Verifiable Credentials Working Group Telco — Minutes

Date: 2023-03-15

See also the Agenda and the IRC Log

Attendees

Present: Brent Zundel, Sten Reijers, Shigeya Suzuki, Gabe Cohen, Manu Sporny, Dave Longley, Kristina Yasuda, Joe Andrieu, Kevin Griffin, Andres Uribe, David Waite, Daniel Hardman, Michael Jones, Phillip Long, PhilF, Samuel Smith, Ted Thibodeau Jr., Kevin Dean, Orie Steele, Shawn Butterfield, Drummond Reed, Markus Sabadello, Mahmoud Alkhraishi, Dmitri Zagidulin, Steve McCown, Paul Dietrich, Oliver Terbu, Kerri Lemoie, Chris Abernethy, Christopher Allen

Regrets:

Guests:

Chair: Kristina Yasuda

Scribe(s): Kerri Lemoie

Content:

Phillip Long: phil-ASU has joined #vcwg.

Kristina Yasuda: agenda is work items proposals and some existing work items, and PRs from special topics call, maybe issues if have time.
… Welcome Mike Prorock as editor of vcwjwt as announced on the mailing list..

Kerri Lemoie: Introductions?.

1. ECDSA Data Integrity Cryptosuite as a work item.

Manu Sporny: Demonstration of Support for ECDSA Cryptosuite Adoption into VCWG: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-credentials/2023Mar/0095.html.

Manu Sporny: About ECDSA - transitioned from CCG to final report last June. Signatures of support went out to the mailing list. 21 signatures from implementers and W3C members..
… purpose to have a crypto security suite for hardware.

Kevin Griffin: acdc work item updated with new language and resubmitted for agenda.

Kristina Yasuda: we’ll stick to ecdsa item for the moment…..
… seeking consensus on this call to pursue this work item.
… any suggestions to change this proposal?.

Proposed resolution: Adopt the ECDSA Cryptosuite (https://w3c-ccg.github.io/vc-di-ecdsa/) as a work item in the VCWG with a preliminary short name of ‘vc-di-ecdsa’.. (Kristina Yasuda)

Phillip Long: +1.

Dave Longley: +1.

Brent Zundel: +1.

Kevin Dean: +1.

Manu Sporny: +1.

Orie Steele: 0.

Oliver Terbu: +1.

Ted Thibodeau Jr.: +1.

Sten Reijers: +1.

Joe Andrieu: +1.

Michael Jones: 0.

Markus Sabadello: +1.

Mahmoud Alkhraishi: +1.

Kerri Lemoie: +1.

Shigeya Suzuki: +1.

Steve McCown: +1.

PhilF: +1.

Shawn Butterfield: +1.

David Waite: 0.

Samuel Smith: 0.

Andres Uribe: 0.

Kevin Griffin: +1.

Gabe Cohen: +1.

Dmitri Zagidulin: +1.

Kristina Yasuda: Officially adopting ECDSA Cryptosuite as a work item.

Resolution #1: Adopt the ECDSA Cryptosuite (https://w3c-ccg.github.io/vc-di-ecdsa/) as a work item in the VCWG with a preliminary short name of ‘vc-di-ecdsa’..

2. ACDC Work Item.

Kristina Yasuda: Any additions or discussion for ACDC work item?.

Orie Steele: can we explain the details of the IETF changes?.

Manu Sporny: Positive: likes IETF changes, positive signal that members of the community are in favor, not a heavy lift, mirrors vcjwt– positive but won’t be able to work on it..

Samuel Smith: has been communicating acdc is various groups and quite a bit of understanding. Focused on acdc in production and now will be able to focus on the spec work at various groups..
… ACDC is complete spec that just needs to be socialized.
… Work item allows us to pursue this even though it isn’t an existing standard..

Ted Thibodeau Jr.: IETF BOFs: https://www.ietf.org/how/bofs/.

Samuel Smith: the plan is to do BoF at IETF which is one step before this becomes a working group..

Orie Steele: it took SATP 3 IETF meetings to get a WG…. and several years..

Samuel Smith: this will be done in July in SF.

Orie Steele: Feels that resolution from face to face allows for mappings from the vc model to be constructed outside of the wg. This WG isn’t required to do these mappings. One of the opportunities if it isn’t in the wg is that others outside this group could work at it..
… what’s the document level requirements?.

Dave Longley: +1 to Joe on the resolution.

Dave Longley: +1 to Joe’s very important distinction.

Orie Steele: -1 to that interpretation of the resolution, that was not my understanding..

Orie Steele: We specifically discussed mDoc, in this context..

