COGA Joint Meetings--RQTF & Personalization

27 Oct 2021


], becky, Fazio, FredrikFischer, FredrikFischer_, janina, jasonjgw, Jemma, Jennie, Jennie_, JF, julierawe, JustineP, kirkwood, krisannekinney, Lionel_Wolberger, LisaSeemanKest_, Matthew_Atkinson, Rain, Roy, scott_h, sharon, stevelee
FredrikFischer_, Jennie, rain

Meeting minutes


<LisaSeemanKest_> i cant not find a join link

<LisaSeemanKest_> even after I log in

<CharlesL> Thats what I have been emailing about for the past 1/2 hour

Joint meeting starting now! Link: https://web-eur.cvent.com/hub/events/2b77fe3d-2536-467d-b71b-969b2e6419b5/sessions/8bdd3706-c6c6-462a-ba79-332d894c7aff

<janina> Chair Lisa


<Jennie> * Rain if you need a scribe I can scribe

Lisa: I am chair for this meeting.

<LisaSeemanKest_> i https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/TPAC_2021_initial_planning#Schedule_overview

Rain: There is a slide with our agenda

<Rain> Slide with Agenda: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1JPpjI9YQCklBNMAcfRKqk9oVBq2xew25QDayCY3UqFs/edit#slide=id.gf9c2cb3a0d_0_0

Lisa: We did meet with Jason. He came to one of our calls.
… There is a specific overlap: research with COGA framework.
… There is a real value in improving how we work together, and enabling each other's work if possible
… We thought we would give a brief introduction to COGA, and to RQTF
… Then, where we would like help if it is available
… And where we could help the Research Questions Task Force
… Rain has a few slides for introduction
… Then maybe RQTF has some information to introduce the topic

Jason: I can do the introduction to RQTF

Scott: I can help as well

Rain: (note: not sharing the slides, but access them at https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1JPpjI9YQCklBNMAcfRKqk9oVBq2xew25QDayCY3UqFs/edit#slide=id.gf9c2cb3a0d_0_0_
… Some of the numbers can help understand about those with cognitive disabilities
… Around 12% of the US has cognitive disabilities, and most likely this can be extrapolated to the rest of the world
… This percentage only includes those that have reported that they have this disability
… This could be missing a misdiagnosis, a lack of understanding, and sometimes they are situational and not recognized as cognitive disabilities
… This is a huge portion of the population
… 1 in 16 will be over 65 in the future, and some cognitive changes may come with age

<Fazio> More than 200 million people around the world, approximately 3% of the global population, has an intellectual disability, according to conservative estimates. That number is projected to increase to around 300 million by 2050, acording to World Health Organization data.

Rain: Our task force wants to be sure people understand this is a human rights consideration

Rain: self-care, safety, independence - these are key places to make an impact

<Fazio> It is essential to the economy and society that people with intellectual, and cognitive, disabilities stay as active as possible, and participate in society for as long as possible.

Rain: and ensure the world catches up with enabling people to use the tools they have to use.

<Fazio> The current state of standard web-based applications and other digital interfaces means that even people with only a mild cognitive decline may find them impossible to use. That means more and more people are dependent on caregivers for things that they should be able to do themselves, increasing the crippling cost of care and reducing human dignity.

Rain: These are all the skills we all use when interacting with digital interfaces
… Some of us struggle with these as well
… Attention, reading, learning, memory (can be broken into many categories)

<Fazio> more people are dependent on caregivers for things that they should be able to do themselves, increasing the crippling cost of care and reducing human dignity.

