17:57:58 RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg 17:57:58 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/02/08-aria-apg-irc 17:58:06 rrsagent, make log world 17:58:24 CB has joined #aria-apg 17:58:26 meeting: ARIA APG TF 17:59:42 present+ JamesNurthen 17:59:47 present+ CBAveritt 18:01:50 present+ IanPouncey 18:01:57 mck has joined #aria-apg 18:02:00 present+ LJWatson 18:02:18 present+ matt_king 18:02:20 jongund has joined #aria-apg 18:02:24 annabbott has joined #aria-apg 18:02:31 jemma has joined #aria-apg 18:02:55 cpandhi has joined #aria-apg 18:05:00 Birkir has joined #aria-apg 18:06:36 Agenda+ Landmark guidance review https://rawgit.com/jongund/aria/master/practices/aria-practices.html 18:06:36 Agenda+ Update pattern work assignments and status https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Aria-Authoring-Practices-Patterns-Status 18:06:36 Agenda+ Continue review text of section "2.32 Tool Bar" in the keyboard interaction notes http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.1/#toolbar 18:06:36 Agenda+ Review text of section 2.18 listbox https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/practices/aria-practices.html#Listbox 18:06:48 mck_ has joined #aria-apg 18:07:30 scribe:cpandhi 18:07:54 present+ JaeunJemmaKu 18:08:38 James: CSUN is approaching and might be interest to APG 18:08:56 s/James:/Ian:/ 18:09:26 James:put together 2 or 3 design patterns and ask people to take a look and provide feedback or suggestions 18:09:39 s/James:put/Ian:put/ 18:11:32 q+ to suggest Accordion for that 18:11:39 present+ Michiel_Bijl 18:11:47 Ian: appropriate patterns on best experiences with visual appearance and keyboard 18:12:09 Menu/menubutton certainly come to mind as ideal candidates for user testing. 18:13:04 MCK: also something we want to do at the conference, name and place and volunteers to work on it 18:14:15 Ian: CSUN is a big event and encourage people to provide feedback, we have a room for Sat morning, lot of people may have left by that time, use that time 18:15:23 I will be there on Sat morning (I fly out Sunday), happy to help out. 18:15:25 Ian: Some time at CSUN and collect the feedback Sat morning in an in person event, questions really simple and get responses 18:16:21 MCK: suggestion for best practices, authoring guide, i would like to do user research at some poit 18:16:33 I am happy to help. 18:16:41 q? 18:16:59 Ian: not necessary APG, which patterns we could use from broad range of people 18:17:13 q- 18:17:42 MCK: looking for ideas or people or both? 18:18:06 zakim, who is on the call? 18:18:06 Present: JamesNurthen, CBAveritt, IanPouncey, LJWatson, matt_king, JaeunJemmaKu, Michiel_Bijl 18:18:45 MCK: figure out online social space, personally i can help or just observe 18:18:45 present+ AnnAbbott Birkir Charu JonGunderson 18:18:49 zakim, who is on the call? 18:18:49 Present: JamesNurthen, CBAveritt, IanPouncey, LJWatson, matt_king, JaeunJemmaKu, Michiel_Bijl, AnnAbbott, Birkir, Charu, JonGunderson 18:19:26 MCK: Screen reader suite 18:19:48 James: put this in a solid proposal, we have a room for Sat 18:20:51 s/James: put/Ian: put/ 18:21:16 Birkir: patterns by AT vendors 18:21:38 James: we calling user not identified 18:22:14 James: Bryan thank you 18:22:14 present+ Bryan 18:22:45 Jakim,next item 18:22:52 zakim, next item 18:22:52 agendum 1. "Landmark guidance review https://rawgit.com/jongund/aria/master/practices/aria-practices.html" taken up [from jamesn] 18:23:58 MCK: on the landmark Jon had specific questions we need to address, lot of feedback, lets see if we can get done with 15 or 20 minutes 18:25:07 MCK: lets start with document roles, i have opinion on application and document roles, both mean entire web page 18:26:00 MG: when the spec is talking about document and application roles, it can have other roles 18:26:22 MCK: if we replace the roles with web page it will be more clear 18:26:37 MB: not clear 18:26:51 MCK: who can paste the note in the chat 18:27:03 MG: note or the normative part 18:27:08 Banner says : "Within any document or application, the author SHOULD mark no more than one element with the banner role." 18:27:20 Note 18:27:20 Because document and application elements can be nested in the DOM, they may have multiple banner elements as DOM descendants, assuming each of those is associated with different document nodes, either by a DOM nesting (e.g., document within document) or by use of the aria-owns attribute. 