See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 09 April 2015
<Detlev> Getting passcode is not valid again
<Detlev> 3rd dial-in attempt - putting in Code: 6283 and getting "This passvode is not valid"
<jeanne> http://www.w3.org/2015/07/zakim.html
<Detlev> tried again, same result...
<Detlev> I give up, I think...
<Detlev> is there another pass code whIch might do the trick, perhaps?
<Kathy> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/66524/20150330_survey/results#xq4
<scribe> scribe: jon_avila
kw: 3.4 device manipulation
gestures - 2 techniques -- don't rely solely on gestures, allow
use of hardware buttons, etc.
... comment from Jan that button are rare -- we do have that in
note. Should we not have a technique for this or is it lower
priority?
<Detlev> THANKS
jan: start by saying if the device has hardware buttons....
kw: agree to that
... David said we might need to rename technique to make it
more clear. We can look at the later when we right -- KW will
make note.
detlev: comment on when device
buttons can be undone -- such as undo features.
... Say if you shake a device to start reading -- is there a
way to stop it -- more of theoretical at this point.
kw: Any other thoughts on that?
Mike: Don't know if that falls differently categories then what we already have. Perhaps something related to instructions and user not being aware of that feature is available.
kw: keep that as usability for
now. Let's move on to next one.
... 3.5 placing buttons where they are easy to access. One we
have now correlates so they can be reached with one hand.
jan: Don't want to say just place buttons in a certain way because there is no standard on that.
Kw: principle of what we are saying is good but the technique hasn't been defined.
detlev: ability to shift things into place is something to think about
awk: ability to test is issue -- iPhone 6 feature does bring things down -- but other devices don't have that.
kw: Some people may hold device differently or have it mounted.
awk: Can the developer stop an OS feature -- that might be something.
jan: Samsung Note has similar feature
detlev: What about placing
buttons on edge where user may grip phone?
... not easy to accidently press something
MikeS: iPad is mobile but not really usable with one hand while you are holding it. Are we too focused on phone.
kw: need to consider all of it.
MikeS: Force reset and screen shot may require two hands.
kw: gesture may be remappable
jan: touching and swiping from side of screen may also be issue for people with dexterity challenges
kw: If we had a technique -- what would it say?
marc: Would this only apply to gesture that are important or that don't have alternatives?
detlev: Seems that it would only be advisory -- since writing a failure technique would be difficult.
jan: commands need simple gestures such as button rather than requiring complex gestures to perform actions
detlev: when does a gesture
become complex?
... some gestures with talkback require two fingers to moved at
the same time and are very complex in the calendar.
<Jan> Perhaps: (Advisory) Provide simple gestures for controlling common functions.
mikeS: Principle that was implemented in iPhone common features should have the simplest gestures
<Kathy> - Providing simple gestures for common functions
detlev: Zoom is common but you don't want it to be confused with other gestures so that is why it has a complex gesture.
jan: That is an OS level gestures -- we are talking about what developers of app do. Like the simple idea for common gestures
mikeS: Scroll page affect is to provide continuous scrolling
jan: important use case for scrolling on the fly -- but other things such as menu on the fly don't make as much sense
kw: Alan had commented that vertical scrolling is issue.
jan: may want to have an indicator to let people know there is more to come
kw: Detlev do you want to talk about hover and focus and selection with touch long states?
detlev: We covered that under 3.1 keyboard
marc: When you have random icons in application -- label may be read with screen reader but there is no way for non AT user to know what it is. Some apps have a long press that allow you to find out more information about what the icon does. A way to identify controls and icons by long pressing. May fall under SC 1.1.1. alt text for sighted user.
mikeS: long press is good example but not prescriptive as a technique as it is used by other things
kp: New long press techniques with Apple watch too.
awk: Marc when do you see this coming up?
marc: Example would be gmail -- as a new user -- not sure what control do what. Some controls do tell you want the icon does.
ja: MObile devices don't have option to display alt text instead of image. Can be issue for low vision users with small differences in images.
awk: similar to what is being discussed in cognitive TF. Something that fall under OS or browser and other situations when developer must address it.
kw: Some apps have help mode that comes up and helps users learn what things are.
kp: procedure to turn these into proposals
<Kim> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Main_Page#Current_Work
kp: under WCAG techniques are new
techniques repository and instructions for writing new
techniques in Github
... Jeanne will setup file already in github. Just replace text
in ALL CAPS.
<jeanne> JS: The techniques previously identified are there. M001-M021.
kw: we have been trying to come up with key techniques that we should focus on. We will link to those in note. I will create a wiki page for each of the sections and our discussions.
<AWK> is there an IO version to view the generated HTML?
kp: The techniques such as M003 will appear in the github document at the end of the section.
detlev: What will be the process for review by WCAG WG before we start actual work?
kp: linking will happen after it's been agreed upon. We are just walking you through the logistics
kw: Want to get AWK's opinion on technique review from WG
<Kathy> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Operable_Techniques
awk: want to reduce extra work
that's different from what the end result will be.
... would be good to discuss with WG to mitigate so techniques
don't go down different path, etc.
... Separate discussion will be on advisory or sufficient and
where it fits into extension model, etc.
jeanne: does what we write here have to fall under WCAG. Can we just have items that relate to this note?
awk: Ideally it would do both
detlev: could be confusing if items apply only to note and not WCAG
awk: we may end up with a WCAG advisory technique that is sufficient with an extension to WCAG. But maybe it will be 2 or 3 years before an extension comes out. By connecting it as an advisory now we could get it out sooner.
jeanne: Perhaps we should go back to using the WCAG technique template if we want to go that route.
<Jan> FYI: Back to the dynamically built content discussion: ARIA has http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/states_and_properties#aria-posinset and the APA (formerly PF) is apparently working on more support (e.g. in grids)
detlev: what is next step?
awk: like to make this happen
faster. We want to drive more discussion and decisions onto
list. Perhaps break this up into different emails and post to
list. Say mobile TF is looking on feedback as these for
techniques.
... how does that sound?
kw: Sure, up for that.
<Detlev> +1
kw: will collect feedback,
discussion list, and then assign to people to create. will
create survey. Also talk about Jan's proposal for an additional
section in the document. a lot of parallel things happening at
once.
... thank you for joining. look out for survey.
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.140 of Date: 2014-11-06 18:16:30 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Found Scribe: jon_avila Inferring ScribeNick: jon_avila Default Present: Kim_Patch, Kathy_Wahlbin, +1.408.425.aaaa, +1.703.359.aabb, jon_avila, +1.408.425.aacc, Jeanne, TomB, Shebanek, Marc_Johlic, Jan, AWK, Detlev Present: Kim_Patch Kathy_Wahlbin +1.408.425.aaaa +1.703.359.aabb jon_avila +1.408.425.aacc Jeanne TomB Shebanek Marc_Johlic Jan AWK Detlev Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobile-a11y-tf/2015Apr/0005.html Found Date: 09 Apr 2015 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2015/04/09-mobile-a11y-minutes.html People with action items:[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]