Rain: Executive function, regulation process, mental health as well
… These are also things people can experience in everyday life.
… This can be a lot more impactful for people with certain diagnoses
… Cognitive interference can cause everyone to struggle
… but for individuals with certain levels of cognitive support needs or differences this can be an abolute barrier
… to participation in things like research studies
… And what happens is that the barrier is so strong that they become invisible
… When people are so blocked that people cannot participate - not only can't people use it, but there ends up being no metrics
… That a group of people were unable to use it. People disappear.
… Most of you are aware that we recently published Making Content Usable for People with Cognitive and Learning Disabilities
… as a way to include people with cognitive disabilities.
… At this time mental health is missing because we needed more research

<Fazio> We have real world examples on how RQTF effects COGA Success Criteria

Rain: And we are trying to work on addressing this
… Thank you Janina for suggesting this session
… And now I will turn it over to RQTF

Jason: As to what is happening in the RQTF lately

Jason: RQTF is a task force of the APA working group and it's purpose is to support the development of those specifications by looking at relevant research,
… and to understand the relevant work. Also to review the working drafts and be part of informing these specifications.
… An additional function is to work more proactively on emerging web technologies such as augmented reality, real time communication, natural language interfaces, and issues of media synchronization.
… Working on this with the aid of an EU project that has helped to provide expertise and staff resources.
… That grant is coming to an end, but has extended our work and we hope that work can be continued.
… Current developments: RQTF has recently published four public working drafts, one of which addresses media synchronization.
… The second one is on the accessibility of remote meetings, to provide more general guidance for audiences beyond technology developers around remote and hybrid meeting arrangements.
… The third one is the natural user interface requirements, for conversational and linguistic interaction. This includes speech based interfaces but is by no means restricted to those.
… Also been adding W3C notes

Jason: also other questions such as media streams and changing color and audio spectrum dynamically in media content, and flashes.

Scott: quickly add thank you to COGA with advice on captcha and xr requirements.

David: one of the things we are super interested in is getting mental health priorities aligned and figure out how to turn this into useful success criteria.

David Fazio: in the redundant entry work, focused on how it can trigger fatigue and other real challenges, but we couldn't get this into the understanding document because we shouldn't be talking about the effects of cognitive accessibility on user groups because we aren't a medical association, even though this is backed by research.
… The studies are also not really on how users with cognitive disabilities interact with the tools, but more focused on using technology for diagnosis.
… One of the most important things we need to do is figure out some kind of format or structure to get something viable.

<LisaSeemanKest_> https://www.w3.org/TR/coga-usable/

Lisa: we have a subgroup right now on mental health. We included some mental health considerations in making content usable.
… There is a huge overlap between mental health and cognitive abilities. When people are in crisis, their ability to focus is lower, their memory may be impacted, different cognitive functions may be impacted.

<Fazio> +1Lisa Mental health affects cognitive capabilities

<LisaSeemanKest_> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Subgroups/Mental_Health

Lisa: we've set up a subgroup (above is the subgroup's wiki page).

<LisaSeemanKest_> https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeGrqJKV7RluoYrKHJN8cBJH3w9sDx7lAlAhcV0BeBTUVybkw/viewform

Lisa: We have a Google spreadsheet and form to contribute to the literature review.
… We think this is good information to have, but would love your feedback on whether this is the right information we should be looking for.
… Also adding to David's point, not everyone in COGA is the right person to be doing a literary review. That's another challenge we have. If there are people in APA and RQTF who could help us do literary reviews, it would enable us to move much quicker.
… What we are doing here is looking at so many disabilities and impairments that people may be struggling with, and finding a lot of commonalities. This will cross over to create user needs in all the different spaces.

Lisa: I don't know if anyone's looked at psychosis in VR, that seems like a good idea, but I don't know.

Lisa: Two ways of looking at it. One is the affect of accessibility. Because you have a disability, you cannot access something. (Example, our struggles getting this meeting going and getting people in.)

<Fazio> but it does happen

Lisa: The next question is are you actually harming the individual with the disability, and making it worse. We are not focused on that, but are interested in information.

<Zakim> janina, you wanted to ask definition of "redundant entry"?

Janina: would like clarification on "redundant entry"

Fazio: It's about reentering information in multiple steps whether necessary or not. When you have to repeat something it creates cognitive fatigue, which has a compounding effect. AGWG issue.

<Fazio> What about research structure/process

<Fazio> ??

