W3C

- DRAFT -

Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference

05 Aug 2014

Agenda

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
AWK, Joshue, Sailesh_Panchang, David_MacDonald, Mike_Elledge, Marc_Johlic, Wilco, Michael_Cooper, Kenny, Bruce_Bailey, [IPcaller]
Regrets
Jonathan_Avila
Chair
Joshue
Scribe
wilco

Contents


<trackbot> Date: 05 August 2014

<AWK> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Scribe_List

<AWK> scribe: wilco

ISSUES and ACTIONS walkthrough

<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/issues/37

Josh: James suggested a usemap example

<Joshue> ISSUE-37: Update of test procedure for F17

<trackbot> Notes added to ISSUE-37 Update of test procedure for F17.

Josh: did we deal with this yet?

Andrew: There was a comment to this

Josh: Leave it for now then

<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/issues/open

Josh: Need to better annotate where we leave off.

<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/open

<Joshue> action-236

<trackbot> action-236 -- Alastair Campbell to Provide live example for example 2 of http://www.w3.org/wai/gl/wiki/using_grouping_roles_to_identify_related_form_controls -- due 2013-12-24 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/236

<Joshue> action-236: Josh Pinged to ask if there was an update and he responded to say that he would do some more work on the technique

<trackbot> Notes added to action-236 Provide live example for example 2 of http://www.w3.org/wai/gl/wiki/using_grouping_roles_to_identify_related_form_controls.

Josh: Need a more fully formed example. Alastair offered to do that.

<Joshue> action-230

<trackbot> action-230 -- David MacDonald to Add example 3 from salish, see email to list -- due 2013-11-19 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/230

<Loretta> zakim IPcaller is Loretta

<Joshue> action-230: David to contact Sailesh for more info

<trackbot> Notes added to action-230 Add example 3 from salish, see email to list.

David: I'll send Salish an e-mail after the call about this
... I think he had trouble putting it in so I offered to do so

<Joshue> action-228

<trackbot> action-228 -- Bruce Bailey to Work with david on creating clear list of edits for http://lists.w3.org/archives/public/public-wcag2-techs/2012jan/0001.html -- due 2013-11-05 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/228

<Joshue> http://lists.w3.org/archives/public/public-wcag2-techs/2012jan/0001.html

<Joshue> action-228: Relates to data tables a11y, Bruce and David to liase

<trackbot> Notes added to action-228 Work with david on creating clear list of edits for http://lists.w3.org/archives/public/public-wcag2-techs/2012jan/0001.html.

David: Need to get back on that

<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/228

<Joshue> http://lists.w3.org/archives/public/public-wcag2-techs/2012jan/0001.html

Michael: Action contains a broken link.

<MichaelC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wcag2-techs/2012Jan/0001.html

Michael: I think this is a case error

<Joshue> action-227: Relates to data tables a11y, Bruce and David to liase

<trackbot> Notes added to action-227 Work with david on creating clear list of edits for http://lists.w3.org/archives/public/public-wcag2-techs/2013may/0001.html.

Bruce: 227 & 228 might both relate to data tables

<bbailey> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wcag2-techs/2013May/0001.html

<bbailey> Yes, 227/228 closely related

<Joshue> action-217

<trackbot> action-217 -- Michael Cooper to Clarify on wcag home page that participation in tfs counts to overall wg participation expectations -- due 2013-09-24 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/217

Michael: 217 has not been done I think
... will revisit this later.

<Joshue> action-217: Michael to revisit as of 5th August

<trackbot> Notes added to action-217 Clarify on wcag home page that participation in tfs counts to overall wg participation expectations.

Josh: General call to everyone, please look if you have open actions.

<Joshue> action-216

<trackbot> action-216 -- Bruce Bailey to Draft possible failure for using role=heading without aria-level to represent a hierarchy of headings. -- due 2013-09-17 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/216

<Joshue> action-216: Bruce to revisit during August

<trackbot> Notes added to action-216 Draft possible failure for using role=heading without aria-level to represent a hierarchy of headings..

Bruce: 216 Hopefully in august I'll get caught up on these.

<Joshue> action-213

<trackbot> action-213 -- David MacDonald to Work on adding his additional knowledge about uses of level to this technique. -- due 2013-09-03 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/213

David: 213, probably one of those things... When we do our minutes, all make sure we get our action items.
... I'll go through the minutes for it.

