See also: IRC log
<addison_> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/TPAC2016_Agenda
<r12a> http://w3c.github.io/typography/#justification
<r12a> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2016Aug/att-0004/text-justify-i18n.html
<r12a> \https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2016Sep/0011.html
fantasai: solve the problem of
referring to info about different writing systems justification
methods
... need a place for the reference to land
richard: not just a github doc?
fantasai: want a real, "not get lost link"
richard: typogprahy link could be put on w3 site from github
fantasai: would help
... won't go away
... know it'll be maintained 50 years into future, should be
the standard
richard: but also changed it, very high level
fantasai: no context in the doc,
implementer won't know anything about i18n
... should have some idea what you're dealing with
richard: what's your goal with section 3? (guidance for authors and implementers)
fantasai: these were things i
thought were important, that people should know
... not guidance I can put in spec
richard: now looking at my email
thought 1: if we're going to maintain it, it needs to be converted to respec, since that's what we know (and what our style guides are based on)
scribe: bikeshed or respec?
respec okay
thought 2: the idea of https://w3c.github.io/typography/ was that there would be ONE PLACE to go to for information, rather than many different places ...
thought 3: another reason for not limiting this to justification is that justification is significantly affected by other factors, which should also be mentioned, including...
(list omitted)
richard: work hard to get info in only one place
1. can move to w3c TR
2. can make note format
3. can add text like in fantasai's doc
4. can have more links
richard: don't understand
difference between emph and justification, for example
tibetan
... what worries me is adding little sections of this
kind
... wnat more links
... would you help us with more mini-descriptions?
fantasai: happy to do co-editorship of doc
richard: create a new document
that is respec based, taking fantasai's doc, and....
... acting as co-editor
<scribe> ACTION: fantasai to convert her text justification to respec [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-i18n-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-556 - Convert her text justification to respec [on Elika Etemad - due 2016-09-30].
<scribe> ACTION: richard to send fantasai information and pointers to i18n use of respec [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-i18n-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-557 - Send fantasai information and pointers to i18n use of respec [on Richard Ishida - due 2016-09-30].
richard and fantasai to work on creating wg note etc.
richard: we have a number of TF
working on layout requirements
... they are under I18N IG
... they have a formal structure
... want to know key contribs to a specific doc
... having in the db enables that
... see if we have good representation, recognizing folks,
etc.
... less concerned about that now
... do find maintaining this is unusual arrangment is
hard
... have to do Invited Expert
... quite a few steps and if a member is complicated
... not sure thhat we get a lot of visibility for these
groups
... a community group would be listed on that page, might be
spotted and such
... simplify admin, no need for Invited Expert
... but....
... some oddities
... I want to partipcate, needed to set up
... not normal kind of involvement
... we as a WG publish the docs for them
... gives oversight
... integrate work into wider portfolio
... need to continue with existing mailing lists and w3c domain github repos
<wseltzer> [Proposal: IG + CGs with staff participation + publication through WG]
richard: so a CG that allows
staff participation and that expects to pub through WG
... could carry on in the same way
... seek thoughts?
fantasai: some discussion of
similar thing in css
... wicg
... proposal from them to get published. not unique to i18n
wendy: here in my new role
<r12a> https://www.w3.org/International/layout
wendy: bring things up through
"pipes"
... may differ in concerns about IPR between css and i18n
... as a general matter
... more participation and fewer barriers is great
... have cg to get copyright and such on contrib basis
... narrower than WGs
... don't currently do much for advertising, IG might work
better, home page and such
... "if you don't see one" here's mechanism
... some vetting mechanism for which would become "team
supported" and "official"/quasi-official
... e.g. maybe we wouldn't do say, Klingon, except on 1
April
... can approve resources
... have mailing lists, wikis
richard: have existing mailing
lists and github repos
... replicate for new groups, not a problem?
wendy: can do
fantasai: affiliate CG under a WG
wendy: sponsor CGs
... they report back
fantasai: could spend resources on the CG by team because af.
richard: getting into parts of
world "far away" that W3C doesn't reach well normally, no participation barriers
... allows them to experience and share experiences with w3c
[note that these task forces only produce docs that become i18n WG Notes]
fantasai: co-created documents
can be produced
... doc belongs to both groups
wendy: since they have different contrib regimes, what form IPR takes for TR copy
fantasai: WG commit for WG, CG for CG
wendy: all under TR is WG or
IG
... CG reports separate
[fantasai introduces idea of incubator groups contributing to WGs such as CSS]
fantasai: goal is to pull from CG into REC track docs
wendy: at transition point, have to do some kind of IP review
<scribe> ACTION: wseltzer to figure out how CG to WG transition IPR should work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-i18n-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Error finding 'wseltzer'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/International/track/users>.
richard: I18N only publishes notes
wendy: guidelines for when something will be published
richard: we have understandings,
my participation drives much of that
... need to go to TFs and see if they want to work this way
<r12a> https://www.w3.org/International/layout
wendy: don't need special tooling, create CG, kill mailing list, point to the new one
<r12a> https://www.w3.org/International/review-request
<wseltzer> wendy: from Strategy, thinking about how to include i18n in early incubation stage
<r12a> https://www.w3.org/International/techniques/developing-specs?collapse
<scribe> ACTION: richard to do due diligence on converting layout TFs to CGs [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-i18n-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-558 - Do due diligence on converting layout tfs to cgs [on Richard Ishida - due 2016-09-30].
richard: need for formally document my participation in CGs
wendy: will need to figure out
(exeuent Fantasai, Wendy)
felix: schema.org is an
initiative from search engine providers
... to put structured info on web
... engines could harvest info from the web
... like say a person, application related scenario
... product of certain type, price, review rating
... this kind of info, schema.org provides URIs that you can
put into forms
... put into web content that is understood by search
engines
... i18n CGs have worked on topic for cross-lingual
search
... imagine you're a german company and want chinese
customers
... one way to achieve is to have structured schema.org, this
product described in german is same as product written in
chinese
<fsasaki> http://fsasaki.github.io/stuff/tekom2016/
felix: above link is a demo
... contains other things,, but has cross-lingual
mappings
... shows how to generate
... goal of meeting was make schema.org aware of this use
case
... how how it could look lik
... output in demo page, click on "conversino" button
... more useful to have schema.org representation?
