13:56:58 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18n
13:56:58 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/07/22-i18n-irc
13:57:03 <addison> trackbot, prepare teleconference
13:57:06 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:57:09 <trackbot> Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
13:57:09 <trackbot> Date: 22 July 2021
13:57:15 <agendabot> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2021Jul/0025.html
13:57:15 <agendabot> clear agenda
13:57:15 <agendabot> agenda+ Agenda Review
13:57:15 <agendabot> agenda+ Action Items
13:57:17 <agendabot> agenda+ Info Share
13:57:19 <agendabot> agenda+ RADAR Review
13:57:20 <addison> Chair: Addison Phillips
13:57:21 <agendabot> agenda+ DOMException localizability
13:57:24 <agendabot> agenda+ "Awaiting Comment Resolution" reviews
13:57:26 <agendabot> agenda+ AOB?
13:57:28 <addison> regrets+ Felix, Atsushi
13:57:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/07/22-i18n-minutes.html addison
14:01:25 <addison> present+
14:02:21 <addison> present+ Richard, Bert
14:02:30 <Bert> scribe+
14:04:58 <Bert> regrets+ Fuqiao
14:05:21 <addison> agenda?
14:05:36 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 1
14:05:36 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:06:10 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 2
14:06:10 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:06:17 <addison> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open
14:07:28 <Bert> r12a: Not done action-1039 yet.
14:08:05 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/string-meta/pull/56
14:08:19 <Bert> addison: Did not yet do 1050 yet, but will soon.
14:09:56 <Bert> ... could r12a review what I did direction?
14:10:25 <Bert> r12a: Call it "paragraph direction"? And then I will add that term and definition to the glossary.
14:11:20 <Bert> addison: The Glossary should contain definitions and then point to other docs.
14:11:40 <Bert> r12a: Only if there is additional info in that other doc.
14:12:20 <Bert> addison: The Glossary could indeed orignate terminology.
14:12:41 <Bert> r12a: That will be the case with "paragraph direction".
14:13:01 <Bert> r12a: I've been talking with Marcos about linking to glossary items.
14:13:32 <Bert> ... He has a kind of references system.
14:14:13 <Bert> ... Do we put things in that database? It is a syntax with square brackets.
14:14:45 <Bert> ... There could be a database of our own, using a variant of that syntax.
14:15:04 <Bert> ... I will investigate.
14:15:06 <addison> action: richard: investigate glossary linking solutions, e.g. Marcos's
14:15:06 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1052 - Investigate glossary linking solutions, e.g. marcos's [on Richard Ishida - due 2021-07-29].
14:15:46 <Bert> addison: Did not do action-1051 yet.
14:15:48 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 3
14:15:49 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:15:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/07/22-i18n-minutes.html addison
14:16:25 <Bert> No info to share.
14:16:34 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 4
14:16:34 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- RADAR Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:16:35 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1
14:17:17 <Bert> addison: We got a request to review DOM. Who wants to do it?
14:18:11 <Bert> Fuqiao did the previous DOM review.
14:18:53 <Bert> addison: I will assign Fuqiao for now.
14:19:01 <addison> agenda?
14:19:48 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 6
14:19:48 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- "Awaiting Comment Resolution" reviews -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:20:09 <addison> Topic: Charmod-norm
14:20:19 <r12a> https://w3c.github.io/bp-i18n-specdev/#string_match
14:21:18 <Bert> r12a: I went through the issues mentioned on the agenda and thought about improving specdev.
14:21:48 <Bert> ... There are matching sections, but no matching dos and don'ts. Should we add those?
14:23:18 <Bert> addison: There is mustard in charmod. Does that not appear here?
14:23:47 <Bert> r12a: Not sure if the latest changes in charmod have been taken into account in specdev.
14:24:22 <addison> http://aphillips.github.io/charmod-norm/#charmod_n11n_should_not
14:25:00 <Bert> addison: charmod in many case more strongly worded.
14:26:38 <Bert> specdev section 5.3 seems mostly verbatim from charmod, but specdev section 5.2 is not.
14:27:47 <Bert> r12a: I made some content for specdev, should we interleave that with text from charmod-norm?
14:29:44 <Bert> addison: charmod-norm has algorithm and choices for spec writers. specdev's text is not wrong, but it should diretc people to go and read charmod-norm.
14:31:02 <Bert> ... With the text in specdev, people will not necessarily arrive at the right matching algorithm.
14:31:29 <Bert> r12a: That is the case for all mustard in specdev. There are always links to get more information.
14:32:58 <Bert> ... specdev is a succinct story. Our discussion has always been how much should be in it.
14:33:36 <Bert> addison: I want our best practices documents to have the correct best practices and have that reflected in specdev.
14:34:21 <Bert> ... My concern here is that we have some best practices that are kind of high level. That should be explained.
14:35:23 <Bert> r12a: I think I'm saying the same thing, but I have a different solution. Let's look at sections that follow. Specdev has mustard, but here is nothing in charmod-norm.
14:35:53 <Bert> ... So we can copy it to charmod-norm and then the two can be the same verbatim.
14:36:16 <Bert> ... In other words: I think there is content missing in charmod-norm.
14:36:25 <Bert> addison: That could be true.
14:36:45 <addison> http://aphillips.github.io/charmod-norm/#CompatibilityFoldNormalizationStep
14:37:16 <Bert> ... There is a big red box. Maybe we meant to have mustard there.
14:37:29 <Bert> ... Do you want to make a pull request?
