See also: IRC log
<scribe> scribe:cpandhi
Ian: CSUN is approaching and
might be interest to APG
... put together 2 or 3 design patterns and ask people to take
a look and provide feedback or suggestions
... appropriate patterns on best experiences with visual
appearance and keyboard
<Birkir> Menu/menubutton certainly come to mind as ideal candidates for user testing.
MCK: also something we want to do at the conference, name and place and volunteers to work on it
Ian: CSUN is a big event and encourage people to provide feedback, we have a room for Sat morning, lot of people may have left by that time, use that time
<Birkir> I will be there on Sat morning (I fly out Sunday), happy to help out.
Ian: Some time at CSUN and collect the feedback Sat morning in an in person event, questions really simple and get responses
MCK: suggestion for best practices, authoring guide, i would like to do user research at some poit
<jemma> I am happy to help.
Ian: not necessary APG, which patterns we could use from broad range of people
MCK: looking for ideas or people
or both?
... figure out online social space, personally i can help or
just observe
... Screen reader suite
Ian: put this in a solid proposal, we have a room for Sat
Birkir: patterns by AT vendors
James: we calling user not
identified
... Bryan thank you
Jakim,next item
MCK: on the landmark Jon had
specific questions we need to address, lot of feedback, lets
see if we can get done with 15 or 20 minutes
... lets start with document roles, i have opinion on
application and document roles, both mean entire web page
MG: when the spec is talking about document and application roles, it can have other roles
MCK: if we replace the roles with web page it will be more clear
MB: not clear
MCK: who can paste the note in the chat
MG: note or the normative part
<jamesn> Banner says : "Within any document or application, the author SHOULD mark no more than one element with the banner role."
<jamesn> Note
<jamesn> Because document and application elements can be nested in the DOM, they may have multiple banner elements as DOM descendants, assuming each of those is associated with different document nodes, either by a DOM nesting (e.g., document within document) or by use of the aria-owns attribute.
MG: It also has a note
James: if you change this to web page how it is different?
MCK: it says within any document
or application
... document role does not have any use outside of page
James: the document role explicitly used on the body role
MCK: you mean the browser does that
Ann: on pages with iframe, banner maps to header and same can be said for footer
MCK: common across in Facebook,
you have banner and then inside the page you have different
roles, idea is there is Facebook banner present and different
parts in the page consistently present that provide information
of different componants
... done some experiments and have been very successful, site
within a site
Ann: are you making a case for multiple banners?
MCK: Most applications are not children but the banner and titling is not contained in the blue bar
Ann: it not a child
MCK: it is not a nested
region
... there might be something in between
... we don't have to dive deep, we need to consider real world
practice
MB: i am not familiar with Facebook, can you actually have a website within a website, sounds wierd
MCK: site within a site
... The main content is the feed, on the left is complimentary
content for that musician
... in the main you have the feed which changes and the
complimentary stays same
... You can have feeds, styles, members, different parts of
groups
... banner content is important
<Birkir> ... sounds like the Facebook example has a whole webpage embedded withint the webpage, but there is no landmark role fit for that purpose.
MCK: h1 header cannot be complimentary as it names the main content
MG: information on different sections are tabs, then header can be just header in the main that contains the name and followers could be aside
MB: with a new feed role
Ann: would that be a question for the ARIA call?
MCK: specific example, could be publicly visible
<mck> https://www.facebook.com/BEATonline.org/
LJWatson: if we use header and footer element in the main they may not mapped
MCK: Talking about an example page from face book., one page is not labelled, second is labelled, immediately following is complementary not labelled and then there is the main which has the feed
MG: there is only one role of
banner
... Beat children is the banner
MCK: what are you looking at it with, if there is only one banner,
MG: looking in Chrome
MCK: maybe you have to be logged in
Ann: i can see 2 banners
MG: in explorer i see 2 banners
MCK: when logged in you see 2
banners if not you see one
... in this case you have the cover photo and the title, the
like button and more options and more tabs
... following the banner is a long complimentary aside,
followed by news feed
... if you go to about, the main content changes
... have a hard time to come up with a different role then
banner as this is a key part of the beat experience
<Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to say it seems to me there should be a document role around everything then you could have a banner and a main in it
James: You can solve this with what we have, we can have a banner, then you can have a document and then a banner and other roles in it, why we can not call it a document
MB: does the document role have any implications?
MCK: calling it a document is
confusing to me
... this is a common pattern, example the Apple app store,
there is information on different apps and in the main you have
the content for the main content
Ann: why would the children theater be main?
<Birkir> For examples where you have a webpage within a webpage, or section of the webpage with closely related content that does not fall under ARIA I have used the region role.
MCK: it is not the main content, on the timeline the news is the main content
Brian: we could use role of region, how is this different
MCK: agree, only that region is not descriptive, you need another word like title or banner, what would you name that region
Brian: you do not have to identify the region and have a label
MCK: i have use aria region
breadcrumbs
... you can add layers to this, but you can use role of region,
are the ideas better?
