Meeting Record

edit

XHTML Virtual FtF Day 1

Minutes of 17 June 2008

Agenda

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2008-06-FtF-Agenda

Present

Roland Merrick, Gregory Rosmaita, Steven Pemberton, Tina Holmboe, Alessio Cartocci

Chair

Roland Merrick

Scribe

Steven Pemberton

IRC Log

Original

Resolutions

None.

Topics

Backpatting
1. BREAK ==
  1. Return at **:15 ===
XML Base Review
XHR review
Transitions
CURIEs last call comments
Role last call comments
Access
Putting the specs together
1. Break til top of hour ====
XFrames
AOB

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07:30:57 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-xhtml-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-xhtml-irc ←

07:31:03 <Steven> zakim, this will be xhtml

Steven Pemberton: zakim, this will be xhtml ←

07:31:03 <Zakim> ok, Steven; I see IA_XHTML2()4:00AM scheduled to start in 29 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; I see IA_XHTML2()4:00AM scheduled to start in 29 minutes ←

07:31:22 <Steven> rrsagent, make log public

Steven Pemberton: rrsagent, make log public ←

07:31:37 <Steven> Meeting: XHTML Virtual FtF Day 1

07:31:41 <Steven> Chair: Roland

07:32:48 <Steven> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jun/0043

07:32:53 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jun/0043

Steven Pemberton: Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jun/0043 ←

07:33:29 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes

Steven Pemberton: rrsagent, make minutes ←

07:33:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-xhtml-minutes.html Steven ←

07:58:30 <Steven> rrsagent, here?

(No events recorded for 25 minutes)

Steven Pemberton: rrsagent, here? ←

07:58:30 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-xhtml-irc#T07-58-30

RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-xhtml-irc#T07-58-30 ←

08:00:09 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()4:00AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: IA_XHTML2()4:00AM has now started ←

08:00:17 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617

Steven Pemberton: zakim, dial steven-617 ←

08:00:19 <Zakim> +Roland

Zakim IRC Bot: +Roland ←

08:00:20 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; the call is being made ←

08:00:21 <Zakim> +Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven ←

08:01:17 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita

Zakim IRC Bot: +Gregory_Rosmaita ←

08:03:25 <Steven> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2008-06-FtF-Agenda

08:03:37 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2008-06-FtF-Agenda

Steven Pemberton: Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2008-06-FtF-Agenda ←

08:06:23 <Zakim> +??P2

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2 ←

08:06:46 <Steven> zakim, ??P2 is Yam

Steven Pemberton: zakim, ??P2 is Yam ←

08:06:46 <Zakim> +Yam; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Yam; got it ←

08:06:46 <oedipus> zakim, ??P2 is Yam

Gregory Rosmaita: zakim, ??P2 is Yam ←

08:06:48 <Zakim> I already had ??P2 as Yam, oedipus

Zakim IRC Bot: I already had ??P2 as Yam, oedipus ←

08:08:14 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/Project/IRC/

Steven Pemberton: http://www.w3.org/Project/IRC/ ←

08:08:48 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/Project/IRC/#Client

Steven Pemberton: http://www.w3.org/Project/IRC/#Client ←

08:09:03 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2001/01/cgi-irc

Gregory Rosmaita: http://www.w3.org/2001/01/cgi-irc ←

08:09:18 <Roland> http://cgi.w3.org/member-bin/irc/irc.cgi

Roland Merrick: http://cgi.w3.org/member-bin/irc/irc.cgi ←

08:12:57 <yamx> hello, this is yam.

Scribe problem: the name 'yamx' does not match any of the 22 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Christina Bottomley Elias Torres Gerrie Shults Gregory Rosmaita John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Mark Birbeck Masataka Yakura Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Susan Borgrink Tina Holmboe Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown yamx: hello, this is yam. ←

08:13:12 <oedipus> for ARIA discussion - host language integration proposed by CharlesMcN: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2008AprJun/att-0407/aria-implementation.html

Gregory Rosmaita: for ARIA discussion - host language integration proposed by CharlesMcN: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2008AprJun/att-0407/aria-implementation.html ←

08:13:31 <Steven> Scribe: Steven

(Scribe set to Steven Pemberton)

08:13:39 <Steven> Topic: Backpatting

1. Backpatting

08:13:49 <Steven> Steven: Three specs have transitioned this week

Steven Pemberton: Three specs have transitioned this week ←

08:13:52 <Steven> ... Basic

... Basic ←

08:13:54 <Steven> ... M12N

... M12N ←

08:13:57 <Steven> ... RDFa

... RDFa ←

08:14:12 <oedipus> hip, hip, hooray!

Gregory Rosmaita: hip, hip, hooray! ←

08:14:52 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/News/2008#item111

http://www.w3.org/News/2008#item111 ←

08:18:18 <oedipus> for ARIA discussion - host language integration proposed by CharlesMcN: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2008AprJun/att-0407/aria-implementation.html

Gregory Rosmaita: for ARIA discussion - host language integration proposed by CharlesMcN: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2008AprJun/att-0407/aria-implementation.html ←

08:20:07 <Steven> Gergory: There is a proposal. Basic proposal, doesn't actually use role

Gregory Rosmaita: There is a proposal. Basic proposal, doesn't actually use role ←

08:20:15 <oedipus> ARIA roles are applied to an element with the "role" attribute. This attribute is derived from the XHTML Role Attribute Module [XHTML-ROLES] but is not technically an actual usage of that specification. As in the XHTML Role Attribute Module, this attribute is in no namespace. However, values of the attribute are not CURIEs [CURIE], but simply strings.

Gregory Rosmaita: ARIA roles are applied to an element with the "role" attribute. This attribute is derived from the XHTML Role Attribute Module [XHTML-ROLES] but is not technically an actual usage of that specification. As in the XHTML Role Attribute Module, this attribute is in no namespace. However, values of the attribute are not CURIEs [CURIE], but simply strings. ←

08:20:42 <Steven> s/Gerg/Greg/

08:20:44 <oedipus> The role attribute indicates what type of object the element represents.

Gregory Rosmaita: The role attribute indicates what type of object the element represents. ←

08:20:56 <Steven> Gregory: It doesn't use CURIEs either, but just strings

Gregory Rosmaita: It doesn't use CURIEs either, but just strings ←

08:22:55 <ShaneM> zakim, code

Shane McCarron: zakim, code ←

08:22:55 <Zakim> I don't understand 'code', ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'code', ShaneM ←

08:22:59 <Steven> ... the whole effort right now, misplaced in my opinion, hardcodes aria-* into Firefox

... the whole effort right now, misplaced in my opinion, hardcodes aria-* into Firefox ←

08:23:22 <Steven> ... and can only be fixed in a future non-point revision of Firefox

... and can only be fixed in a future non-point revision of Firefox ←

08:23:24 <ShaneM> zakim, what is the code

Shane McCarron: zakim, what is the code ←

08:23:24 <Zakim> I don't understand 'what is the code', ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'what is the code', ShaneM ←

08:23:44 <Steven> xhtml shan

xhtml shan ←

08:23:45 <Steven> e

e ←

08:24:02 <Steven> Gregory: Does this effect the XML serialization?

Gregory Rosmaita: Does this effect the XML serialization? ←

08:24:08 <ShaneM> cant wake up enough to remember the phone number....

Shane McCarron: cant wake up enough to remember the phone number.... ←

08:24:09 <Steven> ... I would like namespacing everywhere

... I would like namespacing everywhere ←

08:24:36 <Steven> Gregory: The TAG doesn't like aria-*, but was willing to live with it

Gregory Rosmaita: The TAG doesn't like aria-*, but was willing to live with it ←

08:24:58 <Steven> ... without setting precedent, they allowed aria-* for HTML5

... without setting precedent, they allowed aria-* for HTML5 ←

08:25:15 <Steven> ... but scripting is going to be different either way

... but scripting is going to be different either way ←

08:25:33 <Steven> ... there is a plan for a meeting with the HTML5 people

... there is a plan for a meeting with the HTML5 people ←

08:25:35 <Zakim> +ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM ←

08:27:00 <Steven> Roland: A related question

Roland Merrick: A related question ←

08:27:08 <Steven> .. there is an example in XHTML

.. there is an example in XHTML ←

08:27:12 <Roland> XHTML example: span class="checkbox"  id="chbox1" role="checkbox" aria-checked="true" tabindex="0"

Roland Merrick: XHTML example: span class="checkbox" id="chbox1" role="checkbox" aria-checked="true" tabindex="0" ←

08:28:02 <Steven> ... that is XHTML, what is the equivalent in HTML5

... that is XHTML, what is the equivalent in HTML5? ←

08:28:13 <Steven> s/5/5?/

08:28:50 <Steven> .. all the examples are different

.. all the examples are different ←

08:28:57 <Steven> Gregory: That is part of the problem

Gregory Rosmaita: That is part of the problem ←

08:29:10 <Steven> ... there is a difference in how HTML5 and XHTML treat role

... there is a difference in how HTML5 and XHTML treat role ←

08:29:22 <Steven> Roland: I don't really understand the proposal properly

Roland Merrick: I don't really understand the proposal properly ←

08:30:10 <Steven> ... until I can see the same example in each language next to each other

... until I can see the same example in each language next to each other ←

08:30:28 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Jun/att-0048/nameFromProposal.html#implementation

Gregory Rosmaita: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Jun/att-0048/nameFromProposal.html#implementation ←

08:30:34 <Steven> Roles use a special-purpose "role" (CMN: should this be aria-role?) attribute whose value is the name of the role.

