- From: r12a <ishida@w3.org>
- Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2021 16:34:39 +0100
- To: www-international@w3.org
- Message-ID: <eb2e4e9a-1869-bc7d-cd67-630ed09769b9@w3.org>
https://www.w3.org/2021/07/22-i18n-minutes.html
– DRAFT –
Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
22 July 2021
[2]Agenda. [3]IRC log.
[2] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2021Jul/0025.html
[3] https://www.w3.org/2021/07/22-i18n-irc
Attendees
Present
addison, Bert, Richard
Regrets
Atsushi, Felix, Fuqiao
Chair
Addison Phillips
Scribe
Bert
Contents
1. [4]Agenda Review
2. [5]Action Items
3. [6]Info Share
4. [7]RADAR Review
5. [8]"Awaiting Comment Resolution" reviews
6. [9]Charmod-norm
7. [10]Awaiting comment resolution
8. [11]Summary of action items
Meeting minutes
<addison> trackbot, prepare teleconference
Agenda Review
Action Items
<addison> [12]https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/
open
[12] https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open
r12a: Not done action-1039 yet.
<addison> [13]https://github.com/w3c/string-meta/pull/56
[13] https://github.com/w3c/string-meta/pull/56
addison: Did not yet do 1050 yet, but will soon.
… could r12a review what I did direction?
r12a: Call it "paragraph direction"? And then I will add that
term and definition to the glossary.
addison: The Glossary should contain definitions and then point
to other docs.
r12a: Only if there is additional info in that other doc.
addison: The Glossary could indeed orignate terminology.
r12a: That will be the case with "paragraph direction".
r12a: I've been talking with Marcos about linking to glossary
items.
… He has a kind of references system.
… Do we put things in that database? It is a syntax with square
brackets.
… There could be a database of our own, using a variant of that
syntax.
… I will investigate.
Action: richard: investigate glossary linking solutions, e.g.
Marcos's
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1052 - Investigate glossary linking
solutions, e.g. marcos's [on Richard Ishida - due 2021-07-29].
addison: Did not do action-1051 yet.
Info Share
No info to share.
RADAR Review
<addison> [14]https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1
[14] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1
addison: We got a request to review DOM. Who wants to do it?
Fuqiao did the previous DOM review.
addison: I will assign Fuqiao for now.
"Awaiting Comment Resolution" reviews
Charmod-norm
<r12a> [15]https://w3c.github.io/bp-i18n-specdev/#string_match
[15] https://w3c.github.io/bp-i18n-specdev/#string_match
r12a: I went through the issues mentioned on the agenda and
thought about improving specdev.
… There are matching sections, but no matching dos and don'ts.
Should we add those?
addison: There is mustard in charmod. Does that not appear
here?
r12a: Not sure if the latest changes in charmod have been taken
into account in specdev.
<addison> [16]http://aphillips.github.io/
charmod-norm/#charmod_n11n_should_not
[16] http://aphillips.github.io/charmod-norm/#charmod_n11n_should_not
addison: charmod in many case more strongly worded.
specdev section 5.3 seems mostly verbatim from charmod, but
specdev section 5.2 is not.
r12a: I made some content for specdev, should we interleave
that with text from charmod-norm?
addison: charmod-norm has algorithm and choices for spec
writers. specdev's text is not wrong, but it should diretc
people to go and read charmod-norm.
… With the text in specdev, people will not necessarily arrive
at the right matching algorithm.
r12a: That is the case for all mustard in specdev. There are
always links to get more information.
… specdev is a succinct story. Our discussion has always been
how much should be in it.
addison: I want our best practices documents to have the
correct best practices and have that reflected in specdev.
… My concern here is that we have some best practices that are
kind of high level. That should be explained.
r12a: I think I'm saying the same thing, but I have a different
solution. Let's look at sections that follow. Specdev has
mustard, but here is nothing in charmod-norm.
… So we can copy it to charmod-norm and then the two can be the
same verbatim.
… In other words: I think there is content missing in
charmod-norm.
addison: That could be true.
<addison> [17]http://aphillips.github.io/
charmod-norm/#CompatibilityFoldNormalizationStep
[17] http://aphillips.github.io/charmod-norm/#CompatibilityFoldNormalizationStep
addison: There is a big red box. Maybe we meant to have mustard
there.
… Do you want to make a pull request?
r12a: specdev has had the mustard for some time, but the links
were not very useful. I found linking to the right place was
actually a bit tricky.
