IRC log of mobile-a11y on 2015-04-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:45:54 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #mobile-a11y
14:45:54 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/04/09-mobile-a11y-irc
14:45:56 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs public
14:45:58 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF
14:45:58 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see WAI_MATF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 15 minutes
14:45:59 [trackbot]: Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:45:59 [trackbot]: Date: 09 April 2015
14:46:10 [Kim]: chair: Kathleen_Wahlbin
14:47:04 [Kim]: agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobile-a11y-tf/2015Apr/0005.html
14:47:59 [Kim]: agenda+ Survey starting at #4
14:48:00 [Kim]: agenda+ New techniques procedure
14:48:02 [Kim]: agenda+ Jan proposal
14:48:03 [Kim]: agenda+ Next Steps – Next meeting Thursday, April 16
14:48:14 [Kim]: agenda?
14:51:37 [Kim]: zakim, close item 2
14:51:37 [Zakim]: agendum 2, Survey, closed
14:51:38 [Zakim]: I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:51:38 [Zakim]: 3. Comments on note http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Comments_on_Mobile_Accessibility_Note_20150226 [from Kathy]
14:52:05 [Kim]: zakim, close item 3
14:52:05 [Zakim]: agendum 3, Comments on note http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Comments_on_Mobile_Accessibility_Note_20150226, closed
14:52:07 [Zakim]: I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:52:07 [Zakim]: 4. Responding to comments on Github [from Kathy]
14:52:23 [Kim]: zakim, close item 4
14:52:23 [Zakim]: agendum 4, Responding to comments on Github, closed
14:52:24 [Zakim]: I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:52:24 [Zakim]: 5. Survey starting at #4 [from Kim]
14:52:36 [Kim]: agenda?
14:53:18 [Zakim]: WAI_MATF()11:00AM has now started
14:53:25 [Zakim]: +Kim_Patch
15:00:06 [marcjohlic]: marcjohlic has joined #mobile-a11y
15:00:10 [Kathy]: Kathy has joined #mobile-a11y
15:00:20 [Zakim]: +Kathy_Wahlbin
15:00:50 [Detlev]: Detlev has joined #mobile-a11y
15:01:02 [jon_avila]: jon_avila has joined #mobile-a11y
15:01:54 [Zakim]: + +1.408.425.aaaa
15:01:56 [Zakim]: - +1.408.425.aaaa
15:02:30 [Zakim]: + +1.703.359.aabb
15:02:48 [jon_avila]: zakim, I am aabb
15:02:48 [Zakim]: +jon_avila; got it
15:02:52 [Zakim]: + +1.408.425.aacc
15:03:18 [Jan]: Jan has joined #mobile-a11y
15:03:26 [Jan]: zakim, code?
15:03:26 [Zakim]: the conference code is 6283 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Jan
15:03:43 [Shebanek]: Shebanek has joined #mobile-a11y
15:03:48 [Zakim]: +Jeanne
15:03:53 [Zakim]: +TomB
15:04:01 [Shebanek]: zakim, i am aacc
15:04:01 [Zakim]: +Shebanek; got it
15:04:12 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
15:04:13 [jeanne]: jeanne has joined #mobile-a11y
15:04:24 [Detlev]: Getting passcode is not valid again
15:04:27 [Zakim]: +Marc_Johlic
15:04:39 [Jan]: zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan
15:04:39 [Zakim]: +Jan; got it
15:04:41 [tbabinszki]: tbabinszki has joined #mobile-a11y
15:06:00 [Detlev]: 3rd dial-in attempt - putting in Code: 6283 and getting "This passvode is not valid"
15:06:15 [jeanne]: http://www.w3.org/2015/07/zakim.html
15:06:59 [Detlev]: tried again, same result...
15:07:03 [Zakim]: +AWK
15:07:28 [AWK]: AWK has joined #mobile-a11y
15:07:53 [Detlev]: I give up, I think...
15:08:39 [Detlev]: is there another pass code whIch might do the trick, perhaps?
15:08:48 [Kathy]: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/66524/20150330_survey/results#xq4
15:08:57 [jon_avila]: scribe: jon_avila
15:09:11 [jon_avila]: zakim, take up next
15:09:11 [Zakim]: agendum 5. "Survey starting at #4" taken up [from Kim]
15:10:08 [jon_avila]: kw: 3.4 device manipulation gestures - 2 techniques -- don't rely solely on gestures, allow use of hardware buttons, etc.
15:10:33 [Zakim]: +Detlev
15:10:39 [jon_avila]: kw: comment from Jan that button are rare -- we do have that in note. Should we not have a technique for this or is it lower priority?
15:10:45 [Detlev]: THANKS
15:10:51 [jon_avila]: jan: start by saying if the device has hardware buttons....
15:10:58 [jon_avila]: kw: agree to that
15:11:29 [jon_avila]: kw: David said we might need to rename technique to make it more clear. We can look at the later when we right -- KW will make note.