18:27:26 MG:It also has a note 18:28:41 James: if you change this to web page how it is different? 18:29:08 MCK: it says within any document or application 18:29:50 MCK: document role does not have any use outside of page 18:31:28 James: the document role explicitly used on the body role 18:31:53 MCK: you mean the browser does that 18:32:53 Ann: on pages with iframe, banner maps to header and same can be said for footer 18:35:16 MCK: common across in Facebook, you have banner and then inside the page you have different roles, idea is there is Facebook banner present and different parts in the page consistently present that provide information of different componants 18:35:50 MCK: done some experiments and have been very successful, site within a site 18:36:11 Ann: are you making a case for multiple banners? 18:36:56 MCK: Most applications are not children but the banner and titling is not contained in the blue bar 18:37:07 Ann: it not a child 18:37:20 MCK: it is not a nested region 18:37:38 MCK: there might be something in between 18:37:57 q+ 18:38:46 q? 18:38:57 MCk: we don't have to dive deep, we need to consider real world practice 18:39:37 MB: i am not familiar with Facebook, can you actually have a website within a website, sounds wierd 18:39:41 q+ 18:39:53 MCK: site within a site 18:41:46 MCK: The main content is the feed, on the left is complimentary content for that musician 18:42:32 MCK: in the main you have the feed which changes and the complimentary stays same 18:43:04 MCK: You can have feeds, styles, members, different parts of groups 18:43:35 MCK: banner content is important 18:43:41 ... sounds like the Facebook example has a whole webpage embedded withint the webpage, but there is no landmark role fit for that purpose. 18:44:14 MCK: h1 header cannot be complimentary as it names the main content 18:45:39 MG: information on different sections are tabs, then header can be just header in the main that contains the name and followers could be aside 18:46:05 MB: with a new feed role 18:46:23 Ann: would that be a question for the ARIA call? 18:46:56 MCK: specific example, could be publicly visible 18:47:05 ack me 18:48:39 https://www.facebook.com/BEATonline.org/ 18:48:47 LJWatson: if we use header and footer element in the main they may not mapped 18:49:11 tink has joined #aria-apg 18:50:24 MCK: Talking about an example page from face book., one page is not labelled, second is labelled, immediately following is complementary not labelled and then there is the main which has the feed 18:50:45 MG: there is only one role of banner 18:51:05 MG: Beat children is the banner 18:51:48 MCK: what are you looking at it with, if there is only one banner, 18:52:07 MG: looking in Chrome 18:52:20 MCK: maybe you have to be logged in 18:52:32 Ann: i can see 2 banners 18:52:45 MG: in explorer i see 2 banners 18:53:08 MCK: when logged in you see 2 banners if not you see one 18:53:55 MCK: in this case you have the cover photo and the title, the like button and more options and more tabs 18:54:28 q+ 18:54:30 MCK: following the banner is a long complimentary aside, followed by news feed 18:54:37 q- 18:54:46 MCK: if you go to about, the main content changes 18:55:05 q+ to say it seems to me there should be a document role around everything then you could have a banner and a main in it 18:55:31 MCK: have a hard time to come up with a different role then banner as this is a key part of the beat experience 18:55:32 q? 18:55:37 q? 18:55:44 ack LJ 18:55:47 ack me 18:55:47 jamesn, you wanted to say it seems to me there should be a document role around everything then you could have a banner and a main in it 18:56:01 ack e 18:56:47 James: You can solve this with what we have, we can have a banner, then you can have a document and then a banner and other roles in it, why we can not call it a document 18:57:11 MG: does the document role have any implications? 