16:48:40 RRSAgent has joined #social 16:48:40 logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/07-social-irc 16:48:42 RRSAgent, make logs 411 16:48:44 Zakim, this will be SOCL 16:48:44 ok, trackbot; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 12 minutes 16:48:45 Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference 16:48:45 Date: 07 October 2014 16:49:56 mattl has joined #social 16:52:25 OK, looks like we're rolling 16:52:27 Thanks hhalpin 16:52:48 T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM has now started 16:52:55 +[IPcaller] 16:53:08 Zakim, IPcaller is me 16:53:08 +wilkie; got it 16:53:23 Tsyesika: we just added you as an IE so you're welcome to join the call. 16:53:52 I've got T-7 minutes, is that correct? 16:54:05 yeah 16:54:15 AdamB has joined #social 16:54:27 yep 16:54:28 +??P2 16:54:35 o/ 16:54:41 Hey guys, I'm at a conference right now and its running late 16:54:55 so I might be late to call. Evanpro, you are chairing, right? 16:55:03 hhalpin: correct 16:55:04 anyone on the sip line yet? 16:56:05 My feeling is the best thing for this call would be to get commits to review from AS 2.0 from everyone 16:56:13 -??P2 16:56:20 +[IPcaller] 16:56:22 and really actually do thorough reviews by next week - we still haven't had an IndieWeb review, for example. 16:56:41 Zakim, [IPcaller] is me 16:56:41 +evanpro; got it 16:57:36 +??P2 16:58:07 today I didn't manage to get VoIP working, so only IRC for me :( 16:58:16 +aaronpk 16:58:28 My tab management issues around these calls is pretty severe 16:58:49 sorry about that, was just checking 16:58:59 +??P4 16:59:08 +??P6 16:59:08 Zakim, +??P4 is me 16:59:09 sorry, bret, I do not recognize a party named '+??P4' 16:59:10 Lloyd_Fassett has joined #social 16:59:14 Zakim, ??P4 is me 16:59:14 +bret; got it 16:59:20 Zakim, mute me 16:59:20 bret should now be muted 16:59:29 Zakim, ??P4 is bret 16:59:29 I already had ??P4 as bret, tantek 16:59:35 Zakim, code? 16:59:35 the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), tantek 16:59:37 hey tantek 16:59:37 tantek: bret left you a message on 10/1 at 3:03pm: I think it would be useful to have the JSON parsed out on each spec page, so I'll go start making modifications 16:59:50 +??P7 17:00:01 zakim, who is here? 17:00:01 On the phone I see wilkie, evanpro, ??P2, aaronpk, bret (muted), ??P6, ??P7 17:00:04 On IRC I see Lloyd_Fassett, AdamB, mattl, RRSAgent, caseorganic, bret, tommorris, elf-pavlik, hhalpin, tantek, evanpro, cmhobbs, jasnell, bblfish, wilkie, cwebber, Morbus, Arnaud, 17:00:04 ... Loqi, rhiaro, aaronpk, Zakim, oshepherd, kylewm, Tsyesika, trackbot, botie, sandro, wseltzer 17:00:10 Zakim ??P7 is me 17:00:19 evanpro has changed the topic to: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-10-07 17:00:19 Zakim, who is making noise? 17:00:21 + +1.314.777.aaaa 17:00:30 tantek, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: wilkie (37%), evanpro (2%), ??P6 (97%), ??P7 (44%), ??P9 (2%) 17:00:31 Zakim, +??P7 is me 17:00:32 sorry, rhiaro, I do not recognize a party named '+??P7' 17:00:37 Zakim, ??P7 is me 17:00:37 +rhiaro; got it 17:00:40 zakim, ??p6 is me 17:00:40 +tantek; got it 17:00:40 Zakim, mute me 17:00:42 rhiaro should now be muted 17:00:47 apologies for absence: work got busy. 17:00:51 PS, for anyone using the telephone.app, the mute function does not work for really loud noises... be sure to mute with Zakim if you really don't want noise to come through 17:00:51 zakim, aaaa is me 17:00:51 +AdamB; got it 17:00:56 hello all 17:00:59 +Arnaud 17:01:06 attempting to dial in... 17:01:10 RRSAgent, make logs public 17:01:21 Zakim, who's on the call? 17:01:21 On the phone I see wilkie, evanpro, ??P2, aaronpk, bret (muted), tantek, rhiaro (muted), AdamB, Arnaud 17:01:25 +Lloyd_Fassett 17:01:25 +jasnell 17:01:30 Shane has joined #social 17:01:33 That's fast 17:02:03 Hi all, I'm afraid I am in public and forgot my headphones so won't join the call but I will stay in IRC :) 17:02:09 who's ??P2 ? 