See also: IRC log
[These discussions were interspersed among the following topics. I gathered them here for easier reading.]
<r12a> dial in guidance:
<r12a> go to https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m2be0a83f0c7797b80b69ce09c45e0419
<r12a> enter a name for yourself
<r12a> enter an email address
<r12a> click on Join (don't click on 'start your meeting')
<r12a> click on call using computer
<r12a> najib, change your nick maybe?
<r12a> Host key: 277907
<behnam> http://www.w3.org/2002/03/RRSAgent
r12a: Showing the room how to add
items to minutes
... Two suggestions regarding alreq: it's going to be
requirements like any other req documents.
... The document should always be relevant. Need to intercept
with CSS WG. Not in this document; separate docs. We should
keep this document clear.
... Second point; priorities on topics. One way to do that is
looking at what ebook people need. Not sure what they need. We
should check.
... Elongation and justification are particularly
challenging.
<behnam> http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot
shervin: introducing
the meeting
... we had one meeting
already where we just talked briefly about what we're going to
do
... we need to discuss
that again
r12a: introduces self as i18n activity lead at W3C
behnam: i'm with Facebook
mostafa: i'm from Iran, and involved with startups, some background in typography
najib: work at
University of Rabat, in Morocco and manage W3C office in MA
... also in i18n WG at
W3C
shervin: we looked at
the jlreq doc and tried to come up with some topics we can talk
about and get ideas from, while adapting to arabic needs
... the jlreq doc is
very detailed - we may need to start smaller
... please take a
quick look and see if there's anything we need to talk
about
najib: i suggest you
add caligraphy to keywords
... it has a
significant effect on positioning
Najib: Calligraphy to be added as a topic. As a paragraph or section...
since it has importance.
behnam: as richard
mentioned, i think we need to make it clear what things we need
to cover, there is a chance that we may need to make
recommendations for bidi and characters in Unicode
... we had a
discussion about elongation, we may need to consider proposing
algorithms, but i'm not sure how we are going to get there
yet
mostafa: r12a mentioned other layout requirements, what are they
<r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/layout
mostafa: is this list of topics based on some other source - should we research more
<mostafa> Than you r12a
<Najib> s/As a paragraph or section…/In "Characters" or "Paragraphs" section/
shervin: this is based
on the the requirements docs in the above url - used that as a
source of ideas
... tried to translate
the topics to the list we have
... it doesn't mean
that we won't tailor the list, so certainly you can propose
other topics
shervin: wrt bidi, we
may want to summarise the general direction of the bidi
algorithm, but getting into the detail may not be appropriate
for this document
... we can certainly
refer to other dosc on the w3c site
<r12a> http://w3c.github.io/typography/
r12a: Another page is the W3C
typography page as another source
... links to tests, CSS samples. The page is a central
hub.
... We need to do: (1) the typography document gives us ideas
to include alreq (2) as we add topics to alreq we need to add
links to typography page.
... Agrees with Shervin regarding bidi low level details. Alreq
is mostly being about typography. We need to consider what
already exists.
... and we should be aware if we want to duplicate
anything.
<Najib> +1
shervin: glossary of
terms is really useful, and so we should keep that updated as
we generate content
... find arabic and
persian versions of the terms
r12a: Re: Glossary. According to
experience with other TC, very important and can even be the
starting point
... one issue with Chinese TC is vague terms. They are updating
glossary first.
<behnam_> +1
r12a: There are often not terms
for a particular topic. Agrees with glossary work from day one
and keep it updated.
... It might be hard to find Persian, Arabic, and English terms
corresponding.
mostafa: i agree that
it will be hard to find persian and arabic terms, but that will
help us later
... one minor issue:
justification
... seems that the
definition is about who justified, rather than what is
justification itself
... "To adjust the
length of the line so that it is flush left and right on the
measure."
shervin: yeah, this is just placehodler text
behnam: please file a github issue
najib: +1 to r12a
about glossary being a good starting point - we can begin with
more general terms
... we can get them
from existing layout documents
... maybe in each
region we can speak with arabic script experst and learn from
them what is important
shervin: its going to
challenging to find these terms - it took about 20mins using
different sources to find a definition
... there's a
longstanding tradition in both arabic world and Iran, so i
assume that there are terms related to these concepts, but they
may not be online
... they may be in a
book somewhere
... so part of our
work is research for sources for glossary terms
r12a: Azzeddine might be of help
when it comes to glossary work
... Read an article by him regarding elongation which was
different than what people like Tom Milo wrote.
