Introductions

All: Round of introductions from participants to welcome Daniel (staff) and Jenn (participant from SiteImprove).

Curricula - issues from survey

https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/WAI_Curricula/First_Unit_Review

<shadi> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/WAI_Curricula/First_Unit_Review

Shadi: The wiki page summarizes the issues raised. If we missed your specific comment be assured we will get back to it, Daniel and I.
... wanted to look a the first teaching unit and use it as a template for creating the others. Several good points emerged, would like to discuss them to be sure we are addressing issues appropriately.
... on the question of overall structure, there seemed to be a strong prefernce for assistive technology rather than access technology.

Shawn: We did consider this change across the board a while ago and decided against prioritizing it at this time.

<yatil> [ Thinks we need to discuss what the advantages/disadvantages are, but if we want to change the wording, we should have good reasons. :-) ]

Shadi: There are many times where it is appropriate to use "assistive technology and adaptive strategies." I was looking for a term that would summarize both together and avoid the repetitive, long string. But it seems Assistive Technology is more widely recognized and not likely to change at this time.

Brent: And it seems it would need to be a system wide change - if we chose to use a different term here we would make it a broader discsussion.

<shawn> +1 to it's a broader decision

<shawn> [ and Shawn is a strong proponent of "adaptive strategies" (esp. as one who uses them:) ]

Shadi: The other suggestion is to use instructor rather than trainer. I deliberately chose "trainer" to be sure we cover both academic teachers as well as business training sector. What do others think?

Denis: We at Deque talk about "instructor-led training." So from the corporate perspective, instructor is the most common term.

Shadi: Thanks that is good to know. What about academics - Howard what is your view?

Howard: I prefer instructor over trainer.

<shawn> +1 to instructor working well for multiple areas (especially over "trainer")

KrisAnne: The job title people have is often Trainer but the task itself is most often described as instructor.

Howard: Faculty would be likely put off by the word trainer.

<Brent> +1 to Howard's comment.

<dboudreau> well, that was easy. ;)

KrisAnne: Yes that is true, they consider themsleves, professors or teachers, not trainers/

Shadi: Hearing no opposition, we will adopt the term instructor.

Eric: Personally I don't like instructor very much. Trained to do a task gives the learner more agency. I personally don't like it but happy to go with it if that is consdiered most appropriate by the rest of the group.

Shadi: Suggestion for another term?

Eric: I like "teacher"

<dmontalvo> What about facilitator?

Vicki: I feel more comfortable with trainer. It may be more of a cultural difference, what we are used to in another part of the world.

Shadi: Yes, I think you are right.

Daniel: As we try to broaden the scope of this, I think it may be related to how it is used. May consider facilitator, but that may be my misconcpetion about how trainer and instructor are tied to a more narrow scope.

Shawn: I put "learning leader" in IRC with a smiley face. Ideally a lot of training, teaching situations are most effective when you are leading people to learn for themselves. Another advantage of facilitator over teacher or trainer is the hope that it would open up the possibilities of leading this learning for people who may not have confidence to feel they know enough aobut the subject to be teachers.

Brent: Doing a quick search of definitions, leads to the idea that faciltator helps people do something for themselves.

Howard: I think that since this is curriculum by definition, we must consider faculty attitude. Teacher is not widely used bu college faculty - they seem to use instructor or professor.

Laura: Teacher connotes K12

<Howard> agree with Laura

Jenn: From my understanding of academics, training has a more active agency. What about instrutor-led training to include both?

Eric: I teach a university course, our chat room is called Teachers and our meeting are called Instructor Meeting. It may not be that clear. Finally I think it is fine to use instructor. While not most common word everywhere it is widely understood.

Shadi: So unless anyone has strong feeling, lets go with instructor for now and see how it lands as the content develops. Shawn's point about learning together aligns with the fact that we want to have guidance about how to teach the course, the role of the instructor, support for good learning outcomes.

<yatil> [ Brainstorm: 'Training conductor' ]

Shadi: Next point was the question of using outside resources. In general we try to avoid due to fact that they change (maintenance), we as W3C have obligation to neutrality. We can point to our own that we have control of and make general statements about there are others out there without pointing to specific external resources.

Shawn: That is our default starting point but we are becoming more open to exceptions. Still need to be very thoughtful based on vendor neutrality, avoiding endorsements, maintenance, etc. but are more open (ie Business Case)

<shawn> [ agree it's actually *easiest* to just say no external references ]

<shawn> Sharron: [not from chairs position] In business case, we weren't pointing to resources as places to go learn - instead they were case studies. Yes, reference list is maintenacne issue. References in Business Case was different. Agree that maybe pointing to learning resources could be seen as more like endorsement.