Joe Andrieu: This group will register a media type - vc+ld+json what we did not say is that other groups with media types (some other mapping) are not necessarily VCs..

Orie Steele: I am fine to clear the q, and just process vc-acdc..

Orie Steele: Can we include the latest draft here for the minutes?.

Kevin Griffin: to reponds to kristina’s request for the url: https://weboftrust.github.io/vc-acdc/.

Kevin Griffin: DRAFT PROPOSAL: Adopt the W3C vc-acdc transformation specification with the acknowledgement that the underlying normative references will need to progress to Last Call in IETF Working Groups (or other equivalent) before the vc-acdc specification can progress to W3C Candidate Recommendation which would include normative references to the KERI, ACDC and CESR specifications. Short name ‘vc-acdc’.

Orie Steele: Yes, that answers the question, the references must be to a document in WGLC at IETF..

Kevin Griffin: clarify where would the document barriers be: before any normative references about acdc would be included in vc spec, they’d be accepted at IETF.

Kevin Griffin: Apologies for the irc mistake.

Samuel Smith: +1 to CAllen note but not exclusively.

Joe Andrieu: Yes, mappings from media types to the VC media type. That doesn’t make the new media types VCs. It makes them transformable to VCs.

Samuel Smith: +1 Manu to more transformations to help refine the approach.

Orie Steele: The resolution says those are “native vc’s”… they are VCs, they a mapping exists, and the mapping can be defined anywhere..

Dave Longley: To save time and not take us further off topic: My understanding is that the resolution was that any other representations of VCs that this working group, the VCWG, defines will need to express a transformation mapping – which must be either done in a spec in this group or in a spec this group can reference..

Kevin Griffin: +1 Manu, that is the language we added..

Orie Steele: sry, I am still looking for a citation on the WGLC bit, in the document..

Orie Steele: is that here: https://weboftrust.github.io/vc-acdc/ ?.

Joe Andrieu: @orie, I don’t recall the word “native” in the resolution..

Orie Steele: ahh, i understand.

Orie Steele: Where is the language for the references to IETF in the proposal?.

Christopher Allen: A procedure question: Do we need a resolution now (given deadlines) to have as a goal for a note about transformation?.

Christopher Allen: I also don’t want it limited to ACDC..

Kristina Yasuda: DRAFT PROPOSAL: Adopt the W3C vc-acdc transformation specification with the acknowledgement that the underlying normative references will need to progress to Last Call in IETF Working Groups (or other equivalent) before the vc-acdc specification can progress to W3C Candidate Recommendation which would include normative references to the KERI, ACDC and CESR specifications. Short name ‘vc-acdc’.

Gabe Cohen: +0.

Proposed resolution: Adopt the W3C vc-acdc transformation specification with the acknowledgement that the underlying normative references will need to progress to Last Call in IETF Working Groups (or other equivalent) before the vc-acdc specification can progress to W3C Candidate Recommendation which would include normative references to the KERI, ACDC and CESR specifications. Short name ‘vc-acdc’. (Kristina Yasuda)

PhilF: +1.

Manu Sporny: +0.5.

Daniel Hardman: +1.

Michael Jones: 0.

Kevin Griffin: +1.

Dave Longley: +0.5.

Orie Steele: -1.

Andres Uribe: 0.

Paul Dietrich: +1.

Kevin Dean: +1.

Christopher Allen: -1 if it is limited to acdc.

Sten Reijers: 0.

Shigeya Suzuki: 0.

Dmitri Zagidulin: +0.

Joe Andrieu: +.5.

David Waite: +0.

Shawn Butterfield: +1.

Steve McCown: 0.

Samuel Smith: +1.

Gabe Cohen: +0.

Ted Thibodeau Jr.: +0.5.

Oliver Terbu: 0.

Phillip Long: +.5.

Kristina Yasuda: -1 from Mesur.io.

Brent Zundel: +1.

Joe Andrieu: @Christopher, this is specific to a particular work item, not a general strategy for adopting any mappable representation.

Markus Sabadello: +0.5.

Mahmoud Alkhraishi: -1.

Orie Steele: reason for the -1, is that, while I agree waiting for WGLC at IETF is good, I would prefer to not spend time reviewing or contributing to a document based on references that have not made it to RFC… and as I said before, this work can progress outside this WG..

Ted Thibodeau Jr.: what is the mechanism for other representations to come in if we’re letting ACDC in now when in feature freeze? Is there no path for others?.

Christopher Allen: @tallted +1 - it feels like a premature lock-in..