Loretta: 206 I have to go back, can't remember the discussion

<Joshue> action-206: Loretta to revisit as of 5th August

<trackbot> Notes added to action-206 Revise http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/F43:_Failure_of_Success_Criterion_1.3.1_due_to_using_structural_markup_in_a_way_that_does_not_represent_relationships_in_the_content.

Josh: Let's leave it on the agenda until Alastair is on the call

Survey - https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20140805/

Josh: Item 1, comment from Michael.

LC-2944: Placeholder text contrast

<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/WD-UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20-20140724/2944

Michael: Response is fine, question was if in general someone probably has the same question so I want to ask what we should do
... the commenter asked a question. Someone else may have that question. Should we also clarify the material, as a general rule?
... I'm asking if we should also edit the document.

Marc: We should go for

<Joshue> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/F30.html

<Joshue> SC 1.4.1

<AWK> http://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/visual-audio-contrast-without-color.html

David: Maybe add a sentence about placeholder text. Maybe "Placeholder text does qualify as text".

<AWK> http://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/visual-audio-contrast-contrast.html

David: I'll take up the item

<Zakim> Bruce_Bailey, you wanted to ask about inactive drop dows

Bruce: What's the rational for not having the requirement on inactive items?

<Joshue> ACTION: David to draft new text for clarification on placeholder text a la 1.4.3 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/08/05-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-267 - Draft new text for clarification on placeholder text a la 1.4.3 [on David MacDonald - due 2014-08-12].

<Joshue> action-267: https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/WD-UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20-20140724/2944

<trackbot> Notes added to action-267 Draft new text for clarification on placeholder text a la 1.4.3.

David: It was a concurrences, was not in there originally. Was negotiated for

<Joshue> action-267: http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20140408/G148

<trackbot> Notes added to action-267 Draft new text for clarification on placeholder text a la 1.4.3.

<Joshue> action-267: http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/F30.html

<trackbot> Notes added to action-267 Draft new text for clarification on placeholder text a la 1.4.3.

Bruce: I think placeholder text is in the same state a lot of times

<Joshue> +q

Bruce: Sometimes it would be reasonable to say sometimes it is an inactive element, though obviously the field is editable

Loretta: The purpose is to provide information about the field. If people can't read it there is no point in having it there
... I think it's not inactive. It must be perceivable.

Mike: I agree with Loretta. It seems to me it's informative to completion of the task.

Andrew: Agree with Loretta. Is it ok if you have the same text adjacent to it?

Josh: Most people feel that it should be perceivable.

David: I'll be glad to take the action

Josh: Add these notes to the action

Michael: If we take an action we can't finish the comment now. Maybe improve the wording.

Andrew: We don't have to tell we are going to do something. We answer the question.

Josh: I prefer to have the action

Michael: Don't close the comment before the action is finished

Josh: Leave the action open

<David> The minimum contrast success criterion (1.4.3) applies to text in the page, and placeholder text is text in the page. If used, placeholder text needs to provide sufficient contrast in order to avoid a 1.4.3 failure.

Marc: Maybe say "informative placeholder text"?

Mike: Maybe "Unless the information is provided somewhere else?"

Josh: I think it may be confusing to say "informative"

<AWK> I'd like to remove "in order to avoid a 1.4.3 failure" from the suggested note text.

Mike: It may be redundant if the placeholder text is elsewhere.

Josh: I don't know if we need to be that strict

<Joshue> The minimum contrast success criterion (1.4.3) applies to text in the page, and placeholder text is text in the page. If used, placeholder text needs to provide sufficient contrast

<Joshue> +1

<Mike_Elledge> +1

David: Andrew's suggestion is fine

<bbailey> +1

RESOLUTION: Updated to understanding document 1.4.3

<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/WD-UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20-20140724/2944

RESOLUTION: Updated LC-2944 Accepted as amended

<David> http://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/visual-audio-contrast-contrast.html

Josh: go to item 5

<Joshue> LC-2941: Social Media Buttons

LC-2941: Social Media Buttons

<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/REC-WCAG20-20081211/2941

Andrew: If you can please do "TOPIC colon ITEM"

Josh: Loretta made a point about conformance to level A

Loretta: We might want to add some of that text to the response.
... I'm wondering if partial conformance could be a solution for such problem

Josh: Is this a common pattern for social media sites?
... He's wondering if partial conformance can be applied to these sites
... In the reply Andrew makes the point that not all do this.
... What do we need to say to that?