18:57:27 MCK: calling it a document is confusing to me 18:57:43 s/MG/MB/ 18:59:12 MCK: this is a common pattern, example the Apple app store, there is information on different apps and in the main you have the content for the main content 18:59:28 Ann: why would the children theater be main? 18:59:55 For examples where you have a webpage within a webpage, or section of the webpage with closely related content that does not fall under ARIA I have used the region role. 18:59:58 MCK: it is not the main content, on the timeline the news is the main content 19:00:21 Brian: we could use role of region, how is this different 19:01:03 MCK: agree, only that region is not descriptive, you need another word like title or banner, what would you name that region 19:01:34 Brian: you do not have to identify the region and have a label 19:02:13 MCK: i have use aria region breadcrumbs 19:02:52 MCK: you can add layers to this, but you can use role of region, are the ideas better? 19:03:55 LJWatson: cannot think of a single use case, other reason is lot of extra navigation for an AT user 19:04:00 +1 to Leonie 19:04:10 +1 19:04:42 LJWatson, if you take an banner inside the main then we have a way to navigate easily 19:04:58 MCK: asking what is the best solution 19:05:35 LJWatson: i do not like the appearance of banner anywhere other then the top on the page 19:06:38 LJWatson: if you have multiple banner, it is difficult to parse, commenting on a specific page implementation, we should look at many pages 19:07:10 LJWatson: opening up a pathway to confusion for developers 19:07:13 +1 to that 19:07:35 Brian: we have nothing to map 19:09:46 MCK: we don't tell folks to use multiple complimentary and aside, if you explain the developer what content goes in what landmark, h1 and h2 are not always the first thing in the content 19:10:09 LJWatson: what kind of element would be the parent for banner? 19:10:31 MCK: every element is the first child 19:11:03 LJWatson, whats the parent element in your case 19:11:33 LJWatson: there is no other landmark to get to it 19:11:36 https://www.facebook.com/BEATonline.org/ 19:12:05 MCK: we went too far on thi, need to have offline discussion with a few 19:13:10 MCK: what we are really saying is that there should be only one banner in a page, then we consider iframe that can be considered a separate page, screen reader users find that annoying 19:13:41 MCK: did we answer the question does the document really mean a page or document role 19:13:57 +1 to that 19:13:59 Ann: in FF the document role on the body 19:14:28 MCK: we recently put new text for document role 19:14:51 Brian: document role is not a landmark 19:15:24 Ann: reads the new defination 19:15:36 s/defination/definition/ 19:17:23 ARIA 1.1 Spec > role=document 19:17:29 An element containing content that assistive technology users may want to browse in a reading mode. 19:17:30 When user agent focus moves to an element assigned the role of document, assistive technologies having a reading mode for browsing static content MAY switch to that reading mode and intercept standard input events, such as Up or Down arrow keyboard events, to control the reading cursor. 19:17:32 Because assistive technologies that have a reading mode default to that mode for all elements except for those with either a widget or application role, the only circumstance where the document role is useful for changing assistive technology behavior is when the element with role document is a focusable child element of a widget or application. For example, given an application element... 19:17:33 ...which contains some static rich text, the author can apply role document to the element containing the text and give it a tabindex of 0. When a screen reader user presses the Tab key and places focus on the document element, the user will be able to read the text with the screen reader's reading cursor. 