EPUB 3 Working Group Telco — Minutes

Date: 2020-09-11

See also the Agenda and the IRC Log


Present: Ivan Herman, Wendy Reid, Avneesh Singh, Dave Cramer, Deborah Kaplan, George Kerscher, Shinya Takami (高見真也), Matt Garrish, Toshiaki Koike, Masakazu Kitahara, Charles LaPierre, Daihei Shiohama (塩濱大平), Karen Myers, Bill Kasdorf, Garth Conboy, Juliette McShane, Brady Duga



Chair: Wendy Reid, Dave Cramer

Scribe(s): Karen Myers, Dave Cramer


1. Goals and Charter, Workmode

Dave Cramer: Let’s get started to the first ever meeting of the new EPUB 3 working group
… exactly 21 years ago, EPUB OED 1.0 was published
… it was about a deadly virus – about Ebola
… thirteen years ago, 2011, the first EPUB spec was published
… So it seems appropriate that the new chapter of EPUB begins today, 11 Sept.
… EPUB work was done by Open ebook forum
… that became IDPF that merged into W3C
… Ivan will talk about the W3C process
… which ensures work is available to everyone
… I can paste into minutes as well

George Kerscher: continue to have this in the record

Dave Cramer: we have the process that ensures work we do is available to everyone
… we do that by testing every single feature in the spec
… and making sure that at least two pass every aspect of the tests is the most important job of this WG
… EPUB has struggled with interopeability
… with different reading systems
… We hope these tests will help reading systems to be better and help people reading ebooks
… Make EPUB better; Accessibility is critical to our work

Karen Myers: [school things]

Dave Cramer: We will of course focus on Accessibility, fixed layout access; reading system conformance
… make navigation better
… what we work on depends upon you, members of the WG
… your knowledge of all aspects of ecosystem
… And backwards compatibility is crucial
… we are not going to break EPUB
… Ivan, could you talk a little about timelines and process, first public working drafts, etc.

Ivan Herman: I won’t go into all the details of each steps
… What’s important is we publish a series of drafts
… we start with the first public working draft; we will discuss when that will happen, likely end of year or start of new year
… Essentially we put the documents on the map
… and we are part of the formal W3C publications
… it’s a draft but has its own permanent URI
… and all the patent procedures start at that point
… This community in my experience is not very patent oriented
… After the first public working draft
… we are supposed to update the draft regularly
… there is a kind of expectation that every three months there should be something happening
… and some sort of record of the changes we have done
… what exactly we publish is entirely under our control
… whereas the first public working draft goes through some W3M administration
… which I handle
… At some point we get to Candidate Recommendation (CR)
… planned to be sometime in summer 2021
… that depends upon us
… That is a very essential point
… what CR means is that we consider technical content as final
… after that we are not supposed to add major technical changes
… and from that point on, we concentrate on testing
… As Dave said, testing is very important
… the specification has to be implementable
… need to be several mutually independent implementations
… we have a lot of work to do
… to find the normative statements in the document
… For every normative statement there must be a test and two implementations for the test
… Won’t get too much into CR and what is to be tested
… the CR phase is when we get implementations and have to produce test results
… and show where we are
… sometimes you need to republish CR to take care of problems
… that’s ok
… like the working draft we can do some level of change
… others a bit more complicated
… at some point we say that the tech content is fine
… and we feel the implementation report is complete
… At that point we published a proposed recommendation
… the W3C community reviews
… that is end of the process
… per our charter we have 2.5 years to do that
… As a point of comparison, some of us are active in the Audio Book WG
… plan is that that goes to CR next week
… that is essentially it; the way we produce things
… Already the workflow
… I leave details

Wendy Reid: For the work mode for this working group
… We have a very international membership
… we will have alternate times
… this is the alternate US/Europe time
… Next week our meeting will be at 8:00pm EDT, or 9:00am Japan’s JST
… we will meet every other week
… we will not repeat agendas, with the exception of these first meetings to make sure everyone knows the work mode
… with these split meeting times
… any resolution made in one meeting has to be affirmed in another meeting
… unless they are covered in issues

George Kerscher: The evening time
… that is on Thursday, not the Friday?

Wendy Reid: yes for you

George Kerscher: All people in North America would be expected to join both meetings?

