Minutes Paris F2F 2015-08-26 Part II: Defining Pagination, CSS Priorities from DigiPub, CSS Inline
Defining Pagination
- dauwhe asked the group how to proceed with pagination since it was a major priority of digital publishing.
- There wasn’t consensus on overflow triggering pagination and instead it was decided that the first step would be a model for how pagination works.
- There were several different mental models from members of the group, but it ultimately was decided that the first problem was to figure out and define the relationship between the viewport and the doc tree and from that definition the group could then move forward on explaining how regions and fragmentation use that relationship to become paginated view.
- Resolved: Create a new module describing connection between viewport and doc tree and explaining page boxes with name TBA. plinss, Florian, Rossen are editors.
Full Minutes || Spec Referenced
CSS Priorities from DigiPub
- The group reviewed the document from the DigiPub Interest Group (Available Here) and had several pieces of feedback:
- There was a desire expressed for the list to be more concrete proposals and less of a laundry list.
- It was recommended to ask for
font-variant instead of font-feature-settings as it’s a better property. [font-feature-settings was only intended to fill in the gaps that font-variant hadn’t filled, not as a cheap substitute for font-variant]
- Using the content property on elements received a lot of interest, but may be difficult for accessibility reasons. Also there was evidence that browsers had tried it before and had to walk back the changes due to Web compat.
- It was expressed that mathematical layout will be hard, particularly due to interaction with font shaping.
- There was interest in the problem of tracking reading location across devices, but no conclusive proposal.
Full Minutes
CSS Inline
- There was discussion on if the multiple values of
alignment-baseline are necessary.
alphabethic, central, and auto were agreed to be necessary.top, bottom, and center were considered awkward because they weren’t actually baselines- There was no decision on the others and they will need further conversation
- Google asked that figuring out glyph boundaries in
initial-letter be marked as at-risk because it will be time-consuming for them to implement.
- Issues that need to be added to the spec are:
- What happens when baseline is not in font
- Add
width and height to the property for initial-letter
- Add a complete list of things that can be applied to
initial-letter
- Which baseline keywords do we need to keep?
- Mark
initial-letter-wrap as at-risk
- Where do
before-edge and after-edge come from?
- Resolved: Add a
length value to initial-letter-wrap
- Resolved: Publish an updated WD of CSS Inline
Full Minutes || Spec Referenced
Minutes Paris F2F 2015-08-26 Part I: Round Display, Grid Layout, Animations, Scroll Snapping
Round Display
- The representatives from LG presented their work on Round Display, including several demos of test cases.
- The group thought the progress was good and the use cases compelling, though there was in expressed desire to have the spec written to apply more widely instead of focusing only on round displays.
- Some pieces of the spec may ultimately belong in other existing specs, but for now they will be worked on here until they stabilize.
- There were several issues to resolve, some editorial and some conceptual.
- Resolved: Pending notation of any open issues in the draft, publish FPWD of Round Display
- Resolved: Add Hyojin Song as an editor to round display, move Soonbo Han to former editor
Full Minutes || Spec Referenced
Grid Layout
- Resolved: Switch
row-gap/column-gap to grid-column-gap and grid-row-gap and maintain grid-gap as the shorthand name.
- It is possible that they will be named
grid-gap-rows/grid-gap-columns instead depending on the results of polling.
- Resolved: Stretch stretches auto-sized tracks only
- Resolved: Add
repeat(auto-fill) and repeat(auto-fit)
- Resolved: Publish a new Grid WD after the above edits
Full Minutes || Spec Referenced
Animations
- The group agreed that the work on exposing the Animations APIs should move from a delta spec to a real spec, but felt that the edits to Animations level 1 should be made first, especially as it would make backporting easier.
- Resolved: Add birtles as editor to Animations pending him getting added to the working group
Full Minutes || Spec Referenced
Scroll Snapping
- fantasai and TabAtkins brought their proposal to re-think how the scroll-snap property works, especially in addressing what they do with oversized elements.
- The proposal was that whenever you snap to an element and it’s larger than the viewport in some axis, in the overflowing axis you then stop snapping to that element from now on and instead the edges become the new snap points.
- This would also move the model of snap points from a point to point snap toward a box to box snap to accommodate more robust behavior.
