IRC log of i18n on 2021-07-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:56:58 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #i18n

13:56:58 [RRSAgent]

logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/07/22-i18n-irc

13:57:03 [addison]

trackbot, prepare teleconference

13:57:06 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs public

13:57:09 [trackbot]

Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference

13:57:09 [trackbot]

Date: 22 July 2021

13:57:15 [agendabot]

agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2021Jul/0025.html

13:57:15 [agendabot]

clear agenda

13:57:15 [agendabot]

agenda+ Agenda Review

13:57:15 [agendabot]

agenda+ Action Items

13:57:17 [agendabot]

agenda+ Info Share

13:57:19 [agendabot]

agenda+ RADAR Review

13:57:20 [addison]

Chair: Addison Phillips

13:57:21 [agendabot]

agenda+ DOMException localizability

13:57:24 [agendabot]

agenda+ "Awaiting Comment Resolution" reviews

13:57:26 [agendabot]

agenda+ AOB?

13:57:28 [addison]

regrets+ Felix, Atsushi

13:57:40 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/07/22-i18n-minutes.html addison

14:01:25 [addison]

present+

14:02:21 [addison]

present+ Richard, Bert

14:02:30 [Bert]

scribe+

14:04:58 [Bert]

regrets+ Fuqiao

14:05:21 [addison]

agenda?

14:05:36 [addison]

zakim, take up agendum 1

14:05:36 [Zakim]

agendum 1 -- Agenda Review -- taken up [from agendabot]

14:06:10 [addison]

zakim, take up agendum 2

14:06:10 [Zakim]

agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot]

14:06:17 [addison]

https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open

14:07:28 [Bert]

r12a: Not done action-1039 yet.

14:08:05 [addison]

https://github.com/w3c/string-meta/pull/56

14:08:19 [Bert]

addison: Did not yet do 1050 yet, but will soon.

14:09:56 [Bert]

... could r12a review what I did direction?

14:10:25 [Bert]

r12a: Call it "paragraph direction"? And then I will add that term and definition to the glossary.

14:11:20 [Bert]

addison: The Glossary should contain definitions and then point to other docs.

14:11:40 [Bert]

r12a: Only if there is additional info in that other doc.

14:12:20 [Bert]

addison: The Glossary could indeed orignate terminology.

14:12:41 [Bert]

r12a: That will be the case with "paragraph direction".

14:13:01 [Bert]

r12a: I've been talking with Marcos about linking to glossary items.

14:13:32 [Bert]

... He has a kind of references system.

14:14:13 [Bert]

... Do we put things in that database? It is a syntax with square brackets.

14:14:45 [Bert]

... There could be a database of our own, using a variant of that syntax.

14:15:04 [Bert]

... I will investigate.

14:15:06 [addison]

action: richard: investigate glossary linking solutions, e.g. Marcos's

14:15:06 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-1052 - Investigate glossary linking solutions, e.g. marcos's [on Richard Ishida - due 2021-07-29].

14:15:46 [Bert]

addison: Did not do action-1051 yet.

14:15:48 [addison]

zakim, take up agendum 3

14:15:49 [Zakim]

agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from agendabot]

14:15:58 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/07/22-i18n-minutes.html addison

14:16:25 [Bert]

No info to share.

14:16:34 [addison]

zakim, take up agendum 4

14:16:34 [Zakim]

agendum 4 -- RADAR Review -- taken up [from agendabot]

14:16:35 [addison]

https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1

14:17:17 [Bert]

addison: We got a request to review DOM. Who wants to do it?

14:18:11 [Bert]

Fuqiao did the previous DOM review.

14:18:53 [Bert]

addison: I will assign Fuqiao for now.

14:19:01 [addison]

agenda?

14:19:48 [addison]

zakim, take up agendum 6

14:19:48 [Zakim]

agendum 6 -- "Awaiting Comment Resolution" reviews -- taken up [from agendabot]

14:20:09 [addison]

Topic: Charmod-norm

14:20:19 [r12a]

https://w3c.github.io/bp-i18n-specdev/#string_match

14:21:18 [Bert]

r12a: I went through the issues mentioned on the agenda and thought about improving specdev.

