14:52:02 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #mobile-a11y
14:52:02 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/10/08-mobile-a11y-irc
14:52:04 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:52:06 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF
14:52:06 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
14:52:07 <trackbot> Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:52:07 <trackbot> Date: 08 October 2015
14:52:14 <Kathy> meeting: Mobile A11Y TF
14:52:24 <Kathy> rrsagent, make log world
14:52:35 <Kathy> Chair: Kathy
14:52:59 <Kathy> Regrets+ Kim, Jeanne, Henny, Detlev, Jon
14:54:06 <Kathy> agenda+ Review draft of Mobile Accessibility Extension - http://kwahlbin.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/
14:54:13 <Kathy> Agenda
14:54:28 <Kathy> agenda?
14:54:40 <Kathy> zakim, clear agenda
14:54:40 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:54:43 <Kathy> agenda?
14:55:02 <Kathy> agenda+ Review draft of Mobile Accessibility Extension - http://kwahlbin.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/
14:55:17 <Kathy> agenda+ Review technique – m23 (http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/Techniques/M023)
14:55:33 <Kathy> agenda+ Continuation of the Discussion of Touch Proposal: http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/TouchProposal_Discussion.html
14:55:39 <Kathy> agenda?
14:55:53 <Kathy> + Kathy
14:55:59 <Kathy> present?
14:56:14 <Kathy> zakim, list attendees
14:56:14 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Kathy, agarrison, jeanne, David_MacDonald, Detlev, marcjohlic, jon_avila, Alan
14:56:54 <Kathy> present- Detlev
14:57:03 <Kathy> present- agarrison
14:57:07 <Kathy> present- jeanne
14:57:15 <Kathy> present- David_MacDonald
14:57:22 <Kathy> present- marcjohlic
14:57:29 <Kathy> present- jon_avila
14:57:33 <Kathy> present- Alan
14:57:44 <Kathy> zakim, list attendees
14:57:45 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Kathy, agarrison, jeanne, David_MacDonald, Detlev, marcjohlic, jon_avila, Alan
15:01:29 <marcjohlic> marcjohlic has joined #mobile-a11y
15:05:31 <Jan> Jan has joined #mobile-a11y
15:06:55 <marcjohlic> present+ marcjohlic
15:07:16 <Alan_> Alan_ has joined #mobile-a11y
15:07:52 <AGarrison> AGarrison has joined #mobile-a11y
15:08:08 <AGarrison> zakim, take up agenda
15:08:08 <Zakim> I don't understand 'take up agenda', AGarrison
15:08:20 <AGarrison> zaki, next item
15:08:31 <Kathy> http://kwahlbin.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/
15:09:12 <David> David has joined #mobile-a11y
15:09:23 <David> could u drop that in again
15:09:23 <Kathy> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Extension_Notes
15:09:26 <AGarrison> This document contains some of the short form information from WCAG
15:09:38 <Kathy> http://kwahlbin.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/
15:10:16 <AGarrison> Kathy - We need to start thinking about this, are there more techniques, are the techniques placed correctly, etc
15:10:36 <AGarrison> Kathy, 2.2.5 Touch and Point - we are still in the middle of thinking
15:11:12 <AGarrison> Kathy - The WCAG Group is coming up with guidelines for extensions, so we need to make sure that this is in line with that model
15:11:42 <AGarrison> Kathy - we can compare this document with others, to allow a look at what is needed
15:12:18 <AGarrison> David - Like the direction of the document.  Maybe we should drop in all techniques in a show / hide manner
15:13:00 <AGarrison> Kathy - I was worried that all mobile techniques would be too much - but the show/hide would be useful
15:13:27 <AGarrison> David - There is a mechanism in one of my previous documents for show / hide.
15:13:43 <AGarrison> Kathy - It's on GitHub.
15:14:09 <AGarrison> Kathy - It has the usual "work in progress" statement.  Is there any further text we need?
15:14:36 <AGarrison> David - It's sitting on KWalbin.  It should be on the main WCAG account.
15:15:02 <AGarrison> Kathy - Where should it go?