19:19:04 MCK: is that paragraph describes you just said Brian, by default everything is document, never seen a case when the document role is in the body of the element, i think when we want to limit something to a page 19:19:18 Ann: that might need a change to the spec 19:19:28 MCK: i will take an action 19:19:45 Ann: i will tell that was the outcome was 19:20:24 ACTION matt_king to propose new text for landmark regions that restrict scope based on document and application roles 19:20:24 Error finding 'matt_king'. You can review and register nicknames at . 19:21:24 ACTION Matt to propose new text for landmark regions that restrict scope based on document and application roles 19:21:24 'Matt' is an ambiguous username. Please try a different identifier, such as family name or username (e.g., mgarrish, mking3). 19:21:53 ACTION mking3 to propose new text for landmark regions that restrict scope based on document and application roles 19:21:53 Created ACTION-2014 - Propose new text for landmark regions that restrict scope based on document and application roles [on Matthew King - due 2016-02-15]. 19:22:18 ACTION mking test 19:22:18 Created ACTION-2015 - Test [on Matthew King - due 2016-02-15]. 19:23:38 MCK: We did not answered all the questions 19:23:51 MCK: we answered the banner question 19:25:05 MCK: Ann it will be helpful you look for Leoni's note she had good feedback 19:25:18 Link to Lemony's comments: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Feb/0124.html 19:25:26 s/Lemony/Léonie/ 19:26:05 MB: agree with the comments, i have not provided my own comments, should discuss her feedback is normally very good 19:26:28 MCK: should we have a separate section for landmarks 19:26:34 Ann: we should 19:26:34 s/MB/JN/ 19:27:25 James: users of lamdmarks are different from users of widgets 19:28:03 James: if we put in the same section , people will keep scrolling and get confused 19:29:23 MB: talking about the title of the sections, in the document outline for design patterns is confusing, make more sense to separate landmarks roles 19:30:03 Ann: design patterns: landmark roles and design patterns: widgets 19:31:04 MCK, what John and Ann are writing more of a user guide methodology because you can;t directly implement whats there 19:31:34 Ann we are past the time 19:32:34 rrsagent, make minutes 19:32:34 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/08-aria-apg-minutes.html mck 19:33:18 rrsagent, make log world 19:33:49 zakim, bye 19:33:49 leaving. As of this point the attendees have been JamesNurthen, CBAveritt, IanPouncey, LJWatson, matt_king, JaeunJemmaKu, Michiel_Bijl, AnnAbbott, Birkir, Charu, JonGunderson, 19:33:49 Zakim has left #aria-apg 19:33:52 ... Bryan 19:34:00 rrsagent, make minutes 19:34:00 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/08-aria-apg-minutes.html mck 19:35:37 https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m6788719021c7b2397692be64e57b7470 19:35:56 https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m5d67b552441a72bd1f52d696ad273d2e 19:36:56 zakim, excuse us 20:09:18 zakim, who's your daddy? 20:09:42 ah - zakim is gone 21:11:15 Haha 21:11:35 Should I sent that to spec-prod@w3.org? 21:22:39 annabbott has joined #aria-apg 21:22:45 jongund has joined #aria-apg 21:32:49 The use of landmarks roles support keyboard navigation to the structure of a web page for screen reader users. 21:33:02 boerst has joined #aria-apg 21:33:19 The use of landmarks roles support keyboard navigation to the structure of a web page for screen reader users. 21:36:11 Landmarks provide a powerful way to identify the organization and structure of web pages within websites and web applications. 21:40:45 Landmarks provide a powerful way to identify the organization and structure of web pages within websites and web applications. 21:40:46 This section is intended to assist designers, developers and quality assurance staff in defining and understanding the importance of logical, usable, and accessible layout for assistive technologies 21:40:48 using HTML5 sectioning elements and ARIA landmark roles. 21:40:49 The structural information conveyed visually to users should be represented programmatically in the markup using landmark roles. 21:40:51 The use of landmarks roles support keyboard navigation to the structure of a web page for screen reader users and can be used as targets for author supplied "skip Links" and browser extensions for enhanced keyboard navigation.