<scribe> scribe: manu

<scribe> Meeting: Web Payments IG

<scribe> scribenick: manu

dezell: I'm going to time constrain this administrivia, so we have more time for discussion.

dezell reviews agenda.

dezell: I have glossary first and roadmap second, Evert is joining at top of hour.
... After those two items, we'll have time for other TF reports.
... Any other additions to Agenda?

Previous Minutes

<dezell> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-webpayments-ig/2014Nov/0028.html

These are the previous minutes: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-webpayments-ig/2014Nov/0017.html

The actual, actual link to minutes: https://www.w3.org/2014/11/14-wpay-minutes.html

dezell: Make sure you are in the present list in the meeting minutes.
... Any changes/updates to minutes?
... Any objections to approving the minutes?

manu: +1 to approve minutes.

<padler> +1

RESOLUTION: Web Payments IG Minutes from 14 November 2014 are approved for public publication.

Action Items

<dezell> http://www.w3.org/Payments/IG/track/actions/open

dezell: We're trying to setup our next face-to-face after Thanksgiving. Still looking at wiki page - sometimes these filter in through email. Add conferences if you know of any. Erik you came up with one that might be good.
... It was a co-location opportunity.
... If anyone does know of a co-location, please put it in the wiki.
... If you look at the wiki page, let us know which ones you care about, which ones you don't.

Erik: We have offices in 80 countries in the world, if we can fix a date/location - I can get us facilities.

<Nitin> I can help with that as well.. on behalf of IBM

dezell: ACTION-6 - Claudia has accepted lead of Task Force for document reviews. Let's retire this action.

claudia: My basic plan is to talk to TC68 chair - they have to give us approval to use use cases and 12812 document, not yet a published standard. With holidays you don't know, but will talk with her as soon as I can.

trackbot, close ACTION-6

<trackbot> Closed ACTION-6.

dezell: Should we close action 12?

trackbot, close ACTION-12

<trackbot> Closed ACTION-12.

erik: That would be good.

dezell: Next one is for Jörg - ACTION-14 - he has established the wiki page. Let's close that

trackbot, close ACTION-14

<trackbot> Closed ACTION-14.

dezell: Next one is link post entry to blog home page. ACTION-15 - I haven't read it yet, but this can be closed

trackbot, close ACTION-15

<trackbot> Closed ACTION-15.

dezell: Next one is to launch discussion about deliverables about IG. Action-16 can be closed

trackbot, close ACTION-16

<trackbot> Closed ACTION-16.

dezell: ACTION-17 - run doodle poll to find different day for IG call - please fill out the Doodle poll. Don't know if anyone on the call knows Dan Austin - 6am is too early for West coast.
... How far should we move it? If we do, do we split into two different groups?

chaals: I suggest you setup a poll w/ times and days. People like me have no problem being at a meeting Thursday at 11pm local.
... Thursday night is a meeting night, but Tuesday I can't do. There is no real magic - ask people what they can do and ask people best fit.

dezell: I'll do my best to setup a Doodle poll.

<dezell> ACTION: DE to set up doodle poll on times for telcons. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/25-wpay-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-20 - Set up doodle poll on times for telcons. [on David Ezell - due 2014-12-02].

dezell: Let's leave ACTION-17 open until we make a decision.
... ACTION-18 - ask TC68 to get access for use case task force.

erik: This had to do with getting Use Case Task Force access - Claudia wants to talk to Carla - so if we can't get the entire group access - let's get at least Manu access.

Claudia: I think you can move that Action item to me - access to 12812 is more difficult...

erik: What about 20022?

Claudia: 20022 isn't a document as such - there are hundreds of standards in 20022 - which standards do you want access to?
... Anyone in public can get access to public repository.

Erik: I have access to it, Manu needs access to it.

Claudia: People that are not X9 need access to it.
... Got it, I'll ask Clara.

trackbot, close ACTIOn-18

<trackbot> Closed ACTIOn-18.

