<shawn> minutes: https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/EOWG_Meetings_2017#19-20_May_2017_Face-to-Face
Shawn: much of the time we were working on the redesign. We did a lot on the home page design and IA and policies page.
Robert: We talked about the charter
Shawn: While at AccessU we did some user testing and web site design and IA and policies page
<shawn> draft: https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/DevIntro/Mobile
Judy: Set expectations for the reading break. Questions are listed in adenda. Preview version is setup for mini personas. Our preference is to have this out of the mobile guide. The question is should they be listed or linked? When you're reading or skimming please look at that. Candidates success criteria - how to list those, how integrated should they be; 2 other things that would help. 2 code examples - feedback? document maintenance, mobile is changing - looking at tricks to maintain document - 3 pages link from landing page
scribe: Reading break
Robert: Here is the draft https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/DevIntro/Mobile
Shawn: 2 differrent options? I see option that is in there. So there's not 2 options just the notes
Judy: not sure what happened - I'm seeing that now. Wanted to add one thing
Shawn: how to integrate the information that is not in 2.0. Page 2 1.3 has the stuff that is already in 1.4 ?
Judy: that's not what it should be. Page 2 should be is stuff that is already in 2.0 and page 3 should be areas under development. Further discussion - pointed out what be possible to do add a slightly different layer - to be continued. Tips and techniques - 1/2 way down note from Ken... something got scrambled on the formatting it is presentated a neutral format as possible. Still planning to leverage the carefully formatted layout. Have some distinct layout conventions. Related to the tutorials. Questions?
scribe: Reading break
<Andrew> regrets from Andrew - IRC works but no web page will load in any or my browsers, so I can't access webex or any links posted in IRC
Denis: I think we should get someone like Susan to also read (and comment) this document. (will ping her and ask for her feedback)
Judy: thanks everyone. I realize that the different view is presented as a note. Go to the first page Mobile concepts page. This is following what was in the outline. There have been a few changes to the content. Who it's for, what mobile is about. Mobile developer trying to get what accessibility is about. Feedback needed on why it's important. There's a paragraph and a note on what we were wondering about one of the approaches was to show mini personas. We have gotten feedback to perhaps put these personas in How PWD use the web. This is an interim step
... a quick way of getting acquainted with or a section linking to How PWD Use the web. So my question to you all is: What is the best wasy to engage a developer landing straight on the content. What are your thoughts?
Norah: My first thought is I like it. It's nice to have access. Easy to read.
Caleb: I would make sure of the content. As a developer, I love the personas. Other guidance - I would chunk each of the main sections and make it its own page. They probably read about other stuff as their browsing
<Judy> [jb grabbing notes for resource authors here]
<lkee> Title - "There's no such thing as mobile"- is provocative
<Judy> [jb - personas - norah - like the succinct mini-personas right there handy, maybe keep them]
<lkee> Mobile app development
Judy: Trying to reflect perspective that mobile is a continuum. Once you get into native, there are distinct difference that a developer has to worry about and there are similarities as well.
Norah: I flagged that too. Would suggest "Developing for mobile only, "no such thing?"
Judy: The authors were actually trying to be provocative. So are you suggesting to keep the provocative ? I wasn't clear what you were saying. Or are are you suggesting to restructure 1st page
Caleb: I am trying to visualize how will it fit into the new design. The word mobile means native to most developers. more important than the descriptions are the tech docs. We need to raise the importance of those - as a developer just tell me what I have to do
<shadi> +1 many associate "mobile" and "app" with "native"
<Judy> [jb - structure - caleb - careful because some of your developer-readers will automatically assume "mobile" = "native"]
Denis: we probably just need to be more specific.. such as "there's no such thing as mobile web" as opposed to just "mobile"
Judy: Caleb is making an important point, collection of developer/readers who will see mobile and assume native. I keep seeing this intro not making that assumption and speaking to broader audience. So this may need to be added up front to orient people.
... And about the formatting - as you view this today, we wanted a neutral format but have had discussions to move it away from the wiki presentation and align it more closely to the tutorials. Try to picture something that riffs off the tutorials.
