Silver Community Group Teleconference

11 Mar 2019


jeanne, Chuck, JF, Charles, AngelaAccessForAll, shari, Lauriat, Jennison, Cyborg, Jan, LuisG, KimD, JohnRochford, Lauriat_, RedRoxProjects, bruce_bailey, corbb, Makoto, kirkwood, RedRoxProjects_
Shawn, Jeanne
Jan, LuisG, corbb


<RedRoxProjects> FYI - this is Amy (my username doesn't give that away)

<Chuck> Understanding

<Chuck> adaptive

<Cyborg> clear

<Cyborg> i like continuing/continuous too

<Chuck> flexible/functionail/fair

<Chuck> Universal

<Chuck> FUDGE

<Cyborg> flexible universal clear...

<Chuck> Flexible/functional usable/universal digital guidelines for everyone

<Cyborg> everyone is there

<Chuck> Resolving Accessibility Guidelines Education

<Chuck> RAGE

<Chuck> RAGU?

<Cyborg> Accessible Guidelines for Everyone

<Cyborg> AGE

<Chuck> [14:30] <Chuck> Forward looking accessibility guidelines (FLAG) [14:31] <Chuck> World Creation Accessibility Guidelines [14:31] <Chuck> Accessibility Guidelines Pathway? [14:31] <Chuck> Accessible World Building

<Chuck> <Chuck> Clear Accessibility Guidelines [14:33] <Chuck> work in PIG [14:33] <Chuck> Audio seems better. [14:33] <Cyborg> Digital Accessibility Guidelines? [14:33] <Chuck> different room I think. [14:33] <Chuck> Progressive Inclusion Guidelines (PIG)

<bruce_bailey> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/2019_CSUN_F2F_Meeting

<Chuck> Yes

<Chuck> much superior than this morning.

<Chuck> Collaboration is a good thing

<Chuck> Silver is "code name". Not permanent. Not agreed upon.

<Chuck> Roger, over under.

<Cyborg> Needs

<Cyborg> best practices is good

<jeanne> angela: if requirement, then best practices is optional

<Jan> scribe: Jan

Shawn: What is the scope of what we should be covering?
... "digital" can mean anything that receives electricity?
... how do we not boil the ocean? We need to be more open than web content, but we have to draw a line somewhere

JohnR: What about using the term "easy"

Shawn: That might get into usability

<Chuck> I'm just going to interrupt.

Cyborg: Where are the intersecting lines - what is in the inside circle and what is in the outside circle?

Chuck: What does everyone think the space is?

<Cyborg> IoT?

<Cyborg> digital?

<RedRoxProjects> perhaps something like in the FAST working docs: https://w3c.github.io/apa/fast/

<RedRoxProjects> " It addresses primarily web content technologies but also relates to any technology that affects web content sent to users"

<Cyborg> will digital storage count?

Several people: computers; digital; anything that takes electricity; smart devices; human-to-computer interaction model;

Shawn: There are guidelines for physical spaces and making them accessible - some "physical things" will fall under other accessibility guidelines, while the Silver guidelines will cover technologies covered under the W3C.

<Cyborg> tech in a smart city context?

<Cyborg> so does everything count that has a digital component?

Shawn: I would like for us to center on user needs
... where is the line of boundary between web content and user agent?

<Chuck> First cut at a mental definition: The user interface used to interact with any software or firmware.

<Cyborg> digital vs technology

<Chuck> The interface used to interact with any software or firmware.

<Cyborg> backend vs front end?

<RedRoxProjects> thanks chuck!

<Cyborg> i have specifically been told that something couldn't be made accessible because it was a back-end issue - i wouldn't want to give them the room for that excuse, and designing things to be accessible from the beginning includes back-end as well

<Cyborg> in fact, the work that Silver is doing around structure first illustrates that principle

<Lauriat> +1 to not giving room for that excuse

<Chuck> All components which allow a user to interact with any software or firmware.

<Chuck> All components which facilitate the interaction with software or firmware.

<Chuck> All components of a system which facilitate the interaction between a user and software or firmware.

<shawn> WebEx https://mit.webex.com/join/slhenry

<Chuck> I have received this message

<Chuck> "You can join the meeting after the host admits you."

<Chuck> I need the host to admit me.

<Cyborg> same

<Cyborg> i can't get in

<Cyborg> can someone reach Jeanne to tell her?

<Chuck> I'm hoping Shawn or someone else in this irc chat can pass it along.

<Chuck> I have no other means of making the.... I'm admitted!

<Cyborg> wait

<Cyborg> i can't figure out how to hear anything

<Cyborg> i can see but not hear

<Chuck> me too

Silver Presentation to EOWG

<Chuck> It looks like my audio isn't generating audio, and it appears that I can't hear anything either.

<Chuck> Are we muted on your end?

Proposed timeline to completion - move existing WCAG content into new structure - develop new content in 2020; ongoing maintenance will start in 2021 and publish silver recommendation in 2021

<Chuck> We do not hear anything.

<RedRoxProjects> I will find out

<Chuck> At least I don't, and I don't believe Cybell (spelling) hears anything either.

<Cyborg> Cybele

<RedRoxProjects> it's being raised

<Cyborg> can't hear anything

<Chuck> thanks RedRoxProjects

<Chuck> there it is!

<Cyborg> i don't hear

Jeanne: Working on requirements document - this was shared with AG this morning

<Chuck> I suddenly can hear.

