13:46:55 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18n
13:46:56 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/10/28-i18n-irc
13:47:18 <addison> Meeting: Internationalization WG 2021 TPAC (Thursday, 28 Oct)
13:47:23 <addison> Chair: Addison Phillips
13:47:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/28-i18n-minutes.html addison
13:47:59 <addison> Note: we're meeting with COGA on #coga
13:50:00 <addison> Agendums: https://www.w3.org/wiki/I18N_2021_TPAC
13:53:38 <addison> o	Join link: https://mit.zoom.us/j/676992029?pwd=Y21saTN6V1lla2R1NC9xOG9Ub2VDZz09
13:53:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/28-i18n-minutes.html addison
14:00:01 <r12a> r12a has joined #i18n
14:00:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/28-i18n-minutes.html addison
14:01:06 <JcK_> JcK_ has joined #i18n
14:01:31 <xfq> xfq has joined #i18n
14:05:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/28-i18n-minutes.html addison
14:07:57 <JcK_> I am apparently not sufficiently important and/or registered to get in on the COGA channel.  See you next week
14:10:35 <JcK_> Tried to follow the email instructions and log in via some TPAC channel.  Not letting me in.  If there is a direct Zoom link, I'm happy to try, but also just noticed that I can't immediately get to the slides (organizers don't know my Google account and I'm reluctant to tie it to general W3c business)
14:13:04 <addison> try Join link: https://mit.zoom.us/j/676992029?pwd=Y21saTN6V1lla2R1NC9xOG9Ub2VDZz09
14:16:06 <JcK_> Got it.  Thx.
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14:46:37 <MURATA_> MURATA_ has joined #i18n
14:46:48 <MURATA_> present+
14:47:54 <plh> plh has joined #i18n
15:00:47 <addison> COGA minutes are at: https://www.w3.org/2021/10/28-coga-minutes.html
15:01:10 <MURATA_> Should I join a different Zoom conference?
15:01:19 <addison> addison has joined #i18n
15:01:20 <atsushi> i18n's one
15:02:04 <xfq> xfq has joined #i18n
15:02:13 <MURATA_> I am afraid that I cannot find the link for the zoom teleconf
15:04:04 <MURATA_> by mail?
15:05:22 <MURATA_> Thanks!
15:05:41 <JcK_> Richard, no trouble hearing you... but...
15:07:19 <atsushi> scribe: atsushi
15:07:22 <JcK_> I didn't get the message about this session being shifted and will have to drop off in about 5 minutes
15:08:05 <atsushi> topic: agenda review
15:08:08 <fantasai> fantasai has joined #i18n
15:08:13 <JcK_> present+
15:08:19 <fantasai> present+
15:08:21 <atsushi> [no objection from call]
15:08:21 <addison> Topic: Ruby
15:08:26 <atsushi> topic: ruby a11y
15:08:38 <atsushi> [self introduction from Murata Makoto]
15:09:15 <atsushi> murata: I gave a talk at APAWG on ruby related roles, and will be explained later here
15:09:21 <MURATA_> https://github.com/Japan-Daisy-Consortium/documents/wiki/Text-to-Speech-of-Electronic-Documents-Containing-Ruby:-User-Requirements
15:09:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/28-i18n-minutes.html addison
15:09:41 <atsushi> murata: hope to create a WG Note based on above wiki page contents
15:09:55 <atsushi> ... and hope to be a joint of A11y and i18n WGs
15:10:12 <atsushi> murata: let me demonstrate insteresting examples on ruby T2S
15:10:23 <atsushi> ... how harmful double reading is
15:10:55 <atsushi> ... double reading means to T2S both base and ruby annotation, sometimes that make reading totally incorrect
15:11:22 <xfq> present+
15:11:26 <atsushi> present+
15:11:45 <atsushi> ... so, double reading is quite dangerous
15:11:56 <atsushi> ... but for some ruby used for non phonetics, but as annotation
15:12:04 <atsushi> ... slide p3
15:12:47 <atsushi> ... for these cases, double reading is the most appropriate
15:13:06 <atsushi> ... on that point, we need to be possible to specify whether phonetics or annotation
15:13:15 <atsushi> ... slide p4
15:13:35 <atsushi> ... another example why reading phonetic ruby can be dangerous
15:15:00 <atsushi> ... these examples are very carefully selected, although
15:15:39 <atsushi> ... ruby is in Kana characters, sometimes will cause additional issue, like Ha and Wa
15:16:19 <atsushi> murata: there are many issues on T2S of ruby, so I would want to publish a WG Note on this point
15:16:23 <r12a> q+
15:16:30 <addison> ack r
15:16:54 <atsushi> r12a: looking at wiki page, have two things I don't really know
15:17:04 <atsushi> ... one is how to publish as a joint WG Note
15:17:18 <plh> q+
15:17:26 <atsushi> ... you want to wait movement of a11y along with i18n movement
15:18:06 <atsushi> ... if it doesn't provide explicit instructions on handling on ruby T2S, it doesn't work
15:18:19 <atsushi> murata: working on another companion document on this point
15:18:30 <atsushi> ... but not sure how to finish that document
15:18:36 <addison> q+
15:19:05 <atsushi> ... on a11y tools, engines, etc., toolchain is complecated
15:19:16 <addison> ack p
15:19:44 <atsushi> plh: Murata is not a part of groups? need to join.
