14:42:27 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #alreq
14:42:27 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-irc
14:42:45 <r12a> the command for that is /invite rrsagent #alreq
14:43:06 <r12a> now whatever we type here is recorded at the above url
14:43:18 <r12a> but also we can use rrsagent to manage minutes
14:43:38 <r12a> Meeting: Alreq telecom
14:43:49 <r12a> Chair: Behnam, Shervin
14:43:53 <Shervin> Shervin has joined #alreq
14:44:01 <Shervin> Hello everybody.
14:44:05 <r12a> hi shervin
14:44:17 <r12a> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:44:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html r12a
14:44:23 <mostafa> Hello, Shervin.
14:44:47 <r12a> rrsagent, make log public
14:45:31 <r12a> Topic: Preliminary playing with IRC
14:45:46 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #alreq
14:46:34 <r12a> zakim, who's here?
14:46:34 <Zakim> Present: (no one)
14:46:36 <Zakim> On IRC I see Shervin, RRSAgent, Behnam, r12a, mostafa
14:46:42 <r12a> present+ richard
14:46:45 <r12a> zakim, who's here?
14:46:45 <Zakim> Present: richard
14:46:48 <Zakim> On IRC I see Shervin, RRSAgent, Behnam, r12a, mostafa
14:47:06 <r12a> present+ Shervin, Behnam, Mostafa
14:47:10 <r12a> zakim, who's here?
14:47:10 <Zakim> Present: richard, Shervin, Behnam, Mostafa
14:47:12 <Zakim> On IRC I see Shervin, RRSAgent, Behnam, r12a, mostafa
14:47:54 <r12a> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:47:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html r12a
14:51:10 <r12a> by the way, i set up the call so that people can dial in 5mins in advance
14:51:31 <Shervin> Great.
14:51:46 <behnam> behnam has joined #alreq
14:52:24 <Najib> Najib has joined #alreq
14:53:30 <Najib> ;-)
14:53:57 <r12a> Behnam, Shervin, i didn't see any agenda topics in the invitation email - i'd like to suggest that we spend a little time at the start acquainting ourselves with the technical support we get in IRC
14:54:01 <r12a> would that be ok?
14:54:32 <Shervin> That sounds good to me as we are going to use these tools going forward.
14:54:43 <r12a> agenda+ Using IRC tools for meetings
14:55:16 <Najib> Najib has left #alreq
14:55:36 <Najib-ma> Najib-ma has joined #alreq
14:57:35 <r12a> dial in guidance:
14:57:44 <r12a> go to https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m2be0a83f0c7797b80b69ce09c45e0419
14:57:53 <r12a> enter a name for yourself
14:57:58 <r12a> enter an email address
14:58:11 <r12a> click on Join (don't click on 'start your meeting')
14:58:55 <r12a> click on call using computer
14:59:17 <Najib-ma> present+ Najib
15:01:03 <r12a> zakim, who's here?
15:01:03 <Zakim> Present: richard, Shervin, Behnam, Mostafa, Najib
15:01:05 <Zakim> On IRC I see Najib-ma, behnam, Zakim, Shervin, RRSAgent, r12a, mostafa
15:01:40 <r12a> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:01:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html r12a
15:01:49 <Najib-ma> Zakim, Najib-ma is Najib
15:01:49 <Zakim> sorry, Najib-ma, I do not recognize a party named 'Najib-ma'
15:02:21 <r12a> najib, change your nick maybe?
15:03:44 <r12a> Host key: 277907
15:04:51 <r12a> Topic: Introductions
15:05:08 <r12a> shervin: introducing the meeting
15:05:29 <r12a> ... we had one meeting already where we just talked briefly about what we're going to do
15:05:36 <r12a> ... we need to discuss that again
15:06:09 <r12a> r12a: introduces self as i18n activity lead at W3C
15:06:27 <r12a> behnam: i'm with Facebook
15:06:53 <r12a> mostafa: i'm from Iran, and involved with startups, some background in typography
15:07:16 <r12a> najib: work at University of Rabat, in Morocco and manage W3C office in MA
15:07:24 <r12a> ... also in i18n WG at W3C
15:07:43 <Shervin> agenda+ Review of existing keyword topics
15:07:52 <r12a> Topic: review of existing keyword topics
15:07:59 <Shervin> http://w3c.github.io/alreq
15:08:43 <r12a> shervin: we looked at the jlreq doc and tried to come up with some topics we can talk about and get ideas from, while adapting to arabic needs
15:09:00 <r12a> ... the jlreq doc is very detailed - we may need to start smaller
15:09:38 <r12a> ... please take a quick look and see if there's anything we need to talk about
15:09:53 <r12a> q+
15:11:24 <behnam> http://www.w3.org/2002/03/RRSAgent
15:12:31 <r12a> q?