Roles use a special-purpose "role" (CMN: should this be aria-role?) attribute whose value is the name of the role. ←

08:31:54 <Steven> Shane: One of the many possible uses of role is classifying an element

Shane McCarron: One of the many possible uses of role is classifying an element ←

08:33:03 <Steven> Roland: So I would like to see examples comapring them

Roland Merrick: So I would like to see examples comparing them ←

08:33:13 <Steven> s/comap/compa/

08:34:45 <oedipus> SP: as far as i can see, one ramification of TAG decision vis a vis aria dash is that we have the worst of all possible worlds; aria- rather than aria: disappears; consistency across HTML and XHTML - just as difficult to code in javascript, HTML and XHTML because have to use diff ways of writing diff things

Steven Pemberton: as far as i can see, one ramification of TAG decision vis a vis aria dash is that we have the worst of all possible worlds; aria- rather than aria: disappears; consistency across HTML and XHTML - just as difficult to code in javascript, HTML and XHTML because have to use diff ways of writing diff things [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

08:35:02 <oedipus> SM: made proposal that all aria- and be done with it

Shane McCarron: made proposal that all aria- and be done with it [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

08:35:41 <oedipus> RM: aria- just as other dash

Roland Merrick: aria- just as other dash [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

08:35:58 <oedipus> SP: both syntax forms used -- dash and colon

Steven Pemberton: both syntax forms used -- dash and colon [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

08:36:16 <alessio> hi all

Alessio Cartocci: hi all ←

08:36:37 <Steven> Shane: My proposal is to use aria-* everywhere

Shane McCarron: My proposal is to use aria-* everywhere ←

08:36:39 <oedipus> SM: proposed no aria: - collection of aria dash

Shane McCarron: proposed no aria: - collection of aria dash [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

08:36:59 <Steven> Gregory: Rich accepts the TAG decision

Gregory Rosmaita: Rich accepts the TAG decision ←

08:37:22 <Steven> Roland: What was the decision for SVG?

Roland Merrick: What was the decision for SVG? ←

08:37:27 <Steven> Gregory: Still being negotiated

Gregory Rosmaita: Still being negotiated ←

08:37:54 <Steven> ... HTML5 aren't really interested in coming to a compromise

... HTML5 aren't really interested in coming to a compromise ←

08:38:21 <Steven> Roland: We have a mess as it is

Roland Merrick: We have a mess as it is ←

08:38:44 <Steven> ... we can't create a clean version for the future if we don't use the mechanisms that exist

... we can't create a clean version for the future if we don't use the mechanisms that exist ←

08:39:12 <Steven> Gregory: The effort is being driven by the implementors

Gregory Rosmaita: The effort is being driven by the implementors ←

08:39:17 <Steven> ... rather than the community

... rather than the community ←

08:39:33 <Steven> Roland: But then the authors pay the price

Roland Merrick: But then the authors pay the price ←

08:39:39 <Steven> Gregory: Yes

Gregory Rosmaita: Yes ←

08:39:48 <Steven> ... it is very short sighted

... it is very short sighted ←

08:39:59 <Roland> I would suggest that for XHTML, HTML and SVG you add the same to an element, e.g. -- class="checkbox"  id="chbox1" role="checkbox" aria-checked="true" tabindex="0" --

Roland Merrick: I would suggest that for XHTML, HTML and SVG you add the same to an element, e.g. -- class="checkbox" id="chbox1" role="checkbox" aria-checked="true" tabindex="0" -- ←

08:40:03 <Steven> Present: ROland, Gregory, Steven, Tina, Alessio

08:40:07 <Steven> s/RO/Ro/

08:40:18 <Steven> Present+Yam

Present+Yam ←

08:40:25 <Steven> Present+Shane

Present+Shane ←

08:40:36 <Steven> Yam: A question.

Scribe problem: the name 'Yam' does not match any of the 8 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Roland Merrick Gregory Rosmaita Steven Pemberton Tina Holmboe Alessio Cartocci Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Yam: A question. ←

08:41:11 <Steven> ... for consistency, we are using aria-*, and so we have to accept the non-namespace?

... for consistency, we are using aria-*, and so we have to accept the non-namespace? ←

08:41:56 <Steven> Gregory: Yes

Gregory Rosmaita: Yes ←

08:42:18 <Tina> Could someone please remind me of the phone #?

Tina Holmboe: Could someone please remind me of the phone #? ←

08:42:19 <Steven> Steven: So this means that aria-* are chameleon, just the name identifies it

Steven Pemberton: So this means that aria-* are chameleon, just the name identifies it ←

08:42:26 <Steven> zakim, code?

zakim, code? ←

08:42:26 <Zakim> the conference code is 94865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 94865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Steven ←

08:42:28 <oedipus> string literal

Gregory Rosmaita: string literal ←

08:42:53 <Tina> Thank you, Steven.

Tina Holmboe: Thank you, Steven. ←

08:43:37 <oedipus> RM: this is it in our schema (SVG as well) - literal set of characters mean something

Roland Merrick: this is it in our schema (SVG as well) - literal set of characters mean something [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

08:43:51 <oedipus> SM: same as class treatment in some contexts

Scribe problem: the name 'SM' does not match any of the 8 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Roland Merrick Gregory Rosmaita Steven Pemberton Tina Holmboe Alessio Cartocci Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown SM: same as class treatment in some contexts [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

08:43:52 <Steven> Shane: Class is like this too

Scribe problem: the name 'Shane' does not match any of the 8 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Roland Merrick Gregory Rosmaita Steven Pemberton Tina Holmboe Alessio Cartocci Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Shane: Class is like this too ←

08:44:14 <Steven> Gregory: I will follow up with SVG to find out what the status is

Gregory Rosmaita: I will follow up with SVG to find out what the status is ←

08:44:21 <Zakim> + +04670855aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +04670855aaaa ←

08:44:34 <Steven> zakim, aaaa is Tina

zakim, aaaa is Tina ←

08:44:34 <Zakim> +Tina; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Tina; got it ←

08:45:33 <Steven> Roland: So the validator has to accept different things

Roland Merrick: So the validator has to accept different things ←

08:46:02 <Steven> Shane: Do you expect aria-* to expand in a future spec?

Unknown Shane: Do you expect aria-* to expand in a future spec? ←

08:46:06 <Steven> Gregory: Yes

Gregory Rosmaita: Yes ←

08:46:46 <Steven> ... we are not being treated like a module; we are being swallowed whole

... we are not being treated like a module; we are being swallowed whole ←

08:47:03 <Steven> Shane: Like role

Unknown Shane: Like role ←

08:47:14 <Steven> Steven: And MathML and SVG by the looks too

Steven Pemberton: And MathML and SVG by the looks too ←

08:49:05 <oedipus> RM: what we want is for authors used to writing aria-foo use same syntax no matter what

Roland Merrick: what we want is for authors used to writing aria-foo use same syntax no matter what [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

08:49:07 <Steven> Roland: If authors are used to aria-*, then it should be the same in all languages, regardless how stupid that is

Roland Merrick: If authors are used to aria-*, then it should be the same in all languages, regardless how stupid that is ←

08:50:33 <oedipus> HTML = getAttribute versus namespaced aria = getNSAttribute

Gregory Rosmaita: HTML = getAttribute versus namespaced aria = getNSAttribute ←

08:51:55 <oedipus> GJR agrees strongly with steven - shortsighted decision

Gregory Rosmaita: GJR agrees strongly with steven - shortsighted decision ←

08:53:06 <Steven> Steven: This pulls the rug from under the feet of the accessibility community

Steven Pemberton: This pulls the rug from under the feet of the accessibility community ←

08:53:39 <Steven> ... it prevents them using aria in any languages except for the ones that have explicitely adopted the attributes

... it prevents them using aria in any languages except for the ones that have explicitely adopted the attributes ←

08:53:54 <Steven> .. wheras the extensibility of XML should allow them to be used everywhere

.. whereas the extensibility of XML should allow them to be used everywhere ←

08:54:02 <Steven> s/wheras/whereas/

08:54:12 <oedipus> a model of how not to draft a spec - compromised colon because of IE6, aria dash adapted by fiat by FF3 - decisions being driven by implementation

Gregory Rosmaita: a model of how not to draft a spec - compromised colon because of IE6, aria dash adapted by fiat by FF3 - decisions being driven by implementation ←

08:54:33 <Steven> Roland: How should we react

Roland Merrick: How should we react? ←

08:54:38 <Steven> s/react/react?/

08:55:18 <oedipus> GJR would like to know what the TAG expects to happen after this "once-off" exception

Gregory Rosmaita: GJR would like to know what the TAG expects to happen after this "once-off" exception ←

08:55:19 <Steven> Shane: I thought we'd already decided

Unknown Shane: I thought we'd already decided ←

08:55:56 <Steven> Roland: We are looking out for the authors

Roland Merrick: We are looking out for the authors ←

08:56:21 <Steven> ... so that should drive our decision

... so that should drive our decision ←

08:56:50 <Steven> Yam: We should say that we support the authors and use aria-*

Unknown Yam: We should say that we support the authors and use aria-* ←

08:56:51 <oedipus> thank you roland for taking a firm stance -- that is one thing that has been lacking from others (XHTML2 WG has always been aria's best friend)

Gregory Rosmaita: thank you roland for taking a firm stance -- that is one thing that has been lacking from others (XHTML2 WG has always been aria's best friend) ←

08:58:02 <Steven> Roland: We have to stand up for the rights of the author

Roland Merrick: We have to stand up for the rights of the author ←

08:58:36 <Steven> ... I will draft something short and we can discuss it later this week

... I will draft something short and we can discuss it later this week ←

08:59:24 <oedipus> thank you very much roland

Gregory Rosmaita: thank you very much roland ←

08:59:37 <alessio> Roland: +1

Roland Merrick: +1 [ Scribe Assist by Alessio Cartocci ] ←

08:59:46 <Zakim> -ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: -ShaneM ←

08:59:49 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita

Zakim IRC Bot: -Gregory_Rosmaita ←

08:59:54 <Zakim> -Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven ←

08:59:55 <Zakim> -Tina

Zakim IRC Bot: -Tina ←

08:59:58 <Zakim> -Yam

Zakim IRC Bot: -Yam ←

08:59:58 <Steven> == BREAK ==

1.1. BREAK ==

09:00:24 <Steven> === Return at **:15 ===

1.1.1. Return at **:15 ===

09:01:59 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

Gregory Rosmaita: rrsagent, make minutes ←

09:01:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

09:02:02 <Steven> back at **:15

back at **:15 ←

09:05:15 <markbirbeck> Thanks...not sure how much I can join though, due to ongoing problems that have to be sorted out.