15:19:53 <atsushi> ... it is a Note, not rec-track matter
15:20:25 <atsushi> ... if this document will move to rec-track later, issue need to raise, although
15:21:11 <atsushi> addison: if we are to have a joint publication, one WG should host or?
15:21:36 <atsushi> r12a: a bit more background, this is coming from JL-TF under IG, like simple-ruby, which is published through i18n wG
15:21:40 <atsushi> s/wG/WG/
15:22:15 <atsushi> plh: owner ship transfer is fine if both groups agree
15:22:35 <atsushi> ... if one group owns the documentation, that group need to issue CfC
15:22:59 <atsushi> ... would not change anything on publication process
15:23:15 <r12a> q+
15:23:22 <r12a> ack r
15:23:25 <r12a> qq+
15:23:33 <atsushi> fantasai: need to involve a11y groups to get attention
15:24:08 <atsushi> ... it would be difficult to get attention from them, where they don't have an experties on that area
15:24:27 <atsushi> ... but, formal approval need to go through both groups
15:24:28 <addison> ack r
15:24:28 <Zakim> r12a, you wanted to react to r12a
15:24:43 <fantasai> i18n has the expertise to support the editor
15:24:55 <atsushi> r12a: document has currently use in i18n area, and having a related document within us
15:25:06 <fantasai> but a11y needs to be involved, because this requires changes to a lot of things, from specs to OS APIs
15:25:13 <addison> ack f
15:25:17 <fantasai> having it a joint publication means a11y needs to pay attention
15:25:52 <atsushi> fantasai: need to have a consensus on whether rec-track
15:26:31 <atsushi> ... several items need to be considered on ruby T2S, like how T2S handles ruby or markup
15:26:56 <atsushi> ... also we need update on html
15:27:42 <addison> q-
15:27:52 <atsushi> r12a: question in my mind, bidi document is in similar situation
15:27:57 <fantasai> s/need to have a consensus on whether/this document would not ever become/
15:28:15 <atsushi> ... i18n WG raised issue on that document to external groups
15:28:21 <addison> (for reference: https://www.w3.org/TR/html-bidi/)
15:28:34 <atsushi> ... to Makoto, is it ok to publish as i18n WG Note, or still want to involve a11y
15:28:49 <atsushi> murata: no strong opiniton, but want to get attention from a11y colleagues
15:28:51 <fantasai> s/also we need update on html/this document would serves similar role as JLREQ or Aharon's bidi problems in HTML document, explaining the problems but not inventing solutions
15:29:03 <atsushi> ... I've gate a talk about my proposal of two ARIA roles on ruby
15:29:24 <atsushi> ... for first role, it was pointed to be submitted to whatwg
15:29:48 <atsushi> ... for second one, one points to agree with ARIA role, but some points to be as whatwg attribute
15:30:04 <fantasai> i/r12a: question/fantasai: the NOTE would open up the problem space and explain it, and other REC-track documents would be written informed by this NOTE/
15:30:28 <atsushi> addison: we have a tracking issue for Whatwg repositories, and label your one with that after adding issue
15:30:30 <plh> q+
15:30:40 <atsushi> r12a: should we add, or HTML WG?
15:31:03 <atsushi> fantasai: it is also for ruby element?