15:13:42 <Shervin> q?
15:14:18 <Shervin> ack r12a
15:14:27 <Shervin> q+ r12a
15:15:37 <Najib> q+
15:15:42 <Shervin> r12a: Showing the room how to add items to minutes
15:16:42 <Shervin> r12a: Two suggestions regarding alreq: it's going to be requirements like any other req documents.
15:16:50 <behnam> q?
15:17:40 <Shervin> r12a: The document should always be relevant. Need to intercept with CSS WG. Not in this document; separate docs. We should keep this document clear.
15:19:05 <Shervin> r12a: Second point; priorities on topics. One way to do that is looking at what ebook people need. Not sure what they need. We should check.
15:19:30 <Shervin> r12a: Elongation and justification are particularly challenging.
15:19:42 <behnam> q+
15:20:19 <behnam> http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot
15:20:42 <r12a> q?
15:20:46 <r12a> q-
15:20:54 <mostafa> q+
15:21:09 <r12a> najib: i suggest you add caligraphy to keywords
15:21:23 <r12a> ... it has a significant effect on positioning
15:21:24 <Shervin> Najib: Calligraphy to be added as a topic. As a paragraph or section...
15:21:35 <Shervin> since it has importance.
15:21:38 <Shervin> q?
15:21:43 <Shervin> q-
15:22:01 <Najib> q-
15:22:01 <Shervin> q?
15:22:21 <Shervin> q+
15:22:37 <Shervin> ack behnam
15:22:59 <r12a> behnam: as richard mentioned, i think we need to make it clear what things we need to cover, there is a chance that we may need to make recommendations for bidi and characters in Unicode
15:23:30 <r12a> ... we had a discussion about elongation, we may need to consider proposing algorithms, but i'm not sure how we are going to get there yet
15:23:34 <r12a> q+
15:23:44 <Shervin> ack mostafa
15:23:59 <r12a> mostafa: r12a mentioned other layout requirements, what are they
15:24:07 <Shervin> q?
15:24:18 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/layout
15:24:46 <r12a> mostafa: is this list of topics based on some other source - should we research more
15:24:54 <behnam_> behnam_ has joined #alreq
15:24:55 <mostafa> Than you r12a
15:25:09 <Najib> s/As a paragraph or section…/In "Characters" or "Paragraphs" section/
15:25:27 <r12a> shervin: this is based on the the requirements docs in the above url - used that as a source of ideas
15:25:39 <r12a> ... tried to translate the topics to the list we have
15:26:04 <r12a> ... it doesn't mean that we won't tailor the list, so certainly you can propose other topics
15:26:10 <Shervin> q?
15:26:10 <r12a> q?
15:26:19 <r12a> ack shervin
15:26:52 <r12a> shervin: wrt bidi, we may want to summarise the general direction of the bidi algorithm, but getting into the detail may not be appropriate for this document
15:27:00 <Shervin> ack Shervin
15:27:05 <r12a> ... we can certainly refer to other dosc on the w3c site
15:27:10 <Shervin> ack r12a
15:27:17 <r12a> http://w3c.github.io/typography/
15:27:59 <Shervin> r12a: Another page is the W3C typography page as another source
15:28:27 <Shervin> ...links to tests, CSS samples. The page is a central hub.
15:29:39 <Shervin> ...We need to do: (1) the typography document gives us ideas to include alreq (2) as we add topics to alreq we need to add links to typography page.
15:30:23 <Shervin> r12a: Agrees with Shervin regarding bidi low level details. Alreq is mostly being about typography. We need to consider what already exists.
15:30:38 <Shervin> ... and we should be aware if we want to duplicate anything.
15:30:38 <Shervin> q?
15:30:40 <Najib> +1
15:31:10 <Shervin> agenda?
