13:44:39 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18n
13:44:39 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/09/02-i18n-irc
13:44:46 <addison> trackbot, prepare teleconference
13:44:49 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:44:52 <trackbot> Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
13:44:52 <trackbot> Date: 02 September 2021
13:45:03 <agendabot> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2021Aug/0018.html
13:45:03 <agendabot> clear agenda
13:45:03 <agendabot> agenda+ Agenda Review
13:45:03 <agendabot> agenda+ Action Items
13:45:04 <agendabot> agenda+ Info Share
13:45:06 <agendabot> agenda+ RADAR Review
13:45:08 <agendabot> agenda+ HTML snapshot review
13:45:09 <addison> Chair: Addison Phillips
13:45:10 <agendabot> agenda+ webAuthn proposal
13:45:13 <agendabot> agenda+ HTML 4814
13:45:15 <agendabot> agenda+ "Awaiting Comment Resolution" reviews
13:45:15 <addison> regrets+ Felix, JcK
13:45:18 <agendabot> agenda+ AOB?
13:45:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/02-i18n-minutes.html addison
13:52:33 <xfq> xfq has joined #i18n
13:54:39 <addison> present+ Addison, Fuqiao
13:57:47 <addison> agenda+ UAX50 change request to UTC from JLReq TF
14:00:20 <addison> present+ Atsushi
14:02:08 <David> David has joined #I18n
14:03:01 <addison> present+ David, Richard
14:03:30 <JcK> JcK has joined #i18n
14:04:45 <addison> regrets- JcK
14:04:50 <addison> present+ JcK
14:06:37 <addison> scribenick David
14:06:40 <addison> agenda?
14:07:15 <addison> agenda+ TPAC
14:07:29 <David> Atsushi: Did we sorto out TPAC plans
14:07:38 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 1
14:07:38 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:07:44 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 2
14:07:44 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:07:52 <addison> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open
14:08:17 <addison> action-1039?
14:08:17 <trackbot> action-1039 -- Addison Phillips to Propose pr for https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/4814 -- due 2021-07-01 -- OPEN
14:08:17 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1039
14:08:52 <David> Adison: 1039 Taken over for PR 4814 Stillo under discussion. On Agenda later.
14:09:33 <addison> action-1060?
14:09:33 <trackbot> action-1060 -- Atsushi Shimono to Follow up on citpc/jltf request to utc about 4 characters and bring doc for review by wg when ready -- due 2021-08-26 -- OPEN
14:09:33 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1060
14:09:38 <addison> close action-1060
14:09:38 <trackbot> Closed action-1060.
14:10:14 <addison> action-1061?
14:10:14 <trackbot> action-1061 -- Richard Ishida to Remove encoding tests and put a link to wpt tests -- due 2021-08-26 -- OPEN
14:10:14 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1061
14:10:14 <David> Atsushi: sent emails to various parties. No upate on text from Zen
14:10:54 <David> Addison: 1063 in progress, leave open
14:11:18 <David> R12a: 1066 not done yet
14:11:40 <David> Addison: 1067 in progress
14:11:46 <addison> action-1068?
14:11:46 <trackbot> action-1068 -- Addison Phillips to Put "foot in the door" for tpac and survey group for days/times -- due 2021-09-02 -- OPEN
14:11:46 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1068
14:11:52 <addison> close action-1068
14:11:52 <trackbot> Closed action-1068.
14:11:56 <addison> action-1069?
14:11:56 <trackbot> action-1069 -- Addison Phillips to Ping chairs for tpac cross meetings -- due 2021-09-02 -- OPEN
14:11:56 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1069
14:11:58 <David> Addison: 1068 Done - TPAC started
14:12:06 <addison> close action-1069
14:12:07 <trackbot> Closed action-1069.
14:12:11 <David> Addison: 1069 pinged chairs for meetings
14:12:16 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 3
14:12:16 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:12:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/02-i18n-minutes.html addison
14:12:59 <David> R12a: Received a nomination from to join working group
14:13:11 <r12a> https://www.glocalqs.com/en/ Fátima Bana
14:13:18 <addison> s/from to/from Glocal to/
14:13:56 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 4
14:13:56 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- RADAR Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:14:05 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1
14:14:39 <David> addison: 1 new3 incoming glanced at by r12a regarding CSS scroll bars
14:15:02 <David> Atsushi: agree with r12a
14:15:45 <addison> action: addison: reply to CSS about scrollbars
14:15:45 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1070 - Reply to css about scrollbars [on Addison Phillips - due 2021-09-09].