17:02:36 +Sandro 17:03:02 markus has joined #social 17:03:07 simple commands "topic: xxx" for agenda items, "xxx: blah blah" for when someone talks 17:03:35 scribe: cwebber 17:03:43 +??P17 17:03:43 chair: evanpro 17:03:58 cwebber: there are some links to the commands you might find useful: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Scribes 17:03:59 agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-10-07 17:04:20 in particular http://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/manual.html 17:04:27 evan says, let's get started, first order of business is to approve minutes from 30th of september 17:04:49 MarkCrawford has joined #social 17:04:51 evan asks, resolving resolutions, are those handled to your satisfaction Arnaud ? 17:05:04 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-09-30-minutes 17:05:15 Arnaud: yes, but link is not correct, we should approve wiki page linked above (https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-09-30-minutes) 17:05:15 +??P19 17:05:20 zakim, ??P19 is me 17:05:20 +markus; got it 17:05:21 which is the cleaned up version 17:05:29 +MarkC 17:05:55 evanpro says that looks good, we are using that version... do we have any opposition to approving the wiki page as minutes from previous meeting? 17:05:55 cwebber, best format is like this: evan: whatever evan says 17:06:10 evanpro: with unanimous silence, we've approved it 17:06:14 (or evanpro or whatever) 17:06:15 (thx sandro) 17:06:34 yes 17:06:36 http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Cambridge 17:06:37 yes 17:06:49 Wrong Cambridge, damnit! :p 17:07:02 :) 17:07:07 tantek: this is not an official w3c event, but members of the working group may be interested in an event at Cambridge, sandro and tantek are both co-organizers of this 17:07:19 aww 17:07:23 if you are interested in coming and working on your own personal website or etc come and join 17:07:47 cambridge MA, not Cambridge UK 17:08:01 tantek: I will probably join remotely if I have time :) 17:08:03 cwebber: thx oshepherd, *, for helping ;) 17:08:20 evanpro: It's a good idea for us to stay in touch and keep these kinds of events on the agenda 17:08:51 new agenda item: two main areas of discussion today. First is to have discussion based on our review of activitystreams 2.0 based on the last week. James has asked for feedback via github or the mailing list 17:08:59 we have open questions that have come up in discussion here 17:09:04 the second item to address is the social api issues 17:09:29 would like to discuss the social api ahead of TPAC, would like to ramp that up as we move forward with social context 17:09:41 also, want to discuss relationship with indieweb efforts 17:09:59 if we're going to lose tantek maybe we should move that particular item up to the front, is that okay tantek? 17:10:05 tantek: yep, can discuss for a few minutes 17:10:24 evanpro: great, if we talk the tough discussion early on, hopefully can keep it short, not take up too much of your time 17:10:39 elf-pavlik: we're discussing Indieweb and JSON 17:10:49 I think the person putting this online was elf-pavlik is participating only on irc 17:10:50 Can you characterize the issue quickly here in IRC? 17:11:12 elf-pavlik_ has joined #social 17:11:25 elf-pavlik_: are you on? 17:11:45 evanpro: (repeating question) group charter of json serialization as a requirement 17:11:49 now yes, let me see onlin log 17:11:52 for the social data syntax 17:12:07 we have some ?? from indie social web community which may not support json 17:12:26 we also may need to discuss jsonl-ld, while most members seem to support, some indiewebcamp people may not support 17:12:40 clarification, we have *submissions* from indie sodcial web community 17:13:02 elf-pavlik brought this up, not sure we have actionable outcome from thi 17:13:03 s 17:13:15 cwebber: who's speaking? 