14:21:48 [Bert]

... There are matching sections, but no matching dos and don'ts. Should we add those?

14:23:18 [Bert]

addison: There is mustard in charmod. Does that not appear here?

14:23:47 [Bert]

r12a: Not sure if the latest changes in charmod have been taken into account in specdev.

14:24:22 [addison]

http://aphillips.github.io/charmod-norm/#charmod_n11n_should_not

14:25:00 [Bert]

addison: charmod in many case more strongly worded.

14:26:38 [Bert]

specdev section 5.3 seems mostly verbatim from charmod, but specdev section 5.2 is not.

14:27:47 [Bert]

r12a: I made some content for specdev, should we interleave that with text from charmod-norm?

14:29:44 [Bert]

addison: charmod-norm has algorithm and choices for spec writers. specdev's text is not wrong, but it should diretc people to go and read charmod-norm.

14:31:02 [Bert]

... With the text in specdev, people will not necessarily arrive at the right matching algorithm.

14:31:29 [Bert]

r12a: That is the case for all mustard in specdev. There are always links to get more information.

14:32:58 [Bert]

... specdev is a succinct story. Our discussion has always been how much should be in it.

14:33:36 [Bert]

addison: I want our best practices documents to have the correct best practices and have that reflected in specdev.

14:34:21 [Bert]

... My concern here is that we have some best practices that are kind of high level. That should be explained.

14:35:23 [Bert]

r12a: I think I'm saying the same thing, but I have a different solution. Let's look at sections that follow. Specdev has mustard, but here is nothing in charmod-norm.

14:35:53 [Bert]

... So we can copy it to charmod-norm and then the two can be the same verbatim.

14:36:16 [Bert]

... In other words: I think there is content missing in charmod-norm.

14:36:25 [Bert]

addison: That could be true.

14:36:45 [addison]

http://aphillips.github.io/charmod-norm/#CompatibilityFoldNormalizationStep

14:37:16 [Bert]

... There is a big red box. Maybe we meant to have mustard there.

14:37:29 [Bert]

... Do you want to make a pull request?

14:38:12 [Bert]

r12a: specdev has had the mustard for some time, but the links were not very useful. I found linking to the right place was actually a bit tricky.

14:39:06 [Bert]

... There is a bit of information at the end of the link and then links to other sections.

14:40:28 [Bert]

... It is easier for specdev to point to one location that has everything you need.

14:41:42 [Bert]

... charmod-norm section 3.2.1 seems like a short section, but actually there is more, and then more after that...

14:41:59 [addison]

action: richard: make PR for charmod-norm with proposed additions to mustard and organizational updates to section 3.2

14:41:59 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-1053 - Make pr for charmod-norm with proposed additions to mustard and organizational updates to section 3.2 [on Richard Ishida - due 2021-07-29].

14:42:26 [Bert]

... We also should think about publishing, esp. charmod-norm.

14:43:46 [Bert]

addison: Let's try getting through this round of editing. If it takes long, we can publish a snapshot.

14:44:07 [Bert]

r12a: There is still an outstanding pull request.

14:44:26 [r12a]

https://github.com/w3c/charmod-norm/pull/215/files

14:45:10 [Bert]

addison: Any reason not to merge it?

14:45:49 [Bert]

r12a: We can make the patch perfect and then merge, or merge and then improve the doc. I think the latter is better here.

14:46:03 [Bert]

addison: OK, I will merge it now.

