See also: IRC log
<clown> agenda: this
<scribe> scribe: joanie
JS: You wanted to go through
issues this week.
... So I pre-loaded some that seem relevant.
<clown> issue-1029?
<trackbot> issue-1029 -- Add mappings for interactive separator (window splitter). -- open
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1029
JS: This is an issue to have
specific mappings for interactive separator.
... We have a number of actions for the platforms.
... All those mappings are pretty much done.
<clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-separator
JS: Here (above) are the
mappings.
... We spoke about this last week.
... (Describes what's in the mappings)
... I have not changed the AXAPI mappings at all.
RS: Is there a splitter role in IA2 or ATK/AT-SPI2.
JS: No.
RS: And you removed expanded/collapsed?
JS: Yes.
RS: Then I think you're done.
<clown> action-2089?
<trackbot> action-2089 -- Cynthia Shelly to Double check potential value events on windows when window-splitter changes position. -- due 2016-07-05 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2089
JS: Action 2089 remains.
... Cynthia is not here.
... And she did not make a note.
... Joanie pointed out that maybe we don't want to say "window"
with splitter.
JD: The above has demos and they don't look like windows to me.
RS: It's really a panel.
... In the really old days, you were splitting actual
windows.
JS: How should it be reworded?
RS: Panels, panes, ...?
JS: So "focusable pane splitter"?
RS: What's your definition of "window"?
JD: I would just cut out "window"
JS: So "focusable splitter"?
JD: Yes.
JS: I will do that.
... But we cannot close this until we hear back from
Cynthia.
<clown> issue-1026
<trackbot> issue-1026 -- AAPI mappings for aria-errormessage -- open
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1026
<clown> issue-1016
<trackbot> issue-1016 -- Means to get all the aria-kbdshortcuts elements -- open
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1016
<clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#ariaKeyshortcuts
JS: The mapping is at the above
URL.
... I have everything as people have asked me to.
... (Reads mappings)
RS: Accelerators and mnemonics are different.
<clown> action-1695
<trackbot> action-1695 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Propose UIA mapping for aria-kbdshortcuts -- due 2016-03-08 -- CLOSED
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1695
JS: This is what Cynthia told me
to do.
... (Reads from action)
RS: Then that's fine.
... I thought IA2 had a property.
<clown> action-1697
<trackbot> action-1697 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Propose MSAA+IA2 mapping of aria-kbdshortcuts -- due 2016-06-07 -- CLOSED
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1697
JS + JD: We got this from James Teh.
<clown> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/accessibility-ia2/2016-February/002008.html
JS: The above is the email from Jamie.
JS: James Teh also cites the
above documentation.
... But if you want to reopen this
RS: No. I just want to check. I
thought there was something.
... I'm looking.
... I'm not seeing it.
... So it's fine.
JS: The one that's standing out
is AXAPI, which doesn't map it.
... So it's not interoperable any more.
<clown> action-1698
<trackbot> action-1698 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Propose AXAPI mapping of aria-kbdshortcuts -- due 2016-07-05 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1698
JS: I actually had the mapping
from Chris.
... But shortly after he said that, James Craig said "please
don't map this."
... In part, they want to get rid of the "ARIA".
RS: It's their platform.
... It's my impression that Apple wants to move more to device
independence.
JS: Can we close the AXAPI action?
RS: I think so.
JS: I'm surprised they didn't say
to put it in AXHelp.
... Anyway, closing this action.
<clown> issue-682?
<trackbot> issue-682 -- Clarify what happens to required owned childrens' roles when native host language parent is overridden with a WAI-ARIA role. -- open
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/682
JS: We discussed this briefly
last week.
... This is the case where someone does the following:
<clown> <table role="dialog"> … </table>
JS: They use a table to make a
dialog.
... The question is what happens to the required own
elements?
JS + RS: They become presentational.
JS: I was asked to add some text regarding this.
<clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#mapping_conflicts
JS: The end of the second paragraph of the text at the above URL
<clown> "If the host language element has required owned elements, and its native role is overridden by a WAI-ARIA role, then treat the required owned elements as having role presentation or none. "
JS: I added the above
sentence.
... And I have links to the mappings for presentation and
none.
... I open the floor for comments.
RS: Well, the problem is... What
if you override a table with a grid?
... So no, that won't work.
JS: Grid inherits from table, right?
RS: I don't think you can do a
blanket statement on this one.
