12:20:11 RRSAgent has joined #eo 12:20:11 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/05/08-eo-irc 12:20:13 RRSAgent, make logs world 12:20:13 Zakim has joined #eo 12:20:15 Zakim, this will be 3694 12:20:15 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_EOWG()8:30AM scheduled to start in 10 minutes 12:20:16 Meeting: Education and Outreach Working Group Teleconference 12:20:16 Date: 08 May 2015 12:22:53 Chair: Shawn 12:23:23 Scribe: Sharron 12:23:57 Regrets: Sylvie, Jon, Eric, Shadi, Melody, Lydia, AnnaBelle 12:26:10 WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has now started 12:26:17 +Brent 12:26:49 +Howard 12:27:06 shadi has joined #eo 12:27:14 +Shawn 12:27:42 +kevin 12:27:54 Andrew has joined #eo 12:27:55 Howard has joined #eo 12:29:35 +[IPcaller] 12:29:39 zakim, ipcaller is me 12:29:39 +shadi; got it 12:31:27 zakim, call EricE-Skype 12:31:27 ok, yatil; the call is being made 12:31:28 +EricE 12:31:41 +Sharron 12:31:45 zakim, nick yatil is EricE 12:31:45 ok, yatil, I now associate you with EricE 12:31:47 zakim, mute me 12:31:47 EricE should now be muted 12:31:56 paulschantz has joined #eo 12:32:10 +Andrew 12:32:20 +PaulSchantz 12:33:53 +jon 12:34:01 jon has joined #eo 12:36:49 Topic: Usability testing at AccessU 12:36:52 https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/UT_May_2015#General_Plans 12:37:31 Andrew: What is it called? 12:38:04 Shawn: Tool feedback from the community and thanks Brent for your useful comments. We will try to get shared understanding on what we are doing. 12:38:07 s/What /If not UT, what 12:39:35 ..questions or clarifications about the plan? 12:39:58 Jon: What information are we hoping to get from this? 12:40:25 Shawn: For each of the three tools, we have listed some objectives for what we want to learn about each one. 12:41:16 Jon: I know this meant to be laid back and I wonder if we are so relaxed will we be able to actually get the info we need? 12:41:58 ...seems like it is so comforting we may not get much useful info. A bit more fomality may give us more useful informaiton. 12:42:40 Shawn: The point was to make it less restrictive so that people felt free to give broad and personalized feedback. 12:43:18 ...we will take notes and debrief on Wednesday, make conclusions, and collate and compare them. 12:44:06 Sharron: I thought Jayne's computers were to be used to record. 12:44:44 Shawn: When we considered it, we knew that recording would increase the legal implications. 12:44:57 Jon: But not if you did not take identifying info. 12:46:20 Shawn: Secondly, recording will complicate things and take up time. Since we will have people for only very short time frames is it worth the time (as well as whether anyone will have time to review the recordings) 12:47:07 Jon: If there is a questions of time to review and comment on recordings, I can see the issue. 12:47:35 Zakim, who is making music? 12:47:35 I don't understand your question, yatil. 12:47:50 q+ 12:48:22 Sharron: So Jyne does not need to bring her computers? 12:48:55 Shawn: Both of our rooms are Mac rooms so having a PC will be good. As well it would be ideal to use her set up for remote observing. 12:48:56 ack 12:48:59 ack me 12:49:53 Kevin: When the questions arose about whether Jayne should or should not bring her machines, we decided it would be better to have them and not need them rather than otherwise. We will know more when we are in the rooms. 12:50:35 If I were a participant at AccessU I’d prefer quick and simple and mostly informal sessions. 12:50:45 s/sessions/UT sessions/ 12:51:07 People are there for the conference mainly. 12:51:27 Sharron: OK that makes sense, I think I will still ask Jayne to bring her computers. 12:52:21 Kevin: Yes, a guerrilla testing approach, quick and simple and pulling people in for a few quick tasks. But that doesn't necessarily mean we would not use Moray 12:52:38 Sharron: But then you are recording right? 