<Vicki> > huge maintenance to correct broken links once pages are moved or sites redesigned

<Zakim> yatil, you wanted to say NIH syndrome

<shawn> ... agree pointing to is @@ and we need to take that very seriously.

Eric: There are many talks and stuff like that that will be useful as people learn. We have many things that are not covered on teh W3C site and we should be free to point to those.
... there may be a use case for creating a repository of links that post without endorsement. As someone who searches for resources, I think it unlikely that we (WAI) can cover everything and why duplicate things that are well done in the external world.

<Vicki> it's sensitive

Shadi: But what does it mean that W3C/WAI points to it? How do we manage that? Would we not have to do endless review and validation that the resource is true?

<shawn> [ agree with the issue that if we list one, then people ask for their resource to be listed, too -- especially with thbis type of resource ]

Eric: I totally see that. Maybe we could come up with "trusted partners," W3C members that we have confidence to point to.
... just wanted to make the case so we do not dismiss it and continue to think about it.

<shawn> Sharron: After 2.1 came out, staff did series on new SC - good, short, quick articles. We get letters all the time that say your blog says this, the understanding says this - who is right? Interpretatiion is abig deal.

<Vicki> +1 sharron

<Chris> +1 from me as well

<yatil> +1 to sharron :-)

<shawn> .... if we start pointing to external resources, we have to make a plan for management. People say "You pointed to this resource.... but it disagrees with the Understanding Doc - what gives?!?

<shawn> ... plan to validate, curate, and answer a bunch of questions

<Jenn> No +, but Sharron raises an important point and that sounds like a nightmare to manage.

<dboudreau> Regarding interpretations - I get the same kind of comments/questions all the time. So another huge +1 from me.

KrisAnne: I think when we talk about resources that talk about specific SCs or techniaues, we do have to make sure we only point to our own. But talking about something like universal design, we don't really do much of that at WAI. So to teach them those concepts, since we do not have much depth of coverage, we should be able to point to external resources.

<Jenn> +1 from me is a better way to put it!

<shadi> https://www.w3.org/WAI/fundamentals/accessibility-usability-inclusion/

Shadi: Yes, good point KrisAnne. I think the questions about universal design, inclusive design is one that we touch on but not explore in depth as you said.Maybe we can introduce more about that or maybe an update to it. At least to give us the WAI perspective.
... we may have a resource for that.

<Jenn> It's something I raised in the comments as well. Good to know there is a resource.

KrisAnne: I did not know that it existed and gled to learn about it.

Shadi: Again the question of findability. I am a bit over time, can I extend?
... There are excellent resources outside of WAI and it would be helpful to be able to point people to them. It seems that the unfortunate reality is that the default will remain that we avoid using external resources. We can consdier making exceptions under very specific circumstances.

Deni: I agree in principle but wonder how it will impact the development time and the need to reinvent the wheel.

Shadi: maybe an external guide for doing their own search for materials to augment our own rather than pointing to specific items.

Denis: If we don't have specific resources, do we make a backlog of resource wish list to fill nt the gaps that will be useful.

Shadi: Yes, that is historically how we get the ideas for development of new projects and resources. For example the previous outline of training course was created before we had some of these resources. Then have more , integrate and update the teaching materials as we add resources.'
... Moving on from that default decision, we have a resource that was really really useful like "Better Web Browsing," but it has become outdated.

<Vicki> https://www.w3.org/WAI/users/browsing

Shadi: my thoughts are that the BWB might be a great complement to How People with Disabilities Use the Web. So at this moment it is outdated. Several noted that it is off putting to be linked to an outdated document. Can we consider that even though some of the details are outdated, the basic concepts are valid and useful.

<Vicki> Oops... lots of external links on the web browsing page with broken links "The page you're looking for can't be found."

Brent: When we use the term "outdated" does it mean that this is no longer useful or only that some of the terms may be outdated, the substance is good. Do we need a new term?

Shadi: May need the explanation of the difference between concpets and details. Responding to the IRC discussion, that is the real problem - the broken links. It is a very different kind of of problem to display broken links.

Eric: Yes and we have had that discussion and part of why we do not want to link out.

Denis: The whole fact that brent asked the question about the term "outdated" indictes that in fact it is a problem and probably not useful to include it.

<yatil> https://www.w3.org/WAI/standards-guidelines/wcag-mobile-overlap/

<Zakim> yatil, you wanted to say we usually say "Archived", not "Outdated" and to

Shadi: But what about "The links may be broken but the concepts are useful"kind of statement.

Eric: We do have that kind of statement in archived pages. We could do a quick and dirty update removing broken links and be able to have a less problematic resource.

