Brent: Got some limited feedback from COGA. Has been difficult due to COGA commitments to WCAG 2.1. They recommend to publish with these few comments and they will do more thorough review later. Planing team has determined to do that with a note on the Diversity of Users page.
Shadi: Have been a number of small changes, updates to stories and would like folks to take one more final look before we publish to make sure all the changes are OK - In the survey you will find the original version and a diff version so you can hone in on the exact changes that were made. If everything is OK, we can publish.
Brent: Thanks Shadi, and we will process COGA comments as they come in
Sharron: Thanks Shadi this is a tremendous resource
Denis: For the record, I use this at almost every training I give and it is really useful.
<yatil> +1 for tremendous resource!
Shadi: Originally created by Gregg and Kate Vanderheiden and just I reworked it.
Brent: We have a few links in the agenda and I will turn it over to Robert and MaryJo and see what considerations we should make.
Robert: Eric, MaryJo, and I met
to strategize on the submission form. Used the Tools submission
form, cloned it, and repurposed for this function. It looks just
the same as the other, you'll see that most all of the fields
and data are submitted in a straightforward way. We need
feedback about how its worded as well as if anything is missing
or if the design is too jarring.
... should it look more like the Policies Prototype or is it OK
to use this styling?
Brent: I have a logistics question. It seems a straightforward input form. Rather than get group input now, we would prefer to get feedback once it is wired up and we can ask the group for input of the entire resource. What is your preference?
Robert: No strong feelings on that but would like to know if people feel we should change the styling to align with the prototype?
Shawn: I have a mild preference for them to look the same, but not a strong preference and not worth a lot of time.
Eric: I feel the same and remember that we will restyle with the redesign.
Brent: OK seems like we can move
on then unless anyone has comments? Moving along nicely thanks
to Robert and MJ - good progress.
... over the next week the team will dive into the GitHub issue
and once we get those closed we can do a thorough review of the
resource.
Robert: I was able to close 6
issues. A few that remain open seem to be more updates to
filters and future improvements than immediate needs. I will
assign milestones to those.
... there are issues around making filters work and when that
work is done we can close some of those related issues.
... a few new comments that may be integrated but several can
be closed and the number of issues that remain open have to do
mostly with future improvements and filters.
... all the issues are now labeled and will attach specific
milestones so we can see how they are related.
<yatil> [ Eric has updated the submission form with the standard WAI layout as requested: https://w3c.github.io/wai-policies-prototype/submission.html]
Brent: Thanks any additional questions or comments? Thanks for all the work on that Robert, MaryJo and Eric.
Shawn: Thanks for survey results, I implemented Denis's comment and if there is anything else, please do let us know. Have started a new Outreach page since that will a big part of our focus. Please feel free to add to that your ideas and goals in that area.
<shawn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/EOWG_Outreach
Brent: If we can take a look at that outreach page and talk about what we would like from you. Sometimes we may be doing things similar to what we have done in the past and so we may want to consider that and if there are other things we can do that will extend out reach. So please feel free to think about new outreach strategies and what those might be, how to improve our typical outreach. Any questions about what we are looking for on this page?
Denis: I have been thinking about a podcast, is that a possibility in EO? Conversations that we can record and share to help people understand the resources more.
Shawn: Yes that is something we have considered, no political reasons why not. Have envisioned podcast or even short videos to introduce resources. Do them once a month or something.
Robert: I love that idea of a podcast. What is our social media strategy?
Robert: May be we need to develop a more formal social media schedule or strategy to make the most of those platforms.
<yatil> [Twitter: https://twitter.com/w3c_wai]
<shawn> https://twitter.com/w3c_wai
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say tweets easy to post - EOWG participants can draft and I will post
Eric: Can put ideas for tweets on the wiki page and staff can thne pick up the ones that are appropriate.
<yatil> [ Created Tweets wiki page: https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Tweets]
<rjolly> +1 to Sharron, Eric, and Shawn’s words on Twitter use/scheduling
Brent: Any other comments, other outreach ideas, questions on the planning pages? Feel free to use as a brainstroming platform.
