<scribe> scribe:cpandhi

Ian: CSUN is approaching and might be interest to APG
... put together 2 or 3 design patterns and ask people to take a look and provide feedback or suggestions
... appropriate patterns on best experiences with visual appearance and keyboard

<Birkir> Menu/menubutton certainly come to mind as ideal candidates for user testing.

MCK: also something we want to do at the conference, name and place and volunteers to work on it

Ian: CSUN is a big event and encourage people to provide feedback, we have a room for Sat morning, lot of people may have left by that time, use that time

<Birkir> I will be there on Sat morning (I fly out Sunday), happy to help out.

Ian: Some time at CSUN and collect the feedback Sat morning in an in person event, questions really simple and get responses

MCK: suggestion for best practices, authoring guide, i would like to do user research at some poit

<jemma> I am happy to help.

Ian: not necessary APG, which patterns we could use from broad range of people

MCK: looking for ideas or people or both?
... figure out online social space, personally i can help or just observe
... Screen reader suite

Ian: put this in a solid proposal, we have a room for Sat

Birkir: patterns by AT vendors

James: we calling user not identified
... Bryan thank you

Jakim,next item

Landmark guidance review https://rawgit.com/jongund/aria/master/practices/aria-practices.html

MCK: on the landmark Jon had specific questions we need to address, lot of feedback, lets see if we can get done with 15 or 20 minutes
... lets start with document roles, i have opinion on application and document roles, both mean entire web page

MG: when the spec is talking about document and application roles, it can have other roles

MCK: if we replace the roles with web page it will be more clear

MB: not clear

MCK: who can paste the note in the chat

MG: note or the normative part

<jamesn> Banner says : "Within any document or application, the author SHOULD mark no more than one element with the banner role."

<jamesn> Note

<jamesn> Because document and application elements can be nested in the DOM, they may have multiple banner elements as DOM descendants, assuming each of those is associated with different document nodes, either by a DOM nesting (e.g., document within document) or by use of the aria-owns attribute.

MG: It also has a note

James: if you change this to web page how it is different?

MCK: it says within any document or application
... document role does not have any use outside of page

James: the document role explicitly used on the body role

MCK: you mean the browser does that

Ann: on pages with iframe, banner maps to header and same can be said for footer

MCK: common across in Facebook, you have banner and then inside the page you have different roles, idea is there is Facebook banner present and different parts in the page consistently present that provide information of different componants
... done some experiments and have been very successful, site within a site

Ann: are you making a case for multiple banners?

MCK: Most applications are not children but the banner and titling is not contained in the blue bar

Ann: it not a child

MCK: it is not a nested region
... there might be something in between
... we don't have to dive deep, we need to consider real world practice

MB: i am not familiar with Facebook, can you actually have a website within a website, sounds wierd

MCK: site within a site
... The main content is the feed, on the left is complimentary content for that musician
... in the main you have the feed which changes and the complimentary stays same
... You can have feeds, styles, members, different parts of groups
... banner content is important

<Birkir> ... sounds like the Facebook example has a whole webpage embedded withint the webpage, but there is no landmark role fit for that purpose.

MCK: h1 header cannot be complimentary as it names the main content

MG: information on different sections are tabs, then header can be just header in the main that contains the name and followers could be aside

MB: with a new feed role

Ann: would that be a question for the ARIA call?

MCK: specific example, could be publicly visible

<mck> https://www.facebook.com/BEATonline.org/

LJWatson: if we use header and footer element in the main they may not mapped

MCK: Talking about an example page from face book., one page is not labelled, second is labelled, immediately following is complementary not labelled and then there is the main which has the feed

MG: there is only one role of banner
... Beat children is the banner

MCK: what are you looking at it with, if there is only one banner,

MG: looking in Chrome

MCK: maybe you have to be logged in

Ann: i can see 2 banners

MG: in explorer i see 2 banners

MCK: when logged in you see 2 banners if not you see one
... in this case you have the cover photo and the title, the like button and more options and more tabs
... following the banner is a long complimentary aside, followed by news feed
... if you go to about, the main content changes
... have a hard time to come up with a different role then banner as this is a key part of the beat experience

<Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to say it seems to me there should be a document role around everything then you could have a banner and a main in it

James: You can solve this with what we have, we can have a banner, then you can have a document and then a banner and other roles in it, why we can not call it a document

MB: does the document role have any implications?

MCK: calling it a document is confusing to me
... this is a common pattern, example the Apple app store, there is information on different apps and in the main you have the content for the main content

Ann: why would the children theater be main?

<Birkir> For examples where you have a webpage within a webpage, or section of the webpage with closely related content that does not fall under ARIA I have used the region role.

MCK: it is not the main content, on the timeline the news is the main content

Brian: we could use role of region, how is this different

MCK: agree, only that region is not descriptive, you need another word like title or banner, what would you name that region

Brian: you do not have to identify the region and have a label

MCK: i have use aria region breadcrumbs
... you can add layers to this, but you can use role of region, are the ideas better?