- There were questions about the functionality of snapping to an edge in regards to it causing problems for those using arrow keys when the edge is very close to the viewport, such as 1px away.
- Several people indicated that they wanted to ensure the wording on this was loose enough that the UIs could do something smart.
- There were several questions about the value and functionality of grouping and it was expressed that this was likely a level 2 behavior.
- The renaming proposal of changing
scroll-snap-destination to target had people on both sides of the fence, but ultimately will remain named as-is.
- MaRakow, fantasai, and TabAtkins decided they would discuss further and come back to the group with a list of needed resolutions now that the broad re-thinking had been explained. Originally this was to happen after the lunch break, but the group needed more time.
Full Minutes || Snap Points Spec, Proposal
Minutes Paris F2F 2015-08-25 Part II: CSS UI 4, CSS Text 4, User Stylesheets, Snapshot 2015 and Prefix Policy, @apply rule
CSS UI 4
- Resolved: Remove the note regarding
user-select and contenteditable
- Resolved:
user-select: text stays named as-is
- Resolved: Drop all values except for
auto and none on the appearance property
- Resolved: Drop the all properties to do with caret animation
- Resolved: Clarify that we’re using the hotspot to determine which element is relevant
- Resolved: Depend on hit testing
- Resolved: Do not define hit testing
- Resolved: Add
text-overflow: fade and let Florian figure out the details
- Resolved: Publish FPWD of CSS UI 4
Full Minutes || Spec Referenced
CSS Text 4
- Resolved: Try the first option in this e-mail
- Resolved:
text-space-trim, text-space-collapse, and text-wrap are longhands of white-space and people can raise issues if that’s a problem.
- Resolved: FPWD for Text 4
Full Minutes || Spec Referenced
User Stylesheets
- There was general agreement that user stylesheets should stay in the spec.
- There was interest in reviving
@document
Full Minutes
Snapshot 2015 and Prefix Policy
- fantasai explained the approach to the snapshot as containing specs that are in CR and have well-tested implementations as a way to distinguish further the status of the various specs.
- There was general agreement that the previous resolution for which specs should be in the snapshot was correct and that Transitions, Animations and Flexbox should be in as implemented, but not yet stable.
- There was no agreement to adopt the prefixing policy section, but as people seemed to generally agree on what it needs to say, interested members will work on wording and return with an updated proposal.
Full Minutes || Spec Referenced
@apply rule
- TabAtkins brought his proposal for an
@apply rule to the group (available here).
- The overall reception was positive, but there were concerns about the feasibility of certain behaviors due to how style resolution works. TabAtkins will work on solving those problems before he brings the proposal back to the group.
Minutes Paris F2F 2015-08-25 Part I: CSS Cascade, CSS Fragmentations, CSS Animations, CSS Text, TPAC Japanese Industry Meet-up, Flexbox, Grid/Flex Percentages, Testing
CSS Cascade
- Resolved: Publish a new WD for CSS Cascade
- Pending any comments, the authors will ask for CR in four weeks.
Full Minutes || Spec Referenced
CSS Fragmentation
- Resolved: Drop
any and always from level 3 of Fragmentation
- Resolved: Drop
break-before and break-after from Multicol and reference fragmentation definitions and republish as CR
- Once the above resolution is addressed and feedback on a remaining issue is received, the authors will ask the group for CR.
Full Minutes || Spec Referenced: Fragmentation, Multicol
CSS Animations
- dbaron will review the proposal on keyframe interaction
Full Minutes || Spec Referenced
CSS Text
- Control Character Status Update: the plan is still to have the change implemented by TPAC, but status of fixes is unknown.
Full Minutes || Spec Referenced
TPAC Japanese Industry Meet-up
- Lots of members of the group were interested in attending a meet-up with individuals interested in CSS in Japan around the time of TPAC.
- The options given were have a meeting on the Sunday before TPAC (which would allow more time, but would exclude some people that already made travel plans), Monday evening after the meeting (which would give a limited amount of time, especially if it’s not catered), and Wednesday (which would keep people out of the plenary session).
- Hiroshi-san will speak to the community and get back to the group with their preference.
Full Minutes
Flexbox
- Resolved: Don’t include
flex-basis in intrinsic size calculations because that most closely matches existing behavior
- Issue #3 (Can percentages resolve given min-size: auto?) will be resolved by getting a few implementors to talk together and determine which solution they’re converging toward.