14:46:30 [r12a]

you have:

14:46:32 [r12a]

<span class=codepoint>&#x1F88;&#x0301;</span> [<span class=uname>U+1F88 GREEK CAPITAL LETTER ALPHA WITH PSILI AND PROSGEGRAMMENI</span> + <span class=uname>U+0301 COMBINING ACUTE ACCENT</span>]

14:46:38 [r12a]

but it should be

14:46:43 [r12a]

<span class="codepoint" translate="no"><span lang="el">&#x1F8C;</span> [<a href="/scripts/greek/block#char1F8C"><span class="uname">U+1F8C GREEK CAPITAL LETTER ALPHA WITH PSILI AND OXIA AND PROSGEGRAMMENI</span></a>]</span>

14:47:57 [Bert]

r12a: Missing lang attribute, missing do-not-translate attribute and the codepoint tag should be around the whole thing

14:49:18 [Bert]

... Not yet fixed in the document.

14:50:24 [Bert]

... I used character references instead of characters, because the characters got normalized by the editor program.

14:51:19 [Bert]

addison: I normally use character entities precisely for that reason.

14:51:48 [Bert]

... Do you fix the examples or should I? Can you make a pull request?

14:52:16 [addison]

Topic: Awaiting comment resolution

14:52:16 [addison]

https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2021Jul/0014.html

14:53:07 [Bert]

r12a: I have another issue on charmod-norm:

14:54:24 [Bert]

... There are situations, e.g., in Kasmiri, where half the people use precomposed letters and half use non-spacing sequences, and I find nothing in Unicode to normalize them.

14:55:39 [Bert]

... Unicode says the precomposed character is only used in Kashmiri. Should we say what to do in that case?

14:55:59 [Bert]

addison: I think Unicode should.

14:57:51 [Bert]

r12a: Unicode model is based on semantics, but we see people use them graphically: use characters that look identical but that Unicode says not to use for that language.

14:58:55 [Bert]

... E.g., a guy in India, knowledgable in principle, still often asks me how to do something in Kashmiri. There is total confusion.

14:59:53 [Bert]

... Some things are orthography specific. Cataloguing everything is difficult. But somehow people have to write Kashmiri.

15:00:13 [Bert]

... Font not always supports it.

15:00:52 [Bert]

... E.g., there is an arabic diacritic that looks just right for Kashmiri, but it is not meant for Kashmiri.

15:01:23 [Bert]

... Thus searching and normalizing in Kashmiri only half works.

15:02:44 [Bert]

addison: Asking Unicode may lead to fallout. Kind of corner cases. If you don't write Kashmiri, you'll never notice. But if you write Kashmiri, you encounter it all the time.

15:03:21 [Bert]

r12a: It is not just Kashmiri. Also happens in Bengali. You can use the wrong characters but that look right.

15:04:05 [Bert]

... I think charmod-norm should at least have a note to say that even after following the ruls in the spec, there are still areas with problems.

15:05:38 [Bert]

addison: We can add text. This seems to be mostly targeted at document authors, because there is no algorithm and thus authors have to take care themselves.

15:06:26 [Bert]

... There are different keyboard implementations, also for Vietnamese, e.g., and people don't necessarily see what they type.

15:07:24 [addison]

https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2021Jul/0014.html

15:08:09 [Bert]

addison: There are four items here ^^ without issues and that I think can be closed.

15:08:12 [addison]

https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1

15:09:24 [Bert]

... I used are the column "awaiting resolution" on the radar, from bottom to top, to see which items can be closed and moved to "completed".

15:10:00 [Bert]

r12a: The UTR#53 issues are stale. Let's close.

15:11:01 [Bert]

... For tracking-dnt, not sure. Maybe close and recycle?

15:11:34 [Bert]

bert: No WG for it at the moment, so probably recycle when there is a WG again.

15:11:48 [Bert]

r12a: Who is closing the issues?

15:11:52 [Bert]

addison: I am.

15:12:23 [Bert]

... I'll close the other non-contrversial ones as well.

15:14:14 [r12a]

rrsagent, draft minutes

15:14:14 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/07/22-i18n-minutes.html r12a

15:18:43 [Zakim]

leaving. As of this point the attendees have been addison, Richard, Bert

15:18:43 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #i18n

15:18:46 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/07/22-i18n-minutes.html addison