15:32:15 <Shervin> agenda+ Glossary of terms for the document
15:32:59 <r12a> take up agendum 3
15:33:27 <r12a> shervin: glossary of terms is really useful, and so we should keep that updated as we generate content
15:33:30 <r12a> q+
15:33:34 <mostafa> q+
15:33:45 <Najib> q+
15:33:47 <r12a> ... find arabic and persian versions of the terms
15:33:50 <Shervin> ack r12a
15:34:18 <Shervin> r12a: Re: Glossary. According to experience with other TC, very important and can even be the starting point
15:34:41 <Shervin> ...one issue with Chinese TC is vague terms. They are updating glossary first.
15:35:07 <behnam_> +1
15:35:15 <Shervin> ...There are often not terms for a particular topic. Agrees with glossary work from day one and keep it updated.
15:35:47 <Shervin> ...It might be hard to find Persian, Arabic, and English terms corresponding.
15:36:00 <Shervin> ack mostafa
15:36:08 <Shervin> q+
15:36:14 <r12a> mostafa: i agree that it will be hard to find persian and arabic terms, but that will help us later
15:36:26 <r12a> ... one minor issue: justification
15:36:45 <r12a> ... seems that the definition is about who justified, rather than what is justification itself
15:36:59 <r12a> ... "To adjust the length of the line so that it is flush left and right on the measure."
15:37:17 <r12a> shervin: yeah, this is just placehodler text
15:37:28 <Shervin> q?
15:37:30 <r12a> behnam: please file a github isse
15:37:36 <r12a> s/isse/issue/
15:37:38 <Shervin> ack Najib
15:38:03 <r12a> najib: +1 to r12a about glossary being a good starting point - we can begin with more general terms
15:38:15 <r12a> ... we can get them from existing layout documents
15:38:34 <Shervin> agenda+ Recruiting experts
15:38:42 <behnam_> q+
15:38:47 <Shervin> q?
15:38:49 <r12a> ... maybe in each region we can speak with arabic script experst and learn from them what is importatn
15:39:39 <r12a> shervin: its going to challenging to find these terms - it took about 20mins using different sources to find a definition
15:40:07 <r12a> ... there's a longstanding tradition in both arabic world and Iran, so i assume that there are terms related to these concepts, but they may not be online
15:40:16 <r12a> ... they may be in a book somewhere
15:40:35 <Najib> s/importatn/important/
15:40:36 <r12a> ... so part of our work is research for sources for glossary terms
15:40:39 <r12a> q+_
15:40:39 <Shervin> q?
15:40:45 <r12a> oops
15:40:51 <r12a> q- _
15:40:52 <Shervin> ack Shervin, behnam_
15:40:54 <r12a> q+
15:40:57 <Shervin> q?
15:40:57 <behnam_> q-
15:41:03 <Shervin> ack Shervin
15:41:12 <Shervin> ack r12a
15:41:35 <Shervin> r12a: Ezzadine might be of help when it comes to glossary work
15:42:06 <Shervin> ...Read an article by him regarding elongation which was different than what people like Tom Milo wrote.
15:42:29 <r12a> s/Ezzadine/Azzeddine/
15:42:46 <Shervin> ...Invited him to the TC.
15:42:52 <Shervin> q+ shervin
15:43:00 <Shervin> agenda?
15:43:15 <r12a> take up agendum 4
15:43:19 <Shervin> ack shervin
15:43:44 <r12a> shervin: there is a wide variety of experts talking about arabic script and its usages
15:44:08 <r12a> ... there are lots of first-hand and novel experiences because they weren't documented before
15:44:32 <r12a> ... we may end up encouraging people to invent stuff to match the needs of the industry
15:45:00 <r12a> ... eg. date-time formats don't make sense in some languages, but mobile devices need that so we had to invent something
15:45:40 <r12a> ... the danger is that someone invents something and it becomes the defacto approach, even if not based on strong evidence
15:45:42 <r12a> q+
15:45:50 <Shervin> ack r12a
15:46:27 <Shervin> r12a: W3C being the place interested in contributions. Feedback loops are there.
15:46:50 <Shervin> ...People review the content and tell us. We need to make sure to get the message out there.
15:46:58 <Shervin> agenda?
15:48:13 <r12a> shervin: any thoughts about recruiting experts?
15:48:15 <mostafa> q+
15:48:28 <Shervin> ack @mostafa
15:48:37 <Shervin> q?