Jason: From the RQTF standpoint, we are available to review documents. If we have documents that we have in draft form, then we can be asked to review it. That channel is always available and open.
… On the process of investigating HCI and mental health concerns and intersection, I think that requires areas of research expertise that the RQTF doesn't have among its current participants. We can try to recruit expertise in this area, but it might make better sense for the COGA group to do this recruiting.

Jason: think about where your recruitment effort might be best directed. Having significant cognitive science and HCI expertise would be an important contribution.
… Mental health issues also raise important questions about the appropriate scope of accessibility work and the identity challenges. Example: is mental health the right framework to be thinking about certain kinds of diversity?
… If you'd like to look at the research that's been done in an informed way, the research is quite important, but at the moment I don't think that's operative within the W3C.

Jason: think about fine-tuning the kind of recruitment we want to do.

Jason: regarding the studies side, I found some reading on that that was quite interesting.

Lisa: Just to clarify, we are trying our best to recruit. If you have suggestions, we would be delighted. Haven't received good response.
… What is an effective method of recruitment?

<Jennie> * Judy is in the q in Zoom

Lisa: The other clarification we would like, if you have concrete suggestions on how to recruit, that would be useful. We would be interested in any studies that you are aware of that we should be adding to our review.
… Just to clarify, you don't feel that RQTF would be interested in checking our form to improve capture of research? Or in doing literary review? That is outside your scope?

David: the more support we can get from RQTF, the better we can make this happen.

Judy: the RQTF has some awesome literature review and research folks. Appreciate COGA coming to the TF and articulating needs and interests.

<Fazio> As the APA liaison, should I bring things up during the regular APA meeting?

Judy: I think the kinds of questions you are raising fit quite well within the kinds of things that RQTF may want to look at in the future, and having them framed well is a good way to get people in RQTF interested and poking around. I hope RQTF does take a look at some of the questions you are raising.
… In terms of making the web accessible, we've got to be looking at these issues.

Judy: circling back to a topic David brought up, about the kinds of pushback received. Were you saying that some group was saying that the potential needs were out of scope because of concern about getting into liability because of medical area?
… Would like to follow up to better understand that pushback and where it came from because we don't have this limitation, but we do have to be careful how we frame any type of guidance.

Fazio: they weren't saying that the SC was out of scope, but in the understanding document I put statement about the impact of mental fatigue.

Judy: I'd like to follow up more in the future because there should be some way to address fatigue issues as a cognitive area needing accomodation.

Roy: requested host control for screen sharing.

How can COGA help RQTF?

How can RQTF help COGA?

Lisa: when we have specific research questions (example: what is the number of items a person can remember), then are those things we can bring to RQTF? We are running into very similar situations with Clear Language, where people are asking very specific questions. Is this something we can ask for help?

Scott: I personally think RQTF is very open to providing research. If it is a case of pulling together literature, then absolutely. I think the challenge for us is that we don't have expertise in cognitive and mental health.

<kirkwood> We may be able to point you to expertise.

Scott: In terms of having the door open to find papers and help with research questions, absolutely.
… There are specific points that we can analyze through research and get back to you. We are trained and work in research.
… We can have an open door to specific questions.

Jason: From the RQTF standpoint, if there is something that is arising in a draft, then asking for the review of the question in the context of a draft would be useful.
… If there is a way to provide background on why the issue is important and how it fits into the W3C agenda, that is also helpful. To think about the issue in the broader accessibility context. Helping us understand what we can say that would be useful in the circumstances in which the question is arising.

<Fazio> +1 Judy

Judy: anything that helps frame the question is useful, but there was one part of what Jason was saying that was wondering about. I think you were saying to describe how this fits into the WAI agenda for accessibility. To me, that's a given. Unsure why COGA TF would have to make a statement of why their questions fit into the WAI agenda. Saying this because it's my understanding that this is a common barrier for the COGA task force.

