<trackbot> Date: 08 October 2015

<Kathy> meeting: Mobile A11Y TF

<Kathy> Agenda

<Kathy> + Kathy

<Kathy> present?

<AGarrison> zaki, next item

<Kathy> http://kwahlbin.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/

could u drop that in again

<Kathy> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Extension_Notes

<AGarrison> This document contains some of the short form information from WCAG

<Kathy> http://kwahlbin.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/

<AGarrison> Kathy - We need to start thinking about this, are there more techniques, are the techniques placed correctly, etc

<AGarrison> Kathy, 2.2.5 Touch and Point - we are still in the middle of thinking

<AGarrison> Kathy - The WCAG Group is coming up with guidelines for extensions, so we need to make sure that this is in line with that model

<AGarrison> Kathy - we can compare this document with others, to allow a look at what is needed

<AGarrison> David - Like the direction of the document. Maybe we should drop in all techniques in a show / hide manner

<AGarrison> Kathy - I was worried that all mobile techniques would be too much - but the show/hide would be useful

<AGarrison> David - There is a mechanism in one of my previous documents for show / hide.

<AGarrison> Kathy - It's on GitHub.

<AGarrison> Kathy - It has the usual "work in progress" statement. Is there any further text we need?

<AGarrison> David - It's sitting on KWalbin. It should be on the main WCAG account.

<AGarrison> Kathy - Where should it go?

<AGarrison> David - Do a pull request and fork the existing document set. Let's chat off-line.

<AGarrison> Kathy - Couple of comments from John.

<AGarrison> Kathy - Anyone look at this already?

<AGarrison> Kathy - We should all go through this looking at what's missing, what shouldn't be there, everything in the right place, etc...

<AGarrison> Kathy - Then we can look at show / hide

<AGarrison> Kathy - We'll leave this as something to review.

<AGarrison> David - First get it into W3C Mobile site.

<Kathy> http://kwahlbin.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/

<AGarrison> Kathy - We'll do that and we'll send a new link.

<Kathy> http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/Techniques/M023

<AGarrison> Next topic - Reviewing Technique M23

<AGarrison> Kathy - John wrote this. Covers selecting input type on a form field.

<AGarrison> Jan - Needs a few more examples.

<AGarrison> Kathy - In other techniques we have code.

<AGarrison> David - Snip of code + working example.

<AGarrison> My connection dropped - I'll dial back in!

<AGarrison> Back in...

<AGarrison> David - Couple of us need to look into command line resource

<AGarrison> Kathy - Looking at getting someone to look at it.

<AGarrison> Action - Include code and have a link to working example. Then make grammar fixes.

<trackbot> Error finding '-'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/track/users>.

<AGarrison> David - We'll store fixes in the same place as WCAG

<AGarrison> Kathy - Any other changes, etc...

<Kathy> http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/TouchProposal_Discussion.html

<AGarrison> Next topic - Touch proposal

<AGarrison> Kathy - We have the 5th draft of the modified touch document. 2.5.4

<AGarrison> Kathy - All functions available by touch...

<AGarrison> David - We need to kick the tyres - can we make the statement about all "System Assistive Technologies".

<AGarrison> David - But we need to define what a "System Assistive Technology" is.

<AGarrison> Kathy - If there is a SAT for speech.

<AGarrison> Jan - Switch control is a good example.

<AGarrison> Jan - It could be set to just "screen readers"

<AGarrison> Jan - We're talking to web developers.

<AGarrison> Jan - What do the developers do that is causing the issues?

<AGarrison> David - What if there are bugs in iOS, Android, etc... so we have to be very careful.

<AGarrison> David - If we looked at "System Screen Reader". But, what if there's a bug in that.

<AGarrison> Jan - This is now from the end user perspective.

<AGarrison> Jan - What do we want to "outlaw". What is the problem we are trying to get around?

<AGarrison> David - Its coding gestures that are used by the screen reader. So the gestures are hijacked by the screen reader.

