See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 08 May 2015
<scribe> Scribe: Sharron
<shawn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/UT_May_2015#General_Plans
Andrew: If not UT, whatis it called?
Shawn: Tool feedback from the
community and thanks Brent for your useful comments. We will
try to get shared understanding on what we are doing.
... questions or clarifications about the plan?
Jon: What information are we hoping to get from this?
Shawn: For each of the three tools, we have listed some objectives for what we want to learn about each one.
Jon: I know this meant to be laid
back and I wonder if we are so relaxed will we be able to
actually get the info we need?
... seems like it is so comforting we may not get much useful
info. A bit more fomality may give us more useful
informaiton.
Shawn: The point was to make it
less restrictive so that people felt free to give broad and
personalized feedback.
... we will take notes and debrief on Wednesday, make
conclusions, and collate and compare them.
Sharron: I thought Jayne's computers were to be used to record.
Shawn: When we considered it, we knew that recording would increase the legal implications.
Jon: But not if you did not take identifying info.
Shawn: Secondly, recording will complicate things and take up time. Since we will have people for only very short time frames is it worth the time (as well as whether anyone will have time to review the recordings)
Jon: If there is a questions of time to review and comment on recordings, I can see the issue.
Sharron: So Jyne does not need to bring her computers?
Shawn: Both of our rooms are Mac rooms so having a PC will be good. As well it would be ideal to use her set up for remote observing.
<kevin> ack
Kevin: When the questions arose about whether Jayne should or should not bring her machines, we decided it would be better to have them and not need them rather than otherwise. We will know more when we are in the rooms.
<yatil> If I were a participant at AccessU I’d prefer quick and simple and mostly informal UT sessions.
<yatil> People are there for the conference mainly.
Sharron: OK that makes sense, I think I will still ask Jayne to bring her computers.
Kevin: Yes, a guerrilla testing approach, quick and simple and pulling people in for a few quick tasks. But that doesn't necessarily mean we would not use Morae
Sharron: But then you are recording right?
Kevin: Not necessarily
Howard: I would be willing to facilitate once I have an idea of what to do, I have no expserince. Do we give an intro to the tool? I don't see any info about that.
<Andrew> FYI Morae - https://www.techsmith.com/morae.html
Shawn: Great question. In general
we try to give them very little info in order to get their
first reaction. Something like "You were given this link to
help you understand WCAG2" Then you model think out loud, ask
them to talk the whole time. Encourage them to ruminate ...hmmm
I wonder what this does, this looks interesting, that's not
what I expected, etc.
... sometimes having two people test at once encourages that
talk out loud behavior.
Shadi: I am looking forward to this and expect to learn a lot. So you start with open ended and then can you hone in on something like "can you do this?" can you find this, etc?
Shawn: Yes you can ask
them...what are you looking for? If you want them to look for a
specific thing, you can give them a task. "If you are looking
for SVG techniques, how would you look for them?"
... how might you look for something related to images?
Shadi: That is an important thing to do, we need to promprt.
Shawn: Also it is hard not to reacte, but you should try not to express surprise or to prompt them about the UI. During the session don't prompt them even when they are stuggling. After the test, you can help them understand what was frustrating them.
Andrew: With the report tool, do you want them to try to set something up? I saw some questions about what tools they would work with...will there be tools available to them?
<Zakim> kevin, you wanted to talk about report tool
<shadi> +1 to kevin
<Andrew> +1 too - just wanted to check
<shawn> +1
Kevin: We don't necessarily want them using other tools, there is a suggestion to use the BAD to get them into the evaluation state of mind. I have also put a full report into the test so they can run with it a little bit and then show them a full report and allow them the opportunity to fiddle around with a full report.
Andrew: That makes sense
Shawn: The time will be an issue.
As Brent asked do we want them to look at all the tools and I
think we will play it by ear based on how much time they will
have available.