12:52:52 s/Moray/Morae 12:53:04 Kevin: Not necessisarily 12:53:44 Howard: I would be willing to facilitate once I have an idea of what to do, I have no expserince. Do we give an intro to the tool? I don't see nay info about that. 12:54:15 FYI Morae - https://www.techsmith.com/morae.html 12:55:02 q+ 12:55:13 Shawn: Great question. In general we try to give them very little info in order to get their first reaction. Something like "You were given this link to help you understand WCAG2" Then you model think out loud, ask them to talk the whole time. Encourage them to ruminate ...hmmm I wonder what this does, this looks interesting, that's not what I expected, etc. 12:55:17 s/nay info/any info 12:55:36 ...sometimes having two people test at once encourages that talk out loud behavior. 12:55:56 s/necessisarily/necessarily 12:56:24 Shadi: I am looking forward to this and expect to learn a lot. So you start with open ended and then can you hone in on something like "can you do this?" can you find this, etc? 12:57:15 Shawn: Yes you can ask them...what are you looking for? If you want them to look for a specific thing, you can give them a task. "If you are looking for SVG techniques, how would you look for them?" 12:57:38 ...how might you look for something related to images? 12:57:59 Shadi: That is an important thing to do, we need to promprt. 12:58:07 q- 12:59:25 Shawn: Also it is hard not to reacte, but you should try not to express surprise or to prompt them about the UI. During the session don't prompt them even when they are stuggling. After the test, you can help them understand what was frustrating them. 12:59:37 q+ to talk about report tool 13:00:07 Andrew: With the report tool, do you want them to try to set something up? I saw some questions about what tools they would work with...will there be tools available to them? 13:00:08 ack me 13:00:08 kevin, you wanted to talk about report tool 13:00:28 +1 to kevin 13:01:03 +1 too - just wanted to check 13:01:47 +1 13:01:49 Kevin: We don't necessarily want them using other tools, there is a suggestion to use the BAD to get them into the evaluation state of mind. I have also put a full report into the test so they can run with it a little bit and then show them a full report and allow them the opportunity to fiddle around with a full report. 13:02:04 Andrew: That makes sense 13:03:08 Shawn: The time will be an issue. As Brent asked do we want them to look at all the tools and I think we will play it by ear based on how much time they will have available. 13:03:16 ...the key is flexibility 13:04:01 Andrew: It might be handy if we have a consistent set of questions for when people get stuck. 13:05:20 Shawn: Yes it would. Several people have put some in the wiki, would anyone want to review them and choose which are the most useful? 13:05:39 Sharron: We rely on you and Kevin to know what is most effective. 13:05:52 q+ 13:06:13 ack me 13:06:24 q+ to ask if we need scribes/note takers or if facilitators are doing that? Will notes be in the wiki/Etherpad? 13:07:04 Kevin: Would it be useful for me to go through each of the resources and provide that? Prompts for if the participant is not providing feedback or seems stuck. 13:07:22 Shadi: Or if it they are off track. 13:07:23 +1 to over explainers 13:07:45 Kevin: The role of the facilitator in that difficult situation is a bit challenging. 13:08:08 That is why we have those awesome facilitators, Kevin :-) 13:08:51 so - need a bit of a script to follow consistently 13:08:52 Shawn: One of the things we should say at the beginning is at first just paly around and at some point I will stop you and give you some specific tasks to do. In that case, they are prepared and it will not be uncomfortable if you redirect them. 13:09:04 ack me 13:09:05 EricE, you wanted to ask if we need scribes/note takers or if facilitators are doing that? Will notes be in the wiki/Etherpad? 