Scribe problem: the name 'markbirbeck' does not match any of the 8 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Roland Merrick Gregory Rosmaita Steven Pemberton Tina Holmboe Alessio Cartocci Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown markbirbeck: Thanks...not sure how much I can join though, due to ongoing problems that have to be sorted out. ←

09:16:00 <oedipus> FYI from: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Jun/att-0048/nameFromProposal.html#implementation

(No events recorded for 10 minutes)

Gregory Rosmaita: FYI from: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Jun/att-0048/nameFromProposal.html#implementation ←

09:16:00 <oedipus> Note: ARIA roles are in the namespace of the rest of the document, if defined, and do not require a namespace prefix. If other roles are provided in the role attribute, they MUST have namespace prefixes. The namespace prefixes are not processed as namespaces per se but serve to distinguish non-ARIA roles.

Scribe problem: the name 'Note' does not match any of the 8 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Roland Merrick Gregory Rosmaita Steven Pemberton Tina Holmboe Alessio Cartocci Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Note: ARIA roles are in the namespace of the rest of the document, if defined, and do not require a namespace prefix. If other roles are provided in the role attribute, they MUST have namespace prefixes. The namespace prefixes are not processed as namespaces per se but serve to distinguish non-ARIA roles. [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

09:16:00 <oedipus> Each ARIA state and property is represented with its own attribute. The state and property attributes are in no namespace, meaning the attributes are implemented without namespace qualifiers like other attributes of the host language. To minimize the chance of conflict with attribute names defined in the host language, the attribute name for each state and property is the prefix "aria-" plus the name of the state or property. For example, the attribute name

Gregory Rosmaita: Each ARIA state and property is represented with its own attribute. The state and property attributes are in no namespace, meaning the attributes are implemented without namespace qualifiers like other attributes of the host language. To minimize the chance of conflict with attribute names defined in the host language, the attribute name for each state and property is the prefix "aria-" plus the name of the state or property. For example, the attribute name ←

09:16:03 <oedipus> Note: In most cases, the attributes required to represent the ARIA states and properties are not defined in the host language. The role attribute may also not be defined. If the host language does not provide an extensibility mechanism, documents that implement ARIA in this manner will not pass DTD-based validation. However, user agents that conform to ARIA will process such documents.

Unknown Note: In most cases, the attributes required to represent the ARIA states and properties are not defined in the host language. The role attribute may also not be defined. If the host language does not provide an extensibility mechanism, documents that implement ARIA in this manner will not pass DTD-based validation. However, user agents that conform to ARIA will process such documents. [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

09:16:08 <oedipus> Editorial note: we are exploring mechanisms to provide automated conformance checking for documents that include ARIA. This might be provided informatively as a tool, and conformance checking with it is not required. Providing an unofficial version of the HTML DTD with ARIA support added to drive existing validators might be useful as well.

Gregory Rosmaita: Editorial note: we are exploring mechanisms to provide automated conformance checking for documents that include ARIA. This might be provided informatively as a tool, and conformance checking with it is not required. Providing an unofficial version of the HTML DTD with ARIA support added to drive existing validators might be useful as well. ←

09:17:56 <Tina> An exception to existing specifications, in other words?

Tina Holmboe: An exception to existing specifications, in other words? ←

09:18:55 <ShaneM> omw

Scribe problem: the name 'ShaneM' does not match any of the 8 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Roland Merrick Gregory Rosmaita Steven Pemberton Tina Holmboe Alessio Cartocci Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown ShaneM: omw ←

09:19:01 <yamx> I am here, but not called in yet.

Scribe problem: the name 'yamx' does not match any of the 8 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Roland Merrick Gregory Rosmaita Steven Pemberton Tina Holmboe Alessio Cartocci Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown yamx: I am here, but not called in yet. ←

09:19:10 <Steven> zakim, who is here?

zakim, who is here? ←

09:19:10 <Zakim> On the phone I see Roland

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Roland ←

09:19:11 <Zakim> On IRC I see yamx, markbirbeck, Lachy, alessio, Tina, Steven, oedipus, RRSAgent, Zakim, Roland, deane, ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see yamx, markbirbeck, Lachy, alessio, Tina, Steven, oedipus, RRSAgent, Zakim, Roland, deane, ShaneM ←

09:19:20 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617

zakim, dial steven-617 ←

09:19:20 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; the call is being made ←

09:19:21 <Zakim> -Roland

Zakim IRC Bot: -Roland ←

09:19:21 <Zakim> +Roland

Zakim IRC Bot: +Roland ←

09:19:22 <Zakim> +Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven ←

09:19:55 <Zakim> +ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM ←

09:20:18 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita

Zakim IRC Bot: +Gregory_Rosmaita ←

09:20:22 <Zakim> +??P4

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P4 ←

09:20:32 <yamx> Zakim, ??P4 is yamx

Unknown yamx: Zakim, ??P4 is yamx ←

09:20:32 <Zakim> +yamx; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +yamx; got it ←

09:20:33 <Zakim> +Tina

Zakim IRC Bot: +Tina ←

09:20:44 <oedipus> FYI: mark checked in, but his participation may be limited

Scribe problem: the name 'FYI' does not match any of the 8 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Roland Merrick Gregory Rosmaita Steven Pemberton Tina Holmboe Alessio Cartocci Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown FYI: mark checked in, but his participation may be limited [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

09:21:12 <ShaneM> zakim, who is here?

Unknown ShaneM: zakim, who is here? ←

09:21:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see Roland, Steven, ShaneM, Gregory_Rosmaita, yamx, Tina

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Roland, Steven, ShaneM, Gregory_Rosmaita, yamx, Tina ←

09:21:14 <Zakim> On IRC I see yamx, markbirbeck, Lachy, alessio, Tina, Steven, oedipus, RRSAgent, Zakim, Roland, deane, ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see yamx, markbirbeck, Lachy, alessio, Tina, Steven, oedipus, RRSAgent, Zakim, Roland, deane, ShaneM ←

09:21:14 <Steven> Topic: Reviews

2. XML Base Review

09:21:24 <Steven> Roland: XML Base

Roland Merrick: XML Base ←

09:21:46 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jun/0036.html

Gregory Rosmaita: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jun/0036.html ←

09:21:54 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Jun/0018.html

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Jun/0018.html ←

09:22:18 <oedipus> SP: 4 comments

Steven Pemberton: 4 comments [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

09:23:08 <oedipus> SP: first, change in XML Base is change from URI to "legacy extended IRI" -- increases number of chars that can appear in URI (includes diff charsets) -- IRIs for authoring, job of UA to encode when sending over the wire

Steven Pemberton: first, change in XML Base is change from URI to "legacy extended IRI" -- increases number of chars that can appear in URI (includes diff charsets) -- IRIs for authoring, job of UA to encode when sending over the wire [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

09:23:19 <oedipus> SP: side-note: what we say about CURIEs

Steven Pemberton: side-note: what we say about CURIEs [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

09:23:55 <oedipus> SP: IRI can include chars not allowed in XML -- namely, control characters -- that should be pointed out

Steven Pemberton: IRI can include chars not allowed in XML -- namely, control characters -- that should be pointed out [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

09:24:02 <oedipus> SM: IRI can contain control char?

Unknown SM: IRI can contain control char? [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

09:24:24 <oedipus> SM: fascinating...

Unknown SM: fascinating... [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

09:26:14 <oedipus> SP: second: if an app is going to use XML Base (is a PER and not a new edition) - diff by the way how apps perform; actually effects normative reqs because if say XML Base is some IRI with "international characters" in them, all URIs in doc effectively become IRIs into bargin (turns all URIs to IRIs) - consuming app must know about IRIs, but can't send over wire; comment: this should be pointed out, can't take existing app and claim use XML Base PER because

Steven Pemberton: second: if an app is going to use XML Base (is a PER and not a new edition) - diff by the way how apps perform; actually effects normative reqs because if say XML Base is some IRI with "international characters" in them, all URIs in doc effectively become IRIs into bargin (turns all URIs to IRIs) - consuming app must know about IRIs, but can't send over wire; comment: this should be pointed out, can't take existing app and claim use XML Base PER because [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

09:26:38 <oedipus> SP: being nice by saying this isn't a PER -- not just clarification; affects normative reqs

Steven Pemberton: being nice by saying this isn't a PER -- not just clarification; affects normative reqs [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

09:27:26 <oedipus> SP: next comment: what XML Base actually applies to; URIs everywhere, but take CURIEs -- not URIs; if had attribute for CURIE gets expanded into a URI, so does XML Base apply to it? not clear what allowed to apply

Steven Pemberton: next comment: what XML Base actually applies to; URIs everywhere, but take CURIEs -- not URIs; if had attribute for CURIE gets expanded into a URI, so does XML Base apply to it? not clear what allowed to apply [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

09:27:34 <oedipus> SP: no example using IRI

Steven Pemberton: no example using IRI [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

09:28:18 <oedipus> SP: list of changes - def of URI ref changed from one RFC to another, but couldn't confirm that is the case (RFC 2396 to RFC 2386)

Steven Pemberton: list of changes - def of URI ref changed from one RFC to another, but couldn't confirm that is the case (RFC 2396 to RFC 2386) [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

09:28:35 <oedipus> SP: summary: new XML Base just says base URI is IRI - main functional diff

Steven Pemberton: summary: new XML Base just says base URI is IRI - main functional diff [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

09:28:54 <Roland> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3987.txt

Roland Merrick: http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3987.txt ←

09:29:04 <oedipus> RM: RFC 3987 - defines IRIs

Roland Merrick: RFC 3987 - defines IRIs [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

09:29:13 <oedipus> RM: RFC 3986 - defines URIs

Roland Merrick: RFC 3986 - defines URIs [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

09:29:16 <Roland> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3986.txt

Roland Merrick: http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3986.txt ←

09:29:50 <oedipus> SP: wish ietf would use XHTML

Steven Pemberton: wish ietf would use XHTML [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

09:30:01 <oedipus> GJR: effort to get ietf to do that

Gregory Rosmaita: effort to get ietf to do that [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

09:30:22 <oedipus> SP: looks as if should be pointing to 87 not 86

Steven Pemberton: looks as if should be pointing to 87 not 86 [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

09:30:50 <oedipus> SP: definition of "legacy IRI" can't find in document

Steven Pemberton: definition of "legacy IRI" can't find in document [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

09:31:16 <oedipus> SP: LEIRI (legacy extended IRI)

Steven Pemberton: LEIRI (legacy extended IRI) [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

09:31:50 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/PER-xmlbase-20080320/

http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/PER-xmlbase-20080320/ ←

09:31:50 <oedipus> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-duerst-iri-bis-02.txt

Gregory Rosmaita: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-duerst-iri-bis-02.txt ←

09:32:01 <oedipus> The syntax of Legacy Extended IRIs is the same as that

Gregory Rosmaita: The syntax of Legacy Extended IRIs is the same as that ←

09:32:01 <oedipus> for IRIs, except that ucschar is redefined....