<LisaSeemanKest_> +1 to judy

Jason: to clarify briefly, if it is a specific type of cognitive science type issue that is arising, it is helpful to know how it fits with web accessibility, and how having an answer to it would help fulfill the accessibility agenda. Just having the cognitive issue is not as helpful as having an understanding of where it is arising.

How can COGA help RQTF?

<kirkwood> Thank you Judy.

<LisaSeemanKest_> https://www.w3.org/TR/coga-usable/

Lisa: we've got lots of user needs in the content usable document. In the broader purpose. User stories related to accessible media, for example. There is quite a lot on challenges, user needs, stories, and good patterns and bad patterns for conversational experience.
… This is based on research modules and issue papers that we wrote. We have papers both on voice menus and conversational interfaces. All work that could be used.
… Also when there is something we haven't thought of, like the XR augmented reality, that we could go into research from our side, with our expertise.
… As much as we want help from you, we'd like to be able to help with what you are doing.
… While we have these things that you can look at without asking us, we also want to be available to work with you and make sure the needs of individuals with cognitive disabilities are included in the fantastic work you are doing.

Lisa: I think with XR, we were a bit late with responding. So I think one question is how can we respond to that better?
… For example, we requested a tag for people who need help with implicit content (example: what you are meant to understand from faces), and making a track for that.
… Very similar to some of of the needs in audio description, anyway. We made the suggestion to APA, and I don't know if it's been tracked and followed, so the question is how do we make sure these are followed up on.

Janina: don't recall right now the language issue you were referencing, but I do recall the use of the track mechanism in HTML5. The surest way is to get a github issue.
… We don't have a lot of them, so that is the easiest way for us to track them.
… Question to you: what would need to change about the track mechanism in order to get that use case covered? Want to make sure we can include that use case. So specifics about what we need to change. Answer may be more metadata related.

<Jennie> * Please add into IRC full text for Mower

Janina: in terms of being late with feedback, there are three first public working drafts, and nobody is late yet. XAUR, etc. are open for public comments.

Jason: open to review and comment. Nobody late yet. Will be subsequent working draft of these. None of these are meant to go straight to notes status.
… With natural language interface document, we should expect at least some more public working drafts before this is finalized.

<Fazio> I believe we did get comments into the XAUR right?

Janina: (responding to Jennie) Media accessibility review document
… for HTML5 based media. Will add the URI

Judy: Just hearing Lisa's question and Jason's response, want to propose an adjustment. We have COGA offering expertise. We are saying here is where you can find it.

<janina> Media Accessibility User Requirements (MAUR): http://www.w3.org/TR/media-accessibility-reqs/

<Fazio> I am the APA/COGA liaison to kinda do that

Judy: Do we want to take more of a push approach where RQTF is actively out of habit and routine sending requests over as documents are approaching good comment period?
… Instead of having to have COGA discover, perhaps we can proactively tell them.

Jason: I think that's a question for Janina. It's a coordination within APA kind of question.

Janina: let's not try to resolve all of that here?

Lisa: But it is a crucial point. Comments on github are not usable for us.

<LisaSeemanKest_> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Actions_Requests

Janina: on the publications, there is always github, but there is always an email channel.

<Jennie> * Really appreciate the conversation. Dropping for the next call.

Lisa: the page link above is a place that we have where people can proactively add things that we can surface.

Added not from Rain: I check this at minimum monthly.

Lisa: Can we make an action item for APA chairs to have a coordination meeting?

<Matthew_Atkinson> Really interesting discussion; thanks all! Dropping for the Personalization call.

Janina: we have the regularly scheduled Tuesday one, and I've committed to be there every other week.

Lisa: great.

Fazio: yes, that's what we did at the beginning of the year. I think we've been doing a better job of making sure that stuff gets communicated.

For those joining for Personalization: we will be joining momentarily!