13:09:19 s/paly/play 13:09:47 Eric: How will we collect our findings? Do we need scribes or notetakers? Will we put notes in the wiki? 13:10:39 having a note taker is best if possible 13:10:53 Shawn: We can do what is best in the moment. Maybe we can try to work it so that there are always two of us, one to take notes. During the big breaks, we may need to take our own notes and formalize them later on. 13:10:55 q+ 13:11:25 zakim, mute me 13:11:25 EricE should now be muted 13:11:29 ...we will debrief on Wednesday but it is good to take notes immediately after the session in a way that is easy to share with others 13:11:36 ack b 13:11:49 Andrew: The pairing of facilitator and note taker is a good idea. 13:12:37 Brent: Maybe the first question is How much time do you have? That way you can offer them the proper number and type of tool to provide feedback on. 13:14:20 ...another helpful thing to do is when you tell people you want them to think out loud, give them a quick example. When looking at everything on the page, vocalize everything you see and consider. If you model that for them it will help. 13:15:00 Shawn: About which one to do, you could ask them a bit about their role and then choose a tool for them. 13:15:11 ...anyother questions or suggestions? 13:16:28 s/anyother /any other 13:21:49 Topic: QuickRef redesign 13:22:03 http://w3c.github.io/wai-wcag-quickref/?hide=filters&hide=overview&filter-tech=sl&filter-tech=pdf&filter-tech=flash&filter-tech=smil 13:23:16 q+ to say (at end) one thing :-) 13:23:30 Shawn: Eric has responded to feedback and we wanted to check in to see if there are high priority items that need attention before we ask for communyt feedback next week. 13:23:41 q+ to say (at the very end) that there a a lot of things to do during my flight ;-) 13:23:42 looks nice - like the colors for highlighting different areas 13:24:21 I like the pop-up filters :) 13:24:56 Shawn: I added to the UT page, if there are known bugs or functionality that is not yet implemented, let us know so that we can be aware before we work with others. 13:25:04 suggest having an 'X' close option in top right (as well as the obvious button) 13:26:06 Andrew: The flickering in the navigation indicator is not as annoying but it expands and collapses as you scroll through quickly. 13:26:17 q+ about filtered items 13:26:33 ack me 13:26:34 EricE, you wanted to say (at the very end) that there a a lot of things to do during my flight ;-) 13:26:48 ack brent 13:27:04 zakim, mute me 13:27:04 EricE should now be muted 13:27:26 Andrew: the left hand navigation overlaps the filter box. 13:27:41 ^^^qrbug 13:28:29 +1 to Brent that filtered out should be made more clear 13:28:37 They are filtered out. 13:28:42 +1 13:29:27 yes - make it clear they are excluded 13:29:31 ack me 13:29:35 Brent: When I select filters and configure them, the box says "Filtered items" and lists the things that have been filtered out (I assume). But that is not clear. I think that needs to be reworded to make it clear whether it has been filtered in or out? Giving it to someone else, they would not know which it was. 13:29:37 q? 13:29:50 zakim, mute me 13:29:50 EricE should now be muted 13:30:36 I had that problem in FF. Refresh fixed it. 13:30:41 Howard: When I went into configure the filters, first I have a hard time getting out of it and once back to the main screen, it seems all greyed out and I am uncertain what is the status. 13:31:07 q+ 13:31:19 ack j 13:31:34 Shawn: As you are getting the feedback, be aware and help them understand this is a rough prototype and that bad behaviors are somewhat expected (and should be recorded) 13:31:55 Jon: Is it OK if I say that I like it better than the last version? 13:33:02 ...I had a hard time with the configure filters, text is really far too long, it is hard to go to the next line. The width of the text itslef is too long. 13:35:07 ack me 13:35:07 shawn, you wanted to say (at end) one thing :-) 13:35:12 q+ 13:35:50 Shawn: I had the same first reaction,Jon. 13:36:03 Jon: That's great to hear. 13:37:25 filter pop-up make the selection easier as better layed out for me 13:37:37 Shawn: Playing with it more this morning, I understand the use case for having the filter in a pop-up although I think the collapsible windo is the same. I think the left nav now needs a heading to separate it from the Search. 13:38:27 ...the big thing to me is havng the "Show Techniques" as this stark notice that goes all the way acrosee. I personally would like that to be not so stark and not to go across the entire width. 