Gregory Rosmaita: for IRIs, except that ucschar is redefined.... ←

09:32:42 <Steven> This PER normatively references the draft of a replacement to RFC 3987 (here called RFC 3987 bis) for the definition of the term Legacy Extended IRI. It will not advance to Recommendation status until the replacement RFC is published, and the reference will be updated accordingly.

This PER normatively references the draft of a replacement to RFC 3987 (here called RFC 3987 bis) for the definition of the term Legacy Extended IRI. It will not advance to Recommendation status until the replacement RFC is published, and the reference will be updated accordingly. ←

09:33:14 <oedipus> SP: do intend to reference LEIRI when ready

Steven Pemberton: do intend to reference LEIRI when ready [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

09:33:19 <oedipus> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-duerst-iri-bis-02.txt

Gregory Rosmaita: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-duerst-iri-bis-02.txt ←

09:33:47 <oedipus> RM: agree with SP's comments, except think a change too far to be a second edition

Roland Merrick: agree with SP's comments, except think a change too far to be a second edition [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

09:33:59 <oedipus> SP: consulting minutes of XForms meeting

Steven Pemberton: consulting minutes of XForms meeting [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

09:34:32 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/process.html#correction-classes

http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/process.html#correction-classes ←

09:35:15 <oedipus> SP: type 3 - Corrections that MAY affect conformance, but add no new features

Steven Pemberton: type 3 - Corrections that MAY affect conformance, but add no new features [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

09:35:15 <oedipus> These changes MAY affect conformance to the Recommendation. A change that affects conformance is one that:

Gregory Rosmaita: These changes MAY affect conformance to the Recommendation. A change that affects conformance is one that: ←

09:35:15 <oedipus> 1. turns conforming data, processors, or other conforming agents into non-conforming agents, or

Gregory Rosmaita: 1. turns conforming data, processors, or other conforming agents into non-conforming agents, or ←

09:35:15 <oedipus> 2. turns non-conforming agents into conforming ones, or

Gregory Rosmaita: 2. turns non-conforming agents into conforming ones, or ←

09:35:15 <oedipus> 3. clears up an ambiguity or under-specified part of the specification in such a way that an agent whose conformance was once unclear becomes clearly conforming or non-conforming.

Gregory Rosmaita: 3. clears up an ambiguity or under-specified part of the specification in such a way that an agent whose conformance was once unclear becomes clearly conforming or non-conforming. ←

09:35:43 <oedipus> RM: correction through extension

Roland Merrick: correction through extension [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

09:35:54 <oedipus> RM: waiting for new LEIRI RFC

Roland Merrick: waiting for new LEIRI RFC [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

09:36:18 <oedipus> SP: W3C process does support making XML Base an edited rec

Steven Pemberton: W3C process does support making XML Base an edited rec [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

09:36:39 <Steven> Shane: I'm not sure that this makes it legitimate

Unknown Shane: I'm not sure that this makes it legitimate ←

09:36:48 <oedipus> SM: not sure lends any serious legitimacy - changing normative req which changes conformance

Unknown SM: not sure lends any serious legitimacy - changing normative req which changes conformance [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

09:36:57 <Steven> ... a conforming app will now not conform

... a conforming app will now not conform ←

09:37:25 <Steven> "For the third class of change, W3C requires:

"For the third class of change, W3C requires: ←

09:37:25 <Steven> Review by the community to ensure the technical soundness of proposed corrections.

Review by the community to ensure the technical soundness of proposed corrections. ←

09:37:25 <Steven> Timely publication of the edited Recommendation, with corrections incorporated."

Timely publication of the edited Recommendation, with corrections incorporated." ←

09:37:27 <oedipus> RM: can hand over to w3c legal-lawyers, but in favor of making comment that this goes too far - they can decide if it does or not

Roland Merrick: can hand over to w3c legal-lawyers, but in favor of making comment that this goes too far - they can decide if it does or not [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

09:37:40 <Steven> Rolnad: I would like to comment that we think this is too much for a PER

Roland Merrick: I would like to comment that we think this is too much for a PER ←

09:37:52 <Steven> s/Rolnad/Roland/

09:38:11 <oedipus> SM: given what SteveB said about Basic in transition call, this wouldn't pass muster - couldn't do XHTML 1.1 as PER if adding target module - same type of change

Unknown SM: given what SteveB said about Basic in transition call, this wouldn't pass muster - couldn't do XHTML 1.1 as PER if adding target module - same type of change [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

09:38:23 <Steven> Shane: We were told we couldn't do XHTML 1.1 as a PER if we were adding the target attribute

Unknown Shane: We were told we couldn't do XHTML 1.1 as a PER if we were adding the target attribute ←

09:38:30 <Steven> ... which is a similar change

... which is a similar change ←

09:39:06 <oedipus> GJR plus one to roland's comment

Gregory Rosmaita: GJR plus one to roland's comment ←

09:39:22 <Steven> Steven: Well then we should make that comment

Steven Pemberton: Well then we should make that comment ←

09:39:41 <oedipus> RM: simply say take same view as XForms group, but in addition goes step too far to be considered second edition

Roland Merrick: simply say take same view as XForms group, but in addition goes step too far to be considered second edition [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

09:39:48 <Steven> Roland: I would like to endorse the comments made by the Forms WG, but add this extra comment

Roland Merrick: I would like to endorse the comments made by the Forms WG, but add this extra comment ←

09:40:16 <Steven> Shane: Agree

Unknown Shane: Agree ←

09:40:25 <oedipus> GJR plus 1

Gregory Rosmaita: GJR plus 1 ←

09:40:44 <Steven> Yam: I agree

Unknown Yam: I agree ←

09:41:19 <oedipus> zakim, choose a victim

Gregory Rosmaita: zakim, choose a victim ←

09:41:19 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Tina

Zakim IRC Bot: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Tina ←

09:41:48 <Steven> ACTION: Roland to send reply on XML Base supporting Forms WG comments, and objecting to PER

ACTION: Roland to send reply on XML Base supporting Forms WG comments, and objecting to PER ←

09:42:01 <oedipus> rrsagent, draft minutes

Gregory Rosmaita: rrsagent, draft minutes ←

09:42:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

09:42:04 <alessio> +1

Alessio Cartocci: +1 ←

09:42:24 <Steven> Topic: XHR review

3. XHR review

09:42:43 <Steven> s/Topic: Reviews/Topic: XML Base Review/

09:42:53 <Roland> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jun/0041.html

Roland Merrick: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jun/0041.html ←

09:43:11 <Tina> Steven: here only, I hope, 'cause I didn't hear a word on the phone ... :)

Steven Pemberton: here only, I hope, 'cause I didn't hear a word on the phone ... :) [ Scribe Assist by Tina Holmboe ] ←

09:44:12 <Steven> Shane: I tried to focus our response

Unknown Shane: I tried to focus our response ←

09:44:20 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jun/0031.html

Gregory Rosmaita: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jun/0031.html ←

09:44:41 <oedipus> "Basically, the XHTML 2 Working Group is concerned that the draft appears

Gregory Rosmaita: "Basically, the XHTML 2 Working Group is concerned that the draft appears ←

09:44:41 <oedipus> to have a dependency on HTML5. On closer inspection, it is not clear

Gregory Rosmaita: to have a dependency on HTML5. On closer inspection, it is not clear ←

09:44:41 <oedipus> whether this dependency is completely necessary. Further, linking the

Gregory Rosmaita: whether this dependency is completely necessary. Further, linking the ←

09:44:41 <oedipus> spec to HTML5 will delay its deployment and incorporation into other

Gregory Rosmaita: spec to HTML5 will delay its deployment and incorporation into other ←

09:44:41 <oedipus> languages that have a vested interest in portable scripting (e.g. XHTML

Gregory Rosmaita: languages that have a vested interest in portable scripting (e.g. XHTML ←

09:44:42 <oedipus> 1, XHTML 2, XForms). Finally, it appears that the dependecy is

Gregory Rosmaita: 1, XHTML 2, XForms). Finally, it appears that the dependecy is ←

09:44:44 <oedipus> slightly backwards, since the requirement is that HTML5's document

Gregory Rosmaita: slightly backwards, since the requirement is that HTML5's document ←

09:44:46 <oedipus> "Window" object support the XMLHttpRequest interface. Our request is

Gregory Rosmaita: "Window" object support the XMLHttpRequest interface. Our request is ←

09:44:48 <oedipus> that this dependency be removed (or that the connection be made

Gregory Rosmaita: that this dependency be removed (or that the connection be made ←

09:44:50 <oedipus> informative instead of normative) so that all interested constituents

Gregory Rosmaita: informative instead of normative) so that all interested constituents ←

09:44:52 <oedipus> can take advantage of this important interface as soon as possible.

Gregory Rosmaita: can take advantage of this important interface as soon as possible. ←

09:44:54 <oedipus> "

Gregory Rosmaita: " ←

09:45:08 <Steven> Shane: iS THIS RESPONSE FROM THE html5 wg?