<Cyborg> i still can't

<Cyborg> i will try to get out and go back in

<Cyborg> one sec

<Chuck> There are two hot mikes in the room.

<Chuck> There is an echo

<Cyborg> waiting to be admitted

<Cyborg> not in room

<Chuck> k.

<Cyborg> still not admitted

<Chuck> RedRoxProjects can you see about getting Cyborg "admitted" to the meeting?

<Chuck> You seem to be the individual who "makes things happen", which we appreciate.

<RedRoxProjects> I'm not sure who is in control of it...

<RedRoxProjects> someone else actually helped re the audio

<RedRoxProjects> but thanks! <3

<Chuck> Shawn Henry is the host.

Jeanne: Design principles are not necessarily measurable, whereas requirements would be measurable.

<Cyborg> i'm in now :)

<Chuck> excellent!

<RedRoxProjects> is there still an issue with the audio?

<Chuck> thanks all

<RedRoxProjects> re the echo?

<Chuck> I think Cyborg had to exit and re-enter.

<Chuck> All is well now.

<RedRoxProjects> fantastic \o/

<Chuck> Of a little significance, there is an echo because JohnRochford's mike and Eric's mike are both hot. So a bit of an echo, but it's tolberable.

<Chuck> tolerable.

Jeanne: for individual pieces of guidance, there may be multiple ways to measure it. For example, we can tell that something has alt text, but we don't have a way to measure the quality of the alt text.

<bruce_bailey> @@ design principles (slides 10 and 11) goes from 5 to 7, skipping 6

<Chuck> it's now pefect

<Chuck> s /pefect/perfect/

<RedRoxProjects> Shawn sorted it <3

<Chuck> Shawn's da human!

Jeanne: Instead of being a prescriptive, all or nothing measure, we want to give people an incentive to go beyond the minimum by having different levels - for example, give points for including people with disabilities in your design.
... Silver wiki has a list of links to our current work
... we want to support the tools that people like to use, so we provide links to these tools from the wiki
... We want revolutionary structure and evolutionary content - we expect to have a different structure in terms of how it is organized etc., but the content will evolve from what it is today
... Information architecture - we are flattening the structure (we want guidelines that are technology neutral and methods that are more technology-specific
... When we move WCAG content to silver, principles will become tags; sc's that are technology-neutral will be guidelines; technology-specific guidelines will become methods
... overall score will determine your level of bronze, silver, gold, etc.
... planning to get rid of SC numbers
... would like to move beyond existing technology - should not be restricted to web content
... will include advice for browsers, user agents, authoring tools, etc.

<yatil> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/11du_WWkSM2GZvV60z70uwPxcMeDBuWlpgd4ND6pKX9A/edit#slide=id.g51ee35a5e3_1_754

Jeanne: we are working on a style guide - would love to have help from EO on this
... Conformance Prototype - we want to allow for greater flexibility to reward desirable behavior for different types of products and products; allow for more flexible tests, etc.
... start with user needs, create tests, define methods, and then define guidelines ... everything should start with user needs and end with the guideline
... The 2021 date is for a recommendation that includes WCAG repackaged, along with new guidance that we want for disabilities that may not have been well represented in previous guidelines.

ChrisO: Have you thought about how you're going to manage the transition?

Jeanne: We don't have an answer yet, but it's something we are looking at - we haven't started writing yet ... we've only been looking at the structure so far.

Judy: Are you planning this as an in-place replacement or an alternate structure?

Jeanne: We have always thought about this as a gradual transition - both WCAG and Silver will coexist for a while, but we will continue to think about it.

ShawnH: Why did you decide to have your own style guide with a link to plain language guidance?

Jeanne: Because we wanted to build on it as things evolve.

<david-macdonald_> I added my responses to the requirements. Weather caused plane overnight in Montreal last night. (just arrived)

ShawnL: One of the things we looked at as part of our research was to look at how many companies have their own guidelines; we looked at why companies are doing this and we wanted to solve some of those problems and make it easier to build on things.

Shadi: Do companies ever use a standard directly, or do they have their own interpretations?

<shawn> [discussion about organizations making own version ]

<Cyborg> where are we now?

<Cyborg> is there a new link?

<Chuck> I assume that we are meeting on the original webex.

<Chuck> Shawn, I assume this is on the same webex (silver), correct?

<Cyborg> Chuck and I are back on - Cybele

<Chuck> Jeanne, are we meeting on the same webex? Silver?

<Chuck> Cybel and I are camped on that webex.

<Chuck> MichaelC, do you know if we are joining the silver webex? Cybel and I are camped on that webex now.

<Chuck> Progressively Liberalized Accessibility Treatment In Natural User Macrocosms (PLATINUM)

<Chuck> FYI... to anybody out there... Cybel and I are camped on the Silver webex.

<Cyborg> we can't hear anything

<Chuck> But we hear nothing, see nothing, all we can do is speak evil.

<Cyborg> has it started?

<Chuck> Is there life out there?

<Chuck> Can anybody acknowledge their presence?

<Cyborg> we really want to participate in the plain language workshop

<Cyborg> how do we reach out to you?

<Chuck> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Meetings/CSUN_2019

<Chuck> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Meetings/CSUN_2019

<Chuck> https://www.w3.org/2017/08/telecon-info_ag-ftf

<Cyborg> help - we can't find you

<jeanne> https://www.w3.org/2017/08/telecon-info_silver-ftf

<Cyborg> we are there, you are not...

<Chuck> I do not hear you.