14:15:52 <David> addison: shal we move to done and inform CSS WG, and thank them for not causing I18n issues.
14:16:26 <David> addison: HTML draft - on Agenda later. NO reason to hold them back. Then reply with completed review.
14:16:30 <addison> agenda?
14:17:12 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 10
14:17:12 <Zakim> agendum 10 -- UAX50 change request to UTC from JLReq TF -- taken up [from addison]
14:17:12 <David> addison: UAX50 Do we need to discuss?
14:17:23 <David> r12a: Short summary useful
14:18:25 <David> r12a had a response from ??? . They wish to change character properties for some in vertical text. Wrote to ???. Onl y concern that W3C should have a mention.
14:18:51 <addison> s/???/Kida-san/
14:18:53 <David> r12a: Can we publish it as a joint document? What does that mean?
14:19:21 <David> r12a: Naming w3C as a source doesn't seem  like a problem.
14:19:35 <David> addison: Who would we reply to?
14:19:59 <David> r12a: it is only a change proposal for unicode.
14:20:14 <David> addison: no objection to it coming from us or them.
14:20:28 <David> addison: What value does the CITC add?
14:21:00 <David> r12a: Having both orgs would be useful for the Japanese market
14:21:27 <xfq> s/CITC/CITPC (Coded character-sets Information Technology Promotion Council)/
14:21:33 <David> atsushi: CITPC has many companies as members, so this could be a Japanese side issue.
14:22:29 <David> r12a: Kida-San thinks it would be good to be formally reviewed and also by the CLReq people.
14:22:45 <addison> action: richard: send UAX50 change request document for review by WG
14:22:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1071 - Send uax50 change request document for review by wg [on Richard Ishida - due 2021-09-09].
14:22:53 <David> r12a: everyone look at it when I send it, please.
14:23:54 <David> xfq: has discussed some changes in this request. e.g. full width semi-colon. Main difference is fallback in simplified Chinese
14:24:42 <David> xfq: This mainly a problem of mapping to the Adobe Japan character collection. People generally agree with the changes, but this in not the final draft.
14:25:08 <David> xfq: will share the final draft. This hasn't been shared with JLReq
14:25:27 <David> addison: it would be good if it is shared.
14:25:42 <r12a> https://github.com/CITPCSHARE/UAX50/wiki/Request-to-revise-UAX-50-for-the-harmonization-with-Adobe-Japan1
14:26:03 <David> atsushi: We need to look  at conflict between Chinese and Japanese
14:26:17 <addison> action: xfq: send feedback from clreq to jlreq on UAX50 proposed changes
14:26:17 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1072 - Send feedback from clreq to jlreq on uax50 proposed changes [on Fuqiao Xue - due 2021-09-09].
14:26:58 <David> r12a: Postioning it as a W3C and CITPC, can Atsushi take the lead?
14:27:17 <David> atsushi: I will, but may need some assistance
14:27:34 <addison> action: atsushi: coordinate CITPC and W3C publication of UAX50 change request
14:27:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1073 - Coordinate citpc and w3c publication of uax50 change request [on Atsushi Shimono - due 2021-09-09].
14:28:27 <David> jck: If these are going in as comment notes. Why not both submit their own comments and say that they have noted the other ones?
14:29:06 <David> addison: 1 formal request is needed. Whoever sends it, if we are sending, then we need to approve it.
14:29:45 <David> addison: There is strength to a Japanese org sending it. UTC will look at the factual arguments, whatever the source.
14:30:01 <David> jck: Agrees strongly
14:30:36 <David> r12a: Head of CITPC is also prominent on JLReq
14:30:47 <addison> agenda?
14:30:53 <David> addison: Anthing more on this issue?
14:31:08 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 5
14:31:08 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- HTML snapshot review -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:31:20 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/htmlwg/issues/17
14:31:28 <David> addison: before TPAC talk about HTML Snapshot review
14:32:11 <David> addison: this is the regular snapshot. It has 3 I18n related issues. The look fine but others may have comments.
14:33:11 <David> addison: any thoughts
14:33:40 <David> jck: anything where there are ??? stuffing does worry me.
14:34:18 <David> addison: This does sniff the BOM.
14:34:36 <r12a> s/??? stuffing/BOM sniffing/
14:34:36 <David> addison: Any objections?
14:34:39 <addison> agenda?
14:34:46 <David> addison: no
14:34:52 <r12a> no objection
14:34:53 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 11
14:34:53 <Zakim> agendum 11 -- TPAC -- taken up [from addison]
14:35:02 <xfq> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2021/GroupMeetings
14:35:27 <David> addison: For TPAC note sent to chairs saying we are avaailable, in particular Tuesday of that week.