Unknown Shane: Is this a response from the HTML5 WG? ←

09:45:11 <Steven> rOLAND: nOT CLEAR

Roland Merrick: Not clear ←

09:45:39 <Steven> s/ iS THIS RESPONSE FROM THE html5 wg?/Is this a response from the HTML5 WG?/

09:46:18 <Steven> s/rOLAND: nOT CLEAR/Roland: Not clear/

09:46:29 <Steven> Gregory: He does tend to respond for himself

Gregory Rosmaita: He does tend to respond for himself ←

09:46:43 <oedipus> deployment by fiat

Gregory Rosmaita: deployment by fiat ←

09:47:43 <oedipus> unhelpful link to public archive provided in AVK response: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapi/

Gregory Rosmaita: unhelpful link to public archive provided in AVK response: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapi/ ←

09:48:54 <Steven> Shane: Maybe I wans't clear enough when I talked about incorporating in l;anguages

Unknown Shane: Maybe I wasn't clear enough when I talked about incorporating in l;anguages ←

09:48:59 <Steven> Steven: I think you ewre

Steven Pemberton: I think you were ←

09:49:03 <Steven> s/ewre/were/

09:49:15 <Steven> s/wans/wasn/

09:49:29 <oedipus> GJR notes that AVK uses pronoun: "me"

Gregory Rosmaita: GJR notes that AVK uses pronoun: "me" ←

09:51:25 <oedipus> SP: keep up our end of this, and let them do what they want to do

Tina Holmboe: keep up our end of this, and let them do what they want to do [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

09:51:34 <Steven> s/SP/Tina/

09:51:42 <oedipus> SM: law isn't a sword, but a shield; use process as shield if being attacked

Unknown SM: law isn't a sword, but a shield; use process as shield if being attacked [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

09:52:02 <alessio> yes Steven, I think it's the right thing to do

Alessio Cartocci: yes Steven, I think it's the right thing to do ←

09:52:21 <Steven> Tina: I think we should follow process

Tina Holmboe: I think we should follow process ←

09:52:52 <Steven> ... of course we don't want to aggrevate them, but process is what we use in W3C

... of course we don't want to aggrevate them, but process is what we use in W3C ←

09:53:10 <oedipus> RM: need to make clear what is required - can't say "HTML5, figure it out yourself"

Roland Merrick: need to make clear what is required - can't say "HTML5, figure it out yourself" [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

09:53:10 <alessio> yes

Alessio Cartocci: yes ←

09:53:25 <Steven> Shane: I don't believe that there are HTML5 concepts that are used by this spec

Unknown Shane: I don't believe that there are HTML5 concepts that are used by this spec ←

09:53:40 <Steven> ... and if there are, they should be incorporated into this spec

... and if there are, they should be incorporated into this spec ←

09:54:09 <Steven> Steven: I don't mind taking the action item to reply

Steven Pemberton: I don't mind taking the action item to reply ←

09:54:43 <Steven> Yam: I am curious what the other dependencies are

Unknown Yam: I am curious what the other dependencies are ←

09:55:02 <Steven> ACTION: Steven to reply to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jun/0041.html

ACTION: Steven to reply to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jun/0041.html ←

09:55:18 <oedipus> rrsagent, draft minutes

Gregory Rosmaita: rrsagent, draft minutes ←

09:55:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

09:55:54 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2006/appformats/

Gregory Rosmaita: http://www.w3.org/2006/appformats/ ←

09:56:10 <ShaneM> http://www.w3.org/News/2008#item107

Unknown ShaneM: http://www.w3.org/News/2008#item107 ←

09:56:15 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/

http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/ ←

09:57:08 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/charter/

Gregory Rosmaita: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/charter/ ←

09:58:55 <Steven> Topic: Transitions

4. Transitions

09:59:57 <Steven> Shane: There was a problem, I failed to include the modules in the TR space upload

Unknown Shane: There was a problem, I failed to include the modules in the TR space upload ←

10:00:15 <Steven> ... which was a decision we made years ago

... which was a decision we made years ago ←

10:00:33 <Steven> ... but 1.0 points to the TR space

... but 1.0 points to the TR space ←

10:01:03 <Steven> ... so that broke languages that use M12N

... so that broke languages that use M12N ←

10:01:20 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jun/0046.html

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jun/0046.html ←

10:01:43 <Steven> Shane: IanJ says that we should have a fixed datespace version of our modules, even if we want one outside TR space

Unknown Shane: IanJ says that we should have a fixed datespace version of our modules, even if we want one outside TR space ←

10:02:13 <Steven> ... we should take that seriously

... we should take that seriously ←

10:02:20 <Steven> ... and including modules in datespace

... and including modules in datespace ←

10:02:29 <Steven> ... that don't change under people's feet

... that don't change under people's feet ←

10:02:57 <Steven> ... Ian offered to help me craft language to address that

... Ian offered to help me craft language to address that ←

10:02:57 <oedipus> plus one to Shane's comment: "On a related note, we should consider making the latest version link for

Gregory Rosmaita: plus one to Shane's comment: "On a related note, we should consider making the latest version link for ←

10:02:57 <oedipus> m12n xhtml-modularization1 so that we can start working on

Gregory Rosmaita: m12n xhtml-modularization1 so that we can start working on ←

10:02:57 <oedipus> xhtml-modularization2 and not collide

Gregory Rosmaita: xhtml-modularization2 and not collide ←

10:03:33 <Steven> Shane: Do we agree that we should have a version in datespace as well as in markup area

Unknown Shane: Do we agree that we should have a version in datespace as well as in markup area ←

10:03:46 <oedipus> should ensure we continue to have the flexibility to update our implementations as we find problems with them, as SM wrote

Gregory Rosmaita: should ensure we continue to have the flexibility to update our implementations as we find problems with them, as SM wrote ←

10:05:18 <markbirbeck> Sorry guys...I missed that XHR discussion. I have gone further in this over on the XForms list, and the main point that they are now making is that given the 'cross-domain security' stuff is quite important, they don't want to have to define that in multiple places, in case it gets out of sync. They therefore feel that XHR must depend on the HTML 5 Window object.

Unknown markbirbeck: Sorry guys...I missed that XHR discussion. I have gone further in this over on the XForms list, and the main point that they are now making is that given the 'cross-domain security' stuff is quite important, they don't want to have to define that in multiple places, in case it gets out of sync. They therefore feel that XHR must depend on the HTML 5 Window object. ←

10:05:38 <Steven> Steven: The reason we moved them out of TR space was to allow us to fix errors quickly, not to change them under people's feet

Steven Pemberton: The reason we moved them out of TR space was to allow us to fix errors quickly, not to change them under people's feet ←

10:05:41 <Steven> Shane: Right

Unknown Shane: Right ←

10:06:00 <markbirbeck> AVK did also say in passing that if we wanted something else, we should write our own. I think that's a good suggestion. :)

Unknown markbirbeck: AVK did also say in passing that if we wanted something else, we should write our own. I think that's a good suggestion. :) ←

10:06:03 <Steven> Shane: We have always been careful about changes we make

Unknown Shane: We have always been careful about changes we make ←

10:06:50 <Steven> Shane: I think we should sontinue to have stuff outside of datespace

Unknown Shane: I think we should continue to have stuff outside of datespace ←

10:06:57 <Steven> s/sont/cont/

10:07:06 <markbirbeck> Anyway, upshot is that I think any reply from this group should (a) at least consider the points I'm making on the XForms list, and (b) CC the XForms and SVG lists, since they are also saying that there should not be a dependency on Window.

Unknown markbirbeck: Anyway, upshot is that I think any reply from this group should (a) at least consider the points I'm making on the XForms list, and (b) CC the XForms and SVG lists, since they are also saying that there should not be a dependency on Window. ←

10:07:19 <Steven> Shane: But tell people to use datespace if they need continuity

Unknown Shane: But tell people to use datespace if they need continuity ←

10:07:25 <markbirbeck> Interruption over.

Unknown markbirbeck: Interruption over. ←

10:07:37 <Steven> present+MarkB

present+MarkB ←

10:08:19 <Steven> Steven: Sounds fine, it suits both audiences

Steven Pemberton: Sounds fine, it suits both audiences ←

10:08:27 <oedipus> no objection

Gregory Rosmaita: no objection ←

10:08:27 <Steven> ... a stable version, and an updated one

... a stable version, and an updated one ←

10:09:22 <Steven> Shane: I'm willing to draft a policy

Unknown Shane: I'm willing to draft a policy ←

10:09:29 <oedipus> yes

Gregory Rosmaita: yes ←

10:10:02 <Steven> Shane: And then we should try and work with IanJ to make that a more general policy

Unknown Shane: And then we should try and work with IanJ to make that a more general policy ←

10:11:03 <Steven> Shane: What version of modules should our markup languaes refer to

Unknown Shane: What version of modules should our markup languaes refer to? ←

10:11:19 <Steven> s/to/to?/

10:11:28 <Steven> ... the stable version or the updated version

... the stable version or the updated version ←

10:11:44 <Steven> Shane: XHTML Basic 1.0 did it wrong

Unknown Shane: XHTML Basic 1.0 did it wrong ←

10:11:57 <Steven> ... and used a wrong version of the modules

... and used a wrong version of the modules ←

10:12:09 <Steven> ... which we couldn't fix quickly

... which we couldn't fix quickly ←

10:12:29 <Steven> Yam: Sorry about that

Unknown Yam: Sorry about that ←

10:13:09 <Steven> ... (I was an editor of that spec)

... (I was an editor of that spec) ←

10:14:19 <Steven> Steven: One option is to do the same with drivers as with modules

Steven Pemberton: One option is to do the same with drivers as with modules ←

10:14:45 <Steven> ... a link to a stable version, and a link to a 'corrected' version

... a link to a stable version, and a link to a 'corrected' version ←

10:15:02 <Steven> Shane: In earlier versions we had a version by reference, and a 'flattened'version

Unknown Shane: In earlier versions we had a version by reference, and a 'flattened' version ←

10:15:07 <Steven> ... maybe harder with Schemas

... maybe harder with Schemas ←

10:15:30 <Steven> s/version/ version/

10:15:55 <Steven> Shane: So the latest version would be in markup space?