Wendy Reid: not expected, we’d love to have you at both, but come to whatever meeting you are able to come to
… We will make sure we have good minutes so that people don’t miss out
… For email we have our two main mailing lists
… public mail lists will set agendas
… and internal mailing list for things internal to us
… or not to be made public
… and there will be a chairs mailing list

Dave Cramer: In general I think we should have tech discussions in public mailing list
… and member only for admin matters like Zoom meeting details
… that is more the reason for the member only list

Ivan Herman: See Home Page of the WG, with links to further information

charles: I am still confused
… in this document mailed to us

Charles LaPierre: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-epub-wg/2020Aug/0000.html

charles: Looking at times, it talks about the 18th of September at 9:00am; is that Japan?

Wendy Reid: The meetings are 9:00am in Japan on Fridays, which is Thursday evenings in North America

Ivan Herman: I have put on the home page of the group
… I have put pointers to times and dates
… I realize that this is confusing
… and other thing I had done on mailing list archive
… there are two attachments
… ICS files
… two, one for European centric and one for Japan centric series
… hopefully that sets for the right time zone for you
… One thing we have to realize
… that will come back I think in November
… Every year, twice a year, some countries change DST
… some don’t
… some do not change at the same time than the other
… there is a mess coming up
… so we may want to think about changing the Northern Hemisphere winter period, but we will come back to that

Wendy Reid: I recommend using ICS files to make life easier
… next part of work mode is that we will use Github
… the group’s github repo for management issues and repositories
… and document repo
… Why do we have two Github repositories?
… If you were in the EPUB CG, you will remember EPUB revision
… we will keep that for spec docs
… where technical issues related to changes will go into that Github repository
… we did not want to lose the valuable issues logged there from EPUB 3.2
… and not lose those
… the EPUB WG repository is for meeting minutes, F2F docs, where page on W3C site is hosted, group related documentation
… or for group administration issue
… and where we will run the project management tasks
… keep them separate from the other repository
… look at project tabs and we already have some open

Dave Cramer: We are lucky to have an organized chair

Wendy Reid: you all should have W3C accounts
… if you have not associated your Github ID with your W3C IDs
… you can do that by going to your profile and “link accounts”
… It was easy to do
… Next thing, irc
… we are already on irc
… we will use the #epub channel
… If you have not given your irc nickname to Ivan, it makes minutes easier
… try not to change your nickname too often so we don’t get confused

Wendy Reid: https://www.w3.org/Consortium/cepc/

Wendy Reid: next thing to talk about is incredibly important
Code of conduct that governs all groups in working group settings, in email, at TPAC
… this doc should be taken into consideration
… I would like everyone to read it
… I am part of the group that helped to craft it
… How to behave, core is be nice to each other
… if there are any incidents, if you feel anything happened, reach out to the chairs
… Please make sure you all read it and conduct yourselves appropriately; you are all wonderful people
… Today we asked for a scribe
… we don’t want to do that again, so we will set up a scribe rotation
… let chairs know if you are comfortable being a scribe
… and we will have a rotation, take a turn and move to bottom of list
… there are two time zones, so will be another person in place
… If you have not scribed, I put some tips on our WG page
… link is here

Wendy Reid: https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/epub-wg/WorkMode/newbie#irc

Wendy Reid: that provides tips on how to do scribing
… If you are a newbie, or always wanted to scribe
… there is info
… we love new scribes and are happy for everyone to help
… otherwise, we will reach out directly to others

Dave Cramer: We understand that some people cannot scribe for various reasons and we are ok with that
… we won’t ask what those reasons are
… we don’t want to do anything to make anyone uncomfortable

Wendy Reid: we are working to get Github bot set up to track our resolutions, especially because of the split meeting times

Dave Cramer: this bot will post minutes of an individual discussion to Github as a comment
… it was written by David Baron for CSS WG
… it is helpful to have it; addresses the issue itself so you don’t have to hunt

Ivan Herman: Also to help
… every time we have a meeting, within 24 hours
… I will post the cleaned up minutes

Ivan Herman: https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/epub-wg/Meetings/Minutes/

Ivan Herman: All the minutes are available on the WG home page
… link above
… also a script that extracts the formal resolutions of every minutes

Ivan Herman: https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/epub-wg/Meetings/Minutes/resolutions

Ivan Herman: separate page set up for that
… with list of all the resolutions we have taken over the years or months
… to help keep track of what is happening even if you are not on the calls

Wendy Reid: Last thing
… we are implementing a formal decision process
… any decision taken up in one meeting has to be confirmed in the second meeting with the other group
… so everyone has a chance to object or make other suggestions
… that is it for the work mode
… We will have our meetings, but we also want to work as asynchronously as possible
… we are scattered across the world; not wait until next meeting; feel free to log Github issues; send emails, ask questions

Ivan Herman: If you are new to github…

Wendy Reid: We do note that there are language barriers sometimes
… the primary WG language is going to be English; my Japanese is terrible
… if you cannot express issue, please express in language of your choice and we will figure it out from there
… We want everyone to contribute; everyone is incredibly valuable and we want your feedback

Dave Cramer: Add that what worked well
… is issues in Github and discussions there; since asynchronous you can include code samples
… and we tend to go over the issue in a call
… have discussions and reach consensus
… Github will be primary place for the laying out of issues and the substantive options
… any questions about the introductory material before we move on?

