Meeting minutes
<addison> trackbot, prepare teleconference
<addison> scribenick David
Atsushi: Did we sorto out TPAC plans
Agenda Review
Action Items
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<addison> action-1039?
<trackbot> action-1039: Addison Phillips to Propose pr for https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/4814 -- due 2021-07-01 -- OPEN
Adison: 1039 Taken over for PR 4814 Stillo under discussion. On Agenda later.
<addison> action-1060?
<trackbot> action-1060: Atsushi Shimono to Follow up on citpc/jltf request to utc about 4 characters and bring doc for review by wg when ready -- due 2021-08-26 -- OPEN
<addison> close action-1060
<trackbot> Closed action-1060.
<addison> action-1061?
<trackbot> action-1061: Richard Ishida to Remove encoding tests and put a link to wpt tests -- due 2021-08-26 -- OPEN
Atsushi: sent emails to various parties. No upate on text from Zen
Addison: 1063 in progress, leave open
R12a: 1066 not done yet
Addison: 1067 in progress
<addison> action-1068?
<trackbot> action-1068: Addison Phillips to Put "foot in the door" for tpac and survey group for days/times -- due 2021-09-02 -- OPEN
<addison> close action-1068
<trackbot> Closed action-1068.
<addison> action-1069?
<trackbot> action-1069: Addison Phillips to Ping chairs for tpac cross meetings -- due 2021-09-02 -- OPEN
Addison: 1068 Done - TPAC started
<addison> close action-1069
<trackbot> Closed action-1069.
Addison: 1069 pinged chairs for meetings
Info Share
R12a: Received a nomination from Glocal to join working group
<r12a> https://
RADAR Review
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addison: 1 new3 incoming glanced at by r12a regarding CSS scroll bars
Atsushi: agree with r12a
Action: addison: reply to CSS about scrollbars
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1070 - Reply to css about scrollbars [on Addison Phillips - due 2021-09-09].
addison: shal we move to done and inform CSS WG, and thank them for not causing I18n issues.
addison: HTML draft - on Agenda later. NO reason to hold them back. Then reply with completed review.
UAX50 change request to UTC from JLReq TF
addison: UAX50 Do we need to discuss?
r12a: Short summary useful
r12a had a response from Kida-san . They wish to change character properties for some in vertical text. Wrote to ???. Onl y concern that W3C should have a mention.
r12a: Can we publish it as a joint document? What does that mean?
r12a: Naming w3C as a source doesn't seem like a problem.
addison: Who would we reply to?
r12a: it is only a change proposal for unicode.
addison: no objection to it coming from us or them.
addison: What value does the CITPC (Coded character-sets Information Technology Promotion Council) add?
r12a: Having both orgs would be useful for the Japanese market
atsushi: CITPC has many companies as members, so this could be a Japanese side issue.
r12a: Kida-San thinks it would be good to be formally reviewed and also by the CLReq people.
Action: richard: send UAX50 change request document for review by WG
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1071 - Send uax50 change request document for review by wg [on Richard Ishida - due 2021-09-09].
r12a: everyone look at it when I send it, please.
xfq: has discussed some changes in this request. e.g. full width semi-colon. Main difference is fallback in simplified Chinese
xfq: This mainly a problem of mapping to the Adobe Japan character collection. People generally agree with the changes, but this in not the final draft.
xfq: will share the final draft. This hasn't been shared with JLReq
addison: it would be good if it is shared.
atsushi: We need to look at conflict between Chinese and Japanese
Action: xfq: send feedback from clreq to jlreq on UAX50 proposed changes
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1072 - Send feedback from clreq to jlreq on uax50 proposed changes [on Fuqiao Xue - due 2021-09-09].
r12a: Postioning it as a W3C and CITPC, can Atsushi take the lead?
atsushi: I will, but may need some assistance
Action: atsushi: coordinate CITPC and W3C publication of UAX50 change request
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1073 - Coordinate citpc and w3c publication of uax50 change request [on Atsushi Shimono - due 2021-09-09].
jck: If these are going in as comment notes. Why not both submit their own comments and say that they have noted the other ones?
addison: 1 formal request is needed. Whoever sends it, if we are sending, then we need to approve it.
addison: There is strength to a Japanese org sending it. UTC will look at the factual arguments, whatever the source.
jck: Agrees strongly
r12a: Head of CITPC is also prominent on JLReq
addison: Anthing more on this issue?
HTML snapshot review
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addison: before TPAC talk about HTML Snapshot review
addison: this is the regular snapshot. It has 3 I18n related issues. The look fine but others may have comments.
addison: any thoughts
jck: anything where there are BOM sniffing does worry me.
addison: This does sniff the BOM.
addison: Any objections?
addison: no
<r12a> no objection
TPAC
<xfq> https://
addison: For TPAC note sent to chairs saying we are avaailable, in particular Tuesday of that week.
addison: That's the extent, so far. Time or day could be moved.
addison: There were several invitations including from CSS, Accesibility. We can schedule the meetings
r12a: Personalisation would like a meeting some time, TPAC is a long way off. We are blocking them.