15:15:41 <AGarrison> David - Do a pull request and fork the existing document set.  Let's chat off-line.
15:16:03 <AGarrison> Kathy - Couple of comments from John.
15:16:18 <AGarrison> Kathy - Anyone look at this already?
15:16:58 <AGarrison> Kathy - We should all go through this looking at what's missing, what shouldn't be there, everything in the right place, etc...
15:17:15 <AGarrison> Kathy - Then we can look at show / hide
15:17:29 <AGarrison> Kathy - We'll leave this as something to review.
15:17:52 <AGarrison> David - First get it into W3C Mobile site.
15:17:57 <Kathy> http://kwahlbin.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/
15:18:08 <AGarrison> Kathy - We'll do that and we'll send a new link.
15:18:33 <Kathy> http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/Techniques/M023
15:18:37 <AGarrison> Next topic - Reviewing Technique M23
15:19:05 <AGarrison> Kathy - John wrote this.  Covers selecting input type on a form field.
15:20:27 <AGarrison> Jan - Needs a few more examples.
15:20:43 <AGarrison> Kathy - In other techniques we have code.
15:21:03 <AGarrison> David - Snip of code + working example.
15:21:33 <AGarrison> My connection dropped - I'll dial back in!
15:23:13 <AGarrison> Back in...
15:24:03 <AGarrison> David - Couple of us need to look into command line resource
15:24:27 <AGarrison> Kathy - Looking at getting someone to look at it.
15:25:16 <AGarrison> Action - Include code and have a link to working example.  Then make grammar fixes.
15:25:16 <trackbot> Error finding '-'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/track/users>.
15:25:45 <AGarrison> David - We'll store fixes in the same place as W3C
15:25:57 <AGarrison> Kathy - Any other changes, etc...
15:26:00 <Alan__> Alan__ has joined #mobile-a11y
15:26:19 <Kathy> http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/TouchProposal_Discussion.html
15:26:30 <AGarrison> Next topic - Touch proposal
15:26:35 <David> s/W3C/WCAG
15:26:53 <AGarrison> Kathy - We have the 5th draft of the modified touch document. 2.5.4
15:27:19 <AGarrison> Kathy - All functions available by touch...
15:27:57 <AGarrison> David - We need to kick the tyres - can we make the statement about all "System Assistive Technologies".
15:28:29 <AGarrison> David - But we need to define what a "System Assistive Technology" is.
15:28:45 <AGarrison> Kathy - If there is a SAT for speech.
15:29:03 <AGarrison> Jan - Switch control is a good example.
15:29:17 <AGarrison> Jan - It could be set to just "screen readers"
15:29:44 <AGarrison> Jan - We're talking to web developers.
15:30:13 <AGarrison> Jan - What do the developers do that is causing the issues?
15:30:40 <AGarrison> David - What if there are bugs in iOS, Android, etc... so we have to be very careful.
15:31:16 <AGarrison> David - If we looked at "System Screen Reader".  But, what if there's a bug in that.
15:31:28 <AGarrison> Jan - This is now from the end user perspective.
15:31:59 <AGarrison> Jan - What do we want to "outlaw".  What is the problem we are trying to get around?
15:32:50 <AGarrison> David - Its coding gestures that are used by the screen reader.  So the gestures are hijacked by the screen reader.
15:33:30 <AGarrison> Jan - You can use conflicting gestures - the screen reader re-maps stuff.
15:34:03 <AGarrison> David - If they conflict then a screen-reader user cannot us the conflicting functionality.
15:35:24 <AGarrison> Alistair - The problem is you cannot reserve gestures for assistive technologies
15:36:20 <Jan> http://hammerjs.github.io/
15:36:57 <AGarrison> Jan - Samsung has custom additional gestures - what do you do then...
15:37:42 <AGarrison> David - Under WCAG 2.0 you need to ensure that everything works with assistive technology.
15:37:54 <AGarrison> Jan - In WCAG does it say that.
15:38:14 <AGarrison> David - All of this is under technology supported.
15:38:44 <AGarrison> Jan - The link is a JavaScript lib that adds touch gestures.