… There is a bit of information at the end of the link and then
links to other sections.
… It is easier for specdev to point to one location that has
everything you need.
… charmod-norm section 3.2.1 seems like a short section, but
actually there is more, and then more after that...
Action: richard: make PR for charmod-norm with proposed
additions to mustard and organizational updates to section 3.2
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1053 - Make pr for charmod-norm with
proposed additions to mustard and organizational updates to
section 3.2 [on Richard Ishida - due 2021-07-29].
r12a: We also should think about publishing, esp. charmod-norm.
addison: Let's try getting through this round of editing. If it
takes long, we can publish a snapshot.
r12a: There is still an outstanding pull request.
<r12a> [18]https://github.com/w3c/charmod-norm/pull/215/files
[18] https://github.com/w3c/charmod-norm/pull/215/files
addison: Any reason not to merge it?
r12a: We can make the patch perfect and then merge, or merge
and then improve the doc. I think the latter is better here.
addison: OK, I will merge it now.
<r12a> you have:
<r12a> <span class=codepoint>ᾌ</span> [<span
class=uname>U+1F88 GREEK CAPITAL LETTER ALPHA WITH PSILI AND
PROSGEGRAMMENI</span> + <span class=uname>U+0301 COMBINING
ACUTE ACCENT</span>]
<r12a> but it should be
<r12a> <span class="codepoint" translate="no"><span
lang="el">ᾌ</span> [<a
href="/scripts/greek/block#char1F8C"><span class="uname">U+1F8C
GREEK CAPITAL LETTER ALPHA WITH PSILI AND OXIA AND
PROSGEGRAMMENI</span></a>]</span>
r12a: Missing lang attribute, missing do-not-translate
attribute and the codepoint tag should be around the whole
thing
… Not yet fixed in the document.
… I used character references instead of characters, because
the characters got normalized by the editor program.
addison: I normally use character entities precisely for that
reason.
… Do you fix the examples or should I? Can you make a pull
request?
Awaiting comment resolution
<addison> [19]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/
member-i18n-core/2021Jul/0014.html
[19] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2021Jul/0014.html
r12a: I have another issue on charmod-norm:
… There are situations, e.g., in Kasmiri, where half the people
use precomposed letters and half use non-spacing sequences, and
I find nothing in Unicode to normalize them.
… Unicode says the precomposed character is only used in
Kashmiri. Should we say what to do in that case?
addison: I think Unicode should.
r12a: Unicode model is based on semantics, but we see people
use them graphically: use characters that look identical but
that Unicode says not to use for that language.
… E.g., a guy in India, knowledgable in principle, still often
asks me how to do something in Kashmiri. There is total
confusion.
… Some things are orthography specific. Cataloguing everything
is difficult. But somehow people have to write Kashmiri.
… Font not always supports it.
… E.g., there is an arabic diacritic that looks just right for
Kashmiri, but it is not meant for Kashmiri.
… Thus searching and normalizing in Kashmiri only half works.
addison: Asking Unicode may lead to fallout. Kind of corner
cases. If you don't write Kashmiri, you'll never notice. But if
you write Kashmiri, you encounter it all the time.
r12a: It is not just Kashmiri. Also happens in Bengali. You can
use the wrong characters but that look right.
… I think charmod-norm should at least have a note to say that
even after following the ruls in the spec, there are still
areas with problems.
addison: We can add text. This seems to be mostly targeted at
document authors, because there is no algorithm and thus
authors have to take care themselves.
… There are different keyboard implementations, also for
Vietnamese, e.g., and people don't necessarily see what they
type.
<addison> [20]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/
member-i18n-core/2021Jul/0014.html
[20] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2021Jul/0014.html
addison: There are four items here ^^ without issues and that I
think can be closed.
<addison> [21]https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1
[21] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1
addison: I used are the column "awaiting resolution" on the
radar, from bottom to top, to see which items can be closed and
moved to "completed".
r12a: The UTR#53 issues are stale. Let's close.
… For tracking-dnt, not sure. Maybe close and recycle?
bert: No WG for it at the moment, so probably recycle when
there is a WG again.
r12a: Who is closing the issues?
addison: I am.
… I'll close the other non-contrversial ones as well.
Summary of action items
1. [22]richard: investigate glossary linking solutions, e.g.
Marcos's
2. [23]richard: make PR for charmod-norm with proposed
additions to mustard and organizational updates to section
3.2
Received on Thursday, 22 July 2021 15:34:45 UTC