<scribe> Scribe: Sharron
<scribe> Chair: Brent
<shawn> existing resource: https://www.w3.org/WAI/people-use-web/
Kevin: In my view, one of the best resources WAI maintains to remind people that all this tech stuff is really about people. It needed a bit of a refresh to integrate new resources and to see if we need to add/update the personas.
<Sylvie> resent+ Sylvie
<Vicki> yes, it's a tryptic
Kevin: One of the objectives is to introduce more about mobile usage, looking at COGA materials, low vision user requirements, the RTC user requirments, media, XR and as those user requirements are being developed, have we included them in our personas.
<shawn> Objectives https://github.com/w3c/wai-people-use-web/wiki/2020-Update-Project-Page#objectives
Kevin: also posiiblity of using images, videos, and possible quotes in order to make them more persoanl, bring them a bit more to life. Seeing if more of WCAG 2.2 needs to be reflected and integrate references to newer resources like Perspectives video and such.
<shawn> Mockup https://w3c.github.io/wai-people-use-web/people-use-web/mockup/
Kevin: Mark and I are tag teaming
and wanted to let EO think about how we are thinking of
structuring the update, how we're assigning priorities and get
your thougts. Will share my screen
... playing around with the idea of determine what information
we need to surface and how to do this. This is early mockup to
be consdiered. Start with spare amount of info displayed, the
key barriers and things to consider about each person, what the
barrier is, and how it has had impact on his/her life.
... connected life impact back to technology. In the current
version, the impact is buried in the story detail. So we want
to pull them out and make them more apparent. Originally these
were meant to be very educatiove, raise awareness. Another
option is to create them in a way to drive design decisions
based on user needs.
... pulling out top needs, top barriers is a means to reinforce
the relationship to the design environement. Question is do we
need both of these aspects surfaced in thsi way?
... also have the AT use surfaced and presented very
explicitly. The final two sections are related resources and
related principles. Welcome your feedback.
Jason: Thi is exciting stuff, thanks for all that. Are there further discussions of how to use the video since it is such a good way to demonstrate. We use a kind of before and after video with code sourced by clients. Is there any intention to do something like that or do you need resources to help?
<shadi> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Video-Based_Resources
Kevin: Shadi is leading on that and would likely be happy to have support.
Shadi: We have produced the Perspective videos and are now producing two related sets of videos - one would be based on SCs and Guidelines and another to explore using AT. Give our users opportunities to read about it or watch a video about personas. So the requirements of what we need are in process. Perspectives videos are complete and embedded.
Jason: Thanks I will check them out.
Shadi: A few recent ones are animations and the next set are still TBD.
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say yes, needs for social *and* first bit clearly technology. *and* Assisitive Technologies and Adaptive Strategies *and* Combine headings?: 1. Top barriers,
Shawn: I am +1 to reinforce the social model. I understand that with personas we want to keep the tech connection strong. May want to simplyfy headings and expand/collapse.
<hdv> +.5 to one per page
Kevin: Mark and I have discussed the challenges, We need to think more about heirarchy. One consideration was a page pair persona. At this time, we use e/c to reduce the test for 8 personas. If instead we have just 2 per page, we can increase the text, reduce e/c
<Vicki> +1 to separate pages
Jason: +1
Sharron: +1
<MarkPalmer> I'm obviously +1 to separate pages as well
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to comment on separate page
Shadi: I agree with more page, espcially since adding video, maybe photo, etc. Question for Shawn, can you say more about why there is more focus needed on tech?
<Sylvie> No preference for separating pages or not.
Shawn: In a quick skim, tech does not jump out - it is foucsed on clothes and football. While I understand that other details bring personas to life, may be too far away from tech.
<Vicki> +1 to general approach, nice work guys!
Shadi: I very much like the tone, writing style,I like how it mixes in the story and highlights thing quite well.
Daniel: I understand the rationale of making people have depth. I worry about putting a numbe rof pages only becasue it takes more effort for readers to move among pages and may not therefore see all of them. The whole picture is improtant and I would just caution about that risk.
Shawn: I am more in favor of the all-on-one page approach. At least provide the option for printing ot downloading or something.
<eoncins> +1 to Shawn
Kevin: Yes, we should think about
that as an option.
... any other thought about the geenral approach?
<Laura_> +1 to one page
Shadi: The AT section might better be called AT and Adaptive Stategies and that is long, maybe find another term?
Shawn: Currently called Tools and Techniques, the short version of Assitive Technologies and Adaptive Strategies
Kevin: If we have the page per persona, it becomes less problematic to use the full term.
Estella: Very valuable resource. I only question - Top Barriers and Top Needs - sounds like a ranking or something?
<Crystal> +1
Estella: as a headline to a section, it causes me to think these are being ranked. How will they be listed as the kind of barriers
Kevin: Would only Barriers and Needs be more usful?
