Meeting minutes
<addison> COGA minutes are at: https://
agenda review
[no objection from call]
ruby a11y
[self introduction from Murata Makoto]
murata: I gave a talk at APAWG on ruby related roles, and will be explained later here
murata: hope to create a WG Note based on above wiki page contents
… and hope to be a joint of A11y and i18n WGs
murata: let me demonstrate insteresting examples on ruby T2S
… how harmful double reading is
… double reading means to T2S both base and ruby annotation, sometimes that make reading totally incorrect
… so, double reading is quite dangerous
… but for some ruby used for non phonetics, but as annotation
… slide p3
… for these cases, double reading is the most appropriate
… on that point, we need to be possible to specify whether phonetics or annotation
… slide p4
… another example why reading phonetic ruby can be dangerous
… these examples are very carefully selected, although
… ruby is in Kana characters, sometimes will cause additional issue, like Ha and Wa
murata: there are many issues on T2S of ruby, so I would want to publish a WG Note on this point
r12a: looking at wiki page, have two things I don't really know
… one is how to publish as a joint WG Note
… you want to wait movement of a11y along with i18n movement
… if it doesn't provide explicit instructions on handling on ruby T2S, it doesn't work
murata: working on another companion document on this point
… but not sure how to finish that document
… on a11y tools, engines, etc., toolchain is complecated
plh: Murata is not a part of groups? need to join.
… it is a Note, not rec-track matter
… if this document will move to rec-track later, issue need to raise, although
addison: if we are to have a joint publication, one WG should host or?
r12a: a bit more background, this is coming from JL-TF under IG, like simple-ruby, which is published through i18n WG
plh: owner ship transfer is fine if both groups agree
… if one group owns the documentation, that group need to issue CfC
… would not change anything on publication process
fantasai: need to involve a11y groups to get attention
… it would be difficult to get attention from them, where they don't have an experties on that area
… but, formal approval need to go through both groups
<Zakim> r12a, you wanted to react to r12a
<fantasai> i18n has the expertise to support the editor
r12a: document has currently use in i18n area, and having a related document within us
<fantasai> but a11y needs to be involved, because this requires changes to a lot of things, from specs to OS APIs
<fantasai> having it a joint publication means a11y needs to pay attention
fantasai: this document would not ever become rec-track
… several items need to be considered on ruby T2S, like how T2S handles ruby or markup
… this document would serves similar role as JLREQ or Aharon's bidi problems in HTML document, explaining the problems but not inventing solutions
<fantasai> fantasai: the NOTE would open up the problem space and explain it, and other REC-track documents would be written informed by this NOTE
r12a: question in my mind, bidi document is in similar situation
… i18n WG raised issue on that document to external groups
<addison> (for reference: https://
r12a: to Makoto, is it ok to publish as i18n WG Note, or still want to involve a11y
murata: no strong opiniton, but want to get attention from a11y colleagues
… I've gate a talk about my proposal of two ARIA roles on ruby
… for first role, it was pointed to be submitted to whatwg
… for second one, one points to agree with ARIA role, but some points to be as whatwg attribute
addison: we have a tracking issue for Whatwg repositories, and label your one with that after adding issue
r12a: should we add, or HTML WG?
fantasai: need to resolve question of whether ruby is being specced in WHATWG or W3C first
plh: WICG is an option
… they incubate new items in html, and some will be brought
… advantage over ARIA is a support by browsers and tools
addison: what is next step?
… currently don't have a document
… do you have a sense when document will come?
murata: hope to create an html document by respec, once repository is available
r12a: where do we create was in discussion, in jlreq could be easy
… if we want to have as a joint document, we may need to consider
plh: when creating new repositories, consider who to own
addison: If we create, but also we need to ask a11y to be interaction
murata: ARIA and APA
fantasai: ARIA is more about defining aria roles, right? But this is a use cases document, not defining aria roles
What we document is not a technical solution. Although it may be related to ARIA, it is mainly an a11y use case.
addison: murata-san, already have discussion with a11y, do they surpirise if we ask them on this?
murata: I've already talked with a11y, and they should know
… they are not not yet enthusiastic
addison: measn they don't want to work on this or?
ACTION: addison: reach out to APA about potential joint publication of T2S ruby requirements with I18N
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1090 - Reach out to apa about potential joint publication of t2s ruby requirements with i18n [on Addison Phillips - due 2021-11-04].
murata: seems not understanded yet
addison: will start conversation with them
ACTION: atsushi: create repo for ruby t2s doc
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1091 - Create repo for ruby t2s doc [on Atsushi Shimono - due 2021-11-04].
r12a: will create repo, and review doucment carefully and send feedback to Murata
-san
self introduction from Maud Stiernet
maud: coming from ARIA, Florian and Richard attended a session with us last week, and we discussed on children about writing in EU and US, and Florian talked also about ruby use in Japan
… how children literecy problem could be helped,
… it's very interesting if you really work on the concept
r12a: is a standalone group or a11y group?
maud: one community, as task force, we are going to present to several task forces
addison: formal community group or group of individuals?
maud: in wiki page, there is agenda, notes, but still as a community of individuals
… as CG
<addison> https://
murata: children rely on ruby
maud: there is one another item to add
… whether there is questions on children, and who/how to contact people. if any information is available
<fantasai> [discussion on adding to self-review checklist]
r12a: for horizontal review, adding an issue is the best way
<addison> https://
r12a: there are more than one checklist
… there is different sort of things, like for html or css
maud: list for developers
<r12a> https://
<r12a> https://
r12a: like for arabic, children is a bit difficult to read them
maud: we are working for other various areas, including visual queues
r12a: if you have writting things down, we can review the documentation
maud: we have some list of requirements for now
addison: one suggestion to bring us before you finish ones
… during a development phase
AOB?
xfq: if no, I would like to discuss of character restriction in EPUB
character restriction in EPUB
xfq: we discussed this few days ago, and files draft here
… EPUB is restricting filenames to reject emojis etc.
… ok to send this issue to EPUB?
addison: seems good to me
murata: is there any use case?
addison: if author use it in title, tag could contain
… people could do anything
… question is that is this artificial restriction or just don't want to use these characters?
xfq: if filesystem allows these characters, there is no reason to restrict these
addison: if there is any restriction on some filesystem, but I think no
r12a: it seems to be placed ago, and kept left there
murata: apple applies normalization, and see different result due to normalization
… this could avoid some problem
addison: not case for this? some could work differently for non characters etc.
murata: long time ago, Martin wrote a document of interactions between html and unicode codepoint, still valid document?
r12a: no
[agreed to send as review issue]
from CSS MTG
r12a: two things
… logical properties, discussion held and some progrees there
… generic font name, seems some progress after call
… for third point, no time yesterday, and would join sometime later
addison: maybe we can close some issues