LJWatson: cannot think of a single use case, other reason is lot of extra navigation for an AT user
<jamesn> +1 to Leonie
<MichielBijl> +1
LJWatson, if you take an banner inside the main then we have a way to navigate easily
MCK: asking what is the best solution
LJWatson: i do not like the
appearance of banner anywhere other then the top on the
page
... if you have multiple banner, it is difficult to parse,
commenting on a specific page implementation, we should look at
many pages
... opening up a pathway to confusion for developers
<MichielBijl> +1 to that
Brian: we have nothing to map
MCK: we don't tell folks to use multiple complimentary and aside, if you explain the developer what content goes in what landmark, h1 and h2 are not always the first thing in the content
LJWatson: what kind of element would be the parent for banner?
MCK: every element is the first child
LJWatson, whats the parent element in your case
LJWatson: there is no other landmark to get to it
<mck> https://www.facebook.com/BEATonline.org/
MCK: we went too far on thi, need
to have offline discussion with a few
... what we are really saying is that there should be only one
banner in a page, then we consider iframe that can be
considered a separate page, screen reader users find that
annoying
... did we answer the question does the document really mean a
page or document role
<jamesn> +1 to that
Ann: in FF the document role on the body
MCK: we recently put new text for document role
Brian: document role is not a landmark
Ann: reads the new definition
<annabbott> ARIA 1.1 Spec > role=document
<annabbott> An element containing content that assistive technology users may want to browse in a reading mode.
<annabbott> When user agent focus moves to an element assigned the role of document, assistive technologies having a reading mode for browsing static content MAY switch to that reading mode and intercept standard input events, such as Up or Down arrow keyboard events, to control the reading cursor.
<annabbott> Because assistive technologies that have a reading mode default to that mode for all elements except for those with either a widget or application role, the only circumstance where the document role is useful for changing assistive technology behavior is when the element with role document is a focusable child element of a widget or application. For example, given an application element...
<annabbott> ...which contains some static rich text, the author can apply role document to the element containing the text and give it a tabindex of 0. When a screen reader user presses the Tab key and places focus on the document element, the user will be able to read the text with the screen reader's reading cursor.
MCK: is that paragraph describes you just said Brian, by default everything is document, never seen a case when the document role is in the body of the element, i think when we want to limit something to a page
Ann: that might need a change to the spec
MCK: i will take an action
Ann: i will tell that was the outcome was
<mck> ACTION matt_king to propose new text for landmark regions that restrict scope based on document and application roles
<trackbot> Error finding 'matt_king'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/users>.
<mck> ACTION Matt to propose new text for landmark regions that restrict scope based on document and application roles
<trackbot> 'Matt' is an ambiguous username. Please try a different identifier, such as family name or username (e.g., mgarrish, mking3).
<mck> ACTION mking3 to propose new text for landmark regions that restrict scope based on document and application roles
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2014 - Propose new text for landmark regions that restrict scope based on document and application roles [on Matthew King - due 2016-02-15].
<MichielBijl> ACTION mking test
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2015 - Test [on Matthew King - due 2016-02-15].
MCK: We did not answered all the
questions
... we answered the banner question
... Ann it will be helpful you look for Leoni's note she had
good feedback
<MichielBijl> Link to Léonie's comments: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Feb/0124.html
JN: agree with the comments, i have not provided my own comments, should discuss her feedback is normally very good
MCK: should we have a separate section for landmarks
Ann: we should
James: users of lamdmarks are
different from users of widgets
... if we put in the same section , people will keep scrolling
and get confused
MB: talking about the title of the sections, in the document outline for design patterns is confusing, make more sense to separate landmarks roles
Ann: design patterns: landmark roles and design patterns: widgets
MCK, what John and Ann are writing more of a user guide methodology because you can;t directly implement whats there
Ann we are past the time
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.144 of Date: 2015/11/17 08:39:34 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/James:/Ian:/ Succeeded: s/James:put/Ian:put/ Succeeded: s/James: put/Ian: put/ Succeeded: s/MG/MB/ Succeeded: s/defination/definition/ Succeeded: s/Lemony/Léonie/ Succeeded: s/MB/JN/ Found Scribe: cpandhi Inferring ScribeNick: cpandhi Default Present: JamesNurthen, CBAveritt, IanPouncey, LJWatson, matt_king, JaeunJemmaKu, Michiel_Bijl, AnnAbbott, Birkir, Charu, JonGunderson Present: JamesNurthen CBAveritt IanPouncey LJWatson matt_king JaeunJemmaKu Michiel_Bijl AnnAbbott Birkir Charu JonGunderson Bryan WARNING: No meeting chair found! You should specify the meeting chair like this: <dbooth> Chair: dbooth Got date from IRC log name: 08 Feb 2016 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2016/02/08-aria-apg-minutes.html People with action items: WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]