17:13:20 cwebber: that's tantek 17:13:24 tantek: what are we trying to explore? 17:13:33 cwebber: thanks, I'm still short on catching the voices 17:13:55 tantek: try to give the summary statement... in the indieweb community there's been really strong focus on doing absolute minimum you have to get things to work 17:14:06 there are so many implementers who are in their spare time doing here and there in their websites 17:14:12 -bret 17:14:20 following that path means minimum followed format 17:14:26 you just put up a web page with html, and from there 17:14:36 what's the minimum you can add to that to interoperate beyond that? 17:14:42 for blogposts, posts, etc 17:14:46 losing you tantek 17:14:48 cwebber: sounds like a plane is taking off 17:15:09 +??P4 17:15:23 -rhiaro 17:15:25 tantek: from there, what's the minimum to send back and forth between sites, and so pingback with even less work (without xml-rpc) 17:15:27 Zakim, ??P4 is me 17:15:27 +bret; got it 17:15:35 indieweb has gotten most of this working without any json on the wire 17:15:40 why do any more work if I don't have to? 17:15:45 very motivate to do the least they have to 17:16:01 it's not their job, they aren't some big enterprise 17:16:02 +[IPcaller] 17:16:13 that said, the formats they're using have a canonical microformats reprsentation 17:16:17 zakim, [IPcaller] is me 17:16:17 +bblfish; got it 17:16:23 so they can send through a canonical microformats representation 17:16:38 that's strictly a plumbing detail. They can also process with rdf if they want to 17:16:53 it's not opposition per say, they just haven't needed it 17:16:55 It's important to note that saying "The WG must at least produce a JSON-based serialization" does not equal "Everyone has to use the JSON-based serialization". Case in point: the AS2 Vocabulary can be easily represented using HTML5+(Microdata|RDFa|Microformat) 17:16:57 i have some concern about using application/x-www-form-urlencoded with complex nested JSON objects like AS2.0 17:17:33 +??P16 17:17:36 evanpro: I have a bit of a disadvantage having person who brought this up not on call, only on irc 17:17:39 Zakim, ??P16 is me 17:17:39 +rhiaro; got it 17:17:45 Zakim, mute me 17:17:45 rhiaro should now be muted 17:17:46 elf-pavlik_: will you be able to participate by voice next week? 17:17:55 Can we defer this issue? 17:18:00 evanpro, yes i will make sure 17:18:06 I strongly agree, there are many (probably the majority) examples of social integrations between sites that use no javascript at all. Send using a form action, render on page using the serverside code, no JS or JSON required 17:18:09 evanpro: I'm not sure this issue is rooted in any of the work we're doing right now 17:18:22 Shane: Nobody mentioned JavaScript 17:18:26 I'd prefer to deal with that when that comes arong 17:18:27 along 17:18:32 oshepherd: Fair point 17:18:35 tantek: I agree 17:18:43 evanpro: so I'd prefer to do it when we have it grounded 17:18:44 +1 oshepherd 17:18:51 let's move on to activitystreams 2.0 if no more discussion on this 17:18:57 activitystreams 2.0 is moving forward 17:19:12 james has been working on a new draft based on a structure of vocabulary and underlying syntax 17:19:26 as part of our work to evaluate that draft this week and next to make some decisions for that 17:19:31 first off... apologize for any background noise here if/when I speak 17:19:44 the point of having AS2.0 on the agenda is to have a chance to voice any questions and comments on the working draft 17:19:55 to see if there's anything we need to do to inform that discussion 17:20:03 if people can add folks to the queue if anything comes up 17:20:08 https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues 17:20:18 *evanpro mutes out for a sec* 17:20:21 q+ 17:20:26 ack 17:20:30 ack jasnell 17:20:46 jasnell: one of the main questions is whether we go forward and publish the current working draft? 