<Chuck> Cyborg and I are on the silver tf webex.

<Chuck> is that not the accurate one?

<Chuck> Cybele and I have been on this one for a while.

<Chuck> Trying to figure out where you guys are.

<Chuck> oh.

<Chuck> So has it been a break?

<Cyborg> I just joined again and nobody else is here?

<Cyborg> i just called back in and just me and Chuck

<Chuck> happy to have kept you company cybele

<Cyborg> if there is a visual component, could that be shared please too? so far, i can hear well but can't see anything

Jeanne: Topic: Meeting with EO on Plain Language

Brent: I will be the contact from EO on this project; I have been working on this with the understandings documents to determine how to reword them.
... We have started a Google Doc that basically has an outline of things that we think are important with respect to plain language.

KrisAnne: We need to create our documents for the "new guy."

Brent: There's a fine line between simplifying the language too much and getting it adopted by the W3C - people still need to respect what is being said.

Chris: You also don't want to have a situation where you're having to decode language.

Brent: It might be nice to have a goal where you wouldn't have to have an Understanding Document

Jeanne: We're trying to tease apart the W3C conformance for technical specifications from regulatory requirements

<jeanne> Silver Style Guide: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HcCzoKvICUHCR5dM_fV4AHnkar-WJli4hxUUE0nzwlQ/edit

Brent: There are some things in the EO style guide that might be able to be added to the Silver style guide

<Brent> EO Style Guide: https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Style

<Brent> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Style

<Cyborg> when it's appropriate, how would i ask a question? happy to wait...

<jeanne> Silver Style Guide: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HcCzoKvICUHCR5dM_fV4AHnkar-WJli4hxUUE0nzwlQ/edit

I will tell them we have a queue

Cyborg: One comment around "intended audience" - at the most general level, the two groups we talked about that would benefit from plain language would be regulators and people with disabilities who are users and want to hold an organization accountable and they want to know if there's something in the guideline that they can use; another group might be seniors; in the prototype, we've tried to aim it toward people who would be very unfamiliar.
... it appears as those we are reverting back, so there are some scale challenges and there's some push-back to from people who are very committed to technical language

We just lost Cyborg's audio

<Chuck> Hi Cybele... cool, back.

Shawn: Methods will need to be in plain language, but they will still need to have technical language

Brent: One of the things the Understanding Documents do well is that they provide a glossary.

Jeanne: Personally, I don't like glossaries - I would rather have it explained in the text.

<Chuck> That is strange.

<Cyborg> uh oh it's beeping non stop

<Cyborg> we can't hear anything

<Cyborg> and now it's silent

JohnR: One way we do this is we might say "foot doctor" and then in parentheses we put "podiatrist."

<Chuck> I think we lost the room.

<Cyborg> we can't hear anything

<Chuck> Like a PC crashed.

Webex has had a meltdown - we are trying to reconnect.

<Chuck> Cybele and I are staying on.

<Cyborg> waiting for you

<Lauriat> Discussing a problem around using "programmatically determined" with the recommendation to just stop.

<Chuck> Oh boy

<Cyborg> oh no

<Cyborg> oh no

<Cyborg> :(

<Cyborg> here we go...falling through cyberspace

<Chuck> R2D2 is trying to join.

<Lauriat> Examples using the Information Architecture Prototype, for us to work off: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/13ZUtgIDUyC8KTQcQqLzjqluDX7Z9fhmx

<Cyborg> Chuck and I are discussing programmatically determined - possible alternative: must be identifiable in code.

<Cyborg> argh

<Cyborg> any other way to join?

Lucy: "When the user must take an action" is some suggested wording for input

<jeanne> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1M03NLcnNlrEAvcAy1h_esM6WzGsVKCw8ZbzowOZQWvo/edit#heading=h.l24asirpmi0

Shawn: Looking at "Labels or Instructions

<jeanne> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1M03NLcnNlrEAvcAy1h_esM6WzGsVKCw8ZbzowOZQWvo/edit#heading=h.904awgjzi8xk

<Chuck> Cybele: That was a cool conversation. I enjoyed that.

<bruce_bailey> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1M03NLcnNlrEAvcAy1h_esM6WzGsVKCw8ZbzowOZQWvo/edit

Shawn: We started off by looking at the term, "input" and replaced it with "when the user must act."

<Brent> https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/labels-or-instructions.html

<bruce_bailey> Labels or instructions are provided where parts require interaction beyond (simple click on a link)

<kirkwood> easily understood?

<Cyborg> Every input -- such as texts or graphics -- needs a simple cue or label. Lists of inputs need simple instructions.

<jeanne> Simple instructions can be understood the first time they are read.

<Chuck> Just for comparison: Every input -- such as texts or graphics -- needs an obvious cue or label. Lists of inputs need obvious instructions.

<Cyborg> @Jeanne that could be an added sentence.

<Chuck> I took Cybele's and just played with a synonym.

<Cyborg> the only concern I have withthe word obvious is that it carries judgment.

<Chuck> Oh it does! Mine sounds a bit judgemental.

<Chuck> OBVIOUSLY the word OBVIOUS carries a judgement.

<Cyborg> Every input -- such as texts or graphics -- needs a simple and consistent cue or label, that is visibly obvious.

<Cyborg> and "visibly obvious" for some reason sounds slightly less judgmental than obvious on its own...

<Cyborg> easily visible is better.

<corbb> Every form field that asks for information from the user has nearby posted instructions.

<Cyborg> input = field?

