07:48:55 RRSAgent has joined #i18n 07:48:55 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-i18n-irc 07:48:59 Zakim has joined #i18n 07:49:18 Meeting: TPAC 2016 Internationalization WG 07:49:23 Chair: Addison Phillips 07:49:27 Scribe: addison 07:49:34 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-i18n-minutes.html addison 07:49:49 Agenda: https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/TPAC2016_Agenda 07:54:03 fsasaki has joined #i18n 07:55:42 addison_ has joined #i18n 07:55:45 r12a has joined #i18n 07:55:58 Agenda: https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/TPAC2016_Agenda 07:56:05 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-i18n-minutes.html addison_ 07:58:18 tantek has joined #i18n 07:59:33 tantek has joined #i18n 08:03:12 barryleiba has joined #i18n 08:18:11 present+ Addison 08:18:15 present+ Richard 08:18:43 present+ Lisa Simon 08:18:49 Present+ Fantasai 08:20:16 Present+ Yoshiro 08:20:38 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-i18n-minutes.html addison 08:23:09 Topic: Justification document 08:23:10 Topic: Justification document 08:23:34 http://w3c.github.io/typography/#justification 08:23:47 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2016Aug/att-0004/text-justify-i18n.html 08:25:31 \https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2016Sep/0011.html 08:26:45 fantasai: solve the problem of referring to info about different writing systems justification methods 08:26:51 ... need a place for the reference to land 08:26:59 richard: not just a github doc? 08:27:10 fantasai: want a real, "not get lost link" 08:27:24 richard: typogprahy link could be put on w3 site from github 08:27:30 fantasai: would help 08:27:34 ... won't go away 08:27:58 ... know it'll be maintained 50 years into future, should be the standard 08:28:29 richard: but also changed it, very high level 08:28:44 fantasai: no context in the doc, implementer won't know anything about i18n 08:28:59 ... should have some idean what you're dealing with 08:29:05 s/idean/idea/ 08:29:40 richard: what's your goal with section 3? (guidance for authors and implementers) 08:30:01 fantasai: these were things i thought were important, that people should know 08:30:07 ... not guidance I can put in spec 08:33:17 richard: now looking at my email 08:33:31 thought 1: if we're going to maintain it, it needs to be converted to respec, since that's what we know (and what our style guides are based on) 08:33:41 ... bikeshed or respec? 08:33:45 respec okay 08:34:02 thought 2: the idea of https://w3c.github.io/typography/ was that there would be ONE PLACE to go to for information, rather than many different places ... 08:34:43 thought 3: another reason for not limiting this to justification is that justification is significantly affected by other factors, which should also be mentioned, including... 08:34:50 (list omitted) 08:36:42 richard: work hard to get info in only one place 08:40:42 myles has joined #i18n 08:46:58 1. can move to w3c TR 08:47:06 2. can make note format 08:47:15 3. can add text like in fantasai's doc 08:47:23 4. can have more links 08:48:07 dae has joined #i18n 08:48:58 richard: don't understand difference between emph and justification, for example tibetan 08:51:58 ... what worries me is adding little sections of this kind 08:52:07 ... wnat more links 08:53:06 ... would you help us with more mini-descriptions? 08:53:15 fantasai: happy to do co-editorship of doc 09:05:31 richard: create a new document that is respec based, taking fantasai's doc, and.... 09:06:06 ... acting as co-editor 09:06:32 action: fantasai to convert her text justification to respec 09:06:32 Created ACTION-556 - Convert her text justification to respec [on Elika Etemad - due 2016-09-30]. 09:06:48 action: richard to send fantasai information and pointers to i18n use of respec 09:06:49 Created ACTION-557 - Send fantasai information and pointers to i18n use of respec [on Richard Ishida - due 2016-09-30]. 