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addison: TPAC call, are there different preferences for how it should be set up?
addison: 26th October is my initial date.
addison: Tuesday
r12a: Good for me. CSS was asking for us to join their meeting on Wednesday.
addison: Time not set for our sessions.
addison: allow for several hours, depending on topics.
r12a: 2 hours would be good. We should schedule another on Thursday for 2 hours
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addison: Do we need to meet with A11y and consider the issues first, particularly pictures as alternatives for words.
r12a: They aim to BLISS symbol numbers represent a concept but glyphs can be changed
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addison: Fine for replace a noun with a picture of a noun, some verbs are reasonably replaceable. Can you define a grammar for compositional elements.
r12a: only simple examples of composition given.
addison: grammar and directionality are not addressed.
addison: There was a working video at a TPAC several years ago. I'm still unclear about it. Was it too simplistic?
addison: They were doing it with a Bidi language.
<r12a> [[
<r12a> Also, we have added a Hebrew example for symbols illustrating how to form a
<r12a> conjugated term (see
<r12a> ).
<r12a> ]]
addison: People working on this are not linguists so may miss linguistic issues.
addison: When do the want to meet?
r12a: initially thought Mondays but then Tuesday was mentioned.
r12a: dates suggested were last month
r12a: 10am Boston so 14:00 UTC
addison: r12a, shall we go?
r12a: yes
addison: to respond to them.
Action: addison: respond to personalization-semantics that we can meet the 13th at 1400Z
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1074 - Respond to personalization-semantics that we can meet the 13th at 1400z [on Addison Phillips - due 2021-09-09].
addison: CSS would like us to see them. Shall we negotiate a time?
r12a: They suggested a time
addison: Wed 27th 16:00 UTC
r12a: works for me
addison: and me
addison: does anyone else want to join us?
Action: addison: respond to CSS confirm 27 Oct at 1600Z for TPAC crossover meeting
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1075 - Respond to css confirm 27 oct at 1600z for tpac crossover meeting [on Addison Phillips - due 2021-09-09].
r12a: we need a list in advance of talking points. Both what we want and what they care about.
addison: r12a has an action to review CSS text decoration
addison: who wants to review CSS open issues?
r12a: we all should
r12a: Who do we contact for CSS open issues
r12a: we need to slect the most important
Action: xfq: review CSS open issues for important items to resolve in TPAC
xfq: I'll look
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1076 - Review css open issues for important items to resolve in tpac [on Fuqiao Xue - due 2021-09-09].
addison: Webauthn needs more discussion, as we didn't finish last week
HTML 4814
r12a: HTML 4814
<addison> https://
<addison> https://
addison: I have a pull request against it
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addison: discussion of wording at the bottom
r12a: You added "language appropriate case folding". Did you mean case conversion?
r12a: I don't think there is a difference by language?
addison: What about a string search that is language sensitive.
r12a: there are some features like ignoring accents. The thrust is you need to normalise and case fold
addison: In turkish you would lose linguistic information with a more promiscuous match.
addison: Language appropriate case folding could map by language.
addison: This is the purpose of CharMod, hence needing a document on searching strings and implementitions.
r12a: We are mathching user input against a values. Is this string matching or string searching. i.e do you want to know if 2 strings match.
addison: values should be filtered by substrings in the list. Then there are different to types of mathching e.g. accents kana/kana matching
addison: we are adding "beware of the complexity of searching".
addison: One working group in the past was working on Find. We poitned out many issues, unless it is purely string matching (maybe case insensitive).
r12a: complexity could come with an esset for example.
jck: this could be entering dangerous territory, whether ours or HTML's
r12a: We go for a permissive approach
jck: This could cause problems
jck: This was what early Unicode talked about string mathching after folding.
addison: User interaction will provide ???
r12a: I've added custom smarter matched to Uniview
jck: that's a different matter to case folding
r12a: if you type in Benin, with an e acute, should that match the ASCII Benin
jck: forcing to ASCII is unreasonable
r12a: more likely the other way around
r12a: case folding is not a good place to start for string mathching
addison: for tokens it is fine
addison: that is the responsibilty of CharModNorm
jck: even for identifiers there are issue with case sensitive environments.
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r12a: maybe case folding doesn't belong in this HTML spec
addison: In a find command, there is normally an option to be case insensitive, or not. But you might need to be language sensitive manner.
r12a: This is case mapping. You do the language tailoring for here.
addison: string search doc in the link above. It was moved out of Charmod to keep for later. This is an example of it is really hard to describe than it looks. We need to write clearer specs, so we can identify the problems.
jck: Clearer explanation of ??? would be very helpful.
addison: Original intent was to warn of the complexities.
r12a: does not think the Charmod Reference is useful.
r12a: We need a searching document to point people at. Following this discussion this is about case matching not case folding. We don't want them to case fold.
addison: It would be reasonable to have a case insensitve search, but warn of the challenges.
r12a: that's case mapping, not case folding
addison: it is case matching or caseless matching that we are interested in.
addison: Shall I remove the sentence about normalisation and case folding?
r12a: normalisation is important, but I think we should tale out case folding.
r12a: We may need to mention case equivalence
addison: I'll edit again for that.
r12a: I will review later