<AGarrison> Jan - You can use conflicting gestures - the screen reader re-maps stuff.

<AGarrison> David - If they conflict then a screen-reader user cannot us the conflicting functionality.

<AGarrison> Alistair - The problem is you cannot reserve gestures for assistive technologies

<Jan> http://hammerjs.github.io/

<AGarrison> Jan - Samsung has custom additional gestures - what do you do then...

<AGarrison> David - Under WCAG 2.0 you need to ensure that everything works with assistive technology.

<AGarrison> Jan - In WCAG does it say that.

<AGarrison> David - All of this is under technology supported.

<AGarrison> Jan - The link is a JavaScript lib that adds touch gestures.

<AGarrison> Jan - Are we going back to touch gestures are great, but do we need additional support from buttons, etc...

<AGarrison> David - Touch gestures are here to stay, its just the conflict between the app and the screen-reader

<AGarrison> David - It's rare that the gestures conflict, and break things.

<AGarrison> Kathy - Maybe its more to do with conflicting gestures.

<AGarrison> David - Custom gestures should not conflict with screen-reader gestures.

<AGarrison> Alan - Everything we can do without AT can be available with AT off.

<AGarrison> Alan - Everything still needs to be able to work.

http://davidmacd.com/slides/qc/Mobile-WCAG4FR.pdf

<AGarrison> Alistair - What about you should not code gestures / touch that conflict with System Assistive Technologies.

<AGarrison> Alan - We need to make sure everything works when ATs are turned on.

<AGarrison> Jan - When ATs are turned on etc... it's a huge question. What browser, what AT etc...

<AGarrison> David - In WCAG, one combination should work.

<AGarrison> David - WCAG is for creating real world solutions.

<AGarrison> David - If something didn't work, but it would be coded to spec, it would still be a fail.

<AGarrison> Jan - I don't really agree. I could code a simple page which would work.

<AGarrison> David - There is the title attribute question. For years you should not use title, now its accessibility supported.

<AGarrison> David - Its always been around the end users.

<AGarrison> David - Do we want to continue with that?

<AGarrison> David - Do we just want to write the spec. Unfortunately some stuff does not work if you do that?

<AGarrison> David - Are we in possession of all the facts.

<AGarrison> David - What we need to do is answer "does it have to be all AT".

<AGarrison> David - It has to work when AT is switched on.

<AGarrison> David - It has to work without conflict. We could be talking about API level.

<AGarrison> David - We say that AT reports to its Accessibility API properly

<AGarrison> Alistair - There may not be an out and out Accessibility API

<AGarrison> David - One area of investigation would be can we map it to Accessibility API

<AGarrison> Action - To examine WCAG for success criterion that require the content to work with the System AT enabled.

<trackbot> Error finding '-'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/track/users>.

<AGarrison> Jan - 4.1.2 is the only place that talks about WCAG.

<AGarrison> David - There is a president - its an SC

<Jan> "4.1.2 Name, Role, Value: For all user interface components (including but not limited to: form elements, links and components generated by scripts), the name and role can be programmatically determined; states, properties, and values that can be set by the user can be programmatically set; and notification of changes to these items is available to user agents, including assistive technologies. (L

<Jan> evel A)"

<AGarrison> Jan - If you are making it available to user agents, you could assume it would work for assistive technology.

<AGarrison> Kathy - we need to come back to this.

<AGarrison> Kathy - we need to look at this more closely. There is also a touch event we need to look at - when touch is taken away.

<AGarrison> Kathy - we need to do a bit more research.

<AGarrison> David - to come up with a success criteria is difficult.

<scribe> scribe: David

<AGarrison> Do you need me?

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Default Present: Kathy, agarrison, jeanne, David_MacDonald, Detlev, marcjohlic, jon_avila, Alan
Present: Kathy marcjohlic

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Regrets: Kim Jeanne Henny Detlev Jon
Found Date: 08 Oct 2015
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2015/10/08-mobile-a11y-minutes.html
People with action items: 

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