewed it and it looks quite sound at the moment. my only concern/confusion was clarified earlier today. I might start implementing it. hmm.
jasnell: it's still there, basing on json-ld spect
previous versions not directly compatible with @type
so in order to achieve closer compatibility, aliased object type to alias of @type
one side effect is it's more backwards compatible with 1.0
but does use the value type concept I had previously
one reference with one note sent to mailing list, I covered that previously
<bblfish> the mailing list? Which one?
evanpro: no problem, I have a question james
... elf-pavlik_ brought it up and put it on the agenda, we do seem to be strattling two compatibility issues, AS 1.0 and json-ld
can we do both, where do we err?
<elf-pavlik_> jasnell, can we add some 'bigger' issues inline to the draft? like around as:Link and as:Verb? also suggested in http://www.w3.org/2014/Process-20140801/#working-draft
jasnell: we can achieve 1.0 compatibility in that any 1.0 doc should be a valid 2.0 doc, but reverse is not true
we can decide that json-ld is the basis, and err on side of json-ld
if we have to break 1.0 compat to work better, json-ld it absolutely is
<elf-pavlik_> cool! :)
evanpro: if I'm not incorrect, there is recommendation to defer by media type
jasnell: that's correct, convention is that you walk 1.0 rules to apply... there's some questions about whether it's JSON LD plus (??)
cwebber: sorry, I lost a lot of that one
<oshepherd> Should probably add an editorial note discouraging serving as application/json
maybe a repeat if we want it better on record?
apologies, that last one I really garbled
jasnell: I do know it takes a couple of weeks to get the proposal draft going, so we need a decision quickly in time for TPAC
evanpro: yeah, last week we decided we would review for next 2 weeks on no/no-go decision on 14th
<jasnell> sorry chris: what I said was that the differentiation would occur on media type
we seem to be strongly leanign towards go, but we should make that decision by the 14th
<jasnell> application/stream+json for AS 1.0 rules
<jasnell> application/activity+json for AS 2.0 rules
evanpro: action item: everyone should review, be ready to make a thumbs up / thumbs down decision on putting forward a first public working draft
cwebber: who's speaking?
<evanpro> cwebber: it's Arnaud
<jasnell> Arnaud is speaking
Arnaud: yes, if you have any concerns, we should reviw current draft... if not, you need to bring up any issues that should be showstopper for you
which doesn't mean it's a perfect draft, but
evanpro: I'm sorry about that... people should be ready for overall structure/strategy of AS 2.0, if not every property name / structure
Arnaud: that's right
unless there's anything more to discuss on AS 2.0, let's move on to the social API
our schedule, which we continue to slip behind on
I'd like to add action item for myself to update schedule
we are in a period where we should be starting to formulate our social api strategy
what we're going to do as our client->server api
we have at least one submission for open social activitystreams api
a RESTful CRUD api
we need to look at other APIs so we know what to look for
evaluating as we go in
tantek: I have to sign off for now, but there's a wiki page with other API candidates from charter / indieweb community
linked from social wg activity
talk soon, bye
evanpro: great, thx a lot tantek
as for social api candidate someone posted, we talked a little bit about opensocial / activitystreams api
I think there are high level qs: how broad of an api, how much do we want to spec out, do we want to keep it lean/small?
there are some social API patterns listed, not sure they match, some of them are inappropriate / proprietary
none of facebook/twitter/google have made submissions
but may be good patterns to understand: what is a social api?
<hhalpin> I suggest we try to loop back in OpenSocial, as they seemed to have some sort of plan but haven't been attending phone calls.
as an outcome of this meeting, maybe put on our schedule for tpac: an action to come out with our social API strategy from our meeting
bblfish: I'm looking at this social api, what I don't see is LDP up, that's very generic
<jasnell> We need a definition: What does a "Social API" do?
is that at the wrong level, or at the right level?
evanpro: you could add it, give a link for those of us who don't know it, that would be helpful
<wilkie> I think extensibility is a priority. argh. wish I could afford to get to this TPAC meeting.
evanpro: jasnell would you mind bringing that to voice?
jasnell: yes, post it on the ml?
evanpro: no, on irc, what does a social api do
jasnell: yes, as for strategy, what does a social api *do*? we can make all sorts of examples, but how do we evaluate what we're trying to do
I don't know what we're trying to achieve, how do we know what we try to do?
evanpro: yes, we're trying to make a list of patterns that meet the same use cases as these apis
<tiborKat> zakim : +tiborKat
google, twitter, open social api... may make some sense to go finer than that
to say these use cases we're trying to address
<bret> Zakim: who is making noise?
I also tried to throw on a wiki page but
there are also some strategy issues: we have lean api from opensocial, but may be more we want to address
I want to add that we want to be ready by TPAC time to talk about strategy for APIs
would like to take a little poll to see if that's reasonable
<tiborKat> yes I'm on IPCall
that's for end of october to say strategy of: simple the opensocial activitystreams api, or opensocial activitystreams api + endpoint, will we be ready for that?
give me +1, -1, 0 on IRC
evanpro: I'll take that as net 1 but pretty weak net 1
<jasnell> I think we need to at least schedule time to brainstorm/discuss API case proposals at TPAC
<wilkie> strawpool to figure out who all the optimists are :)
<jasnell> then see what people think of those
this is something we should discuss pretty extensively at tpac
<AdamB> +1 on discussing +0 on being ready for a strategy
<Arnaud> +1 to discussing this at TPAC
<Loqi> wilkie has 1 karma
I like that structure jasnell, to discuss proposals at tpac
come up with strategies by end of tpac
<Shane> +1 to discuss at TPAC, though I won't be there
okay! I'd like to ask group to review wiki pages that have come up, add to them, discuss on list if you have questions
<jasnell> hopefully we'll have an initial set of use cases proposed from the Social IG by then also
<elf-pavlik_> +1 to review proposed APIs
once we get to our social data impact, we'll need to be moving fairly quickly with our social apis
I believe that's the end of our scheduled agenda
anything else to discuss today?
add yourself to queue if anything to bring up
if not, we're ready to abjourn
Arnaud: quickly, yet another reminder, TPAC registration deadline is tomorrow before prices go up
evanpro: okay great, thanks everyone for coming
see you all next week
<elf-pavlik_> thanks evanpro & cwebber !
<evanpro> cwebber: OK, hold on one last part
<evanpro> To generate the minutes there's another invocation you have to do
<oshepherd> Also, I suggest using PanDoc to do a quick/rough HTML-to-Wikitext conversion
and yw elf-pavlik_, hopefully I didn't do too bad ;)
<aaronpk> cwebber++ for excellent scribing
<Loqi> cwebber has 1 karma
<Loqi> cwebber has 2 karma
<Arnaud> evanpro, you just need to end the meeting
<Arnaud> trackbot will do the rest
<trackbot> Sorry, Arnaud, I don't understand 'trackbot will do the rest'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
<evanpro> trackbot, end meeting
cwebber: evanpro: what's the invocation I have to do
Summary of Action Items
[End of minutes]