09:07:59 richard and fantasai to work on creating wg note etc. 09:08:05 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-i18n-minutes.html addison 09:09:39 present+ Wendy 09:10:08 Topic: Community Groups and I18N 09:10:16 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-i18n-minutes.html addison 09:10:31 richard: we have a number of TF working on layout requirements 09:10:36 ... they are under I18N IG 09:10:41 ... they have a formal structure 09:10:49 ... want to know key contribs to a specific doc 09:10:54 ... having in the db enables that 09:11:04 ... see if we have good representation, recognizing folks, etc. 09:11:10 ... less concerned about that now 09:11:30 ... do find maintaining this is unusual arrangment is hard 09:11:36 ... have to do Invited Expert 09:11:47 ... quite a few steps and if a member is complicated 09:12:05 richard: not sure thhat we get a lot of visibility for these groups 09:12:20 ... a community group would be listed on that page, might be spotted and such 09:12:23 wseltzer has joined #i18n 09:12:31 ... simplify admin, no need for Invited Expert 09:12:34 ... but.... 09:12:41 richard: some oddities 09:12:58 ... I want to partipcate, needed to set up 09:13:03 ... not normal kind of involvement 09:13:14 ... we as a WG publish the docs for them 09:13:18 ... gives oversight 09:13:28 ... integrate work into wider portfolio 09:13:43 [Proposal: IG + CGs with staff participation + publication through WG] 09:13:43 ... so a CG that allows staff participation and that expects to pub through WG 09:13:59 ... could carry on in the same way 09:14:09 ... seek thoughts? 09:14:14 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-i18n-minutes.html addison 09:14:28 q+ 09:14:36 fantasai: some discussion of similar thing in css 09:14:52 ... wicg 09:15:11 ... proposal from them to get published. not unique 09:15:14 ack wsel 09:15:24 wendy: here in my new role 09:15:26 s/unique/unique to i18n/ 09:15:29 https://www.w3.org/International/layout 09:15:37 ... bring things up through "pipes" 09:15:49 ... may differ in concerns about IPR between css and i18n 09:16:04 ... as a general matter 09:16:13 ... more participation and fewer barriers is great 09:16:27 jasnell has joined #i18n 09:16:27 ... have cg to get copyright and such on contrib basis 09:16:33 ... narrower than WGs 09:16:59 ... don't currently do much for advertising, IG might work better, home page and such 09:17:13 ... "if you don't see one" here's mechanism 09:17:32 ... some vetting mechanism for which would become "team supported" and "official"/quasi-official 09:18:05 ... e.g. maybe we wouldn't do say, Klingon, except on 1 April 09:18:22 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-i18n-minutes.html addison 09:18:32 wendy: can approve resources 09:18:44 ... have mailing lists, wikis 09:18:57 richard: have existing mailing lists and github repos 09:19:06 ... replicate for new groups, not a problem? 09:19:11 wendy: can do 09:19:23 fantasai: affiliate CG under a WG 09:19:52 wendy: sponsor CGs 09:20:03 ... they report back 09:20:45 fantasai: could spend resources on the CG by team because af. 09:21:06 richard: getting into parts of world "far away", no participation barriers 09:21:18 ... but experiencing w3c 09:21:48 fantasai: co-created documents can be produced 09:22:00 ... doc belongs to both groups 09:22:48 wendy: since they have different contrib regimes, what form IPR takes for TR copy 09:23:01 fantasai: WG commit for WG, CG for CG 09:23:20 wendy: all under TR is WG or IG 09:23:32 ... CG reports separate 09:23:50 fantasai: goal is to pull from CG into REC track docs 09:24:06 wendy: at transition point, have to do some kind of IP review 09:24:31 action: wseltzer to figure out how CG to WG transition IPR should work 09:24:31 Error finding 'wseltzer'. You can review and register nicknames at . 09:25:07 Florian has joined #i18n 09:25:26 richard: I18N only publishes notes 09:29:32 wendy: guidelines for when something will be published 09:29:46 richard: we have understandings, my participation drives much of that 09:30:21 ... need to go to TFs and see if they want to work this way 09:30:34 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-i18n-minutes.html addison 09:30:38 https://www.w3.org/International/layout 09:32:36 wendy: don't need special tooling, create CG, kill mailing list, point to the new one 09:36:10 https://www.w3.org/International/review-request 09:36:31 wendy: from Strategy, thinking about how to include i18n in early incubation stage 09:36:47 https://www.w3.org/International/techniques/developing-specs?collapse 09:37:14 action: richard to do due diligence on converting layout TFs to CGs 09:37:14 Created ACTION-558 - Do due diligence on converting layout tfs to cgs [on Richard Ishida - due 2016-09-30]. 