<scribe> scribe: sajkaj

Conformance model meetings with larger AG WG group

sl: FYI: Working to bring overall conformance models to AGWG to help narrow candidates in time for FPWD in about two months

js: Can we do details of timeline?

ca: First proposal to AGWG next week, then week following

js: Point is next 3 weeks AGWG are joint mtgs with Silver for conformance model candidates review
... August 11 will be a virtual daylong with AGWG

rm: Expect some tweaks as the plan evolves

ca: Specifics ... Announcing in AGWG today for upcoming weeks re Silver
... Next week Rachael will present her proposal
... Following week will be John Foliot's proposed model
... Then week following will be focussed on a deep dive of the alternatives; what to keep from either; etc.

mc: Just opened telecon page ...

<MichaelC> AG telecon info

sl: Asks if any questions?

[crickets]

All Subgroup Check-in

<Lauriat> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Main_Page#Sub_Groups

js: Please provide an assessment of how far along your group will be in 4 weeks ...

makoto: Just starting writeup;

<Makoto> http://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://github.com/MakotoUeki/silver/blob/5a9e34fd89db6adc0d50f61a8cc278161e51f379/guidelines/explainers/AltText.html

. Edited link on subroup wiki

<Makoto> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Alt_Text_Subgroup#Current

. Has current/draft sections, also howto
. almost done with one method
. alt on image elements -- migrating to our template
. feedback welcome

js: Any idea of where in 4 weeks?

makoto: Would like other tabs; will also try to write another method

. Asks if OK?

js: Yes
... Would be good to capture all the 2.2 updates somehow -- though not fully done, work on techniques would be good to show
... Let's talk off meeting
... It's very good work

sl: visual contrast ...

chris: lots of movement, components also full page --
... 4 weeks both granular table and methods off that

js: fontweight and size method?

chris: can develop what we have further by then

<Jan> presnt+ jan

sl: clear lang

<Jan> We did not meet last week

<Jan> due to the NFB conference

<Jan> We are meeting again this week.

js: need a 4 week estimate when possible

sl: XR

js: Did not meet this week; Mike working on first draft re captioning method for end August
... Also working on functional outcomes
... To all subgroups: Please prioritize functional outcomes; we need that for conformance work

sl: Maturity Model

df: Moving next mtg to the 29th ...
... Believe we will have at least an outline in 4 weeks
... We'll need to figure how functional outcomes fit in

js: Asks David not to overworry functional outcomes in maturity model
... an outline would be awesome if possible

<Zakim> JF, you wanted to request a definition from David

df: Should be able if we can get agreement!

js: If there is disagreement; please work for the higher lievel where you do have agreement
... Functional Needs

mc: Meeting weekly Thursdays; will talk intersection with maturity model next mtg; and will start paring down massive collected outcomes
... Working both outcomes and needs; could produce something in 4 weeks but not at the detail we want

js: We really need the high level categories in order to support breakdown by group for conformance model

mc: Not sure we've determined what categorization is correct, but will try

js: concerned over two groups working on outcomes --

mc: understood; believe we can work that out

<bruce_bailey> https://section508.gov/content/mapping-wcag-to-fpc

mc: we're trying to capture everything; so we'll need a plan to synbc

bb: Pasted list of 508's categories used to map to 2.x A and AA
... Mostly aligns with EN -- but there are some discrepencies

js: Yes, the discrepencies put onto this task!

rm: Believe there's great value to approach from both bottom up and from top down, then resolve any issues
... We shouldn't sidestep either

sj: May not need final list of categories for AGWG

mc: Yes, but should not risk "you're leaving my group out'"

js: So, we'd publish a note with Silver draft?

mc: No, into the draft

js: Headings
... Should discuss our plan here ...
... It's one of our most complete guidelines, but also sketchy because we use it as our prototype
... We've used it to check whether other aspects work
... Asks Sherie ...

Sherie: Yes; notes VMware working on AI to help with headings

js: Conformance Architecture Testing
... Notes Jake has been making progress on how to test functional outcomes when there are no methods, or when new/proprietary tech
... While Jake on holliday, we'll write up a testing model with Francis

<Fazio> does it include accessible authentication SC?

js: Plan is to setup an example with login incl the sublogin pieces, "forgot," etc
... Hope to have something to show Friday

df: Asks about keeping COGA in this work

js: Trying to start with unarguably bad login, and show what needs fixing
... COGA nuances would come later
... Before we release something we recommend, we want to do validity testing

Functional outcome template

js: Discussed template last Friday ...
... Confirmed definition of functional needs
... Moving on how to setup functional outcomes -- still discussion on how to structure them

<MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/2020/07/17-silver-minutes#item02

<jeanne> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gfYAiV2Z-FA_kEHYlLV32J8ClNEGPxRgSIohu3gUHEA/edit#heading=h.rbn6yq3f7i4b

js: Following from Friday's minutes ...

<jeanne> Last Friday's resolved: A functional need is A statement that describes a specific gap in one’s ability, or a specific mismatch between ability and the designed environment or context.

jf: What if gap is tech gap?

js: Resolved--rather not reopen just now

df: We made distinction between functional need and user need

js: Next step is functional outcomes
... These are for our content -- so very specific to a guideline

<jeanne> Examples:

<jeanne> “Organizes text into logical chunks to make locating information easier and faster.”

<jeanne> “Uses visually distinct headings so sighted readers can determine the structure.”

<jeanne> “Provides semantic structure to support assistive technology-- headings are coded as headings.”

<jeanne> “Conveys a sense of hierarchy that helps the user explore and navigate the text material.”

<Chuck> js: What I think I was discussing was "present perfect".

<Chuck> sajkaj: That's not quite right here.

<Chuck> s /js/sajkaj/

js: Wanted to have present tense active verbs so would be clear what to do

rm: Example was "users percieved ..."
... Eager to understand distinction

js: Certainly need to get them into plain lang
... Each outcome had test, and we organized by test then averaged ...
... In an attempt to keep things fair across groups

rm: Not sure about rolling these to headings

js: Also Jake concerned

rm: Agree this orgnizes the tests
... Believe level above this is more something else

<Lauriat> +1 to Rachael, but I can't put it any better than that either.

js: Notes Jake doesn't consider headings a good guideline -- but if stated as structuring text, could apply better

rm: Believe it's to become more user need focussed, not tech

<JF> +1 to Rachael - W3C is a technical standards org

<Lauriat> +1 to Rachael, exactly.

rm: Should not mix "user percieve, programatically determinable"

<Zakim> ChrisLoiselle, you wanted to comment on guidelines / functional needs etc.

<ChrisLoiselle> https://www.ucdenver.edu/faculty_staff/faculty/center-for-faculty-development/Documents/tutorials/Assessment/module3/good_objectives.htm

chris: toward defining our objective per condition, e.g. screen reader, coga, etc as per user behavior

<ChrisLoiselle> https://www.ucdenver.edu/faculty_staff/faculty/center-for-faculty-development/Documents/tutorials/Assessment/documents/examples_verbs_cognitive_process_level.pdf

jf: plus one to RM about distinguishing between programatically determinable and user perception

<Lauriat> -1, I think we can do better than programmatically determinable.

jf: But it's the programatically mesaurable that we can define

<jeanne> -1 Writing guideline

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