Join information: https://web-eur.cvent.com/hub/events/2b77fe3d-2536-467d-b71b-969b2e6419b5/sessions/53c10a05-3d7a-4754-ae6a-fa967fedb413

Join information for Personalization and COGA Joint Meeting

<Matthew_Atkinson> Draft Personalization TF slides (the final URL will be different): https://raw.githack.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/tpac-2021-talk/talks/2021/tpac/index.html

Slide deck to support this meeting: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1JPpjI9YQCklBNMAcfRKqk9oVBq2xew25QDayCY3UqFs/edit#slide=id.p

Thanks Rain!

<LisaSeemanKest_> next item

LisaSeemanKest_: Introductions: there are some introductions to make.

janina: People have come and gone.

<Jemma> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1JPpjI9YQCklBNMAcfRKqk9oVBq2xew25QDayCY3UqFs/edit#slide=id.p

LisaSeemanKest_: Matt has made a great presentation for personalization and Rain has presented COGA brilliantly. Here's Rain.

<LisaSeemanKest_> our slideds are online if that helps

Rain: Cognitive Accessibility is one of the most misunderstood and largest disability categories in teh rowld. There is a large slide deck about this.

Rain: At least 12 percent of the population are identified as having cognitive disabilities. Impacts vary widely.

<LisaSeemanKest_> coga slideds https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1YeqvkeE6xbh8yAAUvliA6v4MqbLsj28dFxzRcMyGTz0/edit#slide=id.p\

Rain: We see Personalization as one of the best popportunities to support persons with cognitive disabilities today.

Rain: Digital experiences are increasingly moving to critical functiosn of society, becoming more and more essential. COGA's work is really high-priority here.

<Fazio> Early COVID 19 recovery research reveals cognitive impairments

Rain: There are a lot of functional skills we use indifferent contexts: learning, memory, executive function, mental health and so muych more. Many of these are more common under certain dignoses and may vary in degree.

Rain: A slide in the deck has a photo of a father working on his phone, he has his comuter on the table i frontoof him and his two daughters all about hte room. There are situational challenges here which also hook into this work.

Rain: COGA looks at cognitive and learning disabilities. A lot of the challenges that we face are really oes that Peronsalization would be really interested in.

Rain: They have to do with the things people need to meet these challenges. There will be conflicts of interest. The more personalization we can allow for, the more we will be able to support people.

Rain: We're a task force within both APA and AGWG.

Rain: Currently, we're working on efforts to work with Silver. Also, we are looing at mental health and its impact on COGA. We would also like to look more at Personalization and Internationalization and what they may mean for a future version of Content Usable.

LisaSeemanKest_: We halso have the research documents behind Content-Usable. Issue papers that are cross different user groups looking at personalization, authehtication and so forth.

LisaSeemanKest_: In Content-Usable itself, there are a lot of user needs covered.

Introductions, get to know each other

LisaSeemanKest_: There a remor eready-made resources for Personalization to be using as starting points.

Personalization shares what they are working on

<Matthew_Atkinson> We're focusing on COGA TF-specific issues today, so won't be covering everything on all slides, to save time for discussion. We ran a breakout last week that covered all the slides at a slower pace, which you may want to check out when the recording is up: https://web-eur.cvent.com/hub/events/2b77fe3d-2536-467d-b71b-969b2e6419b5/sessions/8963e226-b836-488d-81cd-9afda63af55b - Draft slides are at https://raw.githack.com/w3c/perso[CUT]

LisaSeemanKest_: Over to Matt?

Matthew_Atkinson: I'm going to share the slides we use dfor our general breakout last week.

Matthew_Atkinson: We'll concentrate on what we need to further our relationship with COGA.

<Jennie_> * I am getting a 404 for the 2nd link. Just me?

Matthew_Atkinson: I'm Mathew and Senior A11y Engineer at TPGI, speaking for the Personalization TF. Our facilitators are Sharon Snyder and Lionel Wohlberger.

<Jennie_> * Matthew_Atikinson I think your link didn't get totally added into IRC

sharon: I work at IBM and have been with Personalization for three-four years.

Lionel_Wolberger: I'm COO at UserWay and have been with Personalization for a long time, as well as generally with APA.

Matthew_Atkinson: We want to support the next billion user to access the Web.