09:37:32 richard: need for formally document my participation in CGs 09:37:38 wendy: will need to figure out 09:37:42 Florian has joined #i18n 09:37:48 richard: but for now just do it 09:37:53 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-i18n-minutes.html addison 09:48:35 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-i18n-minutes.html addison 10:08:28 (exeuent Fantasai, Wendy) 10:08:34 present+ Francesco 10:08:59 present+ Felix 10:09:22 present+ Florian 10:10:02 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-i18n-minutes.html addison 10:10:25 Topic: Schema.org meeting 10:10:49 fsasaki has joined #i18n 10:12:01 Present+ Dae 10:12:28 dae has joined #i18n 10:13:42 felix: schema.org is an initiative from search engine providers 10:13:48 ... to put structured info on web 10:13:57 ... engines could harvest info from the web 10:14:08 ... like say a person, application related scenario 10:14:15 ... product of certain type, price, review rating 10:14:27 ... this kind of info, schema.org provides URIs that you can put into forms 10:14:37 ... put into web content that is understood by search engines 10:14:58 felix: i18n CGs have worked on topic for cross-lingual search 10:15:12 ... imagine you're a german company and want chinese customers 10:15:35 ... one way to achieve is to have structured schema.org, this product described in german is same as product written in chinese 10:15:39 http://fsasaki.github.io/stuff/tekom2016/ 10:15:45 Florian has joined #i18n 10:15:47 felix: above link is a demo 10:15:54 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-i18n-minutes.html addison 10:16:08 felix: contains other things,, but has cross-lingual mappings 10:16:12 ... shows how to generate 10:16:22 ... goal of meeting was make schema.org aware of this use case 10:16:27 ... how how it could look lik 10:16:38 ... output in demo page, click on "conversino" button 10:17:18 felix: more useful to have schema.org representation? 10:18:32 felix: to take further, need companies to adopt 10:18:50 ... talked to some yesterday, doing same idea 10:19:14 ... need bigger orgs involved 10:19:47 ... one company producing not just for search engines but for other exchange 10:20:33 felix: presenting at a conference in november 10:21:44 felix: many participants from semantic web background (oooh, scary) 10:21:59 ... much easier to be handled by developers than,, say, rdf data models 10:22:10 richard: give a clearer idea 10:22:18 ... didn't quite get main point 10:23:22 felix: embeds info in the page 10:23:30 ... so has "same as" 10:25:52 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-i18n-minutes.html addison 10:25:56 present+ Nigel 10:26:12 present+ felix 10:27:43 myles has joined #i18n 10:28:38 Topic: Charmod 10:28:40 http://w3c.github.io/charmod-norm/ 10:36:20 nigel has joined #i18n 10:47:11 action: richard to create a repo and base document for "String Searching in Natural Language Content" 10:47:11 Created ACTION-559 - Create a repo and base document for "string searching in natural language content" [on Richard Ishida - due 2016-09-30]. 10:47:41 resolved: create a new document for string searching and rename charmod-norm as "Charmod: String Matching" 10:50:57 https://github.com/w3c/charmod-norm/issues/101 10:51:13 Francesco has joined #i18n 11:17:56 jasnell has joined #i18n 11:33:30 Yoshiro has joined #i18n 11:54:58 addison has joined #i18n 11:55:06 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-i18n-minutes.html addison 11:55:09 Topic: Lunch 11:55:19 To resume at 13:00 11:55:24 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-i18n-minutes.html addison 11:59:47 r12a has joined #i18n 12:00:06 nigel has joined #i18n 12:00:17 r12a has joined #i18n 12:00:29 r12a has joined #i18n 12:00:52 fsasaki has joined #i18n 12:04:34 dae has joined #i18n 12:04:48 Topic: Introduction to Timed Text 12:05:06 nigel: chair of TTWG 12:05:52 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-i18n-minutes.html addison 12:06:58 -> http://w3c.github.io/ttml2/spec/ttml2.html 12:07:06 Francesco has joined #i18n 12:08:00 nigel: ttml == timed text markup language 12:08:03 ... v1 in 2010 12:08:08 ... requested review of