IRC log of mobile-a11y on 2015-10-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:52:02 [RRSAgent]

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14:52:02 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/10/08-mobile-a11y-irc

14:52:04 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs public

14:52:06 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF

14:52:06 [Zakim]

I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot

14:52:07 [trackbot]

Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

14:52:07 [trackbot]

Date: 08 October 2015

14:52:14 [Kathy]

meeting: Mobile A11Y TF

14:52:24 [Kathy]

rrsagent, make log world

14:52:35 [Kathy]

Chair: Kathy

14:52:59 [Kathy]

Regrets+ Kim, Jeanne, Henny, Detlev, Jon

14:54:06 [Kathy]

agenda+ Review draft of Mobile Accessibility Extension - http://kwahlbin.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/

14:54:13 [Kathy]

Agenda

14:54:28 [Kathy]

agenda?

14:54:40 [Kathy]

zakim, clear agenda

14:54:40 [Zakim]

agenda cleared

14:54:43 [Kathy]

agenda?

14:55:02 [Kathy]

agenda+ Review draft of Mobile Accessibility Extension - http://kwahlbin.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/

14:55:17 [Kathy]

agenda+ Review technique – m23 (http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/Techniques/M023)

14:55:33 [Kathy]

agenda+ Continuation of the Discussion of Touch Proposal: http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/TouchProposal_Discussion.html

14:55:39 [Kathy]

agenda?

14:55:53 [Kathy]

+ Kathy

14:55:59 [Kathy]

present?

14:56:14 [Kathy]

zakim, list attendees

14:56:14 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been Kathy, agarrison, jeanne, David_MacDonald, Detlev, marcjohlic, jon_avila, Alan

14:56:54 [Kathy]

present- Detlev

14:57:03 [Kathy]

present- agarrison

14:57:07 [Kathy]

present- jeanne

14:57:15 [Kathy]

present- David_MacDonald

14:57:22 [Kathy]

present- marcjohlic

14:57:29 [Kathy]

present- jon_avila

14:57:33 [Kathy]

present- Alan

14:57:44 [Kathy]

zakim, list attendees

14:57:45 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been Kathy, agarrison, jeanne, David_MacDonald, Detlev, marcjohlic, jon_avila, Alan

15:01:29 [marcjohlic]

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15:05:31 [Jan]

Jan has joined #mobile-a11y

15:06:55 [marcjohlic]

present+ marcjohlic

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15:07:52 [AGarrison]

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15:08:08 [AGarrison]

zakim, take up agenda

15:08:08 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'take up agenda', AGarrison

15:08:20 [AGarrison]

zaki, next item

15:08:31 [Kathy]

http://kwahlbin.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/

15:09:12 [David]

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15:09:23 [David]

could u drop that in again

15:09:23 [Kathy]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Extension_Notes

15:09:26 [AGarrison]

This document contains some of the short form information from WCAG

15:09:38 [Kathy]

http://kwahlbin.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/

15:10:16 [AGarrison]

Kathy - We need to start thinking about this, are there more techniques, are the techniques placed correctly, etc

15:10:36 [AGarrison]

Kathy, 2.2.5 Touch and Point - we are still in the middle of thinking

15:11:12 [AGarrison]

Kathy - The WCAG Group is coming up with guidelines for extensions, so we need to make sure that this is in line with that model

15:11:42 [AGarrison]

Kathy - we can compare this document with others, to allow a look at what is needed

15:12:18 [AGarrison]

David - Like the direction of the document. Maybe we should drop in all techniques in a show / hide manner

15:13:00 [AGarrison]

Kathy - I was worried that all mobile techniques would be too much - but the show/hide would be useful

15:13:27 [AGarrison]

David - There is a mechanism in one of my previous documents for show / hide.

15:13:43 [AGarrison]

Kathy - It's on GitHub.

15:14:09 [AGarrison]

Kathy - It has the usual "work in progress" statement. Is there any further text we need?

15:14:36 [AGarrison]

David - It's sitting on KWalbin. It should be on the main WCAG account.

15:15:02 [AGarrison]

Kathy - Where should it go?