Shadi: We can look at wording but I completely agree with Estella. Maybe something like Barriers for Lee and also could be more positively phrased, other than Needs.
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say brainstorm: User Needs ; Design/Development Barriers and to say brainstorm: User Need Examples ; Design/Development Barrier Examples
Estella: I like Barriers, I like Needs, it is Top I have a problem with.
Shawn: Channeling what we did on the Curriculum. Design Development Barriers.
<Zakim> dmontalvo, you wanted to ask: is the word "barriers" sufficiently understood by those who are new to accessibility?
Sharron: -1 to that long phrase
Daniel: We are actually facing design problems so consdier a word like that.
Kevin: The question of needs being person centered and barriers being design centered.
<shawn> Sharron: Design and Development Barriers is too long. Estella ok with "needs" and "barriers" -- the "top" was the problem
<shawn> ... user needs is common in design and personas
<shawn> ... what does the user need -- generic not disability related
<shawn> ... User Needs
<shawn> ack
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say brainstorm: Barriers to Avoid
Kevin: It is useful to have the discussion for the structure and can play with the wording as we work through the iterations.
<shawn> Sharron: Design Barriers is sufficient
<eoncins> +1 to Sharron
Daniel: "to Avoid" clarifies the notion
Estella: Maybe instead of 'Top'replace with 'Main'
Kevin: We did a bit of an anlysis to ID what was missing, I only pulled out the ones presented in the story. As I did, I realized it was not a comprehensive list.Wanted to use a word to indicate it was an inmplete list of berriers that would be experienced.
<shawn> +1 to indicate it's not comprehensive -- that's why I brainstormed "example"s -- which is what I think Daniel uses in the curricula
Shadi: Don't like Main or Top, why not just Barriers?
Sharron: Common?
Shadi: Why any of those, why not keep it personal.
Kevin: Need to keep it clear it
is not comprehensive.
... anything else on geenral structure?
<shawn> good work Kevin & Mark!
<eoncins> Great work!
<shawn> https://github.com/w3c/wai-people-use-web/wiki/Persona-gap-analysis
Kevin: One of the things we did
to prep for this structural work was to review 1.what is the
representation across different types of disabilities 2. what
what the representation of the needs? What is missing?
... if we need to add a new persona or story, what is the
justification? One way to do that is to look at other W3C
resources. For example - autistic spectrum mdisorder is not
represented here but is represented elsewhere - should that be
included?
<shawn> +1 for reviewing user requirements/needs (coga, low vision, mobile, media, XAUR, RAUR) and WCAG
Kevin: now have a way to compare
what needs we talk about and where we talk about them across
W3C resources? For example mobility impairments one due to
injury and other to arthritis, there is overlap. At som point
we will have to do the comparisons to ensure that we at WAI are
not missing anything. Based on all the identified barriers,
have we missed mentioning things tht should be included?
... I have put some of these identified needs and barriers into
a spreadsheet that I am willing to share.
<Laura_> +1 to Sharron's Wow.
Estella: This is a WOW Kevin, it is amazing. A problem that arises to match need to barriers is the way some needs of one group also help another without being as dirst - it is a challenge
Kevin: Yes, I went through the COGA stuff and they don't attempt to be complete for each persona but the needs were often buried. I agree it is hard to generalize.
Estella: Sometimes an enhancement of their experince or understanding more than a need.
<Vicki> +1 to Sharron's wow. Great work.
<krisannekinney> +1 to the Wow, this is great work!!
Shadi: I fully agree and think that it is important to recongnize the individual and don't assume too much that some disabilities are more static since the experience is individual. We cannot address these as being compehensive and how to be really clear from the start that these are meant as examples for readers to extrapolate frm, not to conclude are comprehensive.
<shawn> [ Shawn notes: Remember that people are diverse. Be careful not to assume that all users, including users with disabilities, use your product the same way. People use different interaction techniques, different adaptive strategies, and different assistive technology configurations. People have different experiences, different expectations, and different preferences. This persona is just one example
<shawn> of a user in this user group. -- http://www.uiaccess.com/accessucd/personas.html]
Shadi: The current resource has a disclaimer and I wonder if we want to make it even more clear that this is an almost random sample and not meant to meet all needs or explain all cases.
Kevin: Yes we can play that up and make it even more clear
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to ask about note at bottom about not comprehensive, only one example
Shawn: Add a note on each persona (sidenote) to remind people that this is not meant to be comprehensive.
Kevin: It will make sense to have something stronger to say about disclaimer.
<Zakim> dmontalvo, you wanted to elaborate on blind people not knowing braille
Daniel: Shadi was talking about
Braille, I see many misconceptions about the use of it. May
need to clarify a bit in our coverage.
... currently we have the only use of braille by a Deaf/Blind
user and state that most blind people do not use Braille which
is true but not a good development. WAI should probably not
make it such a central point.