15:11:38 [jon_avila]: zakim, list attendees
15:11:38 [Zakim]: As of this point the attendees have been Kim_Patch, Kathy_Wahlbin, +1.408.425.aaaa, +1.703.359.aabb, jon_avila, +1.408.425.aacc, Jeanne, TomB, Shebanek, Marc_Johlic, Jan, AWK,
15:11:41 [Zakim]: ... Detlev
15:12:24 [jon_avila]: detlev: comment on when device buttons can be undone -- such as undo features.
15:13:06 [jon_avila]: detlev: Say if you shake a device to start reading -- is there a way to stop it -- more of theoretical at this point.
15:13:16 [jon_avila]: kw: Any other thoughts on that?
15:14:20 [jon_avila]: Mike: Don't know if that falls differently categories then what we already have. Perhaps something related to instructions and user not being aware of that feature is available.
15:14:48 [jon_avila]: kw: keep that as usability for now. Let's move on to next one.
15:15:21 [jon_avila]: kw: 3.5 placing buttons where they are easy to access. One we have now correlates so they can be reached with one hand.
15:16:43 [jon_avila]: jan: Don't want to say just place buttons in a certain way because there is no standard on that.
15:17:05 [jon_avila]: Kw: principle of what we are saying is good but the technique hasn't been defined.
15:17:44 [jon_avila]: detlev: ability to shift things into place is something to think about
15:18:19 [jon_avila]: awk: ability to test is issue -- iPhone 6 feature does bring things down -- but other devices don't have that.
15:18:32 [jon_avila]: kw: Some people may hold device differently or have it mounted.
15:18:58 [jon_avila]: awk: Can the developer stop an OS feature -- that might be something.
15:20:09 [jon_avila]: jan: Samsung Note has similar feature
15:20:27 [jon_avila]: detlev: What about placing buttons on edge where user may grip phone?
15:21:35 [jon_avila]: detlev: not easy to accidently press something
15:21:59 [jon_avila]: MikeS: iPad is mobile but not really usable with one hand while you are holding it. Are we too focused on phone.
15:22:05 [jon_avila]: kw: need to consider all of it.
15:22:16 [jon_avila]: q+
15:23:36 [jon_avila]: q-
15:24:42 [jon_avila]: MikeS: Force reset and screen shot may require two hands.
15:26:02 [jon_avila]: kw: gesture may be remappable
15:26:19 [jon_avila]: jan: touching and swiping from side of screen may also be issue for people with dexterity challenges
15:26:38 [jon_avila]: kw: If we had a technique -- what would it say?
15:27:16 [jon_avila]: marc: Would this only apply to gesture that are important or that don't have alternatives?
15:28:19 [jon_avila]: detlev: Seems that it would only be advisory -- since writing a failure technique would be difficult.
15:29:39 [jon_avila]: jan: commands need simple gestures such as button rather than requiring complex gestures to perform actions
15:29:53 [jon_avila]: detlev: when does a gesture become complex?
15:31:05 [Zakim]: -TomB
15:31:22 [jon_avila]: detlev: some gestures with talkback require two fingers to moved at the same time and are very complex in the calendar.
15:31:34 [Jan]: Perhaps: (Advisory) Provide simple gestures for controlling common functions.
15:31:47 [jon_avila]: mikeS: Principle that was implemented in iPhone common features should have the simplest gestures
15:32:05 [Kathy]: -Providing simple gestures for common functions
15:32:26 [jon_avila]: detlev: Zoom is common but you don't want it to be confused with other gestures so that is why it has a complex gesture.
15:32:48 [jon_avila]: jan: That is an OS level gestures -- we are talking about what developers of app do. Like the simple idea for common gestures
15:34:00 [jon_avila]: zakim, take up next
15:34:00 [Zakim]: agendum 6. "New techniques procedure" taken up [from Kim]
15:34:42 [jon_avila]: zakim, take up agendum 5
15:34:42 [Zakim]: agendum 5. "Survey starting at #4" taken up [from Kim]
15:35:18 [jon_avila]: mikeS: Scroll page affect is to provide continuous scrolling
15:35:43 [jon_avila]: jan: important use case for scrolling on the fly -- but other things such as menu on the fly don't make as much sense
15:36:03 [jon_avila]: kw: Alan had commented that vertical scrolling is issue.
15:36:50 [jon_avila]: jan: may want to have an indicator to let people know there is more to come
15:38:14 [jon_avila]: kw: Detlev do you want to talk about hover and focus and selection with touch long states?
15:38:25 [jon_avila]: detlev: We covered that under 3.1 keyboard
15:39:44 [jon_avila]: marc: When you have random icons in application -- label may be read with screen reader but there is no way for non AT user to know what it is. Some apps have a long press that allow you to find out more information about what the icon does. A way to identify controls and icons by long pressing. May fall under SC 1.1.1. alt text for sighted user.
15:40:03 [jon_avila]: mikeS: long press is good example but not prescriptive as a technique as it is used by other things
15:40:10 [AWK]: q+
15:40:30 [AWK]: q-
15:40:34 [jon_avila]: kp: New long press techniques with Apple watch too.
15:40:45 [jon_avila]: awk: Marc when do you see this coming up?
15:41:35 [jon_avila]: marc: Example would be gmail -- as a new user -- not sure what control do what. Some controls do tell you want the icon does.
