Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

28 Oct 2021


JustineP, Jemma, ], kirkwood, FredrikFischer, Fazio, janina, Matthew_Atkinson, scott_h, Jennie, jasonjgw, stevelee, Roy, julierawe, Rain, FredrikFischer_, JF, becky, Jennie_, krisannekinney, sharon, Lionel_Wolberger, LisaSeemanKest_, addison, Fazio_, Wilco, xfq, atsushi, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Lauriat, julierawe_
Rain, julierawe


<LisaSeemanKest_> clear agenda

<Rain> scribe: Rain

TPAC Joint Session with Internationalization

<scribe> scribe: Rain

We went through a round of introductions

Lisa: asking if we would like to introduce with slides

Addison: I think we have an understanding of the conversation that we are having, but always interested in slides
... one of the things we've asked about are bigger examples of the things we are talking about

Sharing the deck so that people can review anything they find interesting offline: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1QPcayVXGsck3Ez7M1vGpJ2EYHWb5iMUfoboLqcugMZk/edit#slide=id.p

Lisa: high level overview, we are working on cognitive accessibility task force, we created the content useable document
... Some of the information as been challenging to include because we need more information as a recommendation. Great can be the enemy of the good, so we wanted to get it out and published knowing that there was more to come.
... We got some comments from the Internationalization review that were fascinating and we thought we wanted to do, but couldn't do for the first publication.
... That is what we were hoping to focus on today.

Getting to know each other, slide

some coga issues moving forward - Research and credibility - how to address international suggestions

Lisa: everything we have in the document, we want to have backed up by research. This is important for us to have some kind of source.

<r12a> https://w3c.github.io/i18n-activity/reviews/#coga-usable

Lisa: Sometimes we will have information from the community that is well founded that we will include, but we prefer to back it up with literary review where possible.

Cognitive understanding in international contexts, issue https://github.com/w3c/coga/issues/248 · Issue #248

<Fazio_> Our research results tend to be very western heavy

Lisa: so the first issue you raised that we were really interested in is the issue of clear language in international contexts. But this means something in different languages.

<LisaSeemanKest_> · Issue #248 -- taken up [from LisaSeemanKest_] ‹Fazio_› Our research results tend to be very western heavy

Link to the issue: https://github.com/w3c/coga/issues/248

Lisa: we have put this under high priority to address as properly as we can. Now we are looking for more help.
... how do we find out the different language constraints?
... how do we recruit across different cultures to gather that information?

<JcK> JcK present+

Richard: could COGA summarize the current status of the document?

Lisa: The document is https://www.w3.org/TR/coga-usable/
... it has everything we knew, including personas, user needs, what works, what doesn't work.
... This includes objectives, design guides, things to use and avoid. One of the objectives is understandable content.

Richard: what I was really hoping was to get clarity on that this is now a working group note.
... My understanding is that you are writing version 2 of this note?

Lisa: yes, we are working on an update.

Richard: when do you expect to publish?

Lisa: we think in just over a year.

Richard: will you stop at that point, or keep editing?

Lisa: we are hoping that future generations will be flexible enough and we won't need to keep it going.

Richard: raising concern that we never responded to the note, and we were unsure if you would reraise it.

Rain: raised that one of our hopes for this conversation today is to help with our communications.

<r12a> qq+

Lisa: Also noting that we are needing to improve our process.

<Zakim> r12a, you wanted to react to r12a

Addison: one of the things we are trying to understand is the goal of the document. Trying to gather all of the different cases across different languages and how to find and accept different pieces of information...
... As we see other things and considerations, whether you have a way to incorporate those or have a plan to address those. Is your goal to be very high level? Or specific?

Lisa: Our goal is that people creating web content can do so in a way that works for people with learning and cognitive disabilities. That is a broad scope.
... That is why we decided to publish knowing that there were topics that we hadn't done justice to. This is going to be an ongoing discussion and evaluation.
... Like whether we want specific addons for different countries or languages.
... what we try to do is set up subgroups.
... That subgroup can then carry on exploring this issue.
... We could do something similar here, and create a subgroup to work with Internationalization.
... Between Arabic and Hebrew there are a lot of commonalities, so maybe some aspects of that could be worked on together.

Addison: in some cases it could be writing system specific.
... I think the concern is how to best work with you, and how to best review the documents as they come out.
... How can Internationalization provide feedback early enough so that you can look into it.
... How can COGA include notes.