Unknown Shane: So the latest version would be in markup space? ←

10:16:01 <Steven> Steven: Yes

Steven Pemberton: Yes ←

10:16:55 <Steven> ... we could mirror the errata document with a DTD

... we could mirror the errata document with a DTD ←

10:17:23 <Steven> ... that is later rolled into a datespaced version when the errata are rolled into the spec

... that is later rolled into a datespaced version when the errata are rolled into the spec ←

10:18:10 <Steven> Yam: I prefer to refer to a datespaced version, for safety

Unknown Yam: I prefer to refer to a datespaced version, for safety ←

10:18:18 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2000/12/REC-xhtml-basic-20001219-errata

Gregory Rosmaita: http://www.w3.org/2000/12/REC-xhtml-basic-20001219-errata ←

10:19:13 <oedipus> 20081219 datestamp

Gregory Rosmaita: 20001219 datestamp ←

10:19:25 <oedipus> s/20081219/20001219

10:19:36 <oedipus> Known errors: None at this time.

Gregory Rosmaita: Known errors: None at this time. ←

10:19:48 <Steven> Shane: I think that what we did before was wrong, and datespacing is the correct solution

Unknown Shane: I think that what we did before was wrong, and datespacing is the correct solution ←

10:20:02 <Steven> Shane: Another question

Unknown Shane: Another question ←

10:20:05 <Steven> ... shortnames

... shortnames ←

10:20:24 <Steven> ... Gregory, you said we should introduce a new shortname

... Gregory, you said we should introduce a new shortname ←

10:20:29 <oedipus> GJR: yes, should do NOW

Gregory Rosmaita: yes, should do NOW [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

10:22:11 <Steven> Steven: So M12N refers to the latest version, M12N-2 explicitely refers to V2, and then M12N-1 points to the originbal version

Steven Pemberton: So M12N refers to the latest version, M12N-2 explicitely refers to V2, and then M12N-1 points to the original version ←

10:22:14 <Steven> Shane: Yes

Unknown Shane: Yes ←

10:22:18 <oedipus> amen

Gregory Rosmaita: amen ←

10:22:38 <Steven> s/bal/al/

10:23:16 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2005/05/tr-versions

http://www.w3.org/2005/05/tr-versions ←

10:23:46 <Steven> Steven: This covers the case

Steven Pemberton: This covers the case ←

10:23:52 <Steven> Shane: We should just do it

Unknown Shane: We should just do it ←

10:24:04 <Steven> [General agreement]

[General agreement] ←

10:24:23 <Steven> ACTION: Shane to organise new shortname(s) with IanJ

ACTION: Shane to organise new shortname(s) with IanJ ←

10:24:38 <oedipus> no anchor, but www.w3.org/2005/05/tr-versions addresses short names in "3.2 Latest Version URI Syntax and Short Names"

Gregory Rosmaita: no anchor, but www.w3.org/2005/05/tr-versions addresses short names in "3.2 Latest Version URI Syntax and Short Names" ←

10:25:33 <Steven> Topic: CURIEs last call comments

5. CURIEs last call comments

10:25:38 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minuites

Gregory Rosmaita: rrsagent, make minuites ←

10:25:38 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minuites', oedipus.  Try /msg RRSAgent help

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minuites', oedipus. Try /msg RRSAgent help ←

10:25:42 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

Gregory Rosmaita: rrsagent, make minutes ←

10:25:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

10:26:31 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-curie-20080506/

Gregory Rosmaita: http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-curie-20080506/ ←

10:26:53 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-xml-cg/2008Jun/0004.html

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-xml-cg/2008Jun/0004.html ←

10:27:13 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2008AprJun/0033.html

Gregory Rosmaita: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2008AprJun/0033.html ←

10:29:25 <ShaneM> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/CURIE?user=guest;statetype=-1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

Unknown ShaneM: http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/CURIE?user=guest;statetype=-1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

10:29:26 <Steven> Shane: We had three comments to the mailing list

Unknown Shane: We had three comments to the mailing list ←

10:29:37 <Steven> Steven: Plus the one above to XML CG

Steven Pemberton: Plus the one above to XML CG ←

10:30:03 <Steven> Shane: The above links to all comments, including old ones we have already dealt with

Unknown Shane: The above links to all comments, including old ones we have already dealt with ←

10:30:10 <Steven> ... look for the three with no resolutions

... look for the three with no resolutions ←

10:30:13 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/CURIE?id=8037;user=guest;statetype=-1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

Gregory Rosmaita: http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/CURIE?id=8037;user=guest;statetype=-1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

10:30:22 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/CURIE?id=8039;user=guest;statetype=-1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

Gregory Rosmaita: http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/CURIE?id=8039;user=guest;statetype=-1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

10:30:28 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/CURIE?id=8040;user=guest;statetype=-1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

Gregory Rosmaita: http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/CURIE?id=8040;user=guest;statetype=-1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

10:30:36 <Steven> Shane: 8037 is just editorial, he's right, accept

Unknown Shane: 8037 is just editorial, he's right, accept ←

10:30:53 <Steven> Shane: 8039

Unknown Shane: 8039 ←

10:30:58 <Steven> ... from XForms

... from XForms ←

10:31:37 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2008AprJun/0041.html

Gregory Rosmaita: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2008AprJun/0041.html ←

10:31:58 <Steven> Steven: They have use cases where they will use CURIEs

Steven Pemberton: They have use cases where they will use CURIEs ←

10:32:05 <oedipus> "In XForms, one candidate for use of CURIE is the appearance attribute, which is presently defined as a union of three enumeration values (minimal, compact, full) with the the set of qualified-names containing colons (qname-but-not-ncname)."

Gregory Rosmaita: "In XForms, one candidate for use of CURIE is the appearance attribute, which is presently defined as a union of three enumeration values (minimal, compact, full) with the the set of qualified-names containing colons (qname-but-not-ncname)." ←

10:32:05 <Steven> ... like @appearance

... like @appearance ←

10:32:35 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2002/xforms/vocab

Gregory Rosmaita: http://www.w3.org/2002/xforms/vocab ←

10:32:56 <oedipus> quote: So we suggest normative text be added: "An XML Application SHOULD use namespace prefixes to define CURIE prefixes."

Scribe problem: the name 'quote' does not match any of the 8 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Roland Merrick Gregory Rosmaita Steven Pemberton Tina Holmboe Alessio Cartocci Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown quote: So we suggest normative text be added: "An XML Application SHOULD use namespace prefixes to define CURIE prefixes." [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

10:33:27 <oedipus> "However, not all XML Applcications are namespace-aware so it should not be required to use namespace prefixes to define CURIE prefixes."

Gregory Rosmaita: "However, not all XML Applcications are namespace-aware so it should not be required to use namespace prefixes to define CURIE prefixes." ←

10:33:27 <Steven> Shane: These are great comments, which we should accept

Unknown Shane: These are great comments, which we should accept ←

10:33:38 <Steven> [Agreement]

[Agreement] ←

10:33:47 <Steven> Shane: 8040

Unknown Shane: 8040 ←

10:33:53 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/CURIE?id=8040;user=guest;statetype=-1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

Gregory Rosmaita: http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/CURIE?id=8040;user=guest;statetype=-1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

10:34:04 <Steven> Shane: This is a personal comment, not fromt he TAG

Unknown Shane: This is a personal comment, not fromt he TAG ←

10:34:22 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2008AprJun/0033.html

Gregory Rosmaita: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2008AprJun/0033.html ←

10:34:54 <oedipus> "I would have taken the lexical space of CURIE to be the QName like syntactic form and the value space to be aligned with that of xsd:anyURI. Being told that the lexical space of CURIE is IRI is confusing (to me at least)."

Gregory Rosmaita: "I would have taken the lexical space of CURIE to be the QName like syntactic form and the value space to be aligned with that of xsd:anyURI. Being told that the lexical space of CURIE is IRI is confusing (to me at least)." ←

10:35:28 <oedipus> "However, CURIEs in XML attribute values inherit all the problems of QNames in attribute values in terms of a processors access to prefix mappings and the associated scoping issues. In what way are CURIE's designed to be more suitable as attribute values than QNames? ie. are they subject to the same cautions as QNames in content - and if not why not?"

Gregory Rosmaita: "However, CURIEs in XML attribute values inherit all the problems of QNames in attribute values in terms of a processors access to prefix mappings and the associated scoping issues. In what way are CURIE's designed to be more suitable as attribute values than QNames? ie. are they subject to the same cautions as QNames in content - and if not why not?" ←

10:36:46 <Steven> Shane: QNames have been shoehorned into attributes, that they weren't designed for

Unknown Shane: QNames have been shoehorned into attributes, that they weren't designed for ←

10:37:38 <Steven> ... in contrast, CURIEs are never treated as tuples, but as IRIs

... in contrast, CURIEs are never treated as tuples, but as IRIs ←

10:38:04 <Steven> ... parsers and the DOM won't expand them automatically

... parsers and the DOM won't expand them automatically ←

10:39:08 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/56

Gregory Rosmaita: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/56 ←

10:39:42 <oedipus> tag on CURIE: http://www.w3.org/2008/04/curie.html

Gregory Rosmaita: tag on CURIE: http://www.w3.org/2008/04/curie.html ←

10:40:31 <Steven> Steven: Maybe use an analogy with how relative URIs are treated in the DOM

Steven Pemberton: Maybe use an analogy with how relative URIs are treated in the DOM ←

10:41:01 <Steven> Shane: I do agree that CURIEs have the same scoping problem as QNames

Unknown Shane: I do agree that CURIEs have the same scoping problem as QNames ←

10:41:13 <Steven> ... and I don't think we pretend to have solved those problems

... and I don't think we pretend to have solved those problems ←

10:44:43 <markbirbeck> But we open up the possibility of using other ways to create prefixes in the future.

Unknown markbirbeck: But we open up the possibility of using other ways to create prefixes in the future. ←

10:44:59 <oedipus> Section 2: Usage "CURIEs can be used in exactly the same syntactic way QNames have been used in attribute values, with the modification that the format of the strings after the colon is looser. In all cases a parsed CURIE will produce an IRI. However, the process of evaluating involves replacing the CURIE with a concatenation of the value represented by the prefix and the part after the colon (the reference)."