13:38:37 ack me 13:38:53 Jon: What is the 00 with the arrows? I don't have any understanding of that. 13:39:03 Eric: Search results 13:39:15 s|00|0/0 13:39:16 Shawn: Maybe it should not be visible until a search is made 13:39:24 zakim, mute me 13:39:24 EricE should now be muted 13:39:27 q? 13:39:28 Jon: Oh yeh, it is awesome, great! 13:39:28 ^^^qrbug 13:39:45 s/Is it OK if I say that I like it better than the last version?/Is it OK if I say that I like the last version better? 13:40:36 ack me 13:40:46 Brent: Maybe if it was made a bit taller, it will be more readable. The area needs to be uncluttered. 13:41:03 ack s 13:41:05 zakim, mute me 13:41:06 EricE should now be muted 13:41:53 Just looked at the tool in firefox. the whole things works better in firefox over Chrome 13:41:58 [ missing Tutorials links ?] 13:42:26 Shadi: Thanks Jon, you raised some really good points. I am quite happy to hear these comments, giving direction for the updates. We are starting to get into the visual design aspects. Now I am concerned because we are right on top of AccessU so to manage our community interaction there, what do we need to do? 13:42:26 Was convinced by Shadi that we don’t want to have tutorials links… 13:43:01 s/links…/links at the current form and need to find out how to integrate them./ 13:43:06 q+ to speak about design issues 13:43:09 ...can we focus the discussion on what we need for the feedback sessions rather than visual design issues. 13:43:33 +1 to Sharron that some of the visual design issues will impact testing 13:43:59 ack jon 13:43:59 jon, you wanted to speak about design issues 13:44:43 +1 to Shawn's +1 to Sharron that some of the visual design issues will impact testing 13:46:05 Jon: It can be some of these distracting things where they can't get the visual aspects that makes an interface unusable to people. 13:46:19 I've observed overlap in the techniques text too (in Chrome) 13:46:27 ack me 13:46:52 q+ 13:47:13 Eric: I am aware of most of the problems like the overlap, and have no other specific questions for this group. 13:47:22 ack me 13:47:25 zakim, mute me 13:47:25 EricE should now be muted 13:47:28 s/text too/text too, e.g. for SC 1.4.3 techniques 13:47:42 q+ 13:47:57 design nit-pick: filter list covers the active in-page anchor text 13:47:58 Shawn: For me, the Show techniques in stark letters going across the whole width sucks too much attention and should be addressed before the feedback sessions 13:48:09 Andrew: Did you find it too bright? 13:48:22 Shawn: yes it sucks my attention and I can look at nothing else 13:48:40 ...and part of the problem is that it goes acrosss the entire width. 13:48:53 for me it was the brightness rather than the width 13:49:17 Howard: It does draw your attention too much, I think a lighter shade might help. It is good to distinguish and yes, it covers the whole width in Chrome as well 13:49:37 Jon: Is there a palette for this? 13:50:07 now the option disappears being ordinary text :( 13:50:28 Yup, andrew, will go and search better color options later. 13:50:50 Jon: I find that white space makes the page bigger and improves readability 13:51:03 q+ to say minor thing - separate between techniques and next SC 13:51:08 ack me 13:52:38 Eric: I agree that the color should not draw too much attention and would like to focus on content now. 13:52:52 Jon: Sure, I am just trying to think of ways I can contribute 13:53:05 zakim, mute me 13:53:05 EricE should now be muted 13:53:14 Eric: Yes if you have ideas send them to me in email 13:54:52 Zakim, mute me 13:54:52 jon should now be muted 13:55:15 ack shadi 13:56:25 Shadi: You mentioned earlier the link tot eh tutorials. Eric and I discussed linking the tutorials from the SCs. The problem is that there is not always a direct mapping between them 1.3.1 for example would have all of the Tutorials. 13:57:36 ...since Undertanding is more context based, it makes sense to link there. But I am not sure how well matched the Tutorials are. We should handle the two (Understanding and Tutorials) differently. What do people think? 13:57:47 -jon 13:58:23 Sharron: What is the question before the feedback session? 13:58:29 +jon 13:58:34 Shadi: Where is the proper link to the tutorials 13:59:17 Andrew: One suggestion is that the Tutorials are offered as one of the options when you expand the techniques. You can jump to the Tutorial as an option. 