- Resolved: Just blockify the children of flex and grid containers. Don’t do anonymous box fix-up. (issue #6)
Full Minutes || Spec Referenced
Grid/Flex Percentages
- The group tried to work through how vertical percentage margins and paddings are defined.
- Note: Top and bottom margins in CSS have traditionally resolved against the containing block width instead of its height, which has some useful effects but is generally surprising. Existing layout modes must of course continue to do so.
- The discussion came down to three potential solutions:
- Always resolve percents against the width.
- Grid and flex resolve against height, and abspos items always resolve against the width.
- Grid and flex, including their abspos items, resolve against the height. Abspos elsewhere continue to resolve against the width.
- In a straw poll the group was pretty evenly divided between options 1 and 3.
- Microsoft would object to option 1 and Google to option 3, so the discussion reached an impasse and will be continued privately during the F2F in hopes of reaching a conclusion.
Full Minutes || Specs Referenced: Flexbox, Grid
Testing
- Resolved: Down-level tests (e.g. CSS2.1 color tests) should be updated to not fail on higher-level implementations (e.g. CSS4 color implementations), but should also leave the old pass conditions intact so that down-level clients can still pass the tests for the older featureset.
- It was noted that CSS reftests have a “match at least one of these references” feature, so this can be accommodated by linking two correct-rendering references instead of just one.
Full Minutes
Minutes Telecon 2015-09-09
- Resolved: Accept the change for behavior of cloned margins at breaks in Fragmentation.
- Resolved: Publish Fragmentation as CR.
- fantasai will clarify the meaning of prefixing in sections 3.3.2 and 3.3.3 of the Snapshot 2015. Microsoft and Apple will send it around to interested parties asking for input for next week’s call.
- Resolved: Accept the new wording to put a conformance requirement on authoring tools that whenever they reorder something visually, it’s reflected in the DOM, (full text available here) pending bcampbell’s feedback.
- Resolved: No change for baselines on flex and grid containers.
- Resolved: Revert the decision to change ‘0’ -> ‘0%’ in Flexbox and note in the spec there’s a chance there might be a webcompat issue.
- Resolved: Simplify spec to restrict
auto-fill and auto-fit to only take single track sizes as an argument. Leave issue open asking for use cases, and switch back if needed. Turn the issue into a note at CR saying a future level might expand.
- Resolved: Republish Grid with the changes discussed during the telecon.
- Everyone was tasked with reviewing Grid so that the authors can stay on target to publish CR during TPAC.
- glazou urged progress on three very visible specs, Transforms, Transitions, and Animations, and will also be reviewing the rest of the specs before TPAC to make sure that nothing has stalled progress.
- Though official confirmation is pending, the Japanese industry meeting will likely occur on the Sunday before TPAC.
Full Minutes
CSS Cascade 4: Last Call for Comments
The CSS Working Group has published an updated Working Draft of CSS Cascading and Inheritance Level 4. This CSS module describes how to collate style rules and assign values to all properties on all elements by way of cascading (choosing a winning declaration among many) and inheritance (propagating values from parent to child).
Additions to Level 4 include:
Since we have no open or anticipated issues, we plan to transition this module to Candidate Recommendation in about four weeks. We do encourage people to review the draft, particularly the changes since Level 3, and send us comments. Changes since the last Working Draft are listed in the Changes section.
As always, please send feedback to the (archived) public mailing list www-style@w3.org with the spec code ([css-cascade-4]) and your comment topic in the subject line. (Alternatively, you can email one of the editors and ask them to forward your comment.)
Minutes Telecon 2015-08-12
- It was clarified that the ‘system’ keyword will be in Fonts 4.
- jdaggett will work with TabAtkins and fantasai to put Fonts 3 into bikeshed working through the issues that jdaggett has had in the past.
- The proposal from Myles regarding introducing small-caps into font-synthesis was discussed.
- There was concern that the use case was just theoretical, not actual, though dauwhe said that he has to make sure there is no use of synthetic small-caps in his work.
- Several members argued that they believed there needed to be a fallback for when small-caps isn’t available.
- Resolved: support small-caps in font-synthesis in Fonts 4
- Specifying how keyframes interact topic will wait until the F2F in Paris to make sure that Mozilla is okay with the change.