JohnR: I think we need to have a summary statement and then we can break things down into methods for different scenarios.

<Cyborg> I like the concept of "breaking it down" - can that principle be added in the style guide?

<Cyborg> it's very hard to hear who is speaking now...

<Chuck> Cybele: The term I'm use to using for elements on which a user can act is "component". But that is a very broad term.

<Cyborg> who is speaking now?

<Chuck> I don't know. I can make out the words, but I don't know who is speaking.

<Cyborg> i didn't hear everything he said.

<Chuck> BTW: I have to leave in 10 minutes.

JohnR: Another clear way to communicate is through examples

Brent: We are adding personas into our Understandings Documents

<Chuck> Re "another clear way to comminucate is through examples", I used an analogy for Cybele in an effort to explain "programatically determinable", and we both had epiphonies.

<Cyborg> our prototype has these headings: summary, why, who it helps, example (and exception)

<Chuck> s /comminucate/communicate/

<Cyborg> I like the example including a user story.

<Cyborg> conversation to shelf for later - building empathy through user stories, maybe before/after cases

<Chuck> I have not heard "empathy building" before.

<Chuck> 1.3.1 is my favorite standad.

<Chuck> standard.

<Cyborg> link please...

<Cyborg> AT can interpret it from the code

<Cyborg> ?

<Cyborg> programmatically determined = assistive technology can interpret it from the code?

<Cyborg> or must be...

<Chuck> Not JUST assistive technologies.

<Cyborg> external devices must be able to interpret it from the code.

<Cyborg> ?

<Cyborg> external devices (such as assistive technology) must be able to interpret it from the code?

<Chuck> yes.

<Chuck> [Chuck claps]

<Chuck> It's enjoyable working with all of you. In particular, I want to call out how enjoyable it was to spend time with Cybele (given circumstances we got to spend a lot of time together).

<Cyborg> awww thanks Chuck - lovely to meet you too!

<Cyborg> and hopefully again soon - will you be there tomorrow?

Lucy: Do we have a restriction on how long our text can be?

<Chuck> I need to look at the AGWG agenda. I think I'm going to be with Silver. And I think Silver and AGWG have overlap tomorrow.

Brent: Just write it in a way that makes sense and then start whittling it down. A longer, clear description is better than a shorter description full of jargon.

<Cyborg> i plan to be with Silver too, at least for the first half. not sure about the second.

Brent: avoid a wall of text and use bullets

<Chuck> GUILTY!

JohnR: A company called "Common Craft" creates videos that explain complex concepts in ways people can understand

<Cyborg> i don't know if they can hear

<Cyborg> and i can barely hear

<Cyborg> i asked if there are simpler words for semantics and annotation

Lucy: Semantics is the ability to understand the relationships between items - proper order, etc.

<Chuck> Bye guys.

<Chuck> bye ALL

<Cyborg> wait

<Cyborg> chuck - what is next?

<Chuck> wait?

<Cyborg> is it over for day or are they doing more?

<Cyborg> oh no they hung up

<Chuck> My understanding is that is end of day, and tomorrow we meet together on AGWG's webex.

<Cyborg> what is the link and what time?

<Chuck> one moment, grabbing.

<Cyborg> thank goodness you've been here, or i'd be even more lost... lol

<Chuck> LOL

<Chuck> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Meetings/CSUN_2019

<Chuck> Here is the specific link to join webex:

<Chuck> https://www.w3.org/2017/08/telecon-info_ag-ftf

<Chuck> AND...

<Chuck> 8 - 8:30 PT is "setup", so nothing specific happens other than they put together the "call" for us.

<Chuck> 8:30 PT is when it starts.

<Chuck> A combined session of AGWG and Silver (again).

<Cyborg> oh so the afternoon is less specific to Silver?

<Cyborg> i could skip the aft then?

<Cyborg> morning is going over the slides and next steps?

<Chuck> After the morning, AGWG is off on their own again. And Silver has it's own. So in the afternoon we would join Silver direct.

<Chuck> And THOSE links are....

<Chuck> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/2019_CSUN_F2F_Meeting

<Cyborg> oh wait i saw this for Silver:

<Chuck> The specific webex invite page is...

<Cyborg> 8:30 - noon: New AG WG charter discussion Joint discussion led by AG WG chairs in the way you likely already have planned. Review latest Silver editor's draft with AG WG If time allows and it makes sense to do so, to offer more context around where we've ended up. Tuesday afternoon Silver sessions: 1:00 - 2:30 Strategy and prioritization of content creation 3:00 - EOD: Project management definition and documentation (for now and future work)

<Chuck> yes.

<Chuck> And we would join the Silver webex for Tuesday afternoon.

<Cyborg> ok i may or may not be present from 1-3 PM PST

<Cyborg> see you in the morning! nice meeting you :)

<Chuck> Maybe I can fill you in if it's really great stuff :-)

<Chuck> They should be taking notes too.

<Cyborg> great i hope so, that would be wonderful thanks!

<Chuck> k, have a good evening.

<Cyborg> you too! hope to see you in person sometime

<Lauriat_> trackbot, start meeting

<trackbot> Meeting: Silver Community Group Teleconference

<trackbot> Date: 12 March 2019

<jeanne> David Sloan & Sarah Horton Research on Usabilty of WCAG success criteria https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B5oNyVSxTH2mdjJlcE9uREx3Sm8

<Cyborg> is this our room today?

<Cyborg> where are we this morning?

