See also: IRC log
dezell: Previous minutes are here: http://www.w3.org/2014/11/25-wpay-minutes.html
<steph> ?
<steph> isn't the preivous https://www.w3.org/2014/12/02-wpay-minutes.html ?
dezell: Correct previous minutes are here: https://www.w3.org/2014/12/02-wpay-minutes.html
... any changes, is this okay for approval?
RESOLUTION: Web Payments IG Minutes from 02 December 2014 are approved for public publication.
trackbot, ACTION-2?
<trackbot> ACTION-2 -- David Ezell to Check for face-to-face place/time -- due 2014-11-05 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Payments/IG/track/actions/2
dezell: I'm going to suggest we close this - it's a topic of the discussion today.
<steph> trackbot, close action-2
<trackbot> Closed action-2.
trackbot, action-17?
<trackbot> action-17 -- Stéphane Boyera to Run doodle poll to find different day for the web payments ig call. -- due 2014-11-21 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Payments/IG/track/actions/17
<steph> trackbot, close action-17
<trackbot> Closed action-17.
trackbot, issue-20
<trackbot> Sorry, but issue-20 does not exist.
trackbot, issue-20?
<trackbot> Sorry, but issue-20 does not exist.
trackbot, action-20?
<trackbot> action-20 -- David Ezell to Set up doodle poll on times for telcons. -- due 2014-12-02 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Payments/IG/track/actions/20
<Erik> I also cannot connect to https://www.w3.org/2014/12/02-wpay-minutes.html
dezell: This wasn't surprising - 10am... should
we stay at 9:30am or move to 10am.
... Happy to move to 10am.
steph: I'm more in favor of top of hour - 9am or 10am ET.
manu: Don't think 30 minutes is going to make much of a difference... but 10am is fine with me.
steph: We have low participation now... that's concerning me. Don't know if it's a timing/day issue. Quite a few people are disappearing from the start.
<pat_adler> scribenick: pat_adler
manu: discussing option of doing a trial of moving the meeting to 1PM to allow for other timezones to more easily participate
<jyrossi> Mountie is the only asian participant 1pm E could be hindering for him
david: 1PM still makes it difficult for Asia to participate
<manu> scribenick: pat_adler
david: harder and harder to attend calls toward
the end of the year due to work commitments..
... should we talk offline about how to address?
<Zakim> manu, you wanted to suggest pinging group members.
stephane: perhaps focus on energies to pick up in January due to the Holiday
Manu: sometimes folks assigned are very busy. Perhaps we should inquire with them to allow them to delegate participation
david: good idea… I think we need an outreach
plan to address low turn out
... will take the outreach plan to email and figure out a way to address
<manu> trackbot, close action-20
<trackbot> Closed action-20.
david: next action is for claudia… David will reach out to her
manu: re Github - up to IG to figure out how to
integrate github into process.
... appears that w3c is on a path to move to git
... several options 1) use cvs as is 2) decide to use git
... would volunteer time to set up synch with github
david: do we have/need buy in?
stephane: several benefits to github…
<manu> biggest pull for Github isn't issue tracker, imho... it's how revision control is done, it's that people can edit documents using a web page.
<manu> (and we can work in branches, etc.)
stephane: really should be what makes it easiest for editors
<manu> and it's what W3C seems to be working toward.
<steph> +1
david: lets limit time on this till we have a solid direction
<manu> ACTION: Manu to put together plan for group to use Github (along w/ working scripts) and propose to group. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/12/09-wpay-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-31 - Put together plan for group to use github (along w/ working scripts) and propose to group. [on Manu Sporny - due 2014-12-16].
<manu> trackbot, close action-22
<trackbot> Closed action-22.
close Action-23
<trackbot> Closed Action-23.
<manu> pat_adler: It would be nice to use github branches, work in private, only publish when we want to.
+1
David: Erik and David discussing Claudia and Carla closing action 26
close action-26
<trackbot> Closed action-26.
David: action 27 is blocked
<Erik> +1 for GIT and working with private branches
David: to manu, should we close action 28
close action-28
<trackbot> Closed action-28.
ACtion 29 - Recruiting
<trackbot> Error finding '29'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Payments/IG/track/users>.
<manu> trackbot, close action-29
<trackbot> Closed action-29.
David: next item is task forces
Manu: updating use cases
<dezell> Meeting: Web Payments IG
manu: all use cases now in the wiki
... will assign all volunteers to specific use cases for editing..
<steph> FPWD
manu: will shoot to put top priority use cases into First Public Working Draft by January
<steph> First Public Working Draft
<manu> s/FPWG/FPWD/
david: other task force leads are not present
<manu> scribenick: manu
<pat_adler> discussing new diagram at: https://www.w3.org/Payments/IG/wiki/Payment_Agent_Task_Force#Attempt_at_harmonizing_versions_1_and_2_above.3D
pat_adler: At a high-level, this is a diagram I
sent out based on first couple of diagrams... trying to harmonize the diagram,
address what we're talking about as a group.
... Very loose sketch ... at top, there are a number of different payment
schemes.
... payment scheme means rules, technologies, etc that has to happen to
send/receive value.
... for example, cash transaction, credit card, bank transfer, etc.
... use cases are specific use cases inside payment scheme - credit card
processing / virtualized credit cards, etc.
... Top of diagram is logical breakdown of how this stuff fits together...
very high level.
... next level down - there is a concept of a local wallet - local user
interface, and communication interfaces... most of these today are
bi-directional, even displays can be used for both input/output
... for example display - type into display, output QR code to receive
payment.
... at application layer, pure wallet application - maybe tech company that's
providing independent wallet... like passbook, other applications on right -
in-app payments, applications that embed payment technology, etc.