Matthew_Atkinson: A small amount of machine readable data will support a lot of implementations.

Matthew_Atkinson: Who are the next billion? Persons with temporary disabilities, dyscalculia, mental health challenges and so forth.

Matthew_Atkinson: A really big cohort of people we are trying to support is people who use alternative and augmentative communication (AAC) with varying vocabulary sizes and/or symbols sets.

Matthew_Atkinson: The key pöoint here about symbol sets depends on where you were educated. Therefore, it may be impossible to comunicate with people using different symbol sets.

Matthew_Atkinson: We're talking abou tpeople accessing critical services: making complaintsto the water ocmpanies, making doctors appointments, turning on the heating and os forth.

<Roy> Slides

<Jennie_> * Thanks Roy!

Matthew_Atkinson: User needs fiffer. One example of this is four buttons doing the same thing: saving. The first one is atextual button saying "Save". The seocnd one is a floppy disk icon. The third is a floppy with the word saying "Save". And the fourth is a hand holding an USB drive.

Matthew_Atkinson: We can cater to different needs by doing these kinds of adaptations but we need a bit of semantic information.

<Fazio> I wonder if today's generation knows what a floppy looks like... lol

Matthew_Atkinson: Content-Usable has been discussed several times over TPAC. It's a great document and very helpful.

Matthew_Atkinson: What Personalization is trying to do is finding th esweet spot where just ahint from the author can make us do the fundamental adaptations automatically.

Matthew_Atkinson: What does this mean?

<Fazio> great examples!

Matthew_Atkinson: It is about adaptations. Example: WikiHow on how to make a good cup of tea. With our without symbolic adaptations, reduced distractions and so forth.

<Fazio> I can see corporate pushback when it effects advertising dollars

LisaSeemanKest_: You said "pen drive, USB drive, flash drive", Matt. That is one of the probloems when trying to translate these things into symbols.

Matthew_Atkinson: That's a good thing to bear in mind.

Matthew_Atkinson: We're trying to reach thenext billion users by developing Personalizations. What do we need? We need implementations and review.

Matthew_Atkinson: There are multiple stages to the plan.

<Jemma> I also found that term is specific to culture. I have just learned that tickbox in UK vs checkbo x in US.

Matthew_Atkinson: We have an explainer going over our whole roadmap. 1. Adaptable content (on wide review now, we're seeking implementations an dtechnical review, in particula rform COGA). 2. Adaptable help and support and 3. Adaptable tools.

Matthew_Atkinson: The latter are in need of support. Specifically, we're looking to COGA for feedbac,, support and use cases.

Matthew_Atkinson: It's been years in the making and probably years ahead a swell.

<JF> Explainer here: https://www.w3.org/TR/personalization-semantics-1.0/

<JF> Module 1: https://www.w3.org/TR/personalization-semantics-content-1.0/

Matthew_Atkinson: We aim to make this as easy as possible.

Matthew_Atkinson: If we can show the potential gains for users, we can probably gain support for this speciifcation.

<Jemma> are we referring to landmark, <main>?

Matthew_Atkinson: Another couple of notes on semantics. We're complementing native and/or ARIA semantics.

Matthew_Atkinson: We anticipate many sorts of adaptations, user agents, extenions an dso on.

<JF> Module 2: https://w3c.github.io/personalization-semantics/help/index.html

<JF> Module 3: https://w3c.github.io/personalization-semantics/tools/index.html

Matthew_Atkinson: We've got some markup examples and a demo.

Matthew_Atkinson: Just to show what the whole thing can do.

Matthew_Atkinson: It's about simplifying the user intervace.

Matthew_Atkinson: We also have attributes that wille nable people ot understand the purpose of input controls and remove thigns that are deistracting to them, but I want to concentrate on...

Matthew_Atkinson: The imput one is interesting since we use HTML autocomplete values to handle it.

Matthew_Atkinson: We have an attribute called DATA-SYMBOL at the moment (development name). It allows authors to associate to a concept. The conccpet is borrowed form BLISS, who maintain a list of concepts.

<Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel answers Jemma, yes that is a reference to the landmark, <main>

Matthew_Atkinson: If we ascribe those concepts to elements ofn the page, we can map them into a symbol set the user is using.

<Jennie_> This work is so exciting - looking forward to reviewing these links after this meeting!

Matthew_Atkinson: We would really value COGA's input on this and we're reviewing module 1 at the moment.

stevelee: There is two aspects: content hints. People put something into their content to indicate their streams. The other thign is how to declare what preferences the user has. How are you addressing this, if at all?

Matthew_Atkinson: Feel free to chime in. We're not really considering the UI side of thigns in the spec yet. We don't want to prescribe that it has to be done ian aparticula rway.

janina: Moving something toW3C status means you have to have an impelmementationj. We have to be able to show user agent pieces that implement it and are able to read those undrlying goces and make those results happen. We can't get to recommendation status until we've shown that in two independent and different environments.

JF: We kidn of envision browser extensions and/or third-party tools and/or proxy servers.

JF: I could envision a thirdparty NGO offering the transformation on theirs ervers and offer up a modifiedversion to subscribe dusers.

JF: We want to see what software developers might want to come forward with.

stevelee: The process of mapping user preferences ot what is on offer may not be trivial.

LisaSeemanKest_: That's a thign fo rhte user agents as well.

<Fazio> I'm familiar with most everybody

LisaSeemanKest_: Roll call! Name tags!

LisaSeemanKest_: LIsa Seeman, o-facilitator of COGA.

Roy: Work for W3C China. Team contact for COGA nad Personalization.

becky: Becky Gibson, co-facilitator of APA, almost 20 years in the W3C. Worked on WCA2, ARIA and now APA.

Fazio: Lots of hats in W3C.

JF: John Foliot, in a11y for 15 years, gettin ginto good trouble with the W3C lots.

Judy: Judy Brewer with the WAI. Director. I get to sort issues out. Appreciating comments and prespectives form everyone. Including John.

FredrikFischer: A bit overwhelmed by bht introductions, sorry.

<Jemma> jemma: work for University of Illinois Chicago, co editor of ARIA Authoring Practice Guide.

<Jemma> Jemma: landmark example which include "main"tag in the coga presention is one of popular ARIA APG examples.

LisaSeemanKest_: Thanks everyone for introducing yourselves!

LisaSeemanKest_: We want to help alot!

What and when to review each module

LisaSeemanKest_: COGA wnts to say what they are working on. We're working on an update to Content-Usable including more community feedback and more mental health aspects as well.

Fazio: Emotional images can trigger emotional responses but also bothering emotions. Thsi can prevent users form finding relevant information. This is one thing we're working on.

Lionel_Wolberger: We use the personas form Content-Usable in our work. What you talked aboutk, David, can be used in our module 2 or 3.

<Fazio> question?

Lionel_Wolberger: I'd like to cycle back to one of our interest.

Lionel_Wolberger: We'd really like a commerce site, but anyone who wants to do an implementation would be very welcome.

Fazio: When I hear the term module, I don't know what this really is. Please explain?

Lionel_Wolberger: We divided our very broad aim into three chapters which we called modules. We have three sections to ourspec, named modules.

<Jennie_> * Lionel_Wolberger Is there a link to what organizations would need to do to participation in an implementation?

janina: Module 1 is the bite-size piece we're moving to CR, hopefully all the way to recommendation.

janina: Then we'll take our other modules up.

<LisaSeemanKest_> ackf

Fazio: One synonym might be section.

janina: It's just an appellation, just a name.

LisaSeemanKest_: Thtie first chapter is looking for implementations, and really is a last chance to get things into this spec.

LisaSeemanKest_: There a re some questiosn, like whether they should have a suffix saying the reference numbers are from BLISS for isntance.

LisaSeemanKest_: I think there might be some questiosn like that occuring in Personalization that COGA has the right people to answer.