... Is this for particular roles, or not?
JS: The only ones I can think of
at the moment are table and list.
... Others?
RS: What if we say something like
the structure matches the overriding role?
... A dialog has no structure.
... If you put a grid on a list, that makes it even more
challenging.
... I think I would just special-case a couple of these.
JS: Which?
RS: I think what I would do is
say that when you're overriding a table, the structure would
have to align with the overriding role.
... If there is no structure, they all become
presentational.
JS: I can see someone using a list as well, just to get the layout.
RS: Is it just for dialog?
JS: No, that's just something I
came up with.
... Actually, it came up in a conversation between Alex and
James N.
... Alex had said the table remains a table.
RS: You cannot do that.
JS: So there was a compromise, to put a div around the whole table.
RS: Fake nodes are a mess
though.
... I think that's Joanie was talking about last week.
... Is it just for dialogs, or other things?
JS: Dialog is the one mentioned.
RS: You can make it an authoring error.
JS: Table is used for
layout.
... I think Dojo might have even used a table element with role
button.
RS: Why don't we just way, with the exception of grid or table, if you put a role on top of table, it becomes presentational?
JS: Or their subclasses? Because there's treegrid.
RS: Does grid subclass table?
JS: I think so.
RS: So if the semantics are the same, of you have a subclass, then the descendants become presentational.
JD: I think what Rich is
describing makes sense.
... Though due to scribing I'm only *mostly* listening and
thinking.
<clown> If the host language element has required owned elements, and its native role is overridden by a WAI-ARIA role, then treat the required owned elements as having role presentation or none.
JD: That said, if we can come up with text that cleanly/clearly expresses what Rich is saying, then it probably makes sense to do so.
<clown> "If the host language element has required owned elements, and its native semantics is overridden by a WAI-ARIA role, then treat the required owned elements as having role presentation or none. "
<clown> If the host language element has required owned elements, and its native semantics or structure is overridden by a WAI-ARIA role, then treat the required owned elements as having role presentation or none.
JD: It's really not so much subclass; it's more like when the role's required owned elements are in conflict with the native required owned elements.
JS: Above I put a new version of the text in which just changed one word.
RS: But what about gridcell versus cell?
JS: The difference there is
interactive.
... In my replacement, I changed "native role" to "native
semantics" and then to "native semantics or structure"
JD: I generally agree with what
Joseph is saying.
... The owned children are what are being trumped.
<clown> If the host language element has required owned elements, and it is overridden by a WAI-ARIA role that has a different structure, then treat the required owned elements as having role presentation or none.
JD: And we don't want to have to have a paragraph for each scenario.
JS: What about the above text?
RS: I think you need to go back to native host language semantics.
<Rich> Proposal: If the host language element is ovveridden by an ARIA role whose semantics are not equiavalent to the native host language semantics or a subclass of those semantics then the required owned elements become presentation or none.
JS: I want to tweak that slightly.
<clown> Proposal: If the host language element is ovveridden by an ARIA role whose semantics or structure is not equiavalent to the native host language semantics or a subclass of those semantics, then the required owned elements become presentation or none.
JS: So in the above I just added "or structure"
RS: I'm okay with that.
... You may need to check with Alex.
JS: I think they're already doing
this.
... I think eventually he was convinced that the semantics
really do change.
... There was even a weird case where Oracle was using the CSS
table markup.
... So it looks like a table on screen.
... And Gecko was not exposing it as a table; but as divs and
spans.
... Anyway, if I make the changes discussed here, can I close
this?
RS: Yes.
<clown> issue-661
<trackbot> issue-661 -- UAIG1.1: Specify how to map children of table/lists with role presentation. -- open
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/661
JS: Isn't that what we just
did?
... Actually, this is different.
... I think this is finished.
... I have a bunch of actions on this.
... All the actions are closed.
<clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-presentation
JS: The text for
role="presentation" already has information in it (above
URL)
... So I think this action is done.
... (Reads mapping)
... Can I close this issue?
RS: Yes.
JD: I saw this and closed it.
<clown> issue-677
<trackbot> issue-677 -- ATK/AT-SPI mapping of role="presentation" to ROLE_PANEL is incorrect. -- closed
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/677
JS: When I looked at this the
other day and thought it was closed.
... Joanie had raised it a while back.
... The mapping is now ROLE_SECTION.