<Lauriat_> We've split up our efforts between the AG WG session (joint discussion on chartering) and a Silver working session: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/2019_CSUN_F2F_Meeting#Tuesday_morning_joint_sessions:

<Lauriat_> Welcome to join either!

<Cyborg> i think i just joined the silver one!

<Cyborg> are we here as well?

<Cyborg> i hear rustling...

<Cyborg> thanks for the link.

<Lauriat_> Just getting started! A couple more folks filtered in, so giving a bit of a buffer.

Combined prototype work

<Lauriat_> Working outline document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4/edit

<LuisG> Here is Lucy's checklist - https://www.ucop.edu/electronic-accessibility/_files/wcag-2.0-checklist.pdf

<Cyborg> is someone scribing?

<Cyborg> would be super helpful if someone could scribe what is happening in Shawn's room

<Cyborg> thanks

<Cyborg> is Shawn's session here? i'm trying to follow both - in the other room now but trying to follow your room through IRC. is anyone scribing?

<RedRoxProjects> I don't think so right now

<Lauriat_> Yep, in here!

<Cyborg> Hi can we please get a scribe?

<Cyborg> A scribe would be so appreciated...

<scribe> Scribe: Jan

Mapping WCAG to Silver


Shawn: We are starting very high level: Focusing on user needs mapping to guidelines, and identifying methods

SC 1.2.3 Audio Description or Media Alternative (Prerecorded): https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#audio-description-or-media-alternative-prerecorded

Lucy: Icon Fonts are being used as text - we need a method for how to use these appropriately

<JohnRochford> Example of text icons (Font Awesome) = https://disabilityinfo.org/advanced-search-4/?search=74074

<JohnRochford> More examples: https://disabilityinfo.org/physicians/azocar-jose-v-m-d/?search=74074

Shawn: This appears to be talking about two different ways to provide alternatives - this is the video equivalent of the previous requirement - you can provide a transcript or an audio description

SC 1.2.4 Captions (Live) - https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#captions-live

Shawn: Mirabai Knight, member of White Coat Captioning - they do captioning for medical - great resource

Audio Description (Prerecorded) - https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#audio-description-prerecorded

SC 1.2.6 Sign Language (Prerecorded) - https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#sign-language-prerecorded

For native signers, sign language is their first language, so reading English brings with it all of the issues that people learning English as a second language might have.

<JohnRochford> Example of sign language interpreting to help the Deaf comprehend captioning of video content: http://bitly.com/ASLdemo

SC 1.2.7 Extended Audio Description (Prerecorded) - https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#extended-audio-description-prerecorded

SC 1.2.8 Media Alternative (Prerecorded) - https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#media-alternative-prerecorded

<Cyborg> where are you all at now? sorry, following the other room as it is a very dynamic discussion

<RedRoxProjects> we are on 1.2.8 SC

Lucy: We might want to put something in the methods that the user should be able to choose to enable or not enable this.

SC 1.2.9 Audio-only (Live) - https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#audio-only-live

Shawn: This one is clumped in with SC 1.2.1 Audio-only and Video-only (Prerecorded), SC 1.2.8 Media Alternative

SC 1.3.1 Info and Relationships - https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#info-and-relationships

Shawn: I would like to flag this as something that needs to be looked at more closely - it seems like it's part of one method within one overarching guideline - we need to evaluate and document the user needs

Lucy: The connections between different types of things need to be understood

Shawn: It's also the overall structure and semantics
... I've noted it right now as having it's own stand-alone space ... we will fill in the user needs later - have noted that semantics need to be visually displayedd.

SC 1.3.2 Meaningful Sequence - https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#meaningful-sequence

Shawn: This is something that is inferred by the order it occurs

Lucy: Representation of order is important

Shri: If the order you're reading something in is important to understanding the content, that needs to be understood.

SC 1.3.3 Sensory Characteristics - https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#sensory-characteristics

Luis and Lucy: Communicate information that can be perceived by multiple levels of ability

Shawn and Lucy: Multiple ways of perceiving and understanding

Shawn: Cues for understanding and operating

SC 1.3.4 Orientation - https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#orientation

Lucy: Enable users to view and interact in whatever orientation they desire

SC 1.3.5 Identify Input Purpose - https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#identify-input-purpose

Shawn: this is narrowing information down to just the user

expose it to the AT and then the AT can do with it what it should.

Shawn: I'm leaving this on its own even thought I think it is related to programmatic order matches visual order, should we lump this in now?

Lucy & Luis: Yes, now.

Success Criterion 1.3.6 Identify Purpose

Shawn: yes this is heavily related to semantics

<Lauriat_> Understanding documentation for Identify Purpose: https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/identify-purpose.html

Luis: Is this saying emojis need to be accessible?

<JohnRochford> Effort at a universal symbol set: https://thenounproject.com/

Jan: This is about allowing people who use symbols for communication to be able to import their familiar communication symbols into the site.

SC 1.4.1 Use of Color - https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#use-of-color - added to SC 1.3.3 Sensory Characteristics

SC 1.4.2 Audio Control - https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#audio-control

Shawn: Enagle the userr to control the audio output.