<padler> Here is a nice link/summary of some of the business domain for ISO 20022 http://www.iso20022.org/business_model.page

<scribe> ACTION: Claudia to ask TC68 how to get non-X9 members access to use cases documents. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/25-wpay-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-21 - Ask tc68 how to get non-x9 members access to use cases documents. [on Claudia Swendseid - due 2014-12-02].

padler: Those business domain models/diagrams might help Stephane based on his latest question on the mailing list.

dezell: Next one is to get doodle poll together for next PA Task Force.

erik: I think that's done - for Payment Agent.

jheuer: Yes, that was setup,

dezell: Can you provide the link please?

<jheuer> http://doodle.com/u59hvdm4y8ye45rk

jheuer: There's the link to the Payment Agent Task Force meeting time.

trackbot, close ACTIOn-19

<trackbot> Closed ACTIOn-19.

trackbot, reopen ACTIOn-19

<trackbot> Re-opened ACTIOn-19.

<wseltzer_transit> ~.

trackbot, close ACTIOn-19

<trackbot> Closed ACTIOn-19.

<padler> which timezone is the doodle poll in?

manu: Do we want to track the github use issue?

<Nitin> nitin needs to drop for a client call @ 9 CST. I will follow up on activities... thanks.

<scribe> ACTION: Manu to figure out how this group can officially use Github. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/25-wpay-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-22 - Figure out how this group can officially use github. [on Manu Sporny - due 2014-12-02].

<Nitin> unless we are are checking in artifacts, a wiki like model to collaborate would work better... or link wiki to a file repository...

Claudia: Last year we commissioned McKinsey about faster payments - not directly applicable, but would that be useful information to the group

manu: +1, would be very useful

jheuer: Yes, very interesting

dezell: yes, please share.

<chaals> [chaals leaves]

Roadmap Document

<dezell> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webpayments-ig/2014Nov/0039.html

dezell: Stephane started the discussion - the group needs to focus on deliverables that are most beneficial to solidifying our position so we know where we are and what we're doing.
... Since the development roadmap we think is what is going to happen, fills those holes - we've considered the creation of that document as an excercise in how to make that happen.
... We have three task forces - Document Review, Use Cases, Payment Agent, Glossary Task Force.
... What we have right now isn't ready for prime time, but we could pull that stuff together fairly quickly into something cohesive.
... Important contributions will come into this document from the Task Forces.
... If we get the first draft out, it'll prove that we're making progress. It'll give them confidence that we'll know one path forward.
... Manu, this is in line w/ your thinking - but a bit different of an approach.
... We think there are multiple paths - one of these paths will lead to a common platform. If we can simply give people ideas on where those paths are through the woods, that'll help them come forward and either make progress or point out to us why we're not doing a good job.
... I think this document will be a working group note - framing this in the way IETF does it - request for comments... we don't think we know more about payments than anyone else. We want to present it as a request for feedback "This is what we think we want to do, what does the rest of the world think?"
... We want to present it in a humble way.
... Chairs have no real standarding - Editor's stay on TR page for long times.

David_Jackson: I'm new to this process, but happy to help - Editing sounds like my speed.
... I can help with editing. Another quick warning - I have a semi-technical background, mostly business-sales side.

<Zakim> manu, you wanted to mention potential new members.

<Ryladog> I would possibly be able to contribute to editing, as I am familiar with W3C process

manu: I'd like to volunteer as Editor on multiple documents - not lead editor, but supporting. I've done it before, know how to do it.
... What are we doing about new members coming into the group?
... What are we doing about them? How do we get them into the group?

dezell: We do have invited experts - we have to be careful about that.
... I put up a little ABCDE straw outline - how do people feel about that?
... Bottom part of this email: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webpayments-ig/2014Nov/0039.html
... What do people feel about it?
... Target scenarios - the [use_case] task force will provide content.
... Relevant existing standards - at our f2f we identified several.
... Potential sample architectures - the [payment_agent] task force will provide content.
... Projections - taking a, b, and c together, provide some idea of expected progress in the industry.
... Glossary - the Glossary Task Force will provide content.