Ted Thibodeau Jr.: how can other representations achieve the same status. A registry or directory? Then should ACDC belong there too?.

Orie Steele: ACDC should go to the VC Specs directory where it can be incubated outside of this working group..
… It would still be a valid format if not worked on in this group..

Samuel Smith: If that is true interpretation then vc-jwt does not need to be part of the spec either. Either all transformation go through the steps to be a valid external proof or not..

Dave Longley: +1 to SamSmith.

Orie Steele: VC-ACDC work item not necessary because mapping can be done outside of the WG..

Manu Sporny: +1 to Sam.

Kevin Griffin: +1 to Sam, that is what I qued to say.

Christopher Allen: Still -1 on the proposal, for reasons stated after..

Phillip Long: +1 to Sam.

Samuel Smith: Is it not true that refusal to accept a work item can’t be based on not wanting to contribute work?.

Ted Thibodeau Jr.: that does not feel like we’ve reached consensus yet..

Kristina Yasuda: not comfortable consensus has been reached..

Kevin Griffin: The authors thank the chairs.

Brent Zundel: chairs will continue the discussion and let the group know..

Christopher Allen: Is there then not more discussion on how to resolve the -1s?.

Shawn Butterfield: lolz @ Orie.

Sten Reijers: lol orie.

Ted Thibodeau Jr.: discussing/addressing the -1’s could be well taken to the mailing list….

Drummond Reed: I do see a lot of support for the proposal – and it makes for a bigger tent. I also believe Christopher’s work should be able to be in the big tent..

Christopher Allen: I would like to see acdc to move forward, but just avoid a lock-in..

Manu Sporny: we do have rough consensus because there is a lot of support and -1 aren’t technical concerns..

Dave Longley: +1 to manu.

Manu Sporny: defer to chairs.

Joe Andrieu: This proposal has nothing to do with Christopher’s work.

Christopher Allen: Not just for me, there may be others emerging..

Shawn Butterfield: Agree.

Orie Steele: ^ +1 to answering the question..

Samuel Smith: Will answering Christopher_Allen’s question change the rough consensus?.

Orie Steele: +1 Christopher_Allen.

Orie Steele: This has been my point..

Joe Andrieu: -1 Christopher Allen.

Christopher Allen: if other groups can demonstrate that they can be a vc are they a vc or do they need to be in the directory?.

Orie Steele: I think the day 3 resolution is dead at this point… clearly it is not interpreted consistently..

Christopher Allen: I’ll move to +0 — I’ll not block..

Brent Zundel: Christopher_Allen the +1 is only for acdc to be a work item.

Christopher Allen: is being a work item now becoming a new way to limit innovation?.
… not blocking.

Kevin Griffin: I actually resonate with Christopher Allens concern.

Christopher Allen: Can we get a formal proposal that?.

Manu Sporny: That’s not the intent and day 3 resolution not being interpreted the same by everyone. Do not need approval form the working group to get in the directory..

Orie Steele: For the record, vc-jwt is based on documents that made it to RFC, prior to being even developed in relation to W3C documents. This is my technical objection to the vc-acdc work..

Orie Steele: And again, vc-adc can be called a VC without being worked on at this group, according to my interpretation of day 3 resolution..

Orie Steele: and the same would apply to vc-gordion..

Samuel Smith: We can recharter and extend for vc2.1 should as vc-gordian which we want to support..

Christopher Allen: Gordian will take longer, which is why I’ve not proposed it ;-).

Ted Thibodeau Jr.: I remain concerned that this is effectively vc-acdc “blessing”, and disturbed that the same voices which are against DID method “blessing” are not voicing the same against vc-acdc “blessing”. Other specs (like vc-gordian) need a path to reach the same “blessed” state, whatever that state really is (listed in a directory? a registry? something else that is NOT work within VCWG which has feature frozen)..

Samuel Smith: Can chair address how we recharter for 2.1.

Ted Thibodeau Jr.: Orie - I don’t know what could be seen as a blank check….

Joe Andrieu: +1 to Manu - being in the directory doesn’t mean it’s a VC..

Oliver Terbu: +1 as long it points to the media type mapping spec.

Orie Steele: ahh, that is it… this working group is the only WG that can register VC media types… is that the interpretation of day 3?.

Joe Andrieu: other media types can be mappable to the primary media type. VCACDC is its own media type. Other orgs can register their own media type but this WG approves media types related to VCs and meet requirements..

Christopher Allen: W3C VC is different than VC..

Orie Steele: interpretation that other wg can register media types for VCs as long as they define a mapping not just this group.

Dave Longley: the only authority this WG has is to say whether something is a W3C VC or not.