Lucy: non-consensual sound should not be permitted - it is very disconcerting - not everything opens in new tabs, so you can't just close the tab

Shawn: Enable the user to control the audio output
... enable the user to initiate audio

SC 1.4.3 Contrast (Minimum) - https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#contrast-minimum

Luis: We need to revisit the algorithm that we currently use for contrast - we need to do research into contrast minimum and contrast maximum

Shawn: I would even go so far as to say contrast customizable

Angela: Also people with dyslexia may have trouble with high contrast - it might actually make the text move for them

Lucy: At our University, we did some work with the eye clinic on campus and they told us that borders and spacing actually help the eyes to relax - is that covered?
... we need to bring in people who truly understand vision

Shawn: We need to do some massive user research into this

JohnR: Wayne Dick is an expert in this area

SC 1.4.4 Resize text - https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#resize-text

Angela: Why does this exclude captions

Shawn: This is maybe part of content customization

Luis: Maybe the reason they exclude captions is that you may not control the video that you have on your website.

JohnR: This SC also helps people with cognitive impairments because when you enlarge text, it pushes out other content

Shawn: This SC is kind of a collection of exceptions, so I am rewording this to"enable the user to resize text [within reasonable limits]"

Luis: This is kind of in the giant category of personalization
... in terms of resizing text, we need to make sure that you can resize without loss of content or functionality

Shawn: I think meeting all of the SCs should only be met as long as you don't lose content or functionality

<Cyborg> just joined again

Lucy: Low vision users often want to use their vision, regardless of the level of magnification they might need

<Cyborg> can you please post the link of where we are now? thanks

SC 1.4.5 Images of Text - https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#images-of-text

<Cyborg> https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/images-of-text.html

<Cyborg> pictograph?

Shri: One example might be a picture of historical cave drawing

Cyborg: User stories and maybe before and after demonstrations might be good.

Shawn: We're taking a 20 minute break

<Cyborg> picture of historical cave drawing = pictograph

<Lauriat_> With #ag still going strong, we'll pick up and continue on here.

<LuisG> scribe: LuisG

lauriat: we had just looked at Images of Text; now Contrast enhanced
... easy, we'll just put it next to Contrast (Minimum)
... just a higher contrast minimum
... moving on to Low of No background audio
... maybe not as related to Audio Control as we thought
... I suspect user needs will overlap, but not exclusively the same thing
... i'm going to ignore the captcha or audio logo for now; this sounds more like audio contrast

Amy: for audio that contains primarily speech...the audio doesn't contain background

<Lauriat_> Working outline document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4/edit

Amy: this is really covering 3 things to do. 1) ensure audio doesn't have background sounds, 2) enable user to turn off background sounds or 3) ensure a difference of at least 20 decibels

lucy: how well researched is this one? this might be very hard of hearing/deaf centric, but what about cognitive load?

lauriat: let's flag this saying it needs research
... going to break it up into the three methods

lucy: I like that it's going to be more best practices or practical best practices

amy: encouraging people to do good things instead of trying to achieve a minimum

lauriat: next one, Visual Presentation
... this one has five bullets

<Lauriat_> Line spacing (leading) is at least space-and-a-half within paragraphs, and paragraph spacing is at least 1.5 times larger than the line spacing.

lucy: how about we move to the next SC?

lauriat: Images of Text (No exception) - let's just put this with the other one
... reflow we'll also want Wayne for...let's move on
... welcome Wayne; to catch you up, we're going through the Success Criteria and trying to fit them into the Silver structure
... the one that triggered the request for your attendance was Visual Presentation

lucy: we got a little bogged down on whether some things were consistent or not...we were wondering how to make it a little more consistent

Wayne: yeah, we worked out what the good numbers were

lucy: the confusion was that it was space or

lauriat: space-and-a-half

lucy: but what's a space?

Wayne: you have a standard line height the browser gives you with padding on top and bottom
... if you print a page, that's single spacing.
... it's a pain in the ass to read if you have bad eyes

amy: so it's relative to font size

Wayne: yeah...they call it line-height in CSS

lucy: would clarify be line spacing?

corb: line height instead of line spacing

Wayne: yeah

lauriat: we have a grouping that is conceptualy around customization or adjustment of presentation
... it includes orientation, images of text, resize text, etc.
... Reflow is kind of a different way of getting to the same place
... that to mewould be in that same grouping of being able to view and interact with content at whatever resolution works best
... should we move that up into that group?

Wayne: I think so

lauriat: I'd like to break Visual Presentation into a few methods
... is this an "any of these are true" or "all of these are true?"

Wayne: it could be some, but not necessarily all

lauriat: would the customization of color fit in with this or would it be more under contrast

Wayne: I think in here..addressing text is part of the hardest thing for reading

lauriat: but it feels like a different space. the others deal with dimensions; this deals with color depth and differences which is more in line with color contrast

Wayne: that might be where it goes

lauriat: we have a similar one for low or no background audio
... essentially audio contrast, but that also includes customization

amy: it belongs in both

Wayne: color is the most difficult one...as a priority you have to have your text in a color you can use well. if you have to give up the other stuff, you can live with it
... if I have to read a lot of text in the wrong color my head hurts that day
... we need to have the idea that there's a priority for color

lauriat: the user needs around color contrast and user needs around customization for spatial rendering are going to overlap heavily

lucy: it's okay to be duplicative

Corb: does the website have to have the toggle for changing colors or should it allow you to adjust the color?