14:00:02 ...I would only link them if there is a clear correlation (local anchor) within the Tutorial 14:00:15 Shadi: Inside the Techniques? 14:00:23 Andrew: Yes 14:00:33 Shadi: But will people find them there? 14:00:45 Andrew: dunno, it was a suggestion that occured to me. 14:00:45 q+ to reply to Andrew 14:01:03 ack me 14:01:03 shawn, you wanted to say minor thing - separate between techniques and next SC and to reply to Andrew 14:01:19 Shadi: Who are the people coming to the QuickRef who will benefit for the Tutorials and how do we make them most findable. 14:02:01 Shawn: Another thought is that the Tutorials are great and it would be helpful to get people to them quickly. 14:02:38 ...if you had the SC first, then the link to Tutorials, and then underneath that is show techniques. 14:03:06 q+ to say not always a tute 14:03:32 ack a 14:03:32 Andrew, you wanted to say not always a tute 14:03:52 q+ 14:04:15 ack b 14:04:29 Andrew: Would it look odd however if Tutorials are only provided on a quarter or so of the SCs? and would you link to the opening of the Tutorial or the local relevant anchor? 14:04:42 Brent: Link to the rlelvant part or people will be frustrated. 14:05:03 s/rlelvant part/relevant page 14:06:27 s/relevant page/relevant sub-page 14:06:56 ...currently we have the SC, the button for the pop-up to Show Techniaues. The Tutorial is important. Could we have two linked chained icons, one to the Understanding and one to the Tutorial (side by side) that take you outside the tool. Then the Techniques which keeps you in the tool. 14:07:51 ...arrow for the pop-up let's you know you will expand and stay within the tool 14:09:06 Shadi: Some will have multiple relevant tutorial links 14:09:21 Shawn: We need data on how many would do that before we can make a decision. 14:09:40 wai-eo-editors@w3.org 14:09:56 Again, I would like to say Outstanding Work Eric. It is enjoyable to see the progress each week. 14:10:01 Shawn: Send feedback via the list even if you send them to Eric 14:10:51 Shawn: any other closing comments on this? Thanks Eric, very exciting! 14:11:07 Topic: Web Accessibility Road Map 14:11:10 http://w3c.github.io/wai-dynamic-planning/option3/ 14:11:51 Shawn: Please change the title of the page. For now the prototype has implemented the navigatin that we looked at before within the WAI wrapper. 14:12:09 ...any questions or comments? 14:12:31 I like today's layout Kevin 14:12:34 Topic: Quick Start Guides 14:12:36 https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Quick_Start_Guides/Structure_and_Content#Examples_of_level_of_info 14:12:51 Shawn: Let's talk about the level of info 14:13:00 Kevin, I like the layout also 14:13:31 -PaulSchantz 14:13:37 Shawn: A big question from last week was the level of info. We have modeled three options for discussion. 14:14:50 ...we talked about the idea of having a short phrase a couple of sentences, a couple of links, maybe an example for some of them 14:16:14 Sharron: No constraint about fitting onto a card for each one? 14:16:33 Shawn: not at this time. I am insterested in first reaction to size and level of info 14:17:35 Andrew: If we are going to have as many tips as we have currently listed, this will be a very long page. We need some form of navigation or skimmability to make the actually "Quikc" 14:17:51 Shawn: What about expand collapse? 14:17:55 q+ 14:18:07 Andrew: I prefer the ones with one section. 14:18:16 zakim, who is on the phone? 14:18:16 On the phone I see Brent, Howard, Shawn, kevin, shadi, EricE (muted), Sharron, Andrew, jon 14:18:24 Shawn: What about the designer Tip, the code sampl..is it useful? 14:18:53 s/one section/one sentence (rather than several lines) 14:19:08 ack sha 14:19:09 Howard: I like the specific of it. I guess you could make it something that would open withn an accordian. I like the specifics, esp for a developer. 14:20:02 Shadi: I think this is good progress from lst week. It is a tip, exactly what is needed. To your question Shawn, I like the example, it is short, tight and really clear. Several may not be so easy. 14:21:02 could the e.g. be ust on one line - maybe [