15:15:41 [AGarrison]

David - Do a pull request and fork the existing document set. Let's chat off-line.

15:16:03 [AGarrison]

Kathy - Couple of comments from John.

15:16:18 [AGarrison]

Kathy - Anyone look at this already?

15:16:58 [AGarrison]

Kathy - We should all go through this looking at what's missing, what shouldn't be there, everything in the right place, etc...

15:17:15 [AGarrison]

Kathy - Then we can look at show / hide

15:17:29 [AGarrison]

Kathy - We'll leave this as something to review.

15:17:52 [AGarrison]

David - First get it into W3C Mobile site.

15:17:57 [Kathy]

http://kwahlbin.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/

15:18:08 [AGarrison]

Kathy - We'll do that and we'll send a new link.

15:18:33 [Kathy]

http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/Techniques/M023

15:18:37 [AGarrison]

Next topic - Reviewing Technique M23

15:19:05 [AGarrison]

Kathy - John wrote this. Covers selecting input type on a form field.

15:20:27 [AGarrison]

Jan - Needs a few more examples.

15:20:43 [AGarrison]

Kathy - In other techniques we have code.

15:21:03 [AGarrison]

David - Snip of code + working example.

15:21:33 [AGarrison]

My connection dropped - I'll dial back in!

15:23:13 [AGarrison]

Back in...

15:24:03 [AGarrison]

David - Couple of us need to look into command line resource

15:24:27 [AGarrison]

Kathy - Looking at getting someone to look at it.

15:25:16 [AGarrison]

Action - Include code and have a link to working example. Then make grammar fixes.

15:25:16 [trackbot]

Error finding '-'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/track/users>.

15:25:45 [AGarrison]

David - We'll store fixes in the same place as W3C

15:25:57 [AGarrison]

Kathy - Any other changes, etc...

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15:26:19 [Kathy]

http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/TouchProposal_Discussion.html

15:26:30 [AGarrison]

Next topic - Touch proposal

15:26:35 [David]

s/W3C/WCAG

15:26:53 [AGarrison]

Kathy - We have the 5th draft of the modified touch document. 2.5.4

15:27:19 [AGarrison]

Kathy - All functions available by touch...

15:27:57 [AGarrison]

David - We need to kick the tyres - can we make the statement about all "System Assistive Technologies".

15:28:29 [AGarrison]

David - But we need to define what a "System Assistive Technology" is.

15:28:45 [AGarrison]

Kathy - If there is a SAT for speech.

15:29:03 [AGarrison]

Jan - Switch control is a good example.

15:29:17 [AGarrison]

Jan - It could be set to just "screen readers"

15:29:44 [AGarrison]

Jan - We're talking to web developers.

15:30:13 [AGarrison]

Jan - What do the developers do that is causing the issues?

15:30:40 [AGarrison]

David - What if there are bugs in iOS, Android, etc... so we have to be very careful.

15:31:16 [AGarrison]

David - If we looked at "System Screen Reader". But, what if there's a bug in that.

15:31:28 [AGarrison]

Jan - This is now from the end user perspective.

15:31:59 [AGarrison]

Jan - What do we want to "outlaw". What is the problem we are trying to get around?

15:32:50 [AGarrison]

David - Its coding gestures that are used by the screen reader. So the gestures are hijacked by the screen reader.

15:33:30 [AGarrison]

Jan - You can use conflicting gestures - the screen reader re-maps stuff.

15:34:03 [AGarrison]

David - If they conflict then a screen-reader user cannot us the conflicting functionality.

15:35:24 [AGarrison]

Alistair - The problem is you cannot reserve gestures for assistive technologies

15:36:20 [Jan]

http://hammerjs.github.io/

15:36:57 [AGarrison]

Jan - Samsung has custom additional gestures - what do you do then...

15:37:42 [AGarrison]

David - Under WCAG 2.0 you need to ensure that everything works with assistive technology.

15:37:54 [AGarrison]

Jan - In WCAG does it say that.

15:38:14 [AGarrison]

David - All of this is under technology supported.

15:38:44 [AGarrison]

Jan - The link is a JavaScript lib that adds touch gestures.