wayne: right now the new criteria says the browser allows you to do it

lauriat: there's a lot of spatial text rendering; column width which is not important if have reflow

wayne: everyone with low vision had tunnel vision...if you didn't have that, you had to blow it up and it became tunnel vision
... the reflow was kind of the center

lucy: think of it like looking through a straw

wayne: exactly right

lauriat: I'm going to copy these bullet points in as sub methods

amy: the glossary definition of "block" is "more than one sentence"

jan: I like lucy's definition of "continuous text"

lucy: that definition refers to bullet point

lauriat: and it would exclude the name of the document being super long
... I'm going to put a note that it needs further research
... and that this is irrelevant if you can reflow the text

amy: with the bullet points are they all applicable to continuous text?
... so would it be rendering of continuous text?

lucy: I think keeping it where it is is good

lauriat: with continuous text, the third bullet brings up spacing between paragraphs, but it might not be continuous text
... it could be not just continuous text that this would apply to

lucy: for justified text, would it be "not fully justified" or "not left and not right" justified

wayne: justified common usage is to make left and right margins go in straight lines

John: the problem with full justified is rivers of white

lucy: can we add the word "full" to it?

wayne: you coud, but it's not used that way much anymore

lucy: can we add a note to avoid the "rivers of white?"

corb: another problem with full justification is having spaces around one word on a line

lauriat: the next one is line spacing (leading); these three things are specific directives on rendering without customization

lucy: why do we have leading, but not ending?

corb: what do you mean by "ending?"

lucy: below the body before you get to the footer...should there be a separate spacing?
... from body to footer, from body to additional content

lauriat: seems more in line with overall intention - between a paragraph and next meaningful chunk of stuff, you have sufficient line spcing

lucy: should it be bigger?

lauriat: paragraph spacing covers that..line spacing is the one that says "leading"

lucy: maybe it's another place to group; line spacing vs paragraph spacing

lauriat: i'm getting that this SC is really two different things
... here is a set of rules for rending text and
... text can be resized...and that's the customization aspect
... and that overlaps with the previous one as well as reflow

wayne: one other things that's customization...letter and word spacing

lucy: this can be great when it's done

<corbb> Scribe: corbb

Lauriat: text rendering should be separated
... also copying visual presentation into its own space as well…visual presentation is in color contrast, orientation, resize text, customization of rendering and elsewhere

…separate from those is what we just talked through (guideline placeholder of “text rendering…”.

Lauriat: Moving on to reflow

…heavily related to customization of rendering. Startingby copying it in there

<Lauriat_> [breaking for lunch and then we'll start up again in a bit]

<Lauriat_> We'll start up again at 1:00pm.

Lauriat: Reflow is pretty straightforward. Two related points…

…We’re isolating the “scrolling in two dimensions”

Lucy: Let’s go back to the user … “If a user requires the font size to increase — they aren’t required to scroll horizontally.”

Wayne: or two-dimensionally for CJK

Lauriat: Reflow, as we talked about before, put with “other customizations of rendering / spacial rendering”

Lauriat: This is one particular aspect of customization…squish down to 320px wide or 256px tall, all is available to the user without 2D scrolling

Lauriat: how can we re-phrase to center this on the user?

Wayne: content should word-wrap to fit the viewport … Jeanne: available space

John: If scrolling is required, enable user to scroll one way

<Jan> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4/edit?usp=sharing

Lauriat: what about 3 dimensions of scrolling? Should we tackle that heroe?

Lucy: spreadsheets?

Lauriat: macOS Time Machine presents 2d info but you can scroll in a third dimension of time … but if everything is zoomed in, then you have to travel in 3-dimensions

…flagging as tackle later

…now this is in customization of spacial rendering, which goes beyond text. If page is within a 356 px wide, then you shouldn’t lose page functionality even if content scrolls. That’s what i’m trying to collect here is all the things that fall within the intention

Wayne: there are other contexts where meaning of content is 2d or 3d. That’s why we put in “tables”…you have to align the content to maintain meaning.

Lauriat: Noted exception in a comment on this method b/c haven’t been including exceptions in this exercise. But this is solid enough that we should note this in the overall point.

<Cyborg> where are we now?

Lauriat: Moving to non-text contrast.

<Cyborg> can someone post link again please?


Lauriat: Text spacing next

<Cyborg> can't find it...

Lauriat: Must allow customization of these attributes

Wayne: this is what really revewaled need for Silver, as we needed all these qualifications

…spacial rendering for viewport Lauriat: vs. specifically text rendering. May want to break into two.

<Jan> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4/edit?usp=sharing

<Cyborg> that one works, but where are we in document?

<LuisG> basically Shawn is adding content to the document as we're discussing

Lauriat: want to remove qualifier “text style properties” so as to highlight platforms that do not support this

Jeanne: the outlined parameters need research

Lauriat: Check and validate research on all these. It’s potentially in “understanding” docs

Wayne: we did a lot of calculation to get to these numbers. Will share the calculations from MS Word to “em”

Wayne: should we move reflow with these?

Lauriat: splitting apart based on technical aspects of them. Reflow is very much around viewport size. Lumping together viewport rendering and sizing into same bucket.

Lauriat: moving to final SC in perceivable…content on hover or focus.

Lucy: don’t like mention of “content”

Lauriat: This is too narrowly focused that even if it follows fundamental interaction pattern, might not apply

Lauriat: first method might be don’t have flyover content. Even if this SC is written because ly-over frustrates low vision users.

Jan: in-line glossary definitions in assessments. Problem we have is that low-vision users with such high zoom is that as you move down, the content disappers.

Lauriat: When you move mouse over thing that appears; what you’re describing is if they move over scroll bar.