15:48:43 <Shervin> ack mostafa
15:48:48 <r12a> mostafa: there are experts in various countries who may be helpful, but not all have time to join the TF
15:48:53 <Shervin> q+
15:49:00 <r12a> ... or have the technical knowledge required
15:49:07 <r12a> ...  is there a plan to use these experts
15:49:33 <r12a> shervin: we have two levels of contributor (1) editors (2) general public mailing list, github issues, and other channels
15:49:53 <r12a> ... if the expert has expertise and layout that is appropriate, we may want to invite to the group
15:50:12 <r12a> ... some may not be able, so for those we can take our specific questions to them
15:50:42 <r12a> ... eg. Tom Milo may not be able to participate but we can take a question to him
15:51:11 <r12a> ... there are also the general mailing lists for arabic and persian users and we may want to invite feedback on those
15:51:11 <Shervin> q?
15:51:17 <Najib> We can use experts at least in getting useful feed back from them
15:51:17 <Shervin> ack Shervin
15:51:19 <behnam_> ArabEyes http://www.arabeyes.org/
15:51:23 <Shervin> q+
15:51:43 <r12a> shervin: what we need right now is probably a few more core members
15:52:05 <r12a> ... as many as possible
15:52:12 <r12a> ... for that we rely on our members
15:52:39 <Shervin> q?
15:52:43 <r12a> ... people like Mostafa and Najib are on the ground and so well placed to help
15:52:44 <mostafa> q+
15:52:45 <Shervin> ack Shervin
15:52:47 <Shervin> agenda?
15:53:17 <r12a> najib: arabeyes is good, i didn't know about it before
15:53:29 <r12a> q?
15:53:40 <Shervin> q?
15:53:46 <Shervin> ack mostafa
15:54:06 <r12a> mostafa: wrt recruitment, i'll look around for people
15:54:22 <mostafa> q-
15:54:25 <r12a> ACTION: Shervin to do something
15:54:51 <behnam_> ACTION- 1
15:55:10 <Shervin> ACTION: Mostafa to reach out to experts in Iran.
15:55:14 <Shervin> q?
15:55:59 <r12a> shervin: some pointers, people from tech industry in Iran may be interested
15:56:10 <Shervin> q?
15:56:28 <r12a> ... Najib and Azzeddine are from N Africa, do we have anyone from Middle East
15:57:11 <Shervin> r12a: Was in Oman and doing Unicode training. Some people at the German Univ. might be interested. Richard sends an email to them.
15:57:16 <behnam_> q+
15:57:43 <Shervin> ACTION: Richard to send an email to folks at German Univ. in Oman.
15:57:46 <Shervin> q?
15:57:53 <Shervin> ack behnam_
15:58:28 <r12a> behnam: as discussed in first meeting, we do have a variety of languages in south asia and se asia who use this script
15:58:58 <Shervin> agenda+ Existing literature and resources
15:59:02 <Shervin> q+
15:59:09 <Shervin> q?
15:59:09 <r12a> ... they have a distinct style (writing or layout) - it's important to also have peole from those regions in early stage
15:59:25 <Shervin> q-
15:59:31 <Shervin> q+
15:59:31 <r12a> q+
15:59:40 <Shervin> ack Shervin
15:59:50 <r12a> shervin: this is for ?
16:00:11 <r12a> behnam: Urdu, Persian in India, and others that cross the border
16:00:44 <r12a> shervin: in the long term that sounds great - the original focus on the doc is persian and arabic - it may be too early to branch, but we can contact people
16:00:50 <Shervin> q?
16:00:57 <Shervin> ack r12a
16:01:10 <r12a> ... Uighur is not in our purvue, per the charter
16:01:54 <Shervin> r12a: The groups should communicate regarding the shared topics.
16:01:58 <Shervin> q?
16:02:59 <Shervin> ACTION: Behnam to research the existing experts for other languages like Urdu.
16:03:46 <Shervin> r12a: People of ilreq might have the expertise and might have it on their list of topics. But might not be top of the list for them.
16:04:16 <Shervin> r12a: Stay focused regarding the scope of the document not to be overwhelmed.
16:04:43 <Shervin> agenda?