Shadi: We were trying to break the myth that all blind people use Braille.
Kevin: Could just add a detail that the user does not use Braille but many of her friends do. You can talk about both things without adding another persona.
<shawn> 1+ to weaving in e.g., "she doesn't know braille, yet many of her friends do"
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to wonder about adding notes about specific diversity
Shawn: We might want to add notes about the diversity of user skills or experiences where appropriate.
<shadi> +1 to shawn's idea of highlighting diversity per story
Kevin: I have seen cases where demographic data is added to indicate that this is one snapshot but there are other user examples.
Shadi: Add to the chorus of wow!
Looking at this it is a bit of a heat map. Is the data here
across all peronsas on W3C or specific to HPWD use web?
... There is sometimes a Primary and sometimes Secondary needs
to be expressed. Such a table within just the HPWD Use Web that
includes both Primary and Secondary. And where are you getting
the wording for the needs categories?
... looking for ways to simplify, can refer to Principles or
SCs?
Kevin: There is a way to
translate the Needs into those more formal categories to get
more data out of it and make more useful.
... Last question is that there is a lot of writing to be done
on this. Looking for contributors to help pull out the data and
write the narratives, consistency across peronas, pull out
barriers and needs and make them clear, build connections, a
variety of thing s to do.
<eoncins> I will be happy to contribute
Estella: This is a very much
needed work and I wil be very happy to help.
... this will be able to be shared across other WAI groups and
all of W3C
Sharron: I am happy to help as well, Kevin and Mark
<shawn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/teach-advocate/accessible-presentations/
Shawn: Minor changes have been made and approved by chairs. One thing I wanted to run by the whole groups is the question of the animations comment in the update and give you a chance to skim through and comment if you have any
Kevin: Where would the animations update go?
<shawn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/teach-advocate/accessible-presentations/#slides
Shawn: Probably under provide slides and projected materials
Estella: Under terminolgy is US
based, so we have CART services is not matched in a European
context, can it be adapted more closely to the European
context.
... will you introduce European terminolgy?
Shawn: Feel free to introduce that as a comment.
Kevin: Limit animations should be in the preparing slides... section, seems to go perfectly there.
<Vicki> +1 Sylvie, good point
<eoncins> +1 to Sylvie
Sylvie: Now that we have so many
online conferences, what can we do to strngthen the advice
about making those accessible
... maybe I can help with that
Shawn: That would be great.
<kevin> +1 to more info on remote sessions
<shawn> https://github.com/w3c/wai-presentations2all/issues/13
Brent: There are more important things than transitions, can we start listing those? Like insertion of text boxes affecting reading order. If we want to be granular about it.
<shawn> Sharron: This is to present your materials in an accessible way. Make sure we say to make your ppt accessible e.g., reading order
Shawn: That was my concern, getting too granular, we are not telling people how to make documetns accessible
<Sylvie> They should make their powerpoint accessible or provide an alternative accessible version
Daniel: Even if you do all of these there are still people who want to get to it in an alternative means - a sentence to emphasize this would be useful.
<shawn> Consider not using unnecessary motion or animations, such as text or images flying in from the side. Motion is particularly distracting for some people, and can make some people ill.
Shadi: This is one of the considerations that can lead to misunderstanding. "Avoid ...unless necessary" leaves too much to interpretation.
<shawn> Consider not using *unnecessary* motion or animations, such as text or images flying in from the side. Certain types of motion can be particularly distracting for some people, and can make some people ill.
Shadi: consider not using and avoid is too strong language in my opinion.
<eoncins> +1 to Sharron
<shadi> +1 to Sharron
<shawn> Consider how to use motion or animations, such as text or images flying in from the side. Certain types of motion can be particularly distracting for some people, and can make some people ill.
<Vicki> +1 to sharron, more do's than dont's, more positive wording
<shawn> Consider how to use motion or animations, such as text or images flying in from the side. Is it useful or unnecssary. Certain types of motion can be particularly distracting for some people, and can make some people ill.
<shawn> Consider how to use motion or animations, such as text or images flying in from the side. Does it improve understandbaility, or is it unnecssary? Certain types of motion can be particularly distracting for some people, and can make some people ill.
<shadi> +1
<Vicki> +1
<eoncins> +1
<Crystal> +1
<Laura_> +1
<brentb> +1
<kevin> +1
<Sylvie> +1
<dmontalvo> +1
RESOLUTION: Accept the minor changes and currently suggested wording to change the Presntation resource.
<shawn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/EOWG_Meetings#Upcoming_Teleconferences
Shawn: Will fix typos and put into the document to see in context.
Shawn: One more in November and taking off a couple of weeks in december. Improtant to attend the meetings we do have.
Shawn: Keep up with the posts and comment as needed.
Sharron: Thanks again Kevin and Mark for excellent work on HPWD Use web - just great!
trackbot, end meeting
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