- Resolved: unprefix min/max-content
- gregwhitworth will work on building out a test suite for CSS Sizing
- Discussion of Ruby issues will also wait until the F2F.
- Fantasai’s proposal regarding max-content contribution not being defined for flex items needs review, especially from TabAtkins and dholbert, so it will also wait until the F2F.
Full Minutes
CSS Grid Layout Update, Request for Comments
The CSS Working Group has published an updated Working Draft of CSS Grid Layout Level 1. This module defines a new type of layout manager, the grid, which makes it extremely easy to specify complex, responsive 2-dimensional layouts for a page or components.
We hope to close the remaining issues over the next month and prepare to issue a Candidate Recommendation this fall, so please review the draft and the issues and send feedback! We want to make everyone happy, but that won’t happen if you complain after we’re done and everyone’s already shipped their implementations and you only bother to tell us you don’t like something two years later, yeah? So review now, and complain sooner rather than later. 🙂
Changes since the last Working Draft are listed in the Changes section, and since we forgot to announce the previous few publications on this blog, you might also want to check March 2015 and May 2014 if you’re interested specifically in changes. The most significant changes over the last year include
We welcome all feedback, particularly from Web authors. If you need a layout to align in two dimensions, this is the module for it, so make sure it handles the things you need! Please help us make this module more correct, more useful, more usable, and more readable!
As always, please send feedback to the (archived) public mailing list www-style@w3.org with the spec code ([css-grid]) and your comment topic in the subject line. (Alternatively, you can email one of the editors and ask them to forward your comment.) Known issues are listed in in this issue-tracking list.
Minutes Telecon 2015-08-05
- bkardell informed the group that
:has() has received a lot of support on Microsoft’s uservoice.
- Resolved: In case of one single supports query the innermost parentheses are optional in functional notation
- This resolution applies to both JS and
supports()
- Resolved: Leave the spec as-is for
contain: paint and overflow: clip
- Resolved: Clarify contain to make sure it specifies the order of operations
- Resolved: Accept the new ‘system’ value and its definition with a note in the spec about fingerprinting issue.
- Resolved: Add LCH to the Colors 4 spec
- Everyone on the call was in support of the proposal to create
sideways-lr and sideways-rl in writing-mode, but all the interested parties weren’t on the call, so a decision will occur on the mailing list.
- Resolved: Revert the Media Queries spec on the whitespace requirement
- Everyone received an action to review TabAtkins’ proposed algorithm for handling how animations interact with each other when one has an animation timing function and others don’t
Full Minutes
Minutes Telecon 2015-07-29
- Resolved: Publish updated WD of Grid Layout
- There was still no consensus on what to do with the name ‘any’ in CSS Break, though it was agreed to be troublesome. Possible solutions were:
- Accept the name
- Rename it
- Push it to level 4
- Change ‘always’ to ‘all’ so that ‘any’ would make more sense
- There was no consensus so discussion will continue on the mailing list.
- As the percent resolution for abspos vs inflow grid items issue is dependent on a F2F topic, a final decision will hold off until the Paris meeting.
- There were three proposed solutions to address
overflow: clip
- A) “overflow: clip” is a paint only operation, it does not (on its own) create a BFC, and if “contain” is not “paint”, you can have “overflow-x:clip” in one dimension and “overflow-y:visible” (and vice versa). Amend the definition of “resize” and “text-overflow” (and anything else that depends on “overflow”) to deal with the new possibility of being visible in one dimension only.
- B) Rename to “overflow: hidden no-scroll”. It creates a BFC. If you specify it in one dimension only and leave the other visible, the visible one computes to auto.
- C) Don’t introduce a new value to overflow, make “contain:paint” cause “overflow:visible” to compute to “overflow:hidden”, and implement heuristics to detect when browsers should avoid allocating the resources needed to do the scrolling.
- The group first discussed the merits of A before deciding to rule it out completely. C seemed like the ideal case, but browsers weren’t capable of it yet, so the group decided on B. There was a mini bikeshedding session after the telecon on IRC where ‘clip’ and ‘none’ seemed to be the most favored, but the decision is still up in the air.
- Resolved: pick option B behavior, defer naming to editors, everyone complains if they pick something bad
Full Minutes
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