Caleb: Once you get into that template, it will be chunked on separate pages, and the new web site design will drive some of that. I am not so worried about that as the sections that need to be distinct around mobile web, apps, wearables, etc.
Judy: I expect there to be granularity to allow people to land on the section of interest.
Denis: I want to go back to the initial question about the personas. Like most people, I like the idea of them. In this context however, the approach needs to be a bit different. Developers will be looking for technical guidance. I think the persona section is less likely to hold their attention.
<Judy> [jb - wording - caleb - mobile - careful to clarify to audience up front that "mobile" here is broader than "native" only]
Denis: if we use a bit more story telling, use concrete examples of how people struggle when implementation goes wrong or there are failures to manage focus or something else that is specific and clear. They will not want to think about what the implications are but need the problem spelled out clearly.
Judy: So you are saying we need to think about the utility of having these by tieing them to a specific problem or referring back to them?
<Judy> [jb - persona thumbnails - denis - spoonfeed the technical tie-in about what the personas are struggling with on mobile. make the problems more distinct]
Denis: Could start the entire document by describing how a mobile user struggles due to a disability. If I had to choose, I would not put the personas on the first page, they will skim past. First page should focus on what they expect to find - answers to technical problems.
Judy: Yes we have heard that.
Shawn: One of the primary things is that it feels a bit like this is the users problem. I strongly support the approach Denis suggessted that we put a strong filter on the fact that it was a mistake in the coding, development of the resource.
<dboudreau> @shawn - correct
Robert: I really like the discussion so far and have another question - I am trying to understand more clearly if we have researched the intended audience. In the conversation, we are making many guesses about what people may want and is there an option to hear directly from our intended audience?
Judy: No we have not had the opportunity to do that research so some of what is assumed here for needs has been from non-scientific interactions with developers - both mobile developers who don't know much about accessiiblity and desktop developers who are learning about mobile. We don't have the research you ask for and don't have a way to do that quickly.
Shawn: But you do have a requirements doc?
Judy: Yes
<Judy> [jb - persona thumbnails - shawn - careful to emphasize in personas what the developers can do, it is not only users' "fault"]
<Judy> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Tutorial_Outline:_Mobile_Overview
<Judy> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Tutorial_Mockup_Mobile_Overview
<Judy> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/New_Accessibility_Tutorials_Requirements_Analysis
Judy: Robert, is there something specific that you want to suggest or any reaction to the personas?
Robert: I like the idea of the personas to help developers think about this and to realize other ways that people may use their work. I think there is value as well in keeping things as technical as possible and quickly get to the heart of what they need.
<Judy> [jb - personas - robert - these can be helpful - but keep them compact and tied to technical contact]
Norah: I also had a similar reaction to the title - there's no such thing as mobile. Wanted to follow up with that reaction, it was startling - may want to rethink that.
Judy: and was it off-puttin?
<Judy> [jb - "no such thing" heading - norah - bit of a jolt - important concept but reword it?]
Norah: It made me stop and question. I think I understand the concept now but may want to rework to "no such think as development for mobile alone" or something.
Denis: Maybe "there is no such thing as mobile web" in response to Caleb's earlier comment.
Judy: Wondering if that could cause a layer of confusion the other way.
Sharron: I like the jolting effect, it works.
Denis: Well, if we feel that it would not work in either direction, it should be removed.
... either another doc that explains the difference or not have it at all.
Shadi: My overall reaction to the draft is a mild one in that I see two purposes here. The first page seems more based on the Concepts idea of the tutorials and is quite detailed. Maybe a higher level opening. For the developers it really starts on page 2 where they get the guidance they are looking for. Then the third page, the relationship to 2.1 seems to be asking for trouble since the expectations can be frustrated and it will need to be closely monitored and maintained. Regardless of 2.1 many of these points are good in any case. The part about touch for example, which is a good one no matter what happens with 2.1
Judy: May be a way to address the two audiences at the top. If you are an x or a y kind of user, hello and this is what you will find here. In terms of monitoring, they are trying to modularize to increase the ability to easily manage as 2.1 evolves.