17:20:57 as previous calls, the current draft is not expected to be perfect 17:21:06 it's just a statement of where we're going, what we're working on 17:21:17 two qs: is it ready to go? is it ready to go out? 17:21:26 second, are there any additional issues to resolve? 17:21:38 those are both separate questions, any feedback should be expressed in those terms 17:22:03 q+ 17:22:10 I will point out that there are some issues added to the github repo 17:22:11 +q can we add some issues around as:Link and as:Verb to draft inline? 17:22:17 Zakim, mute me 17:22:17 bret should now be muted 17:22:20 in my views we have some technical questions added there, but no blockers 17:22:27 ack oshepherd 17:22:35 evanpro: great... oshepherd ? 17:22:42 q+ can we add some issues around as:Link and as:Verb to draft inline? 17:22:46 oshepherd: at what point did we lose object type in favor of ?? type? 17:23:03 when did we switch from object type to json-ld's built-in (action??) type? 17:23:12 @type 17:23:15 @type 17:23:15 I'm less pedantic about key names and such as some of you :) but and I've reviewed it and it looks quite sound at the moment. my only concern/confusion was clarified earlier today. I might start implementing it. hmm. 17:23:28 jasnell: it's still there, basing on json-ld spect 17:23:39 previous versions not directly compatible with @type 17:23:58 so in order to achieve closer compatibility, aliased object type to alias of @type 17:24:05 one side effect is it's more backwards compatible with 1.0 17:24:11 but does use the value type concept I had previously 17:24:15 Understood 17:24:15 Zakim, who's making noise? 17:24:26 evanpro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: jasnell (76%) 17:24:32 one reference with one note sent to mailing list, I covered that previously 17:24:36 the mailing list? Which one? 17:24:43 evanpro: no problem, I have a question james 17:25:08 evanpro: elf-pavlik_ brought it up and put it on the agenda, we do seem to be strattling two compatibility issues, AS 1.0 and json-ld 17:25:11 can we do both, where do we err? 17:25:34 jasnell, can we add some 'bigger' issues inline to the draft? like around as:Link and as:Verb? also suggested in http://www.w3.org/2014/Process-20140801/#working-draft 17:25:36 jasnell: we can achieve 1.0 compatibility in that any 1.0 doc should be a valid 2.0 doc, but reverse is not true 17:25:48 we can decide that json-ld is the basis, and err on side of json-ld 17:26:01 if we have to break 1.0 compat to work better, json-ld it absolutely is 17:26:19 cool! :) 17:26:20 evanpro: if I'm not incorrect, there is recommendation to defer by media type 17:26:46 jasnell: that's correct, convention is that you walk 1.0 rules to apply... there's some questions about whether it's JSON LD plus (??) 17:26:52 cwebber: sorry, I lost a lot of that one 17:27:09 Should probably add an editorial note discouraging serving as application/json 17:27:10 maybe a repeat if we want it better on record? 17:27:19 apologies, that last one I really garbled 17:27:47 jasnell: I do know it takes a couple of weeks to get the proposal draft going, so we need a decision quickly in time for TPAC 17:28:04 evanpro: yeah, last week we decided we would review for next 2 weeks on no/no-go decision on 14th 17:28:13 sorry chris: what I said was that the differentiation would occur on media type 17:28:18 we seem to be strongly leanign towards go, but we should make that decision by the 14th 17:28:21 application/stream+json for AS 1.0 rules 17:28:26 cwebber: thx 17:28:27 application/activity+json for AS 2.0 rules 17:28:30 q+ 17:28:42 ack Arnaud 17:28:47 evanpro: action item: everyone should review, be ready to make a thumbs up / thumbs down decision on putting forward a first public working draft 17:28:55 cwebber: who's speaking? 