Brent: Decisions are needed and we have not gotten much input about attendence. Several have not answered and several others have said they could not come on Saturday. The question we need to ask is who can and cannot attend on Saturday - should we have just a one day meeting?
Denis: I am uncertain about the days I can remain. I only recently got permission to attend and so not sure I could stay all day on Saturday.
Brent: OK will tentatively plan
for both days even if Saturday is a half day.
... now need to look at TPAC face to face and need to have
everyone fill this out so we know what the preference is for
scheduling the F2F within that week. We need to reserve the
rooms, so please respond.
... the conference hotel will fillup so make a reservation now
can be cancelled up to 48 hours ahead.
... any questions about that?
Brent: There is an issue for the
pages resolving, they will load after a bit of spinning. Judy
will show a very rough draft of what has been done so far. It
is a first draft. First, remember that it is a draft, each page
is running longer, will be tersified and trimmed. Second, don't
worry about the styling, it will change. Third, there will be
recognition of funding source and other acknowledgments.And, finally this is a temporary location and will
be moved into GitHub.
...Judy will take us
through, if you have an intial reaction feel free to say it now
but understand it will be in the survey and you will have some
time to comment later on.
Judy: Great introduction, thank you Brent. Hesitiated to bring it in at this stage but thought it might be helpful to see beyond the outlines and see some content as it takes shape. Think of it in the presentation mode that the tutorials use, that may help. It follows the outline that you have reviewed.
<yatil> https://www.w3.org/2017/04/xsmedia-tute/Overview.html
Judy: If there is too much content on Concepts page, please suggest how to address, how to break it up, or if it is OK.
Shadi: Have gotten a lot of requests for this and am very glad we are doing it. That said, there is much to be trimmed. The Concepts must be very high level. Triple nested list is just too much. Policy considerations do not belong in here at all, in my opinion.
Sharron: +1 to removing policy comments
<yatil> +1 what shadi said, also policies are referencing US-centric policies.
Judy: In terms of the definitions, are you recommending that those be removed from the opening page or removed from the piece altogether?
Shadi: Have the high level bullets but not the subsections which content would be within the specific pages.
Brent: I agree with Shadi. The bulleted list is too much, content can be moved within the pages.
<Judy> [jb: from saz, less detail on front page; no triple-nesting; maybe move detail abt type of accessible info to those specific pages; don't need the policy stuff here.
<Judy> [jb: from saz, less detail on front page; no triple-nesting; maybe move detail abt type of accessible info to those specific pages; don't need the policy stuff here.]
Brent: policy also does not belong in the tutorial, if this is meant to be a developer's guide it should be specific to the needs of a developer not policy makers. The policies relating to other technical topics in the tutorials were not mentioned, should not be included.
Norah: I like the content very much, I like being able to compare the AD and captions. I think the writing is clear and direct. Like it very much.
Judy: Great to hear,thanks
<yatil> https://www.w3.org/2017/04/xsmedia-tute/page1a.html
Judy: looking at the next page,
production options. The scenario is a developer who gets the
message "we need to caption videos" and has no clue about how
to or what resources are available. There are some examples
right away to go look at something and then some work flow
considerations and tips along the way with examples.
... the intent is to hold someone's hand and take them along a
path to get started.
Eric: I have the feeling that this is more a page for content creators rather than developers. No information about how to implement from a developer's perspective.
<Judy> [jb: from brent, +1 don't need policy; +1 less detail up front]
Eric: not sure if tools are able to be recommended.
Judy: We have to be careful about that. If you name just one vendor, that is a problem. If we name several it is less of a problem. Seems OK if we name a number of them but must be careful to do it well.
Judy: while this is more for developers it is OK and useful to provide some info for content creators.
Shawn: I am extremely concerned about that list of tools, may need to do an open list and allow public submission, similar to auto testing tools....e.g., someone says I want my tool listed too.
Judy: How would you feel about having snapshots following the production workflow but eliminating that list up front?