Andrew: I added a middle paragraph

Josh: So the answer is that partial conformance can apply but you do fail WCAG

<Mike_Elledge> +1

Loretta: Response looks good

Josh: Christoph mentions that there are alternatives to the button. Andrew already mentions this

RESOLUTION: LC-2941 Accepted as amended

LC-2909: Headings at Each Section of Content to Meet SC 2.4.1?

<Joshue> LC-2909

<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/NOTE-UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20-20140306/2909

Josh: I thought Andrew made a connection with the Jaws issue, but no

Sailesh: It addresses my response
... my concern is that if you insert a heading where there is none, as an off screen heading, that is not for 1.3.1 or 2.3.1
... In that case H42 kicks in.
... Inserting a heading only for skipping that would be more then the criterion requires.
... and an off screen heading is a CSS technique, not HTML

Andrew: I intend for the heading to be visible. I don't think you pass 2.4.10 with invisible headings
... H69 is sufficient for 2.4.9 and can also be for 2.4.10. But invisible headings don't allow you to meet 2.4.10

Sailesh: Only 2.4.10 requires visible headings

Andrew: I don't think you can meet 2.4.1 with off screen headers either

Sailesh: If there has to be a technique to navigate having it would have to be an off screen heading
... on one hand you argue that you can have 2.4.1 and 2.4.10 together. You can do H69 to meet 2.4.1

Josh: Headings are a well established way. You shouldn't insert headings just to bypass blocks, doesn't make sense

Mike: Underlying question is if having a heading is right. It is supposed to precede a section. There is other way to bypass content
... it may be an incorrect way to use a heading.

Loretta: People shouldn't think they have to put headings everywhere

Josh: We need to make it clear that you don't need to add headings because there are other ways

Sailesh: I can work on a new technique for that.
... If you use H42 that follows a repetitive block, it can meet 2.4.1

Loretta: I don't think it's hard to combine those
... This is off the track from the current issue

Andrew: I think for H42 you just have to mark up text that are headings. They could ocure prior to sections to jump over. You can pass H42 without meeting 2.4.1
... The techniques cover more ground separate then together

Josh: Developers look at WCAG different then we do.
... Suggest leaving the idea of merging the H42 and H69

<AWK> Does anyone else on the group feel that we should merge H69 and H42?

Andrew: We probably won't create a new technique in the next few weeks. I suggest we modify this technique so that it covers 2.4.1 and 2.4.10
... We can make a technique just for 2.4.1. Then split H69 out later on

Josh: Right, that would incrementally improve the techniques

Sailesh: i don't understand how to have a technique for just 2.4.1

<Joshue> <discussion continues>

<Joshue> Next week take up from Item 4 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20140805/results#xlc2944

<AWK> Are we going to call for acceptance on 2909?

<Mike_Elledge> +1

<Joshue> RESOLUTION: LC 2909 accepted as amended, Sailesh expressed concern

<Mike_Elledge> bye! Have a good vacation!

<AWK> Trackbot, end meeting

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: David to draft new text for clarification on placeholder text a la 1.4.3 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/08/05-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action01]
 
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$Date: 2014-08-05 16:34:56 $

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Succeeded: s/RESOLUTION: LC-2944 Accepted as amended/RESOLUTION: Updated to understanding document 1.4.3/
Succeeded: s/ammended/amended/
Found Scribe: wilco
Inferring ScribeNick: Wilco
Default Present: AWK, Joshue, Sailesh_Panchang, David_MacDonald, Mike_Elledge, Marc_Johlic, Wilco, Michael_Cooper, Kenny, Bruce_Bailey, [IPcaller]
Present: AWK Joshue Sailesh_Panchang David_MacDonald Mike_Elledge Marc_Johlic Wilco Michael_Cooper Kenny Bruce_Bailey [IPcaller]
Regrets: Jonathan_Avila
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2014JulSep/0125.html
Found Date: 05 Aug 2014
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2014/08/05-wai-wcag-minutes.html
People with action items: david

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