15:42:51 [jon_avila]: ja: MObile devices don't have option to display alt text instead of image. Can be issue for low vision users with small differences in images.
15:43:43 [jon_avila]: awk: similar to what is being discussed in cognitive TF. Something that fall under OS or browser and other situations when developer must address it.
15:44:03 [jon_avila]: kw: Some apps have help mode that comes up and helps users learn what things are.
15:44:33 [jon_avila]: zakim, take up next
15:44:33 [Zakim]: agendum 6. "New techniques procedure" taken up [from Kim]
15:44:52 [jon_avila]: kp: procedure to turn these into proposals
15:45:01 [Kim]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Main_Page#Current_Work
15:45:35 [jon_avila]: kp:under WCAG techniques are new techniques repository and instructions for writing new techniques in Github
15:46:18 [jon_avila]: kp: Jeanne will setup file already in github. Just replace text in ALL CAPS.
15:46:28 [jeanne]: JS: The techniques previously identified are there. M001-M021.
15:47:45 [jon_avila]: kw: we have been trying to come up with key techniques that we should focus on. We will link to those in note. I will create a wiki page for each of the sections and our discussions.
15:49:02 [AWK]: is there an IO version to view the generated HTML?
15:49:46 [jon_avila]: kp: The techniques such as M003 will appear in the github document at the end of the section.
15:50:06 [jon_avila]: detlev: What will be the process for review by WCAG WG before we start actual work?
15:50:37 [jon_avila]: kp: linking will happen after it's been agreed upon. We are just walking you through the logistics
15:51:03 [jon_avila]: kw: Want to get AWK's opinion on technique review from WG
15:51:28 [Kathy]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Operable_Techniques
15:51:36 [jon_avila]: awk: want to reduce extra work that's different from what the end result will be.
15:52:11 [jon_avila]: awk: would be good to discuss with WG to mitigate so techniques don't go down different path, etc.
15:52:35 [jon_avila]: awk: Separate discussion will be on advisory or sufficient and where it fits into extension model, etc.
15:53:48 [jon_avila]: jeanne: does what we write here have to fall under WCAG. Can we just have items that relate to this note?
15:53:53 [jon_avila]: awk: Ideally it would do both
15:54:12 [jon_avila]: detlev: could be confusing if items apply only to note and not WCAG
15:55:29 [jon_avila]: awk: we may end up with a WCAG advisory technique that is sufficient with an extension to WCAG. But maybe it will be 2 or 3 years before an extension comes out. By connecting it as an advisory now we could get it out sooner.
15:55:57 [jon_avila]: jeanne: Perhaps we should go back to using the WCAG technique template if we want to go that route.
15:57:02 [Jan]: FYI: Back to the dynamically built content discussion: ARIA has http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/states_and_properties#aria-posinset and the APA (formerly PF) is apparently working on more support (e.g. in grids)
15:57:43 [jon_avila]: detlev: what is next step?
15:58:36 [jon_avila]: awk: like to make this happen faster. We want to drive more discussion and decisions onto list. Perhaps break this up into different emails and post to list. Say mobile TF is looking on feedback as these for techniques.
15:59:02 [jon_avila]: awk: how does that sound?
15:59:11 [jon_avila]: kw: Sure, up for that.
15:59:14 [Detlev]: +1
16:00:07 [jon_avila]: kw: will collect feedback, discussion list, and then assign to people to create. will create survey. Also talk about Jan's proposal for an additional section in the document. a lot of parallel things happening at once.
16:01:11 [jon_avila]: kw: thank you for joining. look out for survey.
16:01:14 [Zakim]: -Detlev
16:01:15 [Zakim]: -Shebanek
16:01:16 [Zakim]: -Jan
16:01:18 [jon_avila]: zakim, list attendees
16:01:18 [Zakim]: As of this point the attendees have been Kim_Patch, Kathy_Wahlbin, +1.408.425.aaaa, +1.703.359.aabb, jon_avila, +1.408.425.aacc, Jeanne, TomB, Shebanek, Marc_Johlic, Jan, AWK,
16:01:18 [Zakim]: ... Detlev
16:01:21 [Zakim]: -Marc_Johlic
16:01:21 [Zakim]: -Kathy_Wahlbin
16:01:30 [Zakim]: -Jeanne
16:01:30 [Zakim]: -AWK
16:01:47 [jon_avila]: RRSagent, make logs public
16:02:02 [jon_avila]: RRSAgent, make minutes
16:02:02 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/09-mobile-a11y-minutes.html jon_avila
16:02:05 [Zakim]: -Kim_Patch
16:02:06 [Zakim]: -jon_avila
16:02:06 [Zakim]: WAI_MATF()11:00AM has ended
16:02:07 [Zakim]: Attendees were Kim_Patch, Kathy_Wahlbin, +1.408.425.aaaa, +1.703.359.aabb, jon_avila, +1.408.425.aacc, Jeanne, TomB, Shebanek, Marc_Johlic, Jan, AWK, Detlev
16:02:46 [jon_avila]: zakim, bye
16:02:46 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #mobile-a11y
17:00:21 [jeanne]: jeanne has left #mobile-a11y