v2 12:08:14 as a horizontal review 12:08:33 TTML is an infoset for representing text that changes over time 12:08:54 http://w3c.github.io/ttml2/spec/ttml2.html 12:09:07 nigel: editors draft 12:09:19 ... before that begins, a new update with updates in 12:09:34 ... quite sizable 12:09:41 nigel: system model 12:09:50 ... mainly serialized as xml, doens't have to be 12:09:55 ... ttml defines doc types 12:10:01 ... primary one with content doc 12:10:10 ... defines display of text over time 12:10:23 ... profile doc, different use cases require different use cases 12:10:33 ... ttml2 extends profiles 12:10:45 ... also can affect document conformance 12:10:54 ... a syntax for describing that 12:11:06 ... current draft also has 'internediate document' 12:11:23 ... create different yptes of docs, validate against profile 12:11:29 ... transcoders 12:11:33 ... rendering processors 12:11:47 ... can be pixels or by converting into intermediate doc 12:12:01 ... rep single fixed state at a moment in time 12:12:08 ... like html+css that can be rendered 12:12:18 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-i18n-minutes.html addison 12:12:28 nigel: go to toc 12:12:36 ... a lot of formal stuff 12:13:57 richard: are all times relative 12:14:17 nigel: can express times in say media time or sympti or clock times 12:14:36 ... clock time in UTC, GPS, or locale 12:14:43 local (not locale) 12:17:29 compatible with ttml1 12:18:35 nigel: ttml creates "condition" 12:18:45 ... include or omit based on evaluation of something 12:19:00 ... use case is, generalization of imsc 12:19:07 ... forced subtitles 12:19:24 ... these are translation intermingled with hard-of-hearing 12:19:42 ... if english translation 12:19:55 ... english translation are "forced" (rquired) to be displayed 12:20:06 ... and hard-of-hearing might also (not-forced) to be displayed 12:20:26 ... so media queries, change presentation based on like size of display 12:22:26 string comparison 12:22:31 fonts and font formats 12:22:38 unicode-range 12:23:48 section 9 is new 12:24:11 a lot of styling is from ttml1 but a lot of new ones 12:24:21 ... supposed to support many scripts 12:24:26 ... supports layout of japanese 12:24:54 meant to align with css 12:25:06 moving from xsl-fo to css 12:28:49 tt:bpd (richard: why not writing-mode) 12:30:55 fontShear 12:32:42 textCombine -> tate-chu-yoko 12:33:36 textEmphasis 12:33:41 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-i18n-minutes.html addison 12:34:35 bopomofo/zhuyin ruby may be in spec by the time we review 12:35:33 richard: font or implementation 12:35:41 ... position tones not just annotation 12:36:22 fantasai: positioning of tones is just in bopomofo 12:37:04 (discussion of tone positioning) 12:38:37 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-i18n-minutes.html addison 12:40:02 http://rishida.io/scripts/bopomofo/ontheweb 12:40:29 s/http://rishida.io/scripts/bopomofo/ontheweb// 12:40:33 unicodeBidi 12:41:05 http://r12a.github.io/scripts/bopomofo/ontheweb 12:41:12 style resolution unchanged 12:41:16 layout mainly unchanged 12:41:24 timing unchanged 12:41:44 animation modified, was discrete (at a "set" moment in time) 12:41:57 now have 'animate' for contiuous modification over time 12:42:08 richer 12:42:16 metadata not changed much 12:42:28 now support generic structure for named types 12:44:51 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-i18n-minutes.html addison 12:46:08 Zakim has left #i18n 12:46:18 jasnell has joined #i18n 12:47:01 audio based descriptions 12:50:50 Zakim has joined #i18n 12:51:55 examples and tests? 12:52:03 there is a ttml test v1 12:55:04 richard: where can I run it? 12:55:13 glenn maintains open source toolkit 12:55:22 called ttt (timed text toolkit) 12:55:26 najib has joined #i18n 12:55:31 skynav on github 12:55:43 has a presentation engine in it 12:55:47 makes svgs or pngs 12:56:23 nigel: key headlines 12:56:29 ... are there semantics that need changing 12:56:42 ... are there incompatibilities with css that cannot be resolved 12:58:25 fantasai: will try to look at it, please send a link 12:59:33 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-i18n-minutes.html addison 13:00:37 fantasai: can add things back if here 13:00:58 nigel: accessibility, put text on a background 13:01:09 ... if you have adjacent lines of different length 13:01:28 ... difficult at authoring time to put in correct values to ensure no gap between background areas 13:01:36 ... some things here to try to address 13:01:43 ... glenn talking to bert about it? 13:03:59 action: nigel to find link to doc or email thread about css line height/gap problem 13:03:59 Error finding 'nigel'. You can review and register nicknames at . 