15:31:17 <atsushi> plh: WICG is an option
15:31:37 <atsushi> ... they incubate new items in html, and some will be brought
15:32:02 <fantasai> s/it is also for ruby element?/need to resolve question of whether ruby is being specced in WHATWG or W3C first/
15:32:23 <atsushi> ... advantage over ARIA is a support by browsers and tools
15:32:58 <atsushi> addison: what is next step?
15:33:05 <atsushi> ... currently don't have a document
15:33:14 <atsushi> ... do you have a sense when document will come?
15:33:30 <atsushi> murata: hope to create an html document by respec, once repository is available
15:33:54 <atsushi> r12a: where do we create was in discussion, in jlreq could be easy
15:34:09 <atsushi> ... if we want to have as a joint document, we may need to consider
15:34:33 <atsushi> plh: when creating new repositories, consider who to own
15:34:48 <atsushi> addison: I will create, but also we need to ask a11y to be interaction
15:34:51 <atsushi> murata: ARIA and APA
15:35:05 <atsushi> fantasai: ARIA is not an WG?
15:35:06 <addison> s/I will create/If we create/
15:36:14 <fantasai> s/ARIA is not an WG?/ARIA is more about defining aria roles, right? But this is a use cases document, not defining aria roles/
15:36:14 <atsushi> [please correct here...]
15:36:52 <atsushi> addison: murata-san, already have discussion with a11y, do they surpirise if we ask them on this?
15:37:05 <atsushi> murata: I've already talked with a11y, and they should know
15:37:12 <atsushi> ... they are not @@1
15:37:24 <fantasai> s/@@1/not yet enthusiastic/
15:37:24 <xfq> s/[please correct here...]/What we document is not a solution. Although it may be related to ARIA, it is mainly an a11y use case./
15:37:26 <atsushi> addison: measn they don't want to work on this or?
15:37:37 <addison> action: addison: reach out to APA about potential joint publication of T2S ruby requirements with I18N
15:37:38 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1090 - Reach out to apa about potential joint publication of t2s ruby requirements with i18n [on Addison Phillips - due 2021-11-04].
15:37:43 <atsushi> murata: seems not understanded yet
15:37:51 <xfq> s/a solution/a technical solution/
15:37:53 <atsushi> addison: will start conversation with them
15:38:22 <addison> action: atsushi: create repo for ruby t2s doc
15:38:22 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1091 - Create repo for ruby t2s doc [on Atsushi Shimono - due 2021-11-04].
15:38:27 <atsushi> r12a: will create repo, and review doucment carefully and send feedback to Murata
15:38:29 <atsushi> -san
15:38:58 <atsushi> topic: self introduction from Maud Stiernet
15:39:34 <atsushi> maud: coming from AIRA, florian coming and Richard also, and we discussed on children about writing in EU and US
15:40:13 <atsushi> ... how children literecy problem could be helped,
15:40:44 <atsushi> ... it's very interesting if you really work on the concept
15:41:00 <fantasai> s/EU and US/EU and US, and Florian talked also about ruby use in Japan/
15:41:15 <atsushi> r12a: is a standalone group or a11y group?
15:41:33 <atsushi> maud: one community, as task force, we are going to present to several task forces
15:41:46 <atsushi> addison: formal community group or group of individuals?
15:42:09 <atsushi> maud: in wiki page, there is agenda, notes, but still as a community of individuals
15:42:20 <atsushi> ... as CG
15:43:02 <addison> https://www.w3.org/community/accessibility4children/
15:43:08 <atsushi> murata: children rely on ruby
15:43:26 <atsushi> maud: there is one another item to add
15:44:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/28-i18n-minutes.html addison
15:44:31 <atsushi> ... whether there is questions on children, and who/how to contact people. if any information is available
15:44:47 <fantasai> [discussion on adding to self-review checklist]
15:44:51 <atsushi> r12a: for horizontal review, adding an issue is the best way
15:46:00 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev
15:46:13 <atsushi> r12a: there are more than one checklist
15:46:31 <atsushi> ... there is different sort of things, like for html or css
15:46:48 <atsushi> maud: list for developers
15:46:51 <r12a> https://www.w3.org/TR/international-specs/
15:47:24 <Maud_> Maud_ has joined #i18n
15:47:31 <r12a> https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/issues
15:49:08 <atsushi> r12a: like for arabic, children is a bit difficult to read them
15:50:00 <atsushi> maud: we are working for other various areas, including visual queues
15:50:15 <atsushi> r12a: if you have writting things down, we can review the documentation
15:50:39 <atsushi> maud: we have some list of requirements for now
15:50:56 <atsushi> addision: one suggestion to bring us before you finish ones
15:51:02 <atsushi> ... during a development phase
15:52:04 <atsushi> topic: AOB?