... the key is flexibility
Andrew: It might be handy if we have a consistent set of questions for when people get stuck.
Shawn: Yes it would. Several people have put some in the wiki, would anyone want to review them and choose which are the most useful?
Sharron: We rely on you and Kevin to know what is most effective.
Kevin: Would it be useful for me to go through each of the resources and provide that? Prompts for if the participant is not providing feedback or seems stuck.
Shadi: Or if it they are off track.
<jon> +1 to over explainers
Kevin: The role of the facilitator in that difficult situation is a bit challenging.
<yatil> That is why we have those awesome facilitators, Kevin :-)
<Andrew> so - need a bit of a script to follow consistently
Shawn: One of the things we should say at the beginning is at first just play around and at some point I will stop you and give you some specific tasks to do. In that case, they are prepared and it will not be uncomfortable if you redirect them.
<Zakim> EricE, you wanted to ask if we need scribes/note takers or if facilitators are doing that? Will notes be in the wiki/Etherpad?
Eric: How will we collect our findings? Do we need scribes or notetakers? Will we put notes in the wiki?
<Andrew> having a note taker is best if possible
Shawn: We can do what is best in
the moment. Maybe we can try to work it so that there are
always two of us, one to take notes. During the big breaks, we
may need to take our own notes and formalize them later
on.
... we will debrief on Wednesday but it is good to take notes
immediately after the session in a way that is easy to share
with others
Andrew: The pairing of facilitator and note taker is a good idea.
Brent: Maybe the first question
is How much time do you have? That way you can offer them the
proper number and type of tool to provide feedback on.
... another helpful thing to do is when you tell people you
want them to think out loud, give them a quick example. When
looking at everything on the page, vocalize everything you see
and consider. If you model that for them it will help.
Shawn: About which one to do, you
could ask them a bit about their role and then choose a tool
for them.
... any otherquestions or suggestions?
Shawn: Eric has responded to feedback and we wanted to check in to see if there are high priority items that need attention before we ask for communyt feedback next week.
<Howard> looks nice - like the colors for highlighting different areas
<Andrew> I like the pop-up filters :)
Shawn: I added to the UT page, if there are known bugs or functionality that is not yet implemented, let us know so that we can be aware before we work with others.
<Andrew> suggest having an 'X' close option in top right (as well as the obvious button)
Andrew: The flickering in the navigation indicator is not as annoying but it expands and collapses as you scroll through quickly.
<Zakim> EricE, you wanted to say (at the very end) that there a a lot of things to do during my flight ;-)
Andrew: the left hand navigation overlaps the filter box.
<yatil> ^^^qrbug
<shawn> +1 to Brent that filtered out should be made more clear
<yatil> They are filtered out.
<Howard> +1
<Andrew> yes - make it clear they are excluded
Brent: When I select filters and configure them, the box says "Filtered items" and lists the things that have been filtered out (I assume). But that is not clear. I think that needs to be reworded to make it clear whether it has been filtered in or out? Giving it to someone else, they would not know which it was.
<jon> I had that problem in FF. Refresh fixed it.
Howard: When I went into configure the filters, first I have a hard time getting out of it and once back to the main screen, it seems all greyed out and I am uncertain what is the status.
Shawn: As you are getting the feedback, be aware and help them understand this is a rough prototype and that bad behaviors are somewhat expected (and should be recorded)
Jon: Is it OK if I say that I
like the last version better?
... I had a hard time with the configure filters, text is
really far too long, it is hard to go to the next line. The
width of the text itslef is too long.
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say (at end) one thing :-)
Shawn: I had the same first reaction,Jon.
Jon: That's great to hear.
<Andrew> filter pop-up make the selection easier as better layed out for me
Shawn: Playing with it more this
morning, I understand the use case for having the filter in a
pop-up although I think the collapsible windo is the same. I
think the left nav now needs a heading to separate it from the
Search.