…don’t trigger fly-over on hover or focus, let this be a link until the user closes the panel

Lauriat: agreed; also more mobile friendly

Lauriat: we should flag that we’re having trouble moving this into Silver because we are talking about guidelines covering behavior that we don’t want in the first place

Lauriat: maybe we have one level of method that’s this … and then another method for more points that doesn’t use this pattern at all

LuisG: can we keep spirit of it without the letter of it?
... the way we meet user need is by making other suggestion, which is also including this.

Wayne: low vision guidelines outline problems of writing guidelines. Had to be testable, yes/no, etc. when you go through those rules, this is what you get. I strongly support idea of user control when this comes up. Part of user need is that you can control the flyout, explore the enlarged version. Lots of positive actions about how flyovers behave.

LuisG: we’ll have more of this through the operable criteria.

Corbb: doesn’t this open up lots of “don’t…” like carousels, autoplay

Lauriat: stick with positive phrasing of don’t display content that user hasn’t explicitly requested

…granted phrasing needs revision

Lauriat: First item in Operable…keyboard

Jeanne: this was part of how silver started. Mobile a11y task force started as wanting to broaden keyboard to pointer devices. Limited by not changing “old” SC so we aded new SC around pointer events. So — i propose we broaden keyboard.

Lucy: user must be able to manipulate or change parts of interface in ways including but not limited to … keyboard, swiping, clicking, selecting with a switch, etc.

Lauriat: We have a 2.1 SC that almost gets there…concurrent input mechanisms. It’s AAA

Lauriat: first benefit is users can use the input mechanism they want at any time

Lucy: some devs have said that multiple input devices pose security risks.

Jan: let’s add security needs research and investigation

LuisG: there would be some overall, general exceptions to all methods.

Wayne: do we need new category: just for security dealing with a11y?

Lauriat: an aspect not covered by 2.1.1 is “timing of individual keystrokes”…but timing in that case is related to 2 other SC under input modalities and motion actuation

Lauriat: with specific timing for keyboard interactions, that’s more at level measured in tenths of seconds up to, say, 10 seconds. Bank timeouts are more in the nature of 10 minutes.

Lucy: CAPTCHAs were failing because of path traveled to get to a button.

Lauriat: that’s different…this is the physical interactions including verbal bbetween you and the hardware.

Wayne: speech users who dictate slowly would be same as someone who types slowly

Lauriat: adding two bullets under methods. Fundamental support of emchanisms. Second, timing of interactions with input mechanisms

Lauriat: next up … no keyboard trap

Lucy: user must never be in a situation where input mechanism cannot work?

Lauriat: group with “support input mechanisms” overall.

Lauriat: the way this is worded, it allows keyboard traps. Only talks about movingf away from a component. Say you end up in a non-modal dialog but page hasn’t implemented shortcut to move from modal to page. Then you’re in a keyboard trap but you can move around the modal

Lauriat: with keyboard trap…rather make this more generic to all input nmechanisms.

Lucy: that doesn’t include how to get out / escape from

Lauriat: challenge is that WCAG requires element-based wording and we’re describing use case.

LuisG: still need method for keyboard traps. If user can get to something with a keyboard, then they should be able to get away.

Lauriat: for now, note to avoid traps … need to word positively … and link to non-interference ‘

Lauriat: Put keyboard no exceptions to keyboard as we already ruled out exceptions

Lauriat: Moving to character key shortcuts.

Lauriat:problem with this is that it inherently says “don’t do this”

LuisG: three diferent methods, one for each bullet in the SC

Lauriat:agreed but last one fits in with category of robust

Luis: and re-map goes with customization

Lucy: another method we could create is that we need to visually display keyboard shortcuts

Corbb: need to be careful that we don’t use visually

Lucy: use word discoverable

Lauriat: going to make two guideline levels. 1 customizability of interactions and 2 interacitons on focus specific to component

Break for 30 min

Project Planning

<Lauriat_> Silver Project Plan working document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zFgVcDUMSOrZ5nnGRocs2pZYkqOhwdyMU_Z62_CedbQ/edit

<Jan> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zFgVcDUMSOrZ5nnGRocs2pZYkqOhwdyMU_Z62_CedbQ/edit

<Jan> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zFgVcDUMSOrZ5nnGRocs2pZYkqOhwdyMU_Z62_CedbQ/edit

<Lauriat_> Silver Project Plan working document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zFgVcDUMSOrZ5nnGRocs2pZYkqOhwdyMU_Z62_CedbQ/edit

<Lauriat_> trackbot, end meeting

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2019/03/13 00:12:10 $

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Default Present: jeanne, Chuck, JF, Charles, AngelaAccessForAll, shari, Lauriat, Jennison, Cyborg, Jan, LuisG, KimD, JohnRochford, Lauriat_, RedRoxProjects, bruce_bailey, corbb, Makoto, kirkwood, RedRoxProjects_
Present: jeanne Chuck JF Charles AngelaAccessForAll shari Lauriat Jennison Cyborg Jan LuisG KimD JohnRochford Lauriat_ RedRoxProjects bruce_bailey corbb Makoto kirkwood RedRoxProjects_
Found Scribe: Jan
Inferring ScribeNick: Jan
Found Scribe: Jan
Inferring ScribeNick: Jan
Found Scribe: LuisG
Inferring ScribeNick: LuisG
Found Scribe: corbb
Inferring ScribeNick: corbb
Scribes: Jan, LuisG, corbb
ScribeNicks: Jan, LuisG, corbb
Found Date: 11 Mar 2019
People with action items: 

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