Joe Andrieu: this wg doesn’t have the authority to prevent other groups from submitting media types.

Orie Steele: anyone that defines a mapping to a vc makes it a vc.

Dave Longley: +1 to Joe, conforming to the VCDM is what is required and what is key..

Joe Andrieu: it needs to be conformant to VC spec though.

Orie Steele: Ok, sounds to me like VCWG does not control if application/vc+.... and in fact anyone can register media types, that a bi-directional or unidirectional mapping exists is the only requirement per day 3..

Oliver Terbu: need a way to register media type with mapping. Whoever suggests a mapping provides a test suite to demonstrate the mapping to prove they are compliant with VCs.

Samuel Smith: In Miami we talked about the freeze and process and that other proposals still have opportunities to be part of the 2.1 process.

Joe Andrieu: @orie, we control the registration of vc+ld+json, and any other media types we create. other media types are other peoples business..

Kristina Yasuda: get through 2.0 before 2.1 and rechartering.

Kristina Yasuda: draft proposal: vc extensions directory will have an entry for the documents that define the mappings to vcdm and these document can be defined outside W3C VC WG..

Oliver Terbu: +1.

Daniel Hardman: +1.

Samuel Smith: +1.

Christopher Allen: +1.

Proposed resolution: vc extensions directory will have an entry for the documents that define the mappings to vcdm and these document can be defined outside W3C VC WG.. (Kristina Yasuda)

Orie Steele: +1.

Daniel Hardman: +1.

Dave Longley: +1.

Shawn Butterfield: +1.

Sten Reijers: +1.

David Waite: +1.

Shigeya Suzuki: +1.

Gabe Cohen: +1.

Manu Sporny: +1.

Christopher Allen: +1.

Markus Sabadello: +1.

Ted Thibodeau Jr.: +1.

Mahmoud Alkhraishi: +1.

Steve McCown: +1.

Andres Uribe: +1.

Joe Andrieu: +1.

Phillip Long: +1.

Oliver Terbu: +1 if some sort of test suite is also provided.

Michael Jones: -1.

PhilF: +1.

Dmitri Zagidulin: +1 (agree with oliver that test suite might be a good requirement).

Kristina Yasuda: resolution passed in Miami didn’t require test suite. It’s important but it should be kept out right now..

Joe Andrieu: sure. multiple transformations are possible, but I’d recommend you standardize on one.

Dave Longley: +1 to Joe.

Ted Thibodeau Jr.: it says “the mappings” plural….

Kristina Yasuda: draft proposal: vc extensions directory will have an entry for the documents that define possible mappings to vcdm and these document can be defined outside W3C VC WG.

Kerri Lemoie: Michale Jones: there could be multiple mappings.

Manu Sporny: change to “vc specifications directory”.

Ted Thibodeau Jr.: “possible” implies that the mapping may not be compliant.

Kristina Yasuda: should be mapped fully.

Kristina Yasuda: draft PROPOSAL: VC spec directory will have an entry for documents that define a mapping to VCDM and these documents can be defined outside W3C VCWG..

Samuel Smith: mapping of MUSTs is not the same as mapping of MAy or SHOULD.

Gabe Cohen: +1.

Proposed resolution: VC spec directory will have an entry for documents that define a mapping to VCDM and these documents can be defined outside W3C VCWG.. (Kristina Yasuda)

Michael Jones: 0.

Dave Longley: +1.

Ted Thibodeau Jr.: +1.

Daniel Hardman: +1.

Joe Andrieu: +1.

Christopher Allen: +1.

Manu Sporny: +🦙 (llama – which is a positive vote).

Samuel Smith: +1.

Oliver Terbu: +1.

Shigeya Suzuki: +1.

Shawn Butterfield: +1.

Sten Reijers: +1.

Orie Steele: +1.

Steve McCown: +1.

Kerri Lemoie: +1.

Andres Uribe: +1.

Mahmoud Alkhraishi: +1.

Dmitri Zagidulin: +1.

David Waite: +1.

PhilF: +1.

Phillip Long: +1.

Resolution #2: VC spec directory will have an entry for documents that define a mapping to VCDM and these documents can be defined outside W3C VCWG..

Michael Jones: https://twitter.com/LoginLlama.

Kristina Yasuda: does this resolution change anyone’s mind about acdc work item vote?.

Dmitri Zagidulin: so then wait, given this directory, what’s the value in a wg work item?.

Phillip Long: +1 decentralgabe on camels ;-).

Kristina Yasuda: chairs will discuss acdc work item resolution.
… have a call about directory entries soon.

3. Resolutions