... the big thing to me is havng the "Show Techniques" as this
stark notice that goes all the way acrosee. I personally would
like that to be not so stark and not to go across the entire
width.
Jon: What is the 0/0 with the arrows? I don't have any understanding of that.
Eric: Search results
Shawn: Maybe it should not be visible until a search is made
Jon: Oh yeh, it is awesome, great!
<yatil> ^^^qrbug
Brent: Maybe if it was made a bit taller, it will be more readable. The area needs to be uncluttered.
<Brent> Just looked at the tool in firefox. the whole things works better in firefox over Chrome
<shawn> [ missing Tutorials links ?]
Shadi: Thanks Jon, you raised some really good points. I am quite happy to hear these comments, giving direction for the updates. We are starting to get into the visual design aspects. Now I am concerned because we are right on top of AccessU so to manage our community interaction there, what do we need to do?
<yatil> Was convinced by Shadi that we don’t want to have tutorials links at the current form and need to find out how to integrate them.
Shadi: can we focus the discussion on what we need for the feedback sessions rather than visual design issues.
<shawn> +1 to Sharron that some of the visual design issues will impact testing
<Zakim> jon, you wanted to speak about design issues
<jon> +1 to Shawn's +1 to Sharron that some of the visual design issues will impact testing
Jon: It can be some of these distracting things where they can't get the visual aspects that makes an interface unusable to people.
<Andrew> I've observed overlap in the techniques text too, e.g. for SC 1.4.3 techniques (in Chrome)
Eric: I am aware of most of the problems like the overlap, and have no other specific questions for this group.
<paulschantz> design nit-pick: filter list covers the active in-page anchor text
Shawn: For me, the Show techniques in stark letters going across the whole width sucks too much attention and should be addressed before the feedback sessions
Andrew: Did you find it too bright?
Shawn: yes it sucks my attention
and I can look at nothing else
... and part of the problem is that it goes acrosss the entire
width.
<Andrew> for me it was the brightness rather than the width
Howard: It does draw your attention too much, I think a lighter shade might help. It is good to distinguish and yes, it covers the whole width in Chrome as well
Jon: Is there a palette for this?
<Andrew> now the option disappears being ordinary text :(
<yatil> Yup, andrew, will go and search better color options later.
Jon: I find that white space makes the page bigger and improves readability
Eric: I agree that the color should not draw too much attention and would like to focus on content now.
Jon: Sure, I am just trying to think of ways I can contribute
Eric: Yes if you have ideas send them to me in email
Shadi: You mentioned earlier the
link tot eh tutorials. Eric and I discussed linking the
tutorials from the SCs. The problem is that there is not always
a direct mapping between them 1.3.1 for example would have all
of the Tutorials.
... since Undertanding is more context based, it makes sense to
link there. But I am not sure how well matched the Tutorials
are. We should handle the two (Understanding and Tutorials)
differently. What do people think?
Sharron: What is the question before the feedback session?
Shadi: Where is the proper link to the tutorials
Andrew: One suggestion is that
the Tutorials are offered as one of the options when you expand
the techniques. You can jump to the Tutorial as an
option.
... I would only link them if there is a clear correlation
(local anchor) within the Tutorial
Shadi: Inside the Techniques?
Andrew: Yes
Shadi: But will people find them there?
Andrew: dunno, it was a suggestion that occured to me.
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say minor thing - separate between techniques and next SC and to reply to Andrew
Shadi: Who are the people coming to the QuickRef who will benefit for the Tutorials and how do we make them most findable.
Shawn: Another thought is that
the Tutorials are great and it would be helpful to get people
to them quickly.
... if you had the SC first, then the link to Tutorials, and
then underneath that is show techniques.
<Zakim> Andrew, you wanted to say not always a tute
Andrew: Would it look odd however if Tutorials are only provided on a quarter or so of the SCs? and would you link to the opening of the Tutorial or the local relevant anchor?
Brent: Link to the relevant
sub-page or people will be frustrated.