16:05:12 <r12a> zakim, take up agendum 5
16:05:12 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Existing literature and resources" taken up [from Shervin]
16:05:26 <r12a> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:05:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html r12a
16:05:51 <r12a> shervin: we just talked about glossary - i find it useful to maintain a list of resources
16:06:04 <r12a> ... eg in persian there is a book called @@
16:06:22 <r12a> ... it's a mixture of a book about books and a book about publishing and typography
16:06:29 <mostafa> s/@@/راهنمای آماده ساختن کتاب/
16:06:42 <r12a> ... it might be useful to pull together a list of these books in persian and arabic
16:07:03 <mostafa> The title means “The Manual of Making Books”
16:07:03 <r12a> ... it may also be web sites - we need to just check how reliable and detailed they are
16:07:05 <Shervin> q?
16:07:38 <Shervin> ACTION: Shervin to put together a preliminary list of existing literature.
16:07:41 <Shervin> q?
16:08:38 <r12a> shervin: i also wanted to say that almost all large universities and companies have some kind of style guides
16:08:44 <Shervin> q?
16:08:56 <r12a> ... i checked a couple of them in arabic speaking world
16:09:16 <Shervin> q?
16:09:18 <r12a> ... we should take them with caution, but if we put 5 alongside each other we may find useful common trends
16:09:31 <r12a> AOB?
16:09:57 <Shervin> r12a: Questions regarding the logistics from anyone on the call?
16:10:23 <Najib> mute when not speaking ...
16:10:31 <Shervin> ... For future meeting, put together an agenda and have it for next meeting.
16:10:50 <Shervin> ACTION: Shervin and Behnam to have the agenda for next meetings.
16:11:48 <Shervin> r12a: Unrelated topic. Richard is the host of the meeting. The host has more control over what's happening in the teleco. The host key was not in the invite. We can have it there
16:12:11 <Najib> q+ to ask is there a F2F planned?
16:12:12 <Shervin> ... and anyone can take control of the meeting and we're sure that no one is going to abuse that right.
16:12:26 <Shervin> q?
16:12:31 <Najib> q-
16:12:57 <Shervin> r12a: Host can mute and unmute folks in the teleconf.
16:13:24 <Shervin> r12a: We should check on IRC before unmuting folks for privacy purposes.
16:13:29 <Shervin> q?
16:13:41 <Shervin> agenda?
16:13:52 <r12a> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:13:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html r12a
16:14:07 <r12a> najib: is there a plan for a FTF meeting?
16:14:28 <r12a> shervin: some people meet at the Unicode conference, but nothing is planned now
16:14:42 <r12a> najib: Morocco office could host a meeting, if needed
16:15:24 <Shervin> r12a: is not going to be in IUC. First time since 1994.
16:15:53 <r12a> s/1994/1995/
16:16:01 <Shervin> r12a: No events to visit Bay Area at the moment.
16:16:47 <r12a> shervin: please take a look at the working draft - there were just key words in the beginning, and i threw some things in off the top of my head
16:17:01 <r12a> ... some of these are not necessary ready for development yet
16:17:30 <Shervin> q?
16:17:40 <r12a> ... please take a look and send us some ideas for expanding the best topic so that we can start assigning content development actions
16:18:05 <r12a> mostafa: what is preferred? is it best to send PR for all glossary suggestions or send separately?
16:18:37 <r12a> shervin: since we have little content at the moment maybe bundle them, but in future when we get into the details then we'll need to separate topics
16:18:44 <Shervin> q?
16:18:56 <r12a> q+
16:19:04 <Shervin> ack r12a
16:19:20 <r12a> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:19:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html r12a
16:21:40 <Shervin> r12a: Regarding the minutes; someone should go through the draft of the minutes and make sure that they are okay and then send to public.
16:22:05 <Shervin> Shervin: Any document of process of editing the minutes?
16:22:56 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html,text
16:23:08 <Shervin> r12a: Showing the process of making the minutes from draft to public.
16:24:11 <Shervin> ACTION: r12a to check regarding processing of the minutes and get back to the group.
16:24:32 <r12a> scribenick shervin
16:24:50 <Shervin> Testing...
16:25:00 <r12a> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:25:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html r12a
16:26:29 <behnam_> ScribeNick: Shervin
16:26:45 <behnam_> RRSAgent: ScribeNick: Shervin
16:26:45 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'ScribeNick: Shervin', behnam_.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:27:18 <Shervin> Testing2...
16:27:21 <r12a> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:27:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html r12a
16:28:22 <r12a> meeting adjourned
16:28:28 <r12a> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:28:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html r12a
16:28:31 <Najib> Najib has left #alreq