13:04:48 background height issue: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/150 13:09:23 (exuent: TTML folks) 13:09:57 Topic: Issue Review 13:10:15 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/165 13:11:22 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/189 13:11:28 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-i18n-minutes.html addison 13:14:24 tantek has joined #i18n 13:17:37 barryleiba has joined #i18n 13:26:51 addison has joined #i18n 13:27:37 https://drafts.csswg.org/css-text-3/#boundary-shaping 13:28:06 fsasaki has joined #i18n 13:28:56 tantek has joined #i18n 13:29:26 https://drafts.csswg.org/css-text-3/issues-lc-2013#issue-87 13:30:29 https://hg.csswg.org/drafts/rev/85b9cfce7d1c 13:32:07 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Oct/0400.html 13:32:51 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2016JulSep/0121.html 13:34:15 Response to 316 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Jul/0500.html 13:34:35 CSSWG resolution https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Aug/0321.html 13:34:46 issue tracked by CSSWG in https://drafts.csswg.org/css-text-3/issues-lc-2013#issue-51 13:36:30 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-i18n-minutes.html addison 13:36:40 fantasai: questions from css, css3-text 13:36:45 https://drafts.csswg.org/css-text-3/issues-lc-2013#issue-97 13:37:21 Issue 97. # Summary: Add 'none' value to line-break for traditional Chinese Comment: ??? Trad Chinese doesn't care about kinsoku Open: =WG= Discuss with i18n. 13:40:04 sounds like wanted documentation in clreq too 13:40:11 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-i18n-minutes.html addison 13:40:19 (exuent felix) 13:41:06 https://drafts.csswg.org/css-text-3/issues-lc-2013#issue-110 13:41:19 https://drafts.csswg.org/css-text-3/issues-lc-2013#issue-111 13:41:46 Issue 110. # Summary: capitalizing enclosed alphanumerics From: Jonathan Kew Comment: https://www.w3.org/mid/54FF0DDC.6000408@w3.org 13:46:40 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/337 13:47:36 jasnell has joined #i18n 13:52:45 nigel has joined #i18n 13:53:50 takeshi_ has joined #i18n 13:58:41 https://github.com/w3c/svgwg/issues/280 14:04:53 jasnell has joined #i18n 14:14:47 addison has joined #i18n 14:14:54 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-i18n-minutes.html addison 14:34:34 fsasaki has joined #i18n 14:42:47 takeshi_ has joined #i18n 15:01:28 rrsagent, make minutes 15:01:28 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-i18n-minutes.html addison 15:02:03 zakim, bye 15:02:03 Zakim has left #i18n 15:02:43 rrsagent, make minutes 15:02:43 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-i18n-minutes.html addison 15:03:03 rrsagent, set logs world 15:03:32 rrsagent, bye 15:03:32 I see 6 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-i18n-actions.rdf : 15:03:32 ACTION: fantasai to convert her text justification to respec [1] 15:03:32 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-i18n-irc#T09-06-32 15:03:32 ACTION: richard to send fantasai information and pointers to i18n use of respec [2] 15:03:32 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-i18n-irc#T09-06-48 15:03:32 ACTION: wseltzer to figure out how CG to WG transition IPR should work [3] 15:03:32 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-i18n-irc#T09-24-31 15:03:32 ACTION: richard to do due diligence on converting layout TFs to CGs [4] 15:03:32 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-i18n-irc#T09-37-14 15:03:32 ACTION: richard to create a repo and base document for "String Searching in Natural Language Content" [5] 15:03:32 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-i18n-irc#T10-47-11 15:03:32 ACTION: nigel to find link to doc or email thread about css line height/gap problem [6] 15:03:32 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-i18n-irc#T13-03-59