... currently we have the SC, the button for the pop-up to Show
Techniaues. The Tutorial is important. Could we have two linked
chained icons, one to the Understanding and one to the Tutorial
(side by side) that take you outside the tool. Then the
Techniques which keeps you in the tool.
... arrow for the pop-up let's you know you will expand and
stay within the tool
Shadi: Some will have multiple relevant tutorial links
Shawn: We need data on how many would do that before we can make a decision.
<shawn> wai-eo-editors@w3.org
<Brent> Again, I would like to say Outstanding Work Eric. It is enjoyable to see the progress each week.
Shawn: Send feedback via the list
even if you send them to Eric
... any other closing comments on this? Thanks Eric, very
exciting!
<shawn> http://w3c.github.io/wai-dynamic-planning/option3/
Shawn: Please change the title of
the page. For now the prototype has implemented the navigatin
that we looked at before within the WAI wrapper.
... any questions or comments?
<Andrew> I like today's layout Kevin
<shawn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Quick_Start_Guides/Structure_and_Content#Examples_of_level_of_info
Shawn: Let's talk about the level of info
<Howard> Kevin, I like the layout also
Shawn: A big question from last
week was the level of info. We have modeled three options for
discussion.
... we talked about the idea of having a short phrase a couple
of sentences, a couple of links, maybe an example for some of
them
Sharron: No constraint about fitting onto a card for each one?
Shawn: not at this time. I am insterested in first reaction to size and level of info
Andrew: If we are going to have as many tips as we have currently listed, this will be a very long page. We need some form of navigation or skimmability to make the actually "Quikc"
Shawn: What about expand collapse?
Andrew: I prefer the ones with one sentence (rather than several lines).
Shawn: What about the designer Tip, the code sampl..is it useful?
Howard: I like the specific of it. I guess you could make it something that would open withn an accordian. I like the specifics, esp for a developer.
Shadi: I think this is good progress from lst week. It is a tip, exactly what is needed. To your question Shawn, I like the example, it is short, tight and really clear. Several may not be so easy.
<Andrew> could the e.g. be ust on one line - maybe [<label for="username"> with <input id="username" type="text">]
Shadi: I was wondering if there
should be a section on requirement that links to the SC. Should
Understanding always be linked first becasue it is something we
will always have? Not sure about that, but that's first
reaction.
... what do people think about a link to the SC where there is
one?
Andrew: Where would you link?
Shadi: To the Quick Ref
<yatil> If the link is not too prominent it could be useful. Don’t overwhelm people.
Andrew: It would make sense I think because we reference it in the Understanding
Shawn: We should not worry about consistency here as much as putting the most useful link first.
Shadi: What do you think about a link to the WCAG requirement within the QuickRef?
Shawn: I am not sure you want that in a separate section, but maybe another link within the Learn More section. My reaction, not a strong feeling.
<Andrew> +1 to shawn (not a separate section)
Shawn: it ould be good to make the link more clear
Andrew: The advantage to the QuickRef is that it links you through to the Technique
<Andrew> quickref -also links to understanding; don't need both
Shadi: One thing is to link to the QuickRef as the starting place and will recognize the links to the others from there. This is a new resource for many
<kevin> +1 to Andrew
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say this is for newbies -- linking to quickref good!
Andrew: I don't think we need to link to both the QuickRef and the Understanding. Two links to very similar info
Shawn: Yes, it seems much more
importantto me to link to the QuickRef and not the
Understanding docs.
... Kevin anything more for now?
Kevin: Not for the moment.
Shawn: Anything else from
anyone?
... thanks to all who have provided feedback. For the next
couple of weeks, the wiki is open, feel free to spend more
time. More specific feedback is welcome.
Brent: What is the F2F schedule?
<shawn> EOWG meeting page https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/EOWG_F2F_May_2015
<Andrew> have a good AccessU those going
trackbot, end meeting
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