14:38:12 <Bert> r12a: specdev has had the mustard for some time, but the links were not very useful. I found linking to the right place was actually a bit tricky.
14:39:06 <Bert> ... There is a bit of information at the end of the link and then links to other sections.
14:40:28 <Bert> ... It is easier for specdev to point to one location that has everything you need.
14:41:42 <Bert> ... charmod-norm section 3.2.1 seems like a short section, but actually there is more, and then more after that...
14:41:59 <addison> action: richard: make PR for charmod-norm with proposed additions to mustard and organizational updates to section 3.2
14:41:59 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1053 - Make pr for charmod-norm with proposed additions to mustard and organizational updates to section 3.2 [on Richard Ishida - due 2021-07-29].
14:42:26 <Bert> ... We also should think about publishing, esp. charmod-norm.
14:43:46 <Bert> addison: Let's try getting through this round of editing. If it takes long, we can publish a snapshot.
14:44:07 <Bert> r12a: There is still an outstanding pull request.
14:44:26 <r12a> https://github.com/w3c/charmod-norm/pull/215/files
14:45:10 <Bert> addison: Any reason not to merge it?
14:45:49 <Bert> r12a: We can make the patch perfect and then merge, or merge and then improve the doc. I think the latter is better here.
14:46:03 <Bert> addison: OK, I will merge it now.
14:46:30 <r12a> you have:
14:46:32 <r12a> <span class=codepoint>&#x1F88;&#x0301;</span> [<span class=uname>U+1F88 GREEK CAPITAL LETTER ALPHA WITH PSILI AND PROSGEGRAMMENI</span> + <span class=uname>U+0301 COMBINING ACUTE ACCENT</span>]
14:46:38 <r12a> but it should be
14:46:43 <r12a> <span class="codepoint" translate="no"><span lang="el">&#x1F8C;</span> [<a href="/scripts/greek/block#char1F8C"><span class="uname">U+1F8C GREEK CAPITAL LETTER ALPHA WITH PSILI AND OXIA AND PROSGEGRAMMENI</span></a>]</span>
14:47:57 <Bert> r12a: Missing lang attribute, missing do-not-translate attribute and the codepoint tag should be around the whole thing
14:49:18 <Bert> ... Not yet fixed in the document.
14:50:24 <Bert> ... I used character references instead of characters, because the characters got normalized by the editor program.
14:51:19 <Bert> addison: I normally use character entities precisely for that reason.
14:51:48 <Bert> ... Do you fix the examples or should I? Can you make a pull request?
14:52:16 <addison> Topic: Awaiting comment resolution
14:52:16 <addison> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2021Jul/0014.html
14:53:07 <Bert> r12a: I have another issue on charmod-norm:
14:54:24 <Bert> ... There are situations, e.g., in Kasmiri, where half the people use precomposed letters and half use non-spacing sequences, and I find nothing in Unicode to normalize them.
14:55:39 <Bert> ... Unicode says the precomposed character is only used in Kashmiri. Should we say what to do in that case?
14:55:59 <Bert> addison: I think Unicode should.
14:57:51 <Bert> r12a: Unicode model is based on semantics, but we see people use them graphically: use characters that look identical but that Unicode says not to use for that language.
14:58:55 <Bert> ... E.g., a guy in India, knowledgable in principle, still often asks me how to do something in Kashmiri. There is total confusion.
14:59:53 <Bert> ... Some things are orthography specific. Cataloguing everything is difficult. But somehow people have to write Kashmiri.
15:00:13 <Bert> ... Font not always supports it.
15:00:52 <Bert> ... E.g., there is an arabic diacritic that looks just right for Kashmiri, but it is not meant for Kashmiri.
15:01:23 <Bert> ... Thus searching and normalizing in Kashmiri only half works.
15:02:44 <Bert> addison: Asking Unicode may lead to fallout. Kind of corner cases. If you don't write Kashmiri, you'll never notice. But if you write Kashmiri, you encounter it all the time.
15:03:21 <Bert> r12a: It is not just Kashmiri. Also happens in Bengali. You can use the wrong characters but that look right.
15:04:05 <Bert> ... I think charmod-norm should at least have a note to say that even after following the ruls in the spec, there are still areas with problems.
15:05:38 <Bert> addison: We can add text. This seems to be mostly targeted at document authors, because there is no algorithm and thus authors have to take care themselves.
15:06:26 <Bert> ... There are different keyboard implementations, also for Vietnamese, e.g., and people don't necessarily see what they type.
15:07:24 <addison> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2021Jul/0014.html
15:08:09 <Bert> addison: There are four items here ^^ without issues and that I think can be closed.
15:08:12 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1
15:09:24 <Bert> ... I used are the column "awaiting resolution" on the radar, from bottom to top, to see which items can be closed and moved to "completed".
15:10:00 <Bert> r12a: The UTR#53 issues are stale. Let's close.
15:11:01 <Bert> ... For tracking-dnt, not sure. Maybe close and recycle?
15:11:34 <Bert> bert: No WG for it at the moment, so probably recycle when there is a WG again.
15:11:48 <Bert> r12a:  Who is closing the issues?
15:11:52 <Bert> addison: I am.
15:12:23 <Bert> ... I'll close the other non-contrversial ones as well.
15:14:14 <r12a> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:14:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/07/22-i18n-minutes.html r12a
15:18:43 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been addison, Richard, Bert
15:18:43 <Zakim> Zakim has left #i18n
15:18:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/07/22-i18n-minutes.html addison