... Invited him to the TC.
shervin: there is a
wide variety of experts talking about arabic script and its
usages
... there are lots of
first-hand and novel experiences because they weren't
documented before
... we may end up
encouraging people to invent stuff to match the needs of the
industry
... eg. date-time
formats don't make sense in some languages, but mobile devices
need that so we had to invent something
... the danger is that
someone invents something and it becomes the defacto approach,
even if not based on strong evidence
r12a: W3C being the place
interested in contributions. Feedback loops are there.
... People review the content and tell us. We need to make sure
to get the message out there.
shervin: any thoughts about recruiting experts?
mostafa: there are
experts in various countries who may be helpful, but not all
have time to join the TF
... or have the
technical knowledge required
... is there a plan to
use these experts
shervin: we have two
levels of contributor (1) editors (2) general public mailing
list, github issues, and other channels
... if the expert has
expertise and layout that is appropriate, we may want to invite
to the group
... some may not be
able, so for those we can take our specific questions to
them
... eg. Tom Milo may
not be able to participate but we can take a question to
him
... there are also the
general mailing lists for arabic and persian users and we may
want to invite feedback on those
najib: We can use experts at least in getting useful feed back from them
<behnam_> ArabEyes http://www.arabeyes.org/
shervin: what we need
right now is probably a few more core members
... as many as
possible
... for that we rely
on our members
... people like
Mostafa and Najib are on the ground and so well placed to
help
najib: arabeyes is good, i didn't know about it before
mostafa: wrt recruitment, i'll look around for people
<scribe> ACTION: Mostafa to reach out to experts in Iran. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html#action02]
shervin: some
pointers, people from tech industry in Iran may be
interested
... Najib and
Azzeddine are from N Africa, do we have anyone from Middle
East
r12a: Was in Oman and doing Unicode training. Some people at the German Univ. might be interested. Richard sends an email to them.
<scribe> ACTION: Richard to send an email to folks at German Univ. in Oman. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html#action03]
behnam: as discussed
in first meeting, we do have a variety of languages in south
asia and se asia who use this script
... they have a
distinct style (writing or layout) - it's important to also
have peole from those regions in early stage
shervin: this is for ?
behnam: Urdu, Persian in India, and others that cross the border
shervin: in the long
term that sounds great - the original focus on the doc is
persian and arabic - it may be too early to branch, but we can
contact people
... Uighur is not in
our purvue, per the charter
r12a: The groups should communicate regarding the shared topics.
<scribe> ACTION: Behnam to research the existing experts for other languages like Urdu. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html#action04]
r12a: People of ilreq might have
the expertise and might have it on their list of topics. But
might not be top of the list for them.
... Stay focused regarding the scope of the document not to be
overwhelmed.
shervin: we just
talked about glossary - i find it useful to maintain a list of
resources
... eg in persian
there is a book called راهنمای آماده ساختن کتاب
... it's a mixture of
a book about books and a book about publishing and
typography
... it might be useful
to pull together a list of these books in persian and
arabic
mostafa: The title means
“The Manual of Making Books”
... it may also be web
sites - we need to just check how reliable and detailed they
are
<scribe> ACTION: Shervin to put together a preliminary list of existing literature. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html#action05]
shervin: i also wanted
to say that almost all large universities and companies have
some kind of style guides
... i checked a couple
of them in arabic speaking world
... we should take
them with caution, but if we put 5 alongside each other we may
find useful common trends
<scribe> ACTION: Shervin and Behnam to have the agenda for next meetings. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html#action06]
r12a: Unrelated topic. Richard is
the host of the meeting. The host has more control over what's
happening in the teleco. The host key was not in the invite. We
can have it there
... and anyone can take control of the meeting and we're sure
that no one is going to abuse that right.
... Host can mute and unmute folks in the teleconf.
... We should check on IRC before unmuting folks for privacy
purposes.
najib: is there a plan for a FTF meeting?
shervin: some people meet at the Unicode conference, but nothing is planned now
najib: Morocco office could host a meeting, if needed
r12a: is not going to be in IUC.
First time since 1995.
... No events to visit Bay Area at the moment.
shervin: please take a
look at the working draft - there were just key words in the
beginning, and i threw some things in off the top of my
head
... some of these are
not necessary ready for development yet
... please take a look
and send us some ideas for expanding the best topic so that we
can start assigning content development actions
mostafa: what is preferred? is it best to send PR for all glossary suggestions or send separately?
shervin: since we have little content at the moment maybe bundle them, but in future when we get into the details then we'll need to separate topics
r12a: Regarding the minutes; someone should go through the draft of the minutes and make sure that they are okay and then send to public.
Shervin: Any document of process of editing the minutes?
r12a: Showing the process of making the minutes from draft to public.
<scribe> ACTION: r12a to check regarding processing of the minutes and get back to the group. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html#action07]
<r12a> meeting adjourned