14:35:52 <David> addison: That's the extent, so far. Time or day could be  moved.
14:36:43 <David> addison: There were several invitations including from CSS, Accesibility. We can schedule the meetings
14:37:11 <David> r12a: Personalisation would like a meeting some time, TPAC is a long way off. We are blocking them.
14:37:40 <addison> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2021/GroupMeetings
14:37:44 <David> addison: TPAC call, are there different preferences for how it should be set up?
14:38:04 <David> addison: 26th October is my initial date.
14:38:22 <David> addison: Tuesday
14:39:12 <David> r12a: Good for me. CSS was asking for us to join their meeting on Wednesday.
14:39:56 <David> addison: Time not set for our sessions.
14:40:38 <David> addison: allow for several hours, depending on topics.
14:41:09 <David> r12a: 2 hours would be good. We should schedule another on Thursday for 2 hours
14:41:58 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues/144
14:42:13 <David> addison: Do we need to meet with A11y and consider the issues first, particularly pictures as alternatives for words.
14:42:53 <David> r12a: They aim to BLISS symbol numbers represent a concept but glyphs can be changed
14:43:46 <r12a> https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues/144
14:43:54 <David> addison: Fine for replace a noun with a picture of a noun, some verbs are reasonably replaceable. Can you define a grammar for compositional elements.
14:44:17 <David> r12a: only simple examples of composition given.
14:44:34 <David> addison: grammar and directionality are not addressed.
14:45:15 <David> addison: There was a working video at a TPAC several years ago. I'm still unclear about it. Was it too simplistic?
14:45:32 <David> addison: They were doing it with a Bidi language.
14:45:53 <r12a> [[
14:45:57 <r12a> Also, we have added a Hebrew example for symbols illustrating how to form a
14:45:58 <r12a> conjugated term (see
14:45:58 <r12a> https://raw.githack.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/edits07062020/content/index.html#symbol-explanation
14:45:59 <r12a> ).
14:46:01 <r12a> ]]
14:46:20 <David> addison: People working on this are not linguists so may miss linguistic issues.
14:46:55 <David> addison: When do the want to meet?
14:47:24 <David> r12a: initially thought Mondays but then Tuesday was mentioned.
14:48:11 <David> r12a: dates suggested were last month
14:48:36 <David> r12a: 10am Boston so 14:00 UTC
14:48:48 <David> addison: r12a, shall we go?
14:48:57 <David> r12a: yes
14:49:12 <David> addison: to respond to them.
14:49:18 <addison> action: addison: respond to personalization-semantics that we can meet the 13th at 1400Z
14:49:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1074 - Respond to personalization-semantics that we can meet the 13th at 1400z [on Addison Phillips - due 2021-09-09].
14:50:14 <David> addison: CSS would like us to see them. Shall we negotiate a time?
14:50:28 <David> r12a: They suggested a time
14:50:42 <David> addison: Wed 27th 16:00 UTC
14:51:06 <David> r12a: works for me
14:51:19 <David> addison: and me
14:51:50 <David> addison: does anyone else want to join us?
14:52:00 <addison> action: addison: respond to CSS confirm 27 Oct at 1600Z for TPAC crossover meeting
14:52:01 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1075 - Respond to css confirm 27 oct at 1600z for tpac crossover meeting [on Addison Phillips - due 2021-09-09].
14:52:23 <David> r12a: we need a list in advance of talking points. Both what we want and what they care about.
14:52:49 <David> addison: r12a has an action to review CSS ???
14:53:01 <addison> s/CSS ???/CSS text decoration/
14:53:24 <David> addison: who wants to review CSS open issues?
14:53:30 <David> r12a: we all should
14:53:49 <David> r12a: Who do we contact for CSS open issues
14:54:12 <David> r12a: we need to slect the most important
14:54:21 <addison> action: xfq: review CSS open issues for important items to resolve in TPAC
14:54:21 <David> xfq: I'll look
14:54:21 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1076 - Review css open issues for important items to resolve in tpac [on Fuqiao Xue - due 2021-09-09].
14:54:30 <addison> agenda?