Shawn: You could have an example of what the tool provides while masking out what tool it is.
Shawn: also another point is that the tutorials are aimed at developers but this must be for both. We need to define the audience and my gut is that it is multiple audiences... maybe mark who does what.
Brent: Is there another page - a 1B - or what completes this?
Judy: No not that I recall.
<Judy> [jb: from slh, probably take out tools list; maybe mask tool details in later examples; think about multiple audiences]
<shawn> +1 to "decision tree" for when you need audio description, caption, etc.
<Judy> jb: there will be a decision tree
Brent: OK another question. Internally at my company, to define closed, open captions, audio descriptins etc we understood we had to define all of this to people who were conflating them. Used the GUidelines to start with what kind of media do you have and then we made a tool kind of like a decision tree - what do you need to do based on what kind of media you ahve and what the requirements are. What are these accessibility tools and when do you need to use them?
Judy: That is exactly what we are planning to show, something very like a decision tree. We had been brainstorming about an example to show people up front and will likely use the Perspectives vidoes.
<Brent> For the example lead them to the Perspectives. It is a perfect working example.
<Brent> I use that as an example all the time.
Eric: Do we want to separate
audio from video into two separate resources? Could help to
make the tutorial more focused and shorter
... yes I am suggesting to divide into two tutorials. i also think the incluion of samples is excellent!
Judy: Would it be OK to say we are focused on the audio aspects of video ?
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to reply to Eric's point and "multimedia" and to say decision tree separate -- but also maybe clear on first page
Shawn: The EasyChecks experience led us to use the term multimedia since it is a common term.
Judy: But I have gotten feedback that multimedia is an outdated term.
<Judy> [jb: from ee, clarify that you're talking abt audio *in context of* video; +1 to lots of examples]
Norah: Yes multimedia is outdated
and we use the term accessible media and I like that they are
together since you are usually speaking about one piece of media
- a video - and the different things that must be done to make
it accessible to various audiences.
... a transcript would be useful for audio only and would fit
here but mostly we are referencing a video with audio
content.
<Zakim> Judy, you wanted to note that esp since html5, term "video" being used even more
<shawn> +1 for "media" is vague. and maybe "Video and Audio" clearest
<Judy> [jb: from slh, clarify "media", "video" etc (in lieu of using "multimedia")]
<yatil> [ Eric: Media could also be infographics, images or other similar formats]
<yatil> https://www.w3.org/2017/04/xsmedia-tute/page2.html
<shawn> [ Shawn has wanted to note that in addition to the "decision tree" -- that it would be nice to be clear on the first page.]
Judy: Load up the next page, captioning formats are presented, etc. The effort here was to orient developers a bit so that the format choice does not get them stuck. Would like feedback on if this approach is useful to help provide that orientation?
<Zakim> yatil, you wanted to say if WebVTT is supported everywhere, use that in the tutorial and only point to TTML as an alternative
Eric: The support table at the top shows that WebVTT is most widely supported and so as we make examples, use that and so then would not need to make a distinction.
<yatil> https://www.w3.org/2017/04/xsmedia-tute/page2.html
Judy: I would not feel comfortable pointing to TTML only incidently so will think about another approach.
<Judy> [jb: from Eric, concern about listing TTML; jb -- discuss w/ Geoff options for clarifying some benefits, possibly rethinking the approach for this page.]
Judy: next page
<yatil> https://www.w3.org/2017/04/xsmedia-tute/page3.html
Judy: Automatically generated captioning options are discussed here, think about the context of the attitude about this among people who rely on it. There is more background than is presented and are there thoughts about tone and approach considering the context? What do we want the recommendation to be?
<yatil> [ /me leans to say that is more content creation… ]
Eric: if it does not work on the majority of platforms a lot of developers will discard TTML and work in the WebVTT restrictions.
Brent: We do internally generated
captions and then use a company to do the work for us
... so I like what is here since it explains that.
Judy: OK thanks, next page
<Judy> [jb: from BB, maybe say more clearly that some orgnizations start with auto-gen then do clean-up.