<Judy> [jb - audiences - shadi - aim it more distinctly or explicitly?]
Shawn: To reply to that point, the first page may need to be short and then point to the meat. Some of the background may be superfluous and may not be needed by all audiences.
... I have been putting notes about the conversation and will put them in GitHUb so we can add additional comment.
Judy: I want to caution people against wholesale or sweeping suggestions since we have limited development time and appreciate keeping comments in scope with that.
<Judy> [jb - intro - shawn - minimize what to wade through]
<Judy> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/DevIntro/Mobile/GuidanceTechniques
Judy: On page 2, we begin to get into more specifics. Introduces WCAG2 UAAG2 and I think it has nice materials and guidance for what to bear in mind when developing for mobile. Then is a guide on how to use the other tutorials for mobile. Eventually it may be more integrated into those and is an attempt to get people to the right stuff with the right expectation. Feedback for this page, I would encourage you to submit to Github.
<Judy> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/DevIntro/Mobile/Upcoming
<shadi> +1 to integrate
Judy: Today, I would like to focus on the third page where you find first a quick notice that this is a moving target right now. Some things are being developed in a TF that is trying to get accepted into WCAG2.1. Then a description of areas of work under development. Good candidates for SC though some are still under consdieration. Since it is another level of stability, we did not inlcude it in the page 2 material.
scribe: for now we are pointing into the lions den of the proposed SCs. There is for now, one expanded example and the intention is to do more of these.
... what would be most helpful for the workflow and sequence of this document?
Shadi: I think page 2 and 3 should be merged and rephrased. Rather than focus on SCs rather look at the interference with assistive technology regardless of the fate of the SCs and techniques. It will be hard to track that and keep current and the techniques are valid in any case.
<shawn> [ Shawn said the same thing in the planning call yesterday - put all the guidance together and clearly mark what is a WCAG requirement vs what is not (yet) ]
Shadi: I don't think it references the tutorials very much, for example the Menus. There should be more consistant framing that provides practical advice for developers.
<Judy> [jb - upcoming - saz - integrate the 3 different approaches, consistent framing, including generalizing the 'how to use other tutorials' guidance]
Judy: On the Accessible Media resource, please expect to see a survey. As people look at the materials, reactions vary so we will keep the GitHub comment line open. Anyone have reaction to that?
Shawn: Yes it would be good to do that.
Judy: Thanks very much everyone, please keep ideas and reactions coming, talk next week.
Shawn: Does the group want to continue the discussion of this resource?.
Sharron: I'd like time for a more considered review.
<lkee> agree with Sharron. I need more time too
<dboudreau> +1 ^^
Shawn: It is an early draft, need to focus on structure, etc and this level of comment has been useful and it is germaine to the development of a useful resource - thanks for your input.
Shawn: The work for this week will include more review of this, probably not have a weekly survey. Anything else?
... about the charter, please be aware that we sent out the Advanced Notice of work on the charter. We have asked for comments in the next week. Our intention is to address any comments before it goes for final approval by the AC - one representative from each compnay. So if you AC rep has any comments on the EO charter, please get those to us next week.
... as we expected, there has been pushback on us being a Working Group. Has to do with overall issues not our work specifically. EOWG is the current focus of some general differences of understanding about WG purpose. Your AC rep, if they are so inclined, can send a note of support to the AC mailing list expressing their feeling that the EO is appropriate to be a working group, that your org supports the re-chartering.
Sharron: This is more than admin politics - it's important to our being able to continue our work seriously. If you're comfortable encouraging your AC Rep to speak out in a positive way about EO work and continue as a Working Group, it would be quite helpful for others to see public support.
<dboudreau> I'm assuming Foliot is on board?
Shawn: Yes, we spoke a few times, he may not be comfortable speaking aloud but I think will not oppose. OK thanks all, anything else for now?
<dboudreau> great ty
<dboudreau> ok :)
Robert: Will we publish the Policies work today?
Shawn: About publishing the policies, we typically do that on Tuesdays for greater attention. We can stay on after the meeting to discuss. Thanks all, have a good weekend.