15:39:32 [AGarrison]

Jan - Are we going back to touch gestures are great, but do we need additional support from buttons, etc...

15:40:08 [AGarrison]

David - Touch gestures are here to stay, its just the conflict between the app and the screen-reader

15:40:37 [AGarrison]

David - It's rare that the gestures conflict, and break things.

15:41:34 [AGarrison]

Kathy - Maybe its more to do with conflicting gestures.

15:42:03 [AGarrison]

David - Custom gestures should not conflict with screen-reader gestures.

15:42:36 [AGarrison]

Alan - Everything we can do without AT can be available with AT off.

15:43:02 [AGarrison]

Alan - Everything still needs to be able to work.

15:43:35 [David]

http://davidmacd.com/slides/qc/Mobile-WCAG4FR.pdf

15:44:06 [AGarrison]

Alistair - What about you should not code gestures / touch that conflict with System Assistive Technologies.

15:44:26 [AGarrison]

Alan - We need to make sure everything works when ATs are turned on.

15:45:05 [AGarrison]

Jan - When ATs are turned on etc... it's a huge question. What browser, what AT etc...

15:45:25 [AGarrison]

David - In WCAG, one combination should work.

15:45:57 [AGarrison]

David - WCAG is for creating real world solutions.

15:46:25 [AGarrison]

David - If something didn't work, but it would be coded to spec, it would still be a fail.

15:46:47 [AGarrison]

Jan - I don't really agree. I could code a simple page which would work.

15:47:45 [AGarrison]

David - There is the title attribute question. For years you should not use title, now its accessibility supported.

15:48:01 [AGarrison]

David - Its always been around the end users.

15:48:28 [AGarrison]

David - Do we want to continue with that?

15:49:03 [AGarrison]

David - Do we just want to write the spec. Unfortunately some stuff does not work if you do that?

15:49:22 [AGarrison]

David - Are we in possession of all the facts.

15:50:30 [AGarrison]

David - What we need to do is answer "does it have to be all AT".

15:50:52 [AGarrison]

David - It has to work when AT is switched on.

15:51:36 [AGarrison]

David - It has to work without conflict. We could be talking about API level.

15:56:25 [AGarrison]

David - We say that AT reports to its Accessibility API properly

15:56:43 [AGarrison]

Alistair - There may not be an out and out Accessibility API

15:57:12 [AGarrison]

David - One area of investigation would be can we map it to Accessibility API

15:58:10 [AGarrison]

Action - To examine WCAG for success criterion that require the content to work with the System AT enabled.

15:58:10 [trackbot]

Error finding '-'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/track/users>.

15:58:31 [AGarrison]

Jan - 4.1.2 is the only place that talks about WCAG.

15:58:57 [AGarrison]

David - There is a president - its an SC

15:59:48 [Jan]

"4.1.2 Name, Role, Value: For all user interface components (including but not limited to: form elements, links and components generated by scripts), the name and role can be programmatically determined; states, properties, and values that can be set by the user can be programmatically set; and notification of changes to these items is available to user agents, including assistive technologies. (L

15:59:50 [Jan]

evel A)"

15:59:56 [AGarrison]

Jan - If you are making it available to user agents, you could assume it would work for assistive technology.

16:00:08 [AGarrison]

Kathy - we need to come back to this.

16:00:44 [AGarrison]

Kathy - we need to look at this more closely. There is also a touch event we need to look at - when touch is taken away.

16:01:08 [AGarrison]

Kathy - we need to do a bit more research.

16:01:26 [AGarrison]

David - to come up with a success criteria is difficult.

16:01:50 [David]

scribe: David

16:02:24 [AGarrison]

Do you need me?

16:02:35 [David]

zakim, bye

16:02:35 [Zakim]

leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Kathy, agarrison, jeanne, David_MacDonald, Detlev, marcjohlic, jon_avila, Alan

16:02:35 [Zakim]

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16:02:55 [David]

rrsagent, make log public

16:03:13 [David]

rrsagent, make minutes

16:03:13 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/08-mobile-a11y-minutes.html David

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