David: Bringing up the challenges of the quirks and needs, appreciate some help. We want to work with you. This isn't just about languages but also about layout. Synergy between the groups is super important.

Richard: I think the way to get through this is to have procedures to follow that remind you of what needs to be done.
... What Addison is trying to suggest is that we reviewed your document when it was too late to do something.
... So if you create your process in such a way so that early on, there is opportunity to review and there is plenty of time to make changes. That way we can have the discussions and time to make changes.
... I think that what we are asking for is that you have a process.

David: I think it would be even better if we could have some participation from Internationalization. So that you can be part of the process. If waiting until we are close to publish, that would be overload for us.

Addison: asking us to use their issue tracker with a "Request to review"
... don't send us an email.

Richard: Are you aware of the labels that the W3C uses? Specifically the i18n needs resolution. This means we do not want you to publish until these have been resolved.
... that would be an easy thing for you to check the github repository.
... If it has an i18n tracker tag on it, that just means we are watching it. Needs resolution does.
... Since this is a note, there is no formal process. But if this were a recommendation you would have to fix them before transitioning.

David: github is challenging for us.

Jennie: I hear that you are asking to be involved in the process early and appreciate that. This is one of the things COGA is also asking of others. This helps us to plan forward and understand the timeline.
... But I also heard you say "use our issue tracker"

<r12a> qq+

Jennie: One of the things that we've been trying to raise is that the issue tracker may not be accessible to us. How should we proceed if that assignment is not accessible?

Richard: talking about a very specific things. We have an issue tracker that we use to organize our tracker. It is part of the process that W3C uses as a horizontal issue.
... For us to do a review of a document, I'm outnumbered by all the working groups and we can't keep track of things otherwise.

Lisa: one of the things we did before publishing was go through the issues. We thought this was resolved for the moment because the comment above sounded like you were happy.
... This kind of thing where a github issue, we are opening it, we think it is closed, and then it reopens. We are very unlikely to pick up on github notifications. If a new issue is opened.

<Fazio_> Again, Github is a difficult system for COGA needs

Addison: I think when you go to publish, if you review your open issues, and if you aren't sure about closing it, then this would be helpful.

<Zakim> r12a, you wanted to react to Jennie

Richard: three things that might help. 1. request review, 2. check for needs resolution issues. These are things that should be done at the group level. Not just the person who is assigned but also the facilitator. 3. Given the nature of the group, I will offer that there is a single page that describes the process and make a simpler version that will describe how we can make this communication more effective.
... Third: do you use the notifications system that is available?

Lisa: yes. The notifications system does not work for us because it is challenging for us. Lots of subject lines, hard to tell what you've looked at.

Richard: I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing. Because notifications will tell you every time there is a new comment.

Lisa: trying to explain that there is difficulty with this. We tried our best. We missed this, we get it, we can take it back and review again.

A resource to help other groups with working with COGA: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1UIQu4RqklIlFjEuDPh3bZgMaeqexsRW32ite37AOhoA/edit#slide=id.gf082ec77ba_0_21

Lisa: a definite to do on our side is to work with WAI to figure out how to improve our process.
... we will work on this challenge. We do need you to accept that we have our challenges with managing github.

Richard: first of all, let's forget the problem with this particular issue. What we are trying to do is offer ways that we can help. So if you try and fix your process, please include us, we will try to help.

Addison: we are happy to adjust how we work to best meet your needs.

<Jennie> * Working together to improve the process would be wonderful.

Addison: We try to place comments as efficiently as we can. We are happy to have joint calls to resolve issues if those are more effective.

Lisa: if you are unhappy that we haven't responded to you, with a short direct subject line with what it is about, and that is much more likely to catch us.

Addison: the only time I will be unhappy is if you publish a document that has open issues against it.

Lisa: we now have two issues that we very much want to address in the next version. This issue, and the synergy where the needs may be the same between internationalization and COGA
... This is another very interesting area.

Julie: suggest that in the case of the issue, that maybe in the future, to keep using your standard process with github, but when you change a label, send an email to Lisa and Rain, saying just so you know, we've changed the issue, can we have a conversation. This is an accomodation as a step to help the COGA team.

<LisaSeemanKest_> next item

Addison: needs resolution starts life that way. This doesn't change.

Richard: I think what we are hearing is that they are not use the notifier, so they need the additional accomodation.