Gregory Rosmaita: Section 2: Usage "CURIEs can be used in exactly the same syntactic way QNames have been used in attribute values, with the modification that the format of the strings after the colon is looser. In all cases a parsed CURIE will produce an IRI. However, the process of evaluating involves replacing the CURIE with a concatenation of the value represented by the prefix and the part after the colon (the reference)." ←

10:45:00 <markbirbeck> So *one* of our techniques suffers from the same problem as QNames.

Unknown markbirbeck: So *one* of our techniques suffers from the same problem as QNames. ←

10:45:12 <markbirbeck> But that doesn't mean CURIEs will *always* suffer form the same problem.

Unknown markbirbeck: But that doesn't mean CURIEs will *always* suffer form the same problem. ←

10:45:22 <oedipus> "Note that if CURIEs are to be used in the context of scripting, accessing a CURIE via standard mechanisms such as the XML DOM will return the lexical form, not its value as IRI. In order to develop portable applications that evaluate CURIEs, a script author must transform CURIEs into their value as IRI before evaluating them (e.g., dereferencing the resulting IRI or comparing two CURIEs)."

Gregory Rosmaita: "Note that if CURIEs are to be used in the context of scripting, accessing a CURIE via standard mechanisms such as the XML DOM will return the lexical form, not its value as IRI. In order to develop portable applications that evaluate CURIEs, a script author must transform CURIEs into their value as IRI before evaluating them (e.g., dereferencing the resulting IRI or comparing two CURIEs)." ←

10:45:25 <Steven> Roland: Do we need to say anything about converting from IRIs to URIs?

Roland Merrick: Do we need to say anything about converting from IRIs to URIs? ←

10:45:35 <Steven> Steven: I think the IRI spec covers that

Steven Pemberton: I think the IRI spec covers that ←

10:46:23 <oedipus> Section 2.2 - http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-curie-20080506/#sec_2.2.

Gregory Rosmaita: Section 2.2 - http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-curie-20080506/#sec_2.2. ←

10:46:31 <Steven> Roland: This spec shouldn't use URIs anywhere then

Roland Merrick: This spec shouldn't use URIs anywhere then ←

10:46:46 <oedipus> "The concatenation of the prefix value associated with a CURIE and its reference MUST be an IRI (as defined by the IRI production in [IRI]). Note that while the set of IRIs represents the lexical space of a CURIE, the value space is the set of URIs (IRIs after canonicalization - see [IRI])."

Gregory Rosmaita: "The concatenation of the prefix value associated with a CURIE and its reference MUST be an IRI (as defined by the IRI production in [IRI]). Note that while the set of IRIs represents the lexical space of a CURIE, the value space is the set of URIs (IRIs after canonicalization - see [IRI])." ←

10:48:26 <Steven> Roland: Is this another improvement over QNames?

Roland Merrick: Is this another improvement over QNames? ←

10:48:41 <Steven> Shane: I think QNames allow IRIs too (they use AnyURI)

Unknown Shane: I think QNames allow IRIs too (they use AnyURI) ←

10:49:18 <oedipus> current abstract: "The aim of this document is to outline a syntax for expressing URIs in a generic, abbreviated syntax. While it has been produced in conjunction with the XHTML 2 Working Group, it is not specifically targeted at use by XHTML Family Markup Languages. Note that the target audience for this document is Language designers, not the users of those Languages."

Gregory Rosmaita: current abstract: "The aim of this document is to outline a syntax for expressing URIs in a generic, abbreviated syntax. While it has been produced in conjunction with the XHTML 2 Working Group, it is not specifically targeted at use by XHTML Family Markup Languages. Note that the target audience for this document is Language designers, not the users of those Languages." ←

10:51:27 <Steven> Steven: He's right, the lexical space is <prefix><colon><whatever>, and the value space is IRI

Steven Pemberton: He's right, the lexical space is <prefix><colon><whatever>, and the value space is IRI ←

10:51:34 <Steven> Shane: I need to fix that then

Unknown Shane: I need to fix that then ←

10:52:08 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-curie-20080506/#sec_4.1.

Gregory Rosmaita: http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-curie-20080506/#sec_4.1. ←

10:52:29 <oedipus> current: "The [SPARQL] language provides a PREFIX keyword for defining the prefix used in their CURIE-like identifiers."

Scribe problem: the name 'current' does not match any of the 8 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Roland Merrick Gregory Rosmaita Steven Pemberton Tina Holmboe Alessio Cartocci Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown current: "The [SPARQL] language provides a PREFIX keyword for defining the prefix used in their CURIE-like identifiers." [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

10:52:36 <Steven> Shane: He has a comment about SPARQL

Unknown Shane: He has a comment about SPARQL ←

10:52:47 <ShaneM> Host languages MAY define additional constraints on these syntax rules when CURIES are used in the context of those host languages. Host languages MUST NOT relax the constraints defined this specification.

Unknown ShaneM: Host languages MAY define additional constraints on these syntax rules when CURIES are used in the context of those host languages. Host languages MUST NOT relax the constraints defined this specification. ←

10:54:14 <oedipus> SPARQL 4.1.1. - http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-rdf-sparql-query-20080115/#QSynIRI

Gregory Rosmaita: SPARQL 4.1.1. - http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-rdf-sparql-query-20080115/#QSynIRI ←

10:55:02 <oedipus> "The PREFIX keyword associates a prefix label with an IRI. A prefixed name is a prefix label and a local part, separated by a colon ":". A prefixed name is mapped to an IRI by concatenating the IRI associated with the prefix and the local part. The prefix label or the local part may be empty. Note that SPARQL local names allow leading digits while XML local names do not."

Gregory Rosmaita: "The PREFIX keyword associates a prefix label with an IRI. A prefixed name is a prefix label and a local part, separated by a colon ":". A prefixed name is mapped to an IRI by concatenating the IRI associated with the prefix and the local part. The prefix label or the local part may be empty. Note that SPARQL local names allow leading digits while XML local names do not." ←

10:55:17 <Steven> Steven: SPARQL needs QNames as much as RDFa does

Steven Pemberton: SPARQL needs QNames as much as RDFa does ←

10:55:23 <markbirbeck> Shane...what was the link that Ivan sent us about some language using CURIEs? Should we reference that in our illustrations?

Unknown markbirbeck: Shane...what was the link that Ivan sent us about some language using CURIEs? Should we reference that in our illustrations? ←

10:55:26 <Steven> ... predicates can be any URI in RDF

... predicates can be any URI in RDF ←

10:55:46 <Steven> ... and SPARQL needs to search for them

... and SPARQL needs to search for them ←

10:55:51 <markbirbeck> (I think it was rules-related. RulesML, or something?)

Unknown markbirbeck: (I think it was rules-related. RulesML, or something?) ←

10:56:57 <oedipus> "The set of RDF terms defined in RDF Concepts and Abstract Syntax includes RDF URI references while SPARQL terms include IRIs. RDF URI references containing "<", ">", '"' (double quote), space, "{", "}", "|", "\", "^", and "`" are not IRIs. The behavior of a SPARQL query against RDF statements composed of such RDF URI references is not defined."

Gregory Rosmaita: "The set of RDF terms defined in RDF Concepts and Abstract Syntax includes RDF URI references while SPARQL terms include IRIs. RDF URI references containing "<", ">", '"' (double quote), space, "{", "}", "|", "\", "^", and "`" are not IRIs. The behavior of a SPARQL query against RDF statements composed of such RDF URI references is not defined." ←

10:57:53 <Steven> "the RIF group plans to use CURIE-s in their next charter for what they call presentation syntax. This is not a XML based syntax at all, by the way.:

"the RIF group plans to use CURIE-s in their next charter for what they call presentation syntax. This is not a XML based syntax at all, by the way.: ←

10:58:22 <Steven> Shane: We should just accept Stuart's comments wholesale

Unknown Shane: We should just accept Stuart's comments wholesale ←

10:58:29 <Steven> [Agreement]

[Agreement] ←

10:58:30 <oedipus> +1

Gregory Rosmaita: +1 ←

10:58:37 <Roland> +1

Roland Merrick: +1 ←

10:59:11 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-xml-cg/2008Jun/0004.html

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-xml-cg/2008Jun/0004.html ←

11:00:58 <alessio> +1

Alessio Cartocci: +1 ←

11:01:07 <Steven> "When CURIES are used in an XML-based host language,

"When CURIES are used in an XML-based host language, ←

11:01:07 <Steven>   prefix values MUST be able to be defined using the 'xmlns:' syntax

prefix values MUST be able to be defined using the 'xmlns:' syntax ←

11:01:07 <Steven>   specified in [XMLNAMES]. Such host languages MAY also provide

specified in [XMLNAMES]. Such host languages MAY also provide ←

11:01:07 <Steven>   additional prefix mapping definition mechanisms."

additional prefix mapping definition mechanisms." ←

11:01:15 <Steven> Steven: Why do we say that?

Steven Pemberton: Why do we say that? ←

11:01:22 <Steven> Shane: For HTML4

Unknown Shane: For HTML4 ←

11:04:15 <Steven> Steven: Then we should tell authors not to bind the same prefix to different URIs

Steven Pemberton: Then we should tell authors not to bind the same prefix to different URIs ←

11:05:26 <Steven> Shane: That's good

Unknown Shane: That's good ←

11:05:35 <Steven> Shane: Do we need to treat this as a formal comment?

Unknown Shane: Do we need to treat this as a formal comment? ←

11:05:42 <Steven> Steven: No, we're just being polite

Steven Pemberton: No, we're just being polite ←

11:06:09 <Steven> ACTION: Steven to reply to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-xml-cg/2008Jun/0004.html

ACTION: Steven to reply to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-xml-cg/2008Jun/0004.html ←

11:06:27 <Steven> Roland: End of session?