LisaSeemanKest_: Could Personalization ask us specific questiosn, not just for review, but for psecific topics?

<Matthew_Atkinson> +1 to Fazio's suggestion around triggering content. We have a couple of open issues on this: https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues/88 and https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues/89

LisaSeemanKest_: That would be one of my hoped for outcomes.

<JF> Module 2 = "Help and Support"

LisaSeemanKest_: Module 2: if there's something lie what David is sayign about trauma and triggers, maybe more could be added to that to address David's concern already in module 1, but perhaps also in module 2.

<JF> Module 3 = "Tools"

Lionel_Wolberger: I find that demos and demonstrations and implementatison are very powerful at elliciting the kindfo feedback Lisa is talking about.

<Jemma> +1 to importance of demo by Lionel's point

Lionel_Wolberger: Doing demos might get the best response.

LisaSeemanKest_: I don't think COGA will make lots of demos.

Lionel_Wolberger: We're using COGA personas and models.

janina: The personas function like a demo would. I for instance get the concept of dyscalculia most form the persona which descirbes the situation concretely.

JF: I would like to birnghte abstract into a practical focus. Fazio mentioned images which might trigger anemotional reaction.

<Fazio> yes

JF: Some images might restrict interaction with content.

<Fazio> yes

<Fazio> emotional images versus not

JF: In module 2 we have alternative alternatives. That's an area where we would apreciate specific feedback. Is there a need for distinctions between different types of trigger images? Do we want to be broader?

JF: We might have the beginnigns of a mechanism to address these needs

JF: Attributes with fixed token values is really the key to the larger picture here.

LisaSeemanKest_: I'll suggest two next steps.

<Fazio> emotional images versus not

LisaSeemanKest_: The first next step is inviting Personalization to our COGA call and to get our teeth into the spec as such.

<Jennie_> +1 to more joint meetings.

LisaSeemanKest_: This may become two calls.

LisaSeemanKest_: Another response to John's point is taking a deep dive into modul3 2 and brainstorm about theories, user stories, building personas and so on.

<Matthew_Atkinson> +1 to LisaSeemanKest_'s suggestions as to next steps.

LisaSeemanKest_: You have to know who you are addressing when solving the problem.

LisaSeemanKest_: Does that really address the kinds of steps we may need to work together?

LisaSeemanKest_: Other suggestison are welcome.

Lionel_Wolberger: We find Content-Usable very important to us, but I'll just share my personal experience here.

Lionel_Wolberger: As we put together Personalization and got ready for Candidate review, but we found that personalizationa nd symbols go together, anhd taht's the kind of insight we would want to get from working togetehr with COGA.

<Jennie_> * Apologies, but have to drop for another call. Thank you for having this meeting. Have a good day.

LisaSeemanKest_: This kind of demo may be just a page. Just pictures that we've made up.

<stevelee> suggest make simplification and symbol insertion 2 separate steps

Rain: I think the idea has sort of surfaced from multiple sides of the Personalization TF comign to COGA with specific demos and modules we can work together on.

Rain: It gets around ideas we eoncounter when we try to comunicate through GitHub or through e-mail. It cuts through lots of potential miscommunication.

Rain: I'd like to prospoe an actionaimte for oru next coordination call and find ways to invite the Personalization TF to come in and talk with us.

Rain: Requestin the PTF to look at their schedules and also asking them to ask us into their work and calls when they feel like it.

janina: PTF has an e-mail list, too, where you can communicate, in addition ot the standard general teleconference time.

LisaSeemanKest_: There is also a gerat opportunity with ARIA to pull these three together.

janina: How do we author all of this?

LisaSeemanKest_: We've got next steps here and ways to move forward.

rrsagent make minutes

<Matthew_Atkinson> Great to virtually meet you all and for the motivating discussion :-)

Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by scribe.perl version 136 (Thu May 27 13:50:24 2021 UTC).


Succeeded: s/APG/ARIA APG/

Maybe present: David, Jason, Judy, Lisa, Scott