Lisa: moving ahead to we have two huge topics. We may not be able to address them all in the next version. Maybe we should then have a link out to wiki pages where work could be added.
... Other than this process issue, is there another way to move forward with these interesting points? Understandability in different languages and contexts, and synergy?
... Can we ask for your help?
... Do you have the resources to put out a call to people in the international community to explore and share some of this information with us?
... Or help us address these issues as well as we can?

Richard: we want to, but we are completely overloaded all the time.

<kirkwood> what are the opinions of internationlization and the topic of plain language?

<LisaSeemanKest_> scribe: julierawe

John: One thing that bumped up in intersection of cognitive and internalization is plain language. Is there anything you use on the topic of plain language and how that makes internationalization more efficient?

<kirkwood> academia.edu ?

Richard: You might want to try academia.edu. I can send you an email. It is a repository of acacemic papers.
... I looked at one of those papers about writing simple-to-read text and then I was deluged with similar stuff in Arabic and Hebrew. But I didn't have time to read them.
... I'll see if I can find the link you need and send it to you. They have a lot of information on that.

Lisa: We have that link and are using it for mental health review. We can take that approach of staffing a literary review.
... It seemed this might be an area that some of you had expertise in.
... I think we have next steps. We invite you to put into that comment thread or anywhere you like any actual information you have, even if it's partial. We can then look it up and see what research is behind it.
... Any concrete information and additional ideas is very useful.
... We can keep that ongoing.
... Thanks everyone for your contributions.

John: Nice to meet all of you.

<Jennie> Thank you for the conversation!

David: Look forward to collaborating in the future.

Rain: Keep the minutes open.

Silver and COGA Joint Session

Richard: The internationalization guys are going to move to our own channel now.

<Rain> scribe: Rain

<LisaSeemanKest_> TOPIC Silver


Lisa: we would like to check our process, make sure we are doing this well, we really appreciate the work that Silver is putting in in making a standard that is more flexible and inclusive.


Not scribing introductions

While we do introductions, I added an agenda slide to a deck that also has lots of information about COGA: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1vCW2dv1et4uw3UcQ4tqFjZlKsA_i1ZIsYfrmFPUPmxY/edit#slide=id.gfb49a7af56_0_8

<julierawe> Rain, I need access to that deck, thanks

Thanks to Julie for letting me know that the deck access needed to be opened up. I've made it available. Repeating the link: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1vCW2dv1et4uw3UcQ4tqFjZlKsA_i1ZIsYfrmFPUPmxY/edit#slide=id.gfb49a7af56_0_8

<LisaSeemanKest_> next item

<LisaSeemanKest_> next item

<LisaSeemanKest_> take up item 6

Shawn: A good starting point would be a timeline that we facilitators can piece together from the overall structure.

<Lauriat> Timeline: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yzR1H0SnNFRELGchb_BJr4Necsrj6xVjDF1n7Tc0kTc/edit#gid=0

<LisaSeemanKest_> agenda

Shawn: We brought this up with the overall working group. Fair warning, this link goes to an enormous spreadsheet. Rachael put this together as we were trying to get an overall picture of what this looks like.
... one way that you can get a good overview is to ignore all of the text that is in column A and zoom out to the overall timeline to get to candidate recommendations in the middle of 2026.
... This is a long and somewhat intimidating timeline. We need to figure out something better for getting through the work.
... If you zoom in a little bit and focus on the milestones that are bolded and do not have any entry for timelines. That gives you a sense of the foundational work that we are doing right now.
... some of that involves writing templates and methods.
... One of the questions I heard is how to work through those templates.
... Row 12, happening now, is what are the test types, how are they named.
... Even with these as an example, and something says "this will be done this quarter," this means really only the first incarnation that we can work through. The process will evolve over time as we figure out better things we can be doing.
... Everything is living in this state.
... once we get to prototyping, we will move into foundational work discussions. These will be discussions to solidify what we've worked through. This will be happening over the next year and a half.
... For example, test types will be around mid-2022 to solidify which test types are in the first version of WCAG 3.
... We have a lot to figure out in terms of scoring and conformings.
... right now, we are saying that for those writing guidance, granular tests are okay to focus on. More kind of holistic tests. We are still in the process of working out what those might look like. This is tied to the conformance model and we are in a prototyping phase.