14:55:42 <David> addison: Webauthn needs more discussion, as we didn't finish last week
14:55:50 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 7
14:55:50 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- HTML 4814 -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:55:59 <David> r12a: HTML 4814
14:56:12 <addison> https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/4814
14:56:38 <addison> https://github.com/aphillips/html/commit/b0135d2aee490ef9d40c8bdffce840353c2e0e08
14:56:43 <David> addison: I have a pull request against it
14:58:02 <addison> https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/7003#pullrequestreview-744095972
14:58:34 <David> addison: discussion of wording at the bottom
14:59:40 <David> r12a: You added "language appropriate case folding". Did you mean case conversion?
15:00:04 <David> r12a: I don't think there is a difference by language?
15:00:22 <David> addison: What about a string search that is language sensitive.
15:01:08 <David> r12a: there are some features like ignoring accents. The thrust is you need to normalise and case fold
15:01:37 <David> addison: In turkish you would lose linguistic information with a more promiscuous match.
15:02:13 <David> addison: Language appropriate case folding could map by language.
15:03:24 <David> addison: This is the purpose of CharMod, hence needing a document on searching strings and implementitions.
15:04:24 <David> r12a: We are mathching user input against a values. Is this string matching or string searching. i.e do you want to know if 2 strings match.
15:05:25 <David> addison: values should be filtered by substrings in the list. Then there are different to types of mathching e.g. accents kana/kana matching
15:05:58 <David> addison: we are adding "beware of the complexity of searching".
15:06:50 <David> addison: One working group in the past was working on Find. We poitned out many issues, unless it is purely string matching (maybe case insensitive).
15:07:13 <David> r12a: complexity could come with an esset for example.
15:07:42 <David> jck: this could be entering dangerous territory, whether ours or HTML's
15:07:57 <David> r12a: We go for a permissive approach
15:08:14 <David> jck: This could cause problems
15:08:55 <David> jck: This was what early Unicode talked about string mathching after folding.
15:09:28 <David> addison: User interaction will provide ???
15:09:50 <David> r12a: I've added custom smarter matched to Uniview
15:10:11 <David> jck: that's a different matter to case folding
15:10:46 <David> r12a: if you type in Benin, with an e acute, should that match the ASCII Benin
15:11:02 <David> jck: forcing to ASCII is unreasonable
15:11:17 <David> r12a: more likely the other way around
15:11:42 <David> r12a: case folding is not a good place to start for string mathching
15:12:01 <David> addison: for tokens it is fine
15:12:20 <David> addison: that is the responsibilty of CharModNorm
15:12:45 <David> jck: even for identifiers there are issue with case sensitive environments.
15:12:45 <addison> https://w3c.github.io/string-search/
15:13:08 <David> r12a: maybe case folding doesn't belong in this HTML spec
15:14:03 <David> addison: In a find command, there is normally an option to be case insensitive, or not. But you might need to be language sensitive manner.
15:14:39 <David> r12a: This is case mapping. You do the language tailoring for here.
15:16:04 <David> addison: string search doc in the link above. It was moved out of Charmod to keep for later. This is an example of it is really hard to describe than it looks. We need to write clearer specs, so we can identify the problems.
15:16:27 <David> jck: Clearer explanation of ??? would be very helpful.
15:16:53 <David> addison: Original intent was to warn of the complexities.
15:17:12 <David> r12a: does not think the Charmod  Reference is useful.
15:18:08 <David> r12a: We need a searching document to point people at. Following this discussion this is about case matching not case folding. We don't want them to case fold.
15:18:49 <David> addison: It would be reasonable to have a case insensitve search, but warn of the challenges.
15:19:05 <David> r12a: that's case mapping, not case folding
15:19:26 <David> addison: it is case matching or caseless  matching that we are interested in.
15:20:06 <David> addison: Shall I remove the sentence about normalisation and case folding?
15:20:34 <David> r12a: normalisation is important, but I think we should tale out case folding.
15:21:02 <David> r12a: We may need to mention case equivalence
15:21:17 <David> addison: I'll edit again for that.
15:21:36 <David> r12a: I will review later
15:26:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/02-i18n-minutes.html addison
15:26:10 <addison> zakim, who is here?
15:26:10 <Zakim> Present: Addison, Fuqiao, Atsushi, David, Richard, JcK
15:26:13 <Zakim> On IRC I see JcK, David, RRSAgent, Zakim, addison, koji, astearns, hsivonen, cwilso, hadleybeeman, r12a, atsushi, Bert, florian, sangwhan, bigbluehat, Mek, agendabot, trackbot
15:26:19 <addison> zakim, bye
15:26:19 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Addison, Fuqiao, Atsushi, David, Richard, JcK
15:26:19 <Zakim> Zakim has left #i18n
16:25:04 <r12a> r12a has joined #i18n