17:28:58 oh 17:29:04 cwebber: it's Arnaud 17:29:04 Arnaud is speaking 17:29:21 Arnaud: yes, if you have any concerns, we should reviw current draft... if not, you need to bring up any issues that should be showstopper for you 17:29:29 which doesn't mean it's a perfect draft, but 17:29:53 evanpro: I'm sorry about that... people should be ready for overall structure/strategy of AS 2.0, if not every property name / structure 17:29:56 Arnaud: that's rigbht 17:29:58 right 17:30:01 evanpro: great 17:30:12 unless there's anything more to discuss on AS 2.0, let's move on to the social API 17:30:22 our schedule, which we continue to slip behind on 17:30:31 I'd like to add action item for myself to update schedule 17:30:42 we are in a period where we should be starting to formulate our social api strategy 17:30:51 what we're going to do as our client->server api 17:31:00 we have at least one submission for open social activitystreams api 17:31:12 a RESTful CRUD api 17:31:22 we need to look at other APIs so we know what to look for 17:31:25 evaluating as we go in 17:31:46 tantek: I have to sign off for now, but there's a wiki page with other API candidates from charter / indieweb community 17:31:53 linked from social wg activity 17:31:53 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API_candidates 17:31:55 talk soon, bye 17:32:01 -tantek 17:32:03 tiborKat has joined #social 17:32:04 evanpro: great, thx a lot tantek 17:32:25 as for social api candidate someone posted, we talked a little bit about opensocial / activitystreams api 17:32:51 I think there are high level qs: how broad of an api, how much do we want to spec out, do we want to keep it lean/small? 17:33:14 Zakim, who's on the phone? 17:33:14 On the phone I see wilkie, evanpro, ??P2, aaronpk, AdamB, Arnaud, Lloyd_Fassett, jasnell, Sandro, oshepherd, markus, MarkC, bret (muted), bblfish, rhiaro (muted) 17:33:15 there are some social API patterns listed, not sure they match, some of them are inappropriate / proprietary 17:33:24 none of facebook/twitter/google have made submissions 17:33:32 but may be good patterns to understand: what is a social api? 17:33:48 -oshepherd 17:33:52 I suggest we try to loop back in OpenSocial, as they seemed to have some sort of plan but haven't been attending phone calls. 17:33:55 q+ 17:33:58 as an outcome of this meeting, maybe put on our schedule for tpac: an action to come out with our social API strategy from our meeting 17:34:02 ack bblfish 17:34:04 +??P6 17:34:17 bblfish: I'm looking at this social api, what I don't see is LDP up, that's very generic 17:34:21 We need a definition: What does a "Social API" do? 17:34:29 is that at the wrong level, or at the right level? 17:34:40 evanpro: you could add it, give a link for those of us who don't know it, that would be helpful 17:34:43 bblfish: ok 17:34:48 I think extensibility is a priority. argh. wish I could afford to get to this TPAC meeting. 17:34:58 evanpro: jasnell would you mind bringing that to voice? 17:35:07 jasnell: yes, post it on the ml? 17:35:15 evanpro: no, on irc, what does a social api do 17:35:39 jasnell: yes, as for strategy, what does a social api *do*? we can make all sorts of examples, but how do we evaluate what we're trying to do 17:35:59 I don't know what we're trying to achieve, how do we know what we try to do? 17:36:12 evanpro: yes, we're trying to make a list of patterns that meet the same use cases as these apis 17:36:12 +[IPcaller] 17:36:28 zakim : +tiborKat 17:36:28 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/API_requirements 17:36:29 google, twitter, open social api... may make some sense to go finer than that 17:36:36 to say these use cases we're trying to address 17:36:36 Zakim: who is making noise? 