... to take further, need companies to adopt
... talked to some yesterday, doing same idea
... need bigger orgs involved
... one company producing not just for search engines but for
other exchange
... presenting at a conference in november
... many participants from semantic web background (oooh,
scary)
... much easier to be handled by developers than,, say, rdf
data models
richard: give a clearer
idea
... didn't quite get main point
felix: embeds info in the
page
... so has "same as"
<r12a> http://w3c.github.io/charmod-norm/
<scribe> ACTION: richard to create a repo and base document for "String Searching in Natural Language Content" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-i18n-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-559 - Create a repo and base document for "string searching in natural language content" [on Richard Ishida - due 2016-09-30].
RESOLUTION: create a new document for string searching and rename charmod-norm as "Charmod: String Matching"
<r12a> https://github.com/w3c/charmod-norm/issues/101
To resume at 13:00
nigel: chair of TTWG
<nigel> http://w3c.github.io/ttml2/spec/ttml2.html
nigel: ttml == timed text markup
language
... v1 in 2010
... requested review of v2
as a horizontal review
TTML is an infoset for representing text that changes over time
http://w3c.github.io/ttml2/spec/ttml2.html
nigel: editors draft
... before that begins, a new update with updates in
... quite sizable
... system model
... mainly serialized as xml, doens't have to be
... ttml defines doc types
... primary one with content doc
... defines display of text over time
... profile doc, different use cases require different use
cases
... ttml2 extends profiles
... also can affect document conformance
... a syntax for describing that
... current draft also has 'internediate document'
... create different yptes of docs, validate against
profile
... transcoders
... rendering processors
... can be pixels or by converting into intermediate doc
... rep single fixed state at a moment in time
... like html+css that can be rendered
... go to toc
... a lot of formal stuff
richard: are all times relative
nigel: can express times in say
media time or sympti or clock times
... clock time in UTC, GPS, or locale
local (not locale)
compatible with ttml1
nigel: ttml creates
"condition"
... include or omit based on evaluation of something
... use case is, generalization of imsc
... forced subtitles
... these are translation intermingled with
hard-of-hearing
... if english translation
... english translation are "forced" (rquired) to be
displayed
... and hard-of-hearing might also (not-forced) to be
displayed
... so media queries, change presentation based on like size of
display
string comparison
fonts and font formats
unicode-range
section 9 is new
a lot of styling is from ttml1 but a lot of new ones
scribe: supposed to support many
scripts
... supports layout of japanese
meant to align with css
moving from xsl-fo to css
tt: bpd (richard: why not writing-mode)
fontShear
textCombine -> tate-chu-yoko
textEmphasis
bopomofo/zhuyin ruby may be in spec by the time we review
richard: font or
implementation
... position tones not just annotation
fantasai: positioning of tones is just in bopomofo
(discussion of tone positioning)
unicodeBidi
<r12a> http://r12a.github.io/scripts/bopomofo/ontheweb
style resolution unchanged
layout mainly unchanged
timing unchanged
animation modified, was discrete (at a "set" moment in time)
now have 'animate' for contiuous modification over time
richer
metadata not changed much
now support generic structure for named types
audio based descriptions
examples and tests?
there is a ttml test v1
richard: where can I run it?
glenn maintains open source toolkit
called ttt (timed text toolkit)
skynav on github
has a presentation engine in it
makes svgs or pngs
nigel: key headlines
... are there semantics that need changing
... are there incompatibilities with css that cannot be
resolved
fantasai: will try to look at it,
please send a link
... can add things back if here
nigel: accessibility, put text on
a background
... if you have adjacent lines of different length
... difficult at authoring time to put in correct values to
ensure no gap between background areas
... some things here to try to address
... glenn talking to bert about it?
<scribe> ACTION: nigel to find link to doc or email thread about css line height/gap problem [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-i18n-minutes.html#action06]
<trackbot> Error finding 'nigel'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/International/track/users>.
<nigel> background height issue: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/150
(exuent: TTML folks)
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/165
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/189
<fantasai> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-text-3/#boundary-shaping
<fantasai> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-text-3/issues-lc-2013#issue-87
<fantasai> https://hg.csswg.org/drafts/rev/85b9cfce7d1c
<fantasai> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Oct/0400.html
<fantasai> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2016JulSep/0121.html
<fantasai> Response to 316 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Jul/0500.html
<fantasai> CSSWG resolution https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Aug/0321.html
<fantasai> issue tracked by CSSWG in https://drafts.csswg.org/css-text-3/issues-lc-2013#issue-51
fantasai: questions from css, css3-text
<fantasai> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-text-3/issues-lc-2013#issue-97
Issue 97. # Summary: Add 'none' value to line-break for traditional Chinese Comment: ??? Trad Chinese doesn't care about kinsoku Open: =WG= Discuss with i18n.
sounds like wanted documentation in clreq too
(exuent felix)
<fantasai> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-text-3/issues-lc-2013#issue-110
<fantasai> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-text-3/issues-lc-2013#issue-111
Issue 110. # Summary: capitalizing enclosed alphanumerics From: Jonathan Kew Comment: https://www.w3.org/mid/54FF0DDC.6000408@w3.org