<Judy> [jb: from BB, maybe say more clearly that some orgnizations start with auto-gen then do clean-up.]
<Norah> +1 on using auto captions as part of the process, but not reliable alone without human intervention
<shawn> https://www.w3.org/2017/04/xsmedia-tute/page5.html
<rjolly> Page 3 is really well done. +1 on Brent with Norah
<yatil> [Page 4 “Subtitles” not present yet]
<shawn> fyi http://www.uiaccess.com/transcripts/transcripts_on_the_web.html#bests
Judy: On the transcripts basics,
is this approach OK?
... is it enough content? a bit different from the others.
<yatil> +q
<yatil> +1 shawn
<Judy> [jb: from slh, say more about how to present transcripts well]
Shawn: One of the things I am wondering about is why list a method that is not recommended. An ideal transcript has some additonal headings and formatting, so should be presented in HTML or word processing format
Shawn: also seems that there is a lot more to say about what makes a good transcript.
<Brent> +1 to saying more about what makes a good transcript. This is a tutorial so let's tutor people more on what a good transcript entails.
Eric: I think the creating and presenting should be on the top, best practice should lead, and should expand on the clarity of what makes a good transcript
<Judy> [jb: from ee, move presenting transcripts to the top; expand bulleted list and move it down]
Norah: I see the interactive transcript listed there but there may also need a note about video players that can handle that.
<yatil> [ Interactive transcript should point to a complete example of a video that works as we envision it, probably with a perspective video. ]
<Judy> [jb: from norah, maybe make interactive transcripts more discoverable]
<shawn> [jb - Goeff -- "Add headings and links where it will make the transcript more usable, e.g., added links in short podcast transcript and added headings in long presentation transcript. This also helps with SEO." https://www.w3.org/WAI/highlights/200606wcag2interview.html & https://www.w3.org/WAI/highlights/200706wcag2pres (from http://www.uiaccess.com/transcripts/transcripts_on_the_web.html#best
<shawn> s ]
<yatil> https://www.w3.org/2017/04/xsmedia-tute/page6.html
<Norah> 1+ definitely content is helpful if new to the topic
<yatil> [ Also a bit content-creator heavy, maybe. ]
<Brent> Big page. Looks good at first glance, need more time to review later
<Judy> https://www.w3.org/2017/04/xsmedia-tute/page7.html
Judy: On page 6, understand that
for most people this will be entirely new and so if you can
spend some time to consider if the message is clear and easy to
follow.
... Page 7 is trying to give developers an idea about how the
information will show up in different browsers and
platfroms.
... needs to think about how the toggles work in various
settings and other aspects of implementing these user interface
challenges and considerations that must be made. Does this
material help orient people effectively?
<Zakim> yatil, you wanted to say updating nightmare and to also comment on the AD button (as Shadi is not here) and to say maybe Styling an accessible Media/Video/Audio player
Eric: Are similar enough in various browsers that one example may work. perspectives will not be an example since a different video is used for AD. The term user agents is hard to parse may suggest design consideration instead.
<Judy> [jb: from ee, take into account issues of updating; consider one (masked) example, not all; consider how to better explain time scale modification with audio-described version]
<yatil> [ Eric: Design consideration for Players]
Judy: One of the things people like about the current tutorials is that the tone is very approachable. I am not hearing that today and would appreciate your thinking about the tone of this content as well.
<Judy> [jb: from ee, consider "design consideration" for part of title instead "user agent" page]
Brent: Judy, please send the survey questions as soon as you can get to them and we will post the survey.
Shawn: I wonder if we want to - rather than sending a survey - get people's comments directly into GitHub and just get his action on comments as they come in.
Sharron: +1
Shawn: Can Geoff send update to an EO list and we can do the updates.
Judy: Eric if you can put into GitHUb can you also put it in markdown.
Shawn: is it important to put it in markdown right away? Why not just leave it in HTML?
Brent: There is a short weekly survey, once the details of how to look at the new tutorials are worked out will send that as well. Thanks all for staying longer, we will get the word out. adjourned