2. Introductions

Dave Cramer: Shall we do introductions then?
… I know most of you
… but given this is a new working group
… we should introduce ourselves and give 1-2 sentences about who we are; why we’re here
… I’m Dave Cramer, one of the co-chairs
… I was a co-chair of the EPUB 3 CG
… I have been making epubs for 20 years
… and working on EPUB standards for 8 years now; involved pretty deeply

Wendy Reid: Also one of the co-chairs
… and also one of co-chairs of the Pub WG
… working on audio books
… work for Rakuten Kobo
… not part of CG, but this is my first in-depth work on EPUB standards but have been working on EPUB a long time

Shinya Takami (高見真也): I work for Kadokawa
… EPUB based services
… I was at Rakuten Kobo in Japan, seven years ago
… EPUB 3 is widely spread in Japan
… I will help Japanese and Asian countries to communicate
… and Daihei will help to support my English, Daihei

Daihei Shiohama (塩濱大平): My role is to stay behind the scenes
… where I can I will support as much as possible
… EPUB is the primary format in Japan so it is a very big concern
… and hope of Japanese publishing industry that EPUB propels
… I am very happy to see the establishment of this WG and hope this will propel EPUB into global usage

Matt Garrish: with Daisy Consortium, editing EPUB specs since Daisy got started
… want to see EPUB continue, want this to be mainstream; we want accessible publications and have EPUB at the forefront

Dave Cramer: we hope Matt will serve as managing editor
… for large-scale production; and help other editors doing individual pieces

charles: lead at Benetech
… working on global certified initiative to certify publishers
… to adhere to 1.0 spec we created with IDPF and hope to continue that work here
… also with Pub WG; was part of Pub IG and the Access. TF
… along with Deborah along with gaps missing in accessibility
… a lot happens in accessibility
… pass to George

George Kerscher: Daisy Consortium and Benetech
… I was one of authors of original OEB spec in 1999 and involved in digital books since 1988
… long history and look forward to a long running, successful WG

Bill Kasdorf: an independent digital publishing consultant
… I would never compare myself to George
… I have been involved in this work in EPUB for over 10 years
… back in the day I had a company with employees who were involved in the original OEB
… one thing important is that I am not a coder or developer, so not nearly as technical
… one of my roles is I am the W3C Publishing Evangelist
… I took on that role because I am passionate about getting more people involved in this group
… and to help communicate that to others in the outside world

Garth Conboy: engineering manager at Google playbooks for reading client
… Like George have been doing EPUB standards since predecessor in 1999
… at IDPF, both technically and on the board there
… and with Wendy, co-chaired the Pub WG and involved in Pub BG

Toshiaki Koike: our company (Voyager Japan) publishes EPUB Tools and reading systems
… I’m sorry I cannot be a scribe
… due to lack of English ability

Deborah Kaplan: I have been involved with accessibility
… maybe 20 years
… am a programmer
… worked with digital publishing; worked in Pub IG, CG, some EPUB Check things
… as a freelancer I have done a lot of work with publishing and library platforms, working on archiving software
… focused on accessibility
… that’s it

Avneesh Singh: so many great people
… from Daisy Consortium
… Daisy has been driving accessibility in EPUB for more than a decade now
… I have been following for many years
… 6-7 years ago I started driving accessibility
… and will continue to do so

Wendy Reid: Avneesh is being modest

George Kerscher: I also want to say that I am blind
… all of the accessibility features of EPUB really benefit me personally

masakuzukitahara: Also at Voyager Japan, but I am not very good at English

Juliette McShane: I am director of accessibility at Access2online
… we are an accessibility service provider
… we are new to this space
… interested in metadata in EPUB
… and urge industry to move to browser based EPUB like PDF
… integral to making switch to EPUB as the universal standard

Brady Duga: I no longer have any knowledge of dates or time
… since the “apocolypse” is destroying our sense of time and dates
… I attended second meeting of EPUB in 1990s
… I have been involved consistently in digpub for 20 years or so
… interested in all parts of it
… I work on a reader; the Google Playbook reader