15:39:32 <AGarrison> Jan - Are we going back to touch gestures are great, but do we need additional support from buttons, etc...
15:40:08 <AGarrison> David - Touch gestures are here to stay, its just the conflict between the app and the screen-reader
15:40:37 <AGarrison> David - It's rare that the gestures conflict, and break things.
15:41:34 <AGarrison> Kathy - Maybe its more to do with conflicting gestures.
15:42:03 <AGarrison> David - Custom gestures should not conflict with screen-reader gestures.
15:42:36 <AGarrison> Alan - Everything we can do without AT can be available with AT off.
15:43:02 <AGarrison> Alan - Everything still needs to be able to work.
15:43:35 <David> http://davidmacd.com/slides/qc/Mobile-WCAG4FR.pdf
15:44:06 <AGarrison> Alistair - What about you should not code gestures / touch that conflict with System Assistive Technologies.
15:44:26 <AGarrison> Alan - We need to make sure everything works when ATs are turned on.
15:45:05 <AGarrison> Jan - When ATs are turned on etc... it's a huge question.  What browser, what AT etc...
15:45:25 <AGarrison> David - In WCAG, one combination should work.
15:45:57 <AGarrison> David - WCAG is for creating real world solutions.
15:46:25 <AGarrison> David - If something didn't work, but it would be coded to spec, it would still be a fail.
15:46:47 <AGarrison> Jan - I don't really agree.  I could code a simple page which would work.
15:47:45 <AGarrison> David - There is the title attribute question.  For years you should not use title, now its accessibility supported.
15:48:01 <AGarrison> David - Its always been around the end users.
15:48:28 <AGarrison> David - Do we want to continue with that?
15:49:03 <AGarrison> David - Do we just want to write the spec.  Unfortunately some stuff does not work if you do that?
15:49:22 <AGarrison> David - Are we in possession of all the facts.
15:50:30 <AGarrison> David - What we need to do is answer "does it have to be all AT".
15:50:52 <AGarrison> David - It has to work when AT is switched on.
15:51:36 <AGarrison> David - It has to work without conflict.  We could be talking about API level.
15:56:25 <AGarrison> David - We say that AT reports to its Accessibility API properly
15:56:43 <AGarrison> Alistair - There may not be an out and out Accessibility API
15:57:12 <AGarrison> David - One area of investigation would be can we map it to Accessibility API
15:58:10 <AGarrison> Action - To examine WCAG for success criterion that require the content to work with the System AT enabled.
15:58:10 <trackbot> Error finding '-'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/track/users>.
15:58:31 <AGarrison> Jan - 4.1.2  is the only place that talks about WCAG.
15:58:57 <AGarrison> David - There is a president - its an SC
15:59:48 <Jan> "4.1.2 Name, Role, Value: For all user interface components (including but not limited to: form elements, links and components generated by scripts), the name and role can be programmatically determined; states, properties, and values that can be set by the user can be programmatically set; and notification of changes to these items is available to user agents, including assistive technologies. (L
15:59:50 <Jan> evel A)"
15:59:56 <AGarrison> Jan - If you are making it available to user agents, you could assume it would work for assistive technology.
16:00:08 <AGarrison> Kathy - we need to come back to this.
16:00:44 <AGarrison> Kathy - we need to look at this more closely.  There is also a touch event we need to look at - when touch is taken away.
16:01:08 <AGarrison> Kathy - we need to do a bit more research.
16:01:26 <AGarrison> David - to come up with a success criteria is difficult.
16:01:50 <David> scribe: David
16:02:24 <AGarrison> Do you need me?
16:02:35 <David> zakim, bye
16:02:35 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Kathy, agarrison, jeanne, David_MacDonald, Detlev, marcjohlic, jon_avila, Alan
16:02:35 <Zakim> Zakim has left #mobile-a11y
16:02:55 <David> rrsagent, make log public
16:03:13 <David> rrsagent, make minutes
16:03:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/08-mobile-a11y-minutes.html David
16:05:10 <MichaelC_> MichaelC_ has joined #mobile-a11y