LJWatson: cannot think of a single use case, other reason is lot of extra navigation for an AT user

<jamesn> +1 to Leonie

<MichielBijl> +1

LJWatson, if you take an banner inside the main then we have a way to navigate easily

MCK: asking what is the best solution

LJWatson: i do not like the appearance of banner anywhere other then the top on the page
... if you have multiple banner, it is difficult to parse, commenting on a specific page implementation, we should look at many pages
... opening up a pathway to confusion for developers

<MichielBijl> +1 to that

Brian: we have nothing to map

MCK: we don't tell folks to use multiple complimentary and aside, if you explain the developer what content goes in what landmark, h1 and h2 are not always the first thing in the content

LJWatson: what kind of element would be the parent for banner?

MCK: every element is the first child

LJWatson, whats the parent element in your case

LJWatson: there is no other landmark to get to it

<mck> https://www.facebook.com/BEATonline.org/

MCK: we went too far on thi, need to have offline discussion with a few
... what we are really saying is that there should be only one banner in a page, then we consider iframe that can be considered a separate page, screen reader users find that annoying
... did we answer the question does the document really mean a page or document role

<jamesn> +1 to that

Ann: in FF the document role on the body

MCK: we recently put new text for document role

Brian: document role is not a landmark

Ann: reads the new definition

<annabbott> ARIA 1.1 Spec > role=document

<annabbott> An element containing content that assistive technology users may want to browse in a reading mode.

<annabbott> When user agent focus moves to an element assigned the role of document, assistive technologies having a reading mode for browsing static content MAY switch to that reading mode and intercept standard input events, such as Up or Down arrow keyboard events, to control the reading cursor.

<annabbott> Because assistive technologies that have a reading mode default to that mode for all elements except for those with either a widget or application role, the only circumstance where the document role is useful for changing assistive technology behavior is when the element with role document is a focusable child element of a widget or application. For example, given an application element...

<annabbott> ...which contains some static rich text, the author can apply role document to the element containing the text and give it a tabindex of 0. When a screen reader user presses the Tab key and places focus on the document element, the user will be able to read the text with the screen reader's reading cursor.

MCK: is that paragraph describes you just said Brian, by default everything is document, never seen a case when the document role is in the body of the element, i think when we want to limit something to a page

Ann: that might need a change to the spec

MCK: i will take an action

Ann: i will tell that was the outcome was

<mck> ACTION matt_king to propose new text for landmark regions that restrict scope based on document and application roles

<trackbot> Error finding 'matt_king'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/users>.

<mck> ACTION Matt to propose new text for landmark regions that restrict scope based on document and application roles

<trackbot> 'Matt' is an ambiguous username. Please try a different identifier, such as family name or username (e.g., mgarrish, mking3).

<mck> ACTION mking3 to propose new text for landmark regions that restrict scope based on document and application roles

<trackbot> Created ACTION-2014 - Propose new text for landmark regions that restrict scope based on document and application roles [on Matthew King - due 2016-02-15].

<MichielBijl> ACTION mking test

<trackbot> Created ACTION-2015 - Test [on Matthew King - due 2016-02-15].

MCK: We did not answered all the questions
... we answered the banner question
... Ann it will be helpful you look for Leoni's note she had good feedback

<MichielBijl> Link to Léonie's comments: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Feb/0124.html

JN: agree with the comments, i have not provided my own comments, should discuss her feedback is normally very good

MCK: should we have a separate section for landmarks

Ann: we should

James: users of lamdmarks are different from users of widgets
... if we put in the same section , people will keep scrolling and get confused

MB: talking about the title of the sections, in the document outline for design patterns is confusing, make more sense to separate landmarks roles

Ann: design patterns: landmark roles and design patterns: widgets

MCK, what John and Ann are writing more of a user guide methodology because you can;t directly implement whats there

Ann we are past the time

This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.144  of Date: 2015/11/17 08:39:34  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/James:/Ian:/
Succeeded: s/James:put/Ian:put/
Succeeded: s/James: put/Ian: put/
Succeeded: s/MG/MB/
Succeeded: s/defination/definition/
Succeeded: s/Lemony/Léonie/
Succeeded: s/MB/JN/
Found Scribe: cpandhi
Inferring ScribeNick: cpandhi
Default Present: JamesNurthen, CBAveritt, IanPouncey, LJWatson, matt_king, JaeunJemmaKu, Michiel_Bijl, AnnAbbott, Birkir, Charu, JonGunderson
Present: JamesNurthen CBAveritt IanPouncey LJWatson matt_king JaeunJemmaKu Michiel_Bijl AnnAbbott Birkir Charu JonGunderson Bryan

WARNING: No meeting chair found!
You should specify the meeting chair like this:
<dbooth> Chair: dbooth

Got date from IRC log name: 08 Feb 2016
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2016/02/08-aria-apg-minutes.html
People with action items: 

WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines.
You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.