<dezell> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webpayments-ig/2014Nov/0039.html

jheuer: I've always said I'd volunteer to do editorial work - in support of the outline of the document. I think we need to deliver something people need to hold in their hand. Not just a set of wikis and other documents. That's important.
... I'm still struggling to get into how to work with this stuff - would like to help where I can.

padler: Also interested in helping to be an editor on the Roadmap document.
... If we get some of the higher-level stuff outlined, it'll allow us as a group to create separate streams of work, so people understand what the roadmap looks like. Put together a framework for the standard that helps partition the work, that'd be good. This document would be a critical piece of that
... At the top level, what do we want to accomplish for payments in general? It's a pretty clear separation between each component. Does that make sense?

dezell: We want that.

Erik: Don't forget that the ISOs have done a good job of laying this stuff out - their process/roadmap is pretty close to what we want to do. We can then split the work into parallelizable stuff into different business processes / task forces.

padler: They've created the plugs, we're creating the outlets. It's a key piece of what's missing.

erik: It's a bit chicken-before-egg - we don't need to invent this stuff - boilerplate is already there.

<padler> it's the inverse...

<padler> lot's of plugs but no outlets yet...

<padler> :)

<padler> that's ok..

Claudia: One thing related to the roadmap - get audience engaged - get layperson engaged. We want to outline why this work is important - restate key problems and state clearly a vision.
... We might want to re-state something in a more high level - something like Manu's vision/outline

dezell: We have four people that have volunteered to editors - we should consider this group our editor's for now. We already have Joerg and Manu have taken on considerable responsibilities. Lead should be David J. or Patrick. You guys decide.

jheuer: All references being discussed for payments industry - just want to give a little warning based on many years of experience - we must avoid being pulled into existing industry's vocab/ecosystem - we want to create a level playing field.
... Payment industry is well regulated/standardized - but we need to make sure that what we're building supports a level playing field.

manu: +1 to Joerg - great points.

jheuer: We've found some of these things stop innovation from happening, we need to be careful.

padler: I want to build on what Joerg is saying and what Claudia is saying - payments today is like email before the standards.

<jheuer> ... of course, you have to know existing standards to come up with new things that are better

padler: I've seen a number of payment types recently that are all closed. I think we should frame this around building a bridge between all these proprietary/closed systems and trying to do what email did to sending messages. Moving value across the Internet - we're trying to do for payments what SMTP did for email.

erik: There is a lot of good grammar from old business processes w/o creating new grammars for world to use. We're not going to use the entire ISO standard, but we're definitely going to use pieces of those. Does that make sense?

padler: Yes, right. We want to re-use where we can, but make sure we are also innovating and ensuring broad interoperability/use.

<jheuer> +1 to importance of terminology

dezell: Even level of discourse over past month, I'm impressed w/ depth of knowledge in this group. This roadmap will look good given caveats we're throwing around. We have to step carefully.
... Start discussion over email wrt. this topic.

Erik: I want to recruit people from financial services - (lists a number of organizations)
... Send those contacts to me, I want to try to bring them on. Any recruiting efforts/sidelines, bring me on board and integrate me.

Glossary

dezell: Can you give us a rundown on the state of play Evert.

Evert: What types of elements should be in the glossary? Should be organized alphabetically? Remarks from Manu on Web Payments CG use cases glossary items?

<dezell> http://www.w3.org/Payments/IG/wiki/Glossary

Evert: I've only put in things from IG at this time.
... Should the glossary be wiki pages w/ terms per page - or just have one page?

manu: +1 for all terms in single page.