Lisa: I have to say, a lot of that, I need to look at in more detail.
... What is happening with the writing process?
... How long are you expecting? We originally talked about 3 months sprints per guidance?

Shawn: For the writing process, this is something we are revisiting. On our schedule for tomorrow is to go through the writing process to figure out how to manage things so far.
... having it be in a more initial drafted state rather than something good to go to candidate recommendation would be good.
... We are trying to figure out how to manage maturity. This is in flux in terms of managing those kinds of milestones.

Julie: wanted to ask Shawn. Excited to hear about the templates. If you can give specifics on how soon those templates will be ready to share?

Shawn: once we've recorded feedback that we've gotten, we will share them. It is on the timeline for this quarter.

Lisa: thinking of changing this agenda slightly of going into our document and how we were thinking of mapping it to making templates.

mapping method template and COGA

Lisa: after we look at how we are thinking of mapping, then we will move to the questions on testing that we have.

Lisa is sharing screen, showing Content usable and the drafts we are working on.

<Lauriat> https://www.w3.org/TR/coga-usable/

<Fazio_> The Functional Needs Group did a good job translating our objectives into functional outcomes

Lisa: Content usable starts with objectives. The goals. Then in User stories we have stories. Patterns has practical guidance, then we also include testing and personas.
... Thinking in a way that each user story could be a method, as these are functional outcomes.
... Then we can look at the design guide and use these as the "how to do"

<Zakim> Lauriat, you wanted to ask about the inversion of the user story as the outcome and potentially the way to build up the tests

Shawn: Your expansion going to the design guide helps as well.
... You mentioned something about the inversion of the user story to create that outcome. I think that very much makes sense.
... Especially with the design guide there. That will help to build up these tests in order to validate that the outcome is met.
... Starting with the end point and being able to build. Example: are there headings on the page? Then is the heading helping person know what the content is? and build from there.

Lisa: We also have a "how it helps." But we've separated what to do and more details to try to not overwhelm people.
... The basic what to do makes sense for someone doing something simple, but then a more sophisticated content provider may want to be able to do even mroe.
... We've put the annoying details under more details. For the purpose of Silver and technical description, we've pulled them back in. This is what the Silver audience will be expecting.
... this is where we start to move into testing.
... Under "examples". We've put in each one a "use" and "avoid" for good patterns and things that you need to avoid.
... That forms a testable statement.
... so we thought that this could map to the testing section. Want to check if this also fits well.
... we also have a section on testing. We have some test questions for each of the objectives, but the granularity may be a bit off here.

<Zakim> Lauriat, you wanted to point to images example method that has description, examples, and tests: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG3/2020/methods/informative-images/

Shawn: pointing to an example method that we have drafted up, which has a punch of parallels for what Lisa was describing.
... Introduction and description tab, similar to what we are describing with how it helps and more details.
... We do have examples but tend to stick to positive examples only, not negatives.
... This is because some of the research we did early on for Silver brought up some confusion of negative examples of things to avoid. People thought that if they avoided those things, they would pass, which is not necessarily true.
... We have the tests tab, with two major sections.
... The first is atomic tests. Example: for an image, here is how to check if it has appropriate alternative text.

<kirkwood> very interesting support for positive samples only. good point

Shawn: The second are holistic tests. This is something we are still working on, but would be about how the incorrectness is trying to impact how the user is trying to do something.
... Atomic, check for page headings. If there are page headings, look at the context of the headings, and here is how to describe how well the heading describes the purpose.
... You may have a test result that instead of just true or false, may indicate how well or poorly something works.
... You may have a section that describes how well something does.

<kirkwood> concise headings is very good point

Julie: This is helpful to be looking at this example. Noticed the last tab is resources. Looks like How To resources. Wanted to ask about: as we are putting together our draft, do we need to be providing our research base?
... What gives us the idea that this is effective?

Shawn: Absolutely, please do include these.

Julie: where will the research base go?

Shawn: all of the research will be internally used. At least some, if not all, would make sense to also include on the resources tab in the guideline.
... One of the requirements that we have of WCAG 3 is to be more data driven and research based.

<Lauriat> WCAG 3 Requirements, with Design Principles as well (which mentions data-based decisions and research basis of work): https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag-3.0-requirements/

Lisa: Related point for when we are doing the mapping. We have a page of a lot of items that were made into proposals.
... While writing the new methods, because in the work we did for WCAG 2 we were asked for testability and procedures. Some of these didn't make it to discussion, so may still need review. Some did.
... These techniques documents from our research predated content usable.
... We made content useable as a way of getting this information out.