Shadi: So a minmal first step to an update?

<Chris> :)

<Vicki> :) I love delete old links

Vicki: If we simply removed external links, could we just do that as a light revision, then use it! I can volunteer to do that.

<Vicki> I put a nice flowery vendor paragraph, don't worry

Shadi: Yes can do a guided search to help people find the specific items on their specific OS
... thank you Vicki! Next question on teaching outline where we provided the actual suggested course outline. My understanding is that EO has some questions about how much hand-holding, suggestion do we provide for the order of each piece. A suggestion was to create lessons or sub-units for breaking down the cadence - associate notes and timing with each one.
... how much more description is needed. Examples of specific types of knowledge excercises?
... do we need to provide more instruction or guidance? For example, the unit on universal design is recommended to be taught by more advanced instructors.
... the question is the more we do that the more constrainsts we put on the instructor.

Sharron: +1

Denis: My take on that is that any experienced instructor will take what they need. Experienced teachers will use the material for inspiration but not limited by what they read.
... I could read something that might confirm my own approach. Someone less experinced may take it more as a blueprint. I think the guidance is a great idea and can't see how an experinced person will be limited.

Howard: I agree. Experinced instructors will have confidence to change for their own style. But a person new to the topic will really appreciate the greatr amount of guidance.

Jenn: I agree to those perspectives. We need to agree to be consisitant with the topics and what should be included in the trajectory. We can help those who are learning or are in the process to become accessibility experts, a place to start. Will not be likely to constrain those who are already experts.

Shadi: However, if we make a list to say this much time for a topic, a student sees a variation from what is listed here, could that be a problem?

<Zakim> yatil, you wanted to say that the specific exercises might also be good stand-alone resources :-D and to say "how do you use the curricular material"

Daniel: We could suffer from a perception of a lack of consistancy if we are not prescriptive. However, being too prescriptive in an area where change is rapid could also be problematic.

<Jenn> I feel a set time for a session or an excercise is an example of something that might be too prescriptive.

Eric: The excercises could be useful as stand-alone resources. We can also invite feedback and over time point to some of those testimonials.

<shawn> [ Shawn notes that she has comments on the "Universal design:" topic that I guess we didn't get to today -- so looking forward to getting to that in future week :-]

Shadi: That is a question too - is there really a "best" way to teach these courses? Cultural, regional, environmental differences may have impact. I am hearing the majority of those who spoke up are leaning to providing more guidance. Could give a clear indication that these are guidelines and that we expect the resources to be modified according to audience and setting.

<Vicki> +1 good approach, Shadi

<Brent> +1 to providing guidance

<Laura> +1

<Howard> +1 to providing guidance

<dboudreau> +1

<Jenn> +1

<yatil> +1

Shawn: Another idea is to do a time range and/or percentage of time

<Jenn> +1 on the percentage of time to be spent

<yatil> +1 to dboudreau, they are general guidelines and I think instructors are aware of it

<yatil> generally

Denis: Same line of thought. As an experienced teacher, I may try to follow a time recommendation but might change as the course is delivered in the real world setting.

Sharron: Yes, I completely agree with Denis that an experienced teacher will take any time or delivery instrutions as suggestion only. So it may not really matter what you say for time or even order. Experienced teachers will take as inspiration, and adapt.

<shawn> ... need to make it clear enough -- surprised you said what if student sees outline and critiques -- make it clear that it's just one idea. people will adapt it. Just make it clear that it's fine to do it differently

<Jenn> I agree with Denis - I too have to adapt training sometimes to meet interest, or a deeper dive into a particular topic. I would want to feel that I can still do that. :)

Denis: Regardless of flow of content, an experienced teacher will be able to shift and respond to interest of the attendees.

Shadi: I think we agree that these are suggested ways of delivery and not written in stone. The same content taught in diffferent sectors - banking vs health care for example - will be very differnt.

Denis: We should be careful about not over thinking how things might be delivered. We need to be careful about content and accuracy etc but be flexible about delivery methods becasue we don't want to constrain people and make sure they do not feel it is not for them.

<Jenn> +1 on what Denis mentioned

Chris: Might it be useful to provide pre-requisites for trainers?

Shadi: Maybe we need to provide more of that kind of guidance.

<Jenn> +1 on ensuring there are training pre-requisites

<yatil> +1 good discussion :-)

Chris: ARIA would be a good exmaple to further define what makes an advanced instructor.

Shadi: Yes, this is the first review, there was a lot of useful comment, greatly appreciate all of that. Universal design; the overlap between HPWDUW; another about overall value of BizCase. Need to define but realize trainers may address differently. Will also address grammar, spelling, headings, simpler language. We heard you and will be working on it.