15:52:24 <atsushi> xfq: if no, I would like to discuss of character restriction in EPUB
15:52:25 <xfq> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1430
15:52:35 <atsushi> topic: character restriction in EPUB
15:52:56 <atsushi> xfq: we discussed this few days ago, and files draft here
15:53:16 <atsushi> ... EPUB is restricting filenames to reject emojis etc.
15:53:25 <atsushi> ... ok to send this issue to EPUB?
15:53:26 <MURATA_> +q
15:53:36 <plh> q-
15:53:42 <atsushi> addison: seems good to me
15:53:48 <plh> ack MURATA_
15:53:59 <atsushi> murata: is there any use case?
15:54:19 <atsushi> addison: if author use it in title, tag could contain
15:54:33 <atsushi> ... people could do anything
15:54:51 <atsushi> ... question is that is this artificial restriction or just don't want to use these characters?
15:55:00 <r12a> q+
15:55:21 <MURATA_> q+
15:55:29 <atsushi> xfq: if filesystem allows these characters, there is no reason to restrict these
15:55:51 <atsushi> addison: if there is any restriction on some filesystem, but I think no
15:56:13 <atsushi> r12a: it seems to be placed ago, and kept left there
15:56:36 <atsushi> murata: apple applies normalization, and see different result due to normalization
15:56:44 <atsushi> ... this could avoid some problem
15:57:20 <atsushi> addison: not case for this? some could work differently for non characters etc.
15:58:05 <atsushi> murata: long time ago, Martin wrote a document of interactions between html and unicode codepoint, still valid document?
15:58:09 <atsushi> r12a: no
15:59:11 <atsushi> [agreed to send as review issue]
15:59:28 <atsushi> topic: from CSS MTG
15:59:36 <atsushi> r12a: two things
15:59:57 <atsushi> ... emoji properties, discussion held and some progrees there
16:00:13 <atsushi> ... generic font name, seems some progress after call
16:00:25 <atsushi> ... for third point, no time yesterday, and would join sometime later
16:01:23 <atsushi> addison: maybe we can close some issues
16:01:43 <xfq> rrsagent, make minutes
16:01:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/28-i18n-minutes.html xfq
16:18:01 <r12a> s/emoji properties,/logical properties,/
16:29:18 <r12a> s/AIRA/ARIA/
16:30:02 <r12a> s/florian coming and Richard also/Florian and Richard attended a session with us last week/
16:31:54 <r12a> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:31:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/28-i18n-minutes.html r12a
16:33:43 <r12a> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:33:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/28-i18n-minutes.html r12a
23:59:59 <scribe> s/Note: we're meeting with COGA on #coga//
23:59:59 <scribe> s|o	Join link: https://mit.zoom.us/j/676992029?pwd=Y21saTN6V1lla2R1NC9xOG9Ub2VDZz09||
23:59:59 <scribe> s/Agendums: /agenda: /
23:59:59 <scribe> s|I am apparently not sufficiently important and/or registered to get in on the COGA channel.  See you next week||
23:59:59 <scribe> s/Tried to follow the email instructions and log in via some TPAC channel.  Not letting me in.  If there is a direct Zoom link, I'm happy to try, but also just noticed that I can't immediately get to the slides (organizers don't know my Google account and I'm reluctant to tie it to general W3c business)//
23:59:59 <scribe> present+ addison, maud, plh, r12a
23:59:59 <scribe> s|try Join link: https://mit.zoom.us/j/676992029?pwd=Y21saTN6V1lla2R1NC9xOG9Ub2VDZz09||
23:59:59 <scribe> s/Got it.  Thx.//
23:59:59 <scribe> s/Should I join a different Zoom conference?//
23:59:59 <scribe> s/i18n's one//
23:59:59 <scribe> s/I am afraid that I cannot find the link for the zoom teleconf//
23:59:59 <scribe> s/by mail?//
23:59:59 <scribe> s/Thanks!//
23:59:59 <scribe> s/Richard, no trouble hearing you... but...//
23:59:59 <scribe> s/I didn't get the message about this session being shifted and will have to drop off in about 5 minutes//
23:59:59 <scribe> s/Topic: Ruby//
23:59:59 <scribe> s/addision/addison/