The link that Lisa is showing: https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/extension/status.html

Julie: Do you recommend that we as the Clear Language subgroup try to get one method ready similar to informative images?
... And then who would we share it with to see if this is the right track to see if we should build the other methods using the same approach?

Shawn: yes, that would be useful. You can send to Shawn and Jeanne, or overall silver email list.
... Can also suggest bringing it to the group for a discussion, which can be more helpful.

<Lauriat> Silver mailing list: public-silver@w3.org

Lisa: we also had a question about testable statements: do you prefer one long testable statement, or that each statement is granular?
... For example, help user undo mistakes. When we write the test for this: you may have back, or undo. Do you want one long statement such as make sure this series of things does or doesn't happen, or each stage separate?

Shawn: think that a better approach is to start separate.

<Zakim> Lauriat, you wanted to speak to levels of maturity in bringing things to the Silver group vs. getting things into drafts

Rain: asked about how to bring things to the silver group given our concerns about the types of pushback and misunderstandings we've received in the past.

Shawn: encourage to bring things early and often so that it can be iterated.
... Encourage to bring things that still have open questions, because then we can identify people who can start answering those questions.
... We don't have an expectation that anything will be buttoned up in order to actually test them out.
... We need to be able to test these out and run tests to validate. Are these implementable? Do they make sense in a regulatory environment?
... Until we validate, we are not going to have everything be perfect.
... For bringing things to the silver group, please have a lower bar that you are meeting.
... This way, you aren't working on something for an extended period of time only to find out that something isn't working.
... Good recruiting opportunity.
... Able to identify areas we can punt for later.
... and how do we get something to the point where it is packaged and ready to bring to the overall group, that this will help.

Lisa: We are aware of the W3C process as well, but as we are talking about things within our little subgroup and it going to the wide world, we have been so knocked down. It gets narrowed and narrowed in scope until it's lost a lot of meaning.
... I think having a process in place now, with the first ones, as we go out and see how that reacts, and tweaking that process of how we resolve things might be as important as any other piece.
... Won't be seen by anyone, but having agreed that user requirements must be in, but testable things are in a separate section. Figuring out the fuzzy testable stuff together that may not get through because of too many exceptions or something.
... noting ahead of time that there are probably going to be areas where people will make a strong effort, with more resources than us, to remove some of what we hope to get in.
... It can get depressing if it goes that way, so we may want to think ahead of time what is a safe way of doing this.
... Knowing that everyone is trying their best.

Shawn: I hear you on that one. Honestly, that's one of the big things that we bring up as a way of validating whether a conformance model can work.
... Does this result in this kind of guidance being shuffled to the back? If so, that's not going to work for us.

Lisa: We really are grateful and impressed with the strides being taken.

<Ryladog> Sorry I have to drop. Thank you all!

<Jennie> * Apologies - have to drop. Thanks for the conversation.

<LisaSeemanKest_> https://www.w3.org/2021/10/27-coga-minutes.html

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

[End of minutes]

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Default Present: JustineP, Jemma, ], kirkwood, FredrikFischer, Fazio, janina, Matthew_Atkinson, scott_h, Jennie, jasonjgw, stevelee, Roy, julierawe, Rain, FredrikFischer_, JF, becky, Jennie_, krisannekinney, sharon, Lionel_Wolberger, LisaSeemanKest_, addison, Fazio_, Wilco, xfq, atsushi, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Lauriat, julierawe_
Present: JustineP, Jemma, ], kirkwood, FredrikFischer, Fazio, janina, Matthew_Atkinson, scott_h, Jennie, jasonjgw, stevelee, Roy, julierawe, Rain, FredrikFischer_, JF, becky, Jennie_, krisannekinney, sharon, Lionel_Wolberger, LisaSeemanKest_, addison, Fazio_, Wilco, xfq, atsushi, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Lauriat, julierawe_
Found Scribe: Rain
Inferring ScribeNick: Rain
Found Scribe: Rain
Inferring ScribeNick: Rain
Found Scribe: julierawe
Inferring ScribeNick: julierawe
Found Scribe: Rain
Inferring ScribeNick: Rain
Scribes: Rain, julierawe
ScribeNicks: Rain, julierawe
Found Date: 28 Oct 2021
People with action items: 

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