Shawn: I have a significant issue about how Principle of Universal Design are addressed...we will need to revisit.

<shawn> [ Shawn notes that she has comments on the "Universal design:" topic that I guess we didn't get to today -- so looking forward to getting to that in future week :-]

<Jenn> Shawn I would love to get in on the discussion re: Universal Design.

EasyChecks

Sharron: Here are links to the minutes of the meetings - available in the Agenda. Due to the time differences of interested folks, we had two meetings, one to include Australia and one for Europe.
... We found a very similar hestitancy and reluctance to point to outdated resources.

<shawn> Background: Easy Checks Project plan <https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Easy_Checks_2019_Project_Plan> , Easy Checks Next Gen <https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Easy_Checks_Next_Gen>, Easy Checks 2 April minutes <https://www.w3.org/2019/04/02-eo-minutes.html>

Sharron: Main tool bar we use only works in IE, so there is concern about that.

<shawn> [ Shawn thinks WebDev is the main toolbar (rather than IE WAT) -- so we just need to tweak the appearance of that ]

Sharron: Everyone had a chance to voice their own goals with Easy Checks and that was quite useful.
... at the second meeting someone introduced a topic that grabbed immediate attention and support:

Sharron: It was suggested that one effective way to deliver Easy Checks in a simple way would be to provide bookmarklets from WAI
... Could simplify the approach and now we would like to check with the larger group to see if that is a supported way to move forward.
... Would like to open discussion around that right now.

Chris: I think it is a great idea
... I use bookmarklets, it gives them a quick and actionable goal.
... Like that personally and I support the idea.

Denis: I used to feel the same way as Chris does.
... recently however, we found a lot of security concerns with them and look into creating an extension.
... So we might need to look into creating an extension instead.
... the idea sounds great but people feel that they are security concerns

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say +1 for bookmarklets approach (although maybe not calling them "WAI bookmarklets")

Shawn: Denis - are all bookmarklet security issues or is it only certain bookmarklets?

<Chris> that was my question as well

dboudreau: As it is JS, so it can basically do everything and some people are concerned.
... For example, if someone doesn't trust a bookmarklet they could not want to install them.
... Why not have an extension, it could be more work and we could put it on addon stores.

<Zakim> yatil, you wanted to say same with extensions

<dboudreau> It ultimately comes down to a question of trust, yes.

Eric: We can contain the JS and users would need to trust extensions and bookmarklets both.

dboudreau: I don't think I personally could use them in training, but I think the idea is great in general.

Eric: We could encourage people to add the scripts to their own extensions.

Shawn: The current easychecks have the WebDev toolbar as the first option and the IE WAT as the second option. Do you use WebDev toolbar in your trainings, Denis?

dboudreau: Yes, we recommend free tools and WebDev toolbar is used and also shared to our customers. We don't use or mention the WAT because it is not supported. Microsoft introduced the accessibility insights tool and I'm exploring that at the moment.
... There are recent tools that are probably more interesting than both of those tools.

<shawn> +1 to investigating Accessibility Insights https://github.com/w3c/EasyChecks/issues/10#issuecomment-478805267

[ Eric: And more specific to accessibility. ]

Sharron: We do have a Google Doc where we collect tools that we could feature.

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to point out IE in OZ govt

Sharron: Anyone else any ideas about the bookmarklets or the whole revision?

<Jenn> I share the concerns about security.

Shawn: There are still places that are limited to Internet Explorer, for example in the Australian Government.

Shawn: They might be on lock down to IE still.

<Vicki> +1 I also share concerns about security

<Sharron> Sharron: Google sheet to list tools: Suggested tools to consider for Easy Checks

[ Jenn, Vicki - it is only a security concern if we put insecure stuff in and we won't :-D ]

Denis: Many of the current tools are not made for accessibility training related to Easy Checks and now it looks like we get new tools that are more specific.

<Vicki> @yatil (we count on you)

<yatil> @vicki I count on our review process ;-)

Sharron: Thanks for the discussion, we will meet in small groups and continue to develop the plan.

Outreach

Brent: Translation outreach is active, you have invitation to retweet, use the language provided to do your own outreach on the current translation effort and looking for translators.

Brent: can look at this and add to it as we all do more outreach, get ideas from one another, etc.
... please track what you are doing or what you see others doing related to WAI translations, etc

WrapUp

Brent: Please note the updated survey links, work for this week,
... please stay current with surveys, face to face attendence, etc
... any questions about what is on the table these days? Thanks for joining and for all this good input. Have a great weekend and thanks for all you do.