<jheuer> +1 to single page

dezell: I agree

Evert: Ok, we'll keep on single page for now.
... Definitions and references - a bit further on, you can see "transaction" - tried to fill it out a bit more.
... Every term that we can think of, we may have multiple candidates. There will be some discussion on other terminology, some more process related w/ setting up the glossary.

<padler> Here's also a helpful link from the ISO world on definitions.. http://www.iso20022.org/documents/Business_Model/BusinessModelDefinitions.zip

jheuer: I already used the wiki to edit - should we focus on how we describe things on payments use cases itself?
... For example - for authentication, it's about payment in the end. Do we want to be neutral, and talk about authentication types that there are.

dezell: Are you saying we rely on the use case technology.

jheuer: For example, look at glossary now - authentication right now is talking specifically about buyers/payers, etc.

manu: +1 I agree with Joerg - make them more generic, provide examples to different types of authn

dezell: If there is a more expansive definition, maybe we should have notes - won't we become non-specific when we describe authentication - loses it's usefulness.
... W3C people can get VERY theoretical, so that's the danger.

jheuer: I think we can put notes in wiki page - let's not discuss here.

dezell: Let's just use common sense.
... Next meeting is at same time, but look at doodle poll.

Erik: We're chicken before egg again - existing ISOs are good at payer/payee - review those documents.

padler: Look at this link - every term ISO considers important - http://www.iso20022.org/documents/Business_Model/BusinessModelDefinitions.zip
... Considering how many different contexts - there are multiple authentication standards - EMVco - different technologies that can do authn - we might want to reference other standards.
... Combine them to do a bridge - payment type of X needs authentication type Y.

erik: Do you know standards that cover that? Authentication standards?

padler: That's one of the key things - we need to get a list of those together. List of which standards hit us in which ways. How do we want to plug them in? FIDO, OpenID, etc. Not suggesting any of them are the right one - we need to figure out how they're used.
... We're ok if any one of those three can be used for authn. Depending on context you're working in - context provides magic that tells you have to integrate.

Evert: We should be clear in glossary - in standards, we can see how protocols relate to authn. I'll look at ISO 20022 document - enrich terminology list. Discussions per term, we shoul dhave email discussions on those.

Erik: Can we talk about this offline? Also a part of FIDO U2F and UAF - maybe we can talk more in-depth about this offline.

padler: I don't think we want to copy all these terms from one standard to another. It would be good to say ISO20022 is what we plug into eventually, that's how we could plug into it eventually. Standards integration interface.

dezell: I suggest that you coordinate w/ Claudia on that - selection committee -

padler: Looking to learn as much as offering input

dezell: Let's close call at this point, thanks everyone - next meeting is same time next week. Doodle polls - we need people from West Coast. Thanks everyone, we'll talk next week.

This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.140  of Date: 2014-11-06 18:16:30  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/Katy Harit/Katie_Harit/
Succeeded: s/haha//
Succeeded: s/dezell, this is wpay//
Succeeded: s/you have to phrase it in the form of a question!?//
Succeeded: s/hmmmm.//
Succeeded: s/Thanks Manu//
Succeeded: s/They've created the outlets, we're creating the plugs./They've created the plugs, we're creating the outlets./
Found Scribe: manu
Inferring ScribeNick: manu
Found ScribeNick: manu
Default Present: Davd_Ezell, manu, +1.612.655.aaaa, pat_adler, Nitin, Claudia, +33.1.58.40.aabb, Cyril, Erik, +1.614.560.aacc, David_Jackson, Bryan_Sullivan, [IPcaller], chaals, Katie_Haritos-Shea, joerg, evert
Present: Bryan_Sullivan Claudia Davd_Ezell David_Jackson Erik Evert Katie_Haritos-Shea Nitin Pat_Adler chaals manu Cyril_Vignet
Regrets: Stephane_Boyera
Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-webpayments-ig/2014Nov/0028.html
Got date from IRC log name: 25 Nov 2014
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2014/11/25-wpay-minutes.html
People with action items: claudia de manu

WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines.
You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.