... Joanie commented on when it was fixed and closed the
action.
... (Reads Joanie's comment on the action)
<clown> issue-487
<trackbot> issue-487 -- List managed states and define mappings for managed states -- open
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/487
JS: I think this is
defunct.
... Actually, no. I think it's a duplicate.
<clown> issue-706?
<trackbot> issue-706 -- Describe/define AAPI managed states -- open
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/706
JS: And issue-706 has Cynthia's action.
RS: So she still needs to do it?
JS: Yes.
<clown> issue-487
<trackbot> issue-487 -- List managed states and define mappings for managed states -- open
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/487
JS: My question is: Is issue-487 a duplicate of issue-706?
RS: Yes.
JS: Ok, I'll close the former as a duplicate of the latter.
issue-441
<trackbot> issue-441 -- Normative UAIG requirements for what UAs do when aria-posinset or aria-setsize is provided explicitly on some, but not all, elements within a set. -- open
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/441
<clown> issue-441
<trackbot> issue-441 -- Normative UAIG requirements for what UAs do when aria-posinset or aria-setsize is provided explicitly on some, but not all, elements within a set. -- open
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/441
JS: I think Cynthia has an action
for this.
... What user agents are supposed to do when posinset and
setsize are only provided on some items in the set.
RS: Didn't we deal with this in ARIA 1.0?
JS: No.
... We might have opened it in ARIA 1.0.
<clown> action-1373
<trackbot> action-1373 -- Cynthia Shelly to Create a test case for when aria-posinset and aria-setsize are provided explicitly on some but not all elements. -- due 2016-08-02 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1373
RS: Do we have an action?
JS: Yes, action-1373. Due August 2nd.
RS: Should we reassign this?
JS: You want it?
RS: Sure.
JS: I would rather ask her first.
RS: Why can't we leave it as undefined?
JS: If you don't put it on
anything, Firefox figures it out.
... But it might not be correct.
RS: My personal belief is that
authors should set them.
... I don't know if it's something we should try to fix.
JS: It was created back in
2011.
... But it doesn't say who created it.
RS: This is before ARIA 1.0
shipped.
... I think this is not important.
... And it's unreliable.
... Because no one is going to do it the same way.
JS: Her action is to create a test case.
RS: I don't think this is worth
doing.
... I recommend we close it.
JD: Not saying anything at all seems bad though.
<clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#mapping_additional_position
RS: It's an error condition.
<clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#mapping_additional_position
JS: I just found text in the mapping spec which tells you how to fix it (above URL).
RS: But that's group position.
JS: Keep reading. Third paragraph.
RS: So there in or they're
out.
... But what happens when posinset is there and setsize is
not.
... If they're not provided, user agents must compute them as
follows.
... But if one of them is provided, then it's up to the author
to do the setting.
... And you might have inconsistent results.
... But we shouldn't try to repair them.
JS: So what the user agent does is undefined?
RS: Yes.
... It's up to the author to maintain these values.
... Not the user agent.
JS: Do you want to add a sentence to that effect, or just leave it alone?
<Rich> Proposal: If the author provides one or more of aria-setsize and aria-posinset it up to the author to maintain the values and user agent correction of these values is not defined.
JD: Looking at the ARIA spec, https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#aria-posinset, it says authors SHOULD provide aria-setsize.
RS: Above is my proposal.
JS: I can wordsmith that.
... I'm inclined to put it in the author-error section.
<Rich> Proposal: If the author provides one or more of aria-setsize and aria-posinset it is up to the author to maintain the values and user agent correction of these values is not defined.
JS: And then close the issue and
action.
... And Cynthia's test case action evaporates?
RS: Yes, because it's undefined.
JS: I'll triple-check with her though.
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.144 of Date: 2015/11/17 08:39:34 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/you're/your/ Succeeded: s/these?/these./ Succeeded: s/I close/I'll close/ Found embedded ScribeOptions: -final *** RESTARTING DUE TO EMBEDDED OPTIONS *** Found Scribe: joanie Inferring ScribeNick: joanie Default Present: Joanmarie_Diggs, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Bryan_Garaventa, Rich_Schwerdtfeger Present: Joanmarie_Diggs Joseph_Scheuhammer Bryan_Garaventa Rich_Schwerdtfeger Regrets: Cynthia_Shelly Found Date: 05 Jul 2016 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2016/07/05-aapi-minutes.html People with action items: WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]