... payment agent - key question on next layer down (browser layer) - is
payment agent a first class citizen in browser, or is wallet separate?
... I tried to not represent everything in the browser, that's logical
placeholder.
dezell: That's one of the things that changed in previous diagram... wallet application sat on top separate from payment agent.
pat_adler: some applications will want to embed payment into their application, maybe there is a line between web app and other app... but wallet app may need to take input from apps and payment agent/browser.
dezell: What is the payment agent?
pat_adler: That's a point of debate, so good question.
dezell: Is a User Agent providing a consistent user experience, or are you thinking of it as something else?
pat_adler: Thinking of it as separate thing, traditional meaning of user agent.
jyrossi: I have a few questions w/ the diagrams,
couldn't participate in previous meetings, but kept up with minutes.
... always the same 3 questions - 1) all these diagrams are basically the
relations around the wallet, it's using cards for payment - from a european
point of view, we're more linked w/ direct debit payments sending money from
point a to point b.
... All these new schemes - is that that easy to integrate into such a
diagram?
... 2) If we look at rules - rules are provided by payment schemes. We have to
comply w/ some requirements linked w/ biometric devices... access to payment
account... some bricks below the diagram, constraints from compliance (in
France). I don't think we could use the same key for all the bricks in the
design. My concern is about jurisdictional changes around the world.
... This is linked to glossary/definitions as well.
... every service provider being a part of the payer - just that will be
submitted to compliance and will be considered as being the payment
institution. Even if the service provider will never own the money, never touch
the funds, even in that case, it would be considered in EU as a payment
institution, which means that complaince is a concern.
<steph> qq+ to udnerstand why the diagram cannot handle direct debit
jyrossi: I was wondering if it would be possible to duplicate the diagram in order to make it more comprehensive to the european situation.
pat_adler: Absolutely, that would be good, please
modify the diagram.
... This approach doesn't talk about cards or a specific type of payment
schemes... whether that's card payment or direct debit... what's going to
happen is that there are two separate pictures, pieces of the wallet are
required in some payment schemes, but not others.
... For example, Apple Pay is a payment scheme... you have to use Secure
Element... but other payment schemes don't need that.
... payer and payee in different jurisdictions - we have to figure out how to
harmonize that... make end process as efficient as possible, but both
jurisdictions and scheme provider follow the proper compliance/regulatory
rules.
<Zakim> dezell, you wanted to ask questions
dezell: Obviously we want collaboration on this - diagram does need some work, maybe splitting it into two diagrams. I like the policy aspect of the upper, but I think I understand the confusion.
pat_adler: Sounds good.
dezell: I think this is headed to where stephane
wanted to go - slightly more complete diagram.
... I like the direction that this diagram is going in..
jyrossi: Just the cloud in center of it, if we imagine use cases inside, could we split into 3-4 main bits. For example, 1) authentication (KYC/AML), 2) consent of payment (new regulations cover this), 3) payment instrument (diagram so far is neutral to payment instrument, but I think it may be too neutral - you can't be completely neutral, in my opinion)
pat_adler: If you need the original, I can send
them in a format that works well for the group.
... I have Omnigraffle, but can export it in any format - Visio, etc.
<Zakim> steph, you wanted to understand why the diagram cannot handle direct debit
steph: A couple of things - I'm not an expert in
the domain, I'm hearing a few people in the group say different things. I don't
know if difference between underlying ways of doing payment should affect the
web layer.
... I don't get that - why does the underlying payment scheme affect the web
layer.
manu: +1 to steph - I don't understand why that is either.
steph: Maybe we should work through a couple of
examples... maybe we need something between the top layer and the one at the
bottom.
... Only if we try to instantiate the top diagram, credit card,
cryptocurrency, we may identify specific issues we need to address. As
discussion is going, still trying to understand/clarify.
<steph> +1 to manu: web layers feeding the payment layers doing the effective payment transaction
dezell: So, I think there is a missing component - what parts of the diagram are the web layer? Which parts are the transaction/payments layer?
Erik: Devil is in the details, we need to specify that in the diagram.
pat_adler: I like stephane's example - take the
picture and instantiate them via particular credit card scheme... you could run
through the stack/diagram and figure out which bits are needed for each payment
instrument.
... Maybe we should talk about which layers we're going to focus on...
provides context for where we're working... we are not going to specify how
display is going to work, that's out of scope, just there for context.
jyrossi: Within France, a short design is better
than a long speech. I'll iterate on the diagram.
... The answer on why some payment instruments are important to go through -
answer is simple, it's regulation. In each one of these squares, we have
compliance requirements.
... That's why payment instruments are relevant.
<pat_adler> +1
+1 to what Jean-Yves said, regulation is very important.
manu: +1 to what Jean-Yves said, regulation is very important.
pat_adler: yes, this is iterative - the key here is the payment scheme/instrument will drive many of the specific requirements of the overarching api (and regulatory requirements are important)
<steph> I'm not sure still that this impact technology on how different actors complete agreement on a transaction, thus the need to isntatiatie
<steph> in different schemes
pat_adler: I need help from the group on the
roadmap document.
... If that's ok, we should probably start figuring out next steps w/
roadmap.
manu: Have you chatted w/ David from Oracle?
pat_adler: I can work on this on trial basis, if things work well, I can keep going - if not, I'll need to lean on the group more.
dezell: We're here to support you.
pat_adler: I'm trying to figure out how to best do the work w/o becoming the bottleneck.
dezell: We're out of time, steph, Eric - we should try to schedule meeting to discuss face-to-face meeting.
s/Previous minutes are here: http://www.w3.org/2014/11/25-wpay-minutes.html//
s/isn't the preivous https://www.w3.org/2014/12/02-wpay-minutes.html ?//
<scribe> Meeting: Web Payments IG - Recruiting and Status Meeting