Ivan Herman: good morning, evening, afternoon
… I am part of the W3C team
… I am the staff contact for this group
… I have been around this community ever since W3C started to work in publishing
… I worked with Markus Gylling to set up the first Publishing workshop
… I am currently the formally the technical lead of the Publishing@W3C activity
… make it possible to make it work

Karen Myers: Karen Myers, w3c staff
… I help support the tech work with outreach and education
… and I’m also scribe ;)

Wendy Reid: I think that is all

Shinya Takami (高見真也): I forgot to introduce myself as a co-chair of this working group :-)

Wendy Reid: I think that is all for introductions

3. version number

Wendy Reid: https://github.com/w3c/epub-wg/issues/8

Wendy Reid: we have our first issue
… an important one
… Issue number 8 in EPUB WG repository
… what version should we call this revision?
… should it be 3.3?
… it’s important because it will dictate what we call every document

Dave Cramer: I think 3.3 is a natural follow up to 3.2
… we are not making breaking changes
… our goal is not to take what is in 3.2 and run through the W3C process
… we want to improve the language, fix open issues, make improvements to accessibility as we discussed
… 3.3 sounds right to me

Karen Myers: ..like to not spend three months arguing about it

Matt Garrish: dot dot numbering is hard to understand
… if it were small maybe go with a second number
… I don’t think it’s our goal not to do any revisions
… I think 3.3 makes sense; it is clear
… makes it clear with the second number

charles: I agree with that
… if were were just putting 3.2 as standard process then 3.2.1 would have made sense, but we are not doing that
… so 3.3 makes sense

Avneesh Singh: one aspect
… is somewhat possible that we adopt HTML5 serialization
… would we bump the number even more?
… which may lead to branching of EPUB
… if we go to EPUB 3.3.
… then if we go to serialization then maybe we go to 3.5

Dave Cramer: that is an excellent point

bill: I agree with 3.3 for all the reasons everyone said?
… anyone want to address what’s going on in ISO?

Avneesh Singh: two deliverables
… 3.0.1 from Korean gov’t
… progressing
… 3.0.1 will be ISO standard
… EPUB accessibility was approved
… in month of June
… nine countries voted all positive
… last week we had meeting for editorial changes
… we are hoping it will be published as ISO standards
… EPUB 3.0.1

Ivan Herman: a bit to add to that
… 3.0.1 will be an ISO standards and we cannot do anything about that
… it happened before that
… there is an HTML ISO standard which has long been forgotten by the community
… Accessibility is very different
… by our charter
… it will be a first for EPUB 3 that the Accessibility document will be an integral part of the whole family of documents, on equal level with packaging for example
… we start with current document, the one undergoing ISO standardization
… I hope will have Accessibility 1+ in our documents
… we start with the document currently being voted on ISO
… and we will add and improve that
… that is what this group’s charter is

Wendy Reid: we only have a couple minutes left
… proposal
… the version of this document is EPUB 3.3

Proposed resolution: The version of this revision of EPUB will be 3.3 (Wendy Reid)

Wendy Reid: if you would +1 if you agree; 0 if neutral and -1 if you disagree

Charles LaPierre: +1

Dave Cramer: +1

Garth Conboy: +1

Bill Kasdorf: +1

Ivan Herman: +1

Matt Garrish: +1

Deborah Kaplan: +1

Shinya Takami (高見真也): +1

Juliette McShane: +1

Toshiaki Koike: +1

Avneesh Singh: +1

Masakazu Kitahara: +1

Brady Duga: 0

Karen Myers: +1

George Kerscher: +1

Garth Conboy: a standard for unanimity moving forward

Brady Duga: I did not say EPUB NEXT :)

Resolution #1: The version of this revision of EPUB will be 3.3

Dave Cramer: all those plus ones add up to 3.3

Ivan Herman: let’s get it into the minutes
… shows how resolutions are taken in a working group
… that resolution is provisional until next week
… next Friday’s call will decide
… and then we will have further discussion and that is how it works

Dave Cramer: encourage people to comment in Github
… and ask if anyone objects to this resolution next week

Ivan Herman: that is worth emphasizing for the process
… If on the next call the issue or discussion relative to previous resolution
… if there is no discussion, it will automatically become final
… there is a one-week period where any members of the WG can object

Wendy Reid: Almost top of the hour
… unless there are any other questions or business
… hope to see most of you next week, or if not, in two weeks
… Thank you for coming to the first EPUB 3.3 call!

4. Resolutions