17:36:44 I also tried to throw on a wiki page but 17:37:01 zakim, [IPcaller] is tiborKat 17:37:01 +tiborKat; got it 17:37:09 there are also some strategy issues: we have lean api from opensocial, but may be more we want to address 17:37:15 zakim, who's on the phone? 17:37:15 On the phone I see wilkie, evanpro, ??P2, aaronpk, AdamB, Arnaud, Lloyd_Fassett, jasnell, Sandro, markus, MarkC, bret (muted), bblfish, rhiaro (muted), ??P6, tiborKat 17:37:22 I want to add that we want to be ready by TPAC time to talk about strategy for APIs 17:37:26 +1 17:37:33 would like to take a little poll to see if that's reasonable 17:37:40 Zakim, ??P6 is oshepherd 17:37:40 +oshepherd; got it 17:37:52 yes I'm on IPCall 17:38:01 that's for end of october to say strategy of: simple the opensocial activitystreams api, or opensocial activitystreams api + endpoint, will we be ready for that? 17:38:06 +1 17:38:06 +1 17:38:09 give me +1, -1, 0 on IRC 17:38:09 +0.7 17:38:14 +1 17:38:21 0 17:38:24 +0 17:38:25 +0 17:38:31 +1 17:38:31 0 17:38:33 cwebber: 17:38:34 +1 17:38:36 +0 17:38:41 wait, 17:38:43 +0 17:38:44 ;) 17:38:52 evanpro: I'll take that as net 1 but pretty weak net 1 17:38:55 I think we need to at least schedule time to brainstorm/discuss API case proposals at TPAC 17:38:59 strawpool to figure out who all the optimists are :) 17:39:03 then see what people think of those 17:39:08 this is something we should discuss pretty extensively at tpac 17:39:12 wilkie++ 17:39:13 +1 on discussing +0 on being ready for a strategy 17:39:14 +1 to discussing this at TPAC 17:39:14 wilkie has 1 karma 17:39:18 I like that structure jasnell, to discuss proposals at tpac 17:39:27 come up with strategies by end of tpac 17:39:49 +1 to discuss at TPAC, though I won't be there 17:39:52 okay! I'd like to ask group to review wiki pages that have come up, add to them, discuss on list if you have questions 17:40:02 hopefully we'll have an initial set of use cases proposed from the Social IG by then also 17:40:05 +1 to review proposed APIs 17:40:07 once we get to our social data impact, we'll need to be moving fairly quickly with our social apis 17:40:15 I believe that's the end of our scheduled agenda 17:40:21 anything else to discuss today? 17:40:27 add yourself to queue if anything to bring up 17:40:30 +q 17:40:33 if not, we're ready to abjourn 17:40:35 ack Arnaud 17:40:48 Arnaud: quickly, yet another reminder, TPAC registration deadline is tomorrow before prices go up 17:41:07 -jasnell 17:41:09 evanpro: okay great, thanks everyone for coming 17:41:10 -Sandro 17:41:12 -evanpro 17:41:12 -Arnaud 17:41:13 -MarkC 17:41:13 -aaronpk 17:41:13 see you all next week 17:41:14 -oshepherd 17:41:14 -bblfish 17:41:15 -wilkie 17:41:17 -Lloyd_Fassett 17:41:18 -AdamB 17:41:21 -??P2 17:41:22 -tiborKat 17:41:22 -rhiaro 17:41:26 -bret 17:41:27 thanks evanpro & cwebber ! 17:41:31 cwebber: OK, hold on one last part 17:41:39 cwebber: 17:41:40 To generate the minutes there's another invocation you have to do 17:41:41 evanpro: ok 17:41:52 cwebber: ok 17:42:01 Also, I suggest using PanDoc to do a quick/rough HTML-to-Wikitext conversion 17:42:03 and yw elf-pavlik_, hopefully I didn't do too bad ;) 17:42:07 cwebber++ for excellent scribing 17:42:09 cwebber has 1 karma 17:42:15 cwebber++ 17:42:16 cwebber has 2 karma 17:42:25 evanpro, you just need to end the meeting 17:42:41 trackbot will do the rest 17:42:41 Sorry, Arnaud, I don't understand 'trackbot will do the rest'. Please refer to for help. 17:42:45