Roland Merrick: End of session? ←

11:06:52 <Steven> Steven: So next step is to update the spec and go to CR

Steven Pemberton: So next step is to update the spec and go to CR ←

11:07:17 <Steven> Shane: I will change the spec

Unknown Shane: I will change the spec ←

11:07:21 <oedipus> i can plus one (in shane we trust...)

Gregory Rosmaita: i can plus one (in shane we trust...) ←

11:07:24 <Steven> Roalnd: Shall we look at it Thursday?

Scribe problem: the name 'Roalnd' does not match any of the 8 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Roland Merrick Gregory Rosmaita Steven Pemberton Tina Holmboe Alessio Cartocci Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Roalnd: Shall we look at it Thursday? ←

11:07:27 <Steven> Shane: Great idea

Unknown Shane: Great idea ←

11:07:46 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

Gregory Rosmaita: rrsagent, make minutes ←

11:07:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

11:08:22 <Steven> === BREAK, reconvene in 98 minutes ===

5.1. BREAK, reconvene in 98 minutes ===

11:08:29 <ShaneM> do people believe this: Note that while the <em>lexical space</em>

Unknown ShaneM: do people believe this: Note that while the <em>lexical space</em> ←

11:08:29 <ShaneM> of a CURIE is as defined in <a href=="#P_curie">curie</a> above,

Unknown ShaneM: of a CURIE is as defined in <a href=="#P_curie">curie</a> above, ←

11:08:29 <ShaneM> the <em>value space</em> is the set of IRIs.

Unknown ShaneM: the <em>value space</em> is the set of IRIs. ←

11:08:33 <Steven> === 12:45 UTC ===

5.2. 12:45 UTC ===

11:08:47 <Roland> reconvene at 12:45UTC http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingdetails.html?year=2008&month=6&day=17&hour=12&min=45&sec=0&p1=136&p2=179&p3=215&p4=248&p5=283

Roland Merrick: reconvene at 12:45UTC http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingdetails.html?year=2008&month=6&day=17&hour=12&min=45&sec=0&p1=136&p2=179&p3=215&p4=248&p5=283 ←

11:08:50 <oedipus> a o k

Gregory Rosmaita: a o k ←

11:08:54 <Steven> +1

+1 ←

11:09:16 <Zakim> -ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: -ShaneM ←

11:09:18 <Zakim> -Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven ←

11:09:20 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita

Zakim IRC Bot: -Gregory_Rosmaita ←

11:09:38 <Zakim> -yamx

Zakim IRC Bot: -yamx ←

11:09:42 <Zakim> -Tina

Zakim IRC Bot: -Tina ←

11:10:02 <yamx> I will be back home, but I think 90 minutes is enough. See you later.

Unknown yamx: I will be back home, but I think 90 minutes is enough. See you later. ←

11:10:36 <ShaneM> and I will be migrating to my office.

Unknown ShaneM: and I will be migrating to my office. ←

11:11:24 <Steven> Those long Tokyo commutes

Those long Tokyo commutes ←

11:13:30 <alessio> have a good lunch (for me just a sandwich)

Alessio Cartocci: have a good lunch (for me just a sandwich) ←

11:17:27 <ShaneM> RDFa Syntax is updated.  I will update the CURIE draft later today with all the changes we agreed, and also develop the Dispositiojn of COmments document

Unknown ShaneM: RDFa Syntax is updated. I will update the CURIE draft later today with all the changes we agreed, and also develop the Dispositiojn of COmments document ←

11:59:51 <Zakim> -Roland

(No events recorded for 42 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: -Roland ←

11:59:53 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()4:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: IA_XHTML2()4:00AM has ended ←

11:59:54 <Zakim> Attendees were Roland, Steven, Gregory_Rosmaita, Yam, ShaneM, +04670855aaaa, Tina, yamx

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Roland, Steven, Gregory_Rosmaita, Yam, ShaneM, +04670855aaaa, Tina, yamx ←

12:00:34 <oedipus_laptop> rrsagent, make minutes

Scribe problem: the name 'oedipus_laptop' does not match any of the 8 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Roland Merrick Gregory Rosmaita Steven Pemberton Tina Holmboe Alessio Cartocci Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown oedipus_laptop: rrsagent, make minutes ←

12:00:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus_laptop

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus_laptop ←

12:40:28 <Steven> zakim, this will be xhtml

(No events recorded for 39 minutes)

zakim, this will be xhtml ←

12:40:28 <Zakim> ok, Steven; I see IA_XHTML2()4:00AM scheduled to start 280 minutes ago

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; I see IA_XHTML2()4:00AM scheduled to start 280 minutes ago ←

12:44:03 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()4:00AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: IA_XHTML2()4:00AM has now started ←

12:44:10 <Zakim> +Roland

Zakim IRC Bot: +Roland ←

12:44:57 <Zakim> +ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM ←

12:45:08 <Zakim> +Tina

Zakim IRC Bot: +Tina ←

12:45:12 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617

zakim, dial steven-617 ←

12:45:12 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; the call is being made ←

12:45:14 <Zakim> +Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven ←

12:46:42 <Zakim> +??P9

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P9 ←

12:46:51 <yamx> Zakim, ??P9 is yamx

Unknown yamx: Zakim, ??P9 is yamx ←

12:46:51 <Zakim> +yamx; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +yamx; got it ←

12:48:04 <Steven> === RESTART ===

5.3. RESTART ===

12:48:37 <Steven> Topic: Role last call comments

6. Role last call comments

12:48:48 <Roland> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-xhtml-role-20080407/

Roland Merrick: http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-xhtml-role-20080407/ ←

12:48:54 <Steven> Shane: Did we get any?

Unknown Shane: Did we get any? ←

12:49:05 <ShaneM> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/RoleAttrib?id=8038;user=guest;statetype=-1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

Unknown ShaneM: http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/RoleAttrib?id=8038;user=guest;statetype=-1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

12:49:05 <Steven> ... We already replied to the SVG WG

... We already replied to the SVG WG ←

12:49:28 <Steven> Roland: No comment from Al?

Roland Merrick: No comment from Al? ←

12:49:34 <Steven> Shane: You're right

Unknown Shane: You're right ←

12:50:52 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2008AprJun/0036.html

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2008AprJun/0036.html ←

12:51:02 <Roland> comment from Al Gilman

Roland Merrick: comment from Al Gilman ←

12:51:22 <ShaneM> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/RoleAttrib?id=8041;user=guest;statetype=-1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

Unknown ShaneM: http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/RoleAttrib?id=8041;user=guest;statetype=-1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

12:51:30 <Steven> Shane: issue 8041

Unknown Shane: ISSUE-8041 ←

12:51:43 <Steven> ... a personal comment he says

... a personal comment he says ←

12:56:15 <Steven> Shane: He points out that role has a CURIE dependency. Well, he's right

Unknown Shane: He points out that role has a CURIE dependency. Well, he's right ←

12:57:44 <Steven> ... he wonders what to do with roles that they don't know how to deal with

... he wonders what to do with roles that they don't know how to deal with ←

12:57:50 <Steven> Roland: Ignore it

Roland Merrick: Ignore it ←

12:58:03 <Steven> Shane: Or not; follow the URIs and so on

Unknown Shane: Or not; follow the URIs and so on ←

12:59:22 <ShaneM> The working group recognizes that the dependency on CURIEs is a risk, but is aggressively progressing the CURIE specification and are confident that it will become a Recommendation in short order.

Unknown ShaneM: The working group recognizes that the dependency on CURIEs is a risk, but is aggressively progressing the CURIE specification and are confident that it will become a Recommendation in short order. ←

12:59:22 <ShaneM>

Unknown ShaneM: ←

12:59:22 <ShaneM> As to what the ARIA spec should require with regard to processing role values that are CURIES, we have no real recommendation.  It is entirely up to you.

Unknown ShaneM: As to what the ARIA spec should require with regard to processing role values that are CURIES, we have no real recommendation. It is entirely up to you. ←

12:59:30 <Steven> Steven: We should reply that yes, there is a dependency and his spec needs to say what to do with unknown values

Steven Pemberton: We should reply that yes, there is a dependency and his spec needs to say what to do with unknown values ←

13:00:24 <ShaneM> The working group recognizes that the dependency on CURIEs is a risk, but is aggressively progressing the CURIE specification and is confident that it will become a Recommendation in short order.

Unknown ShaneM: The working group recognizes that the dependency on CURIEs is a risk, but is aggressively progressing the CURIE specification and is confident that it will become a Recommendation in short order. ←

13:00:24 <ShaneM>

Unknown ShaneM: ←

13:00:24 <ShaneM> As to what the ARIA spec should require with regard to processing role values that are CURIES, we have no real recommendation.  It is entirely up to you.  You could dereference the associated URI and attempt to determine the semantics by examining the RDF at the other end, for example.  RichS has proposed such a thing in the past.

Unknown ShaneM: As to what the ARIA spec should require with regard to processing role values that are CURIES, we have no real recommendation. It is entirely up to you. You could dereference the associated URI and attempt to determine the semantics by examining the RDF at the other end, for example. RichS has proposed such a thing in the past. ←

13:00:24 <Steven> ... clearly they need an extension path

... clearly they need an extension path ←

13:01:33 <Steven> Steven: Yes, something like that

Steven Pemberton: Yes, something like that ←

13:01:54 <Steven> ACTION: Reply to Al in issue 8041

ACTION: Reply to Al in ISSUE-8041 ←

13:02:02 <Steven> ACTION 5=

ACTION-5= ←

13:02:16 <Steven> ACTION: Shane to reply to Al in issue 8041

ACTION: Shane to reply to Al in ISSUE-8041 ←

13:02:48 <Steven> Tina: I can live with role, but

Tina Holmboe: I can live with role, but ←

13:03:04 <Tina> <div role="paragraph">

Tina Holmboe: <div role="paragraph"> ←

13:03:07 <Steven> ... I would like to add that if a naked element fits better, then use that and not the role

... I would like to add that if a native element fits better, then use that and not the role ←

13:03:18 <Steven> s/naked/native/

13:04:29 <Steven> Tina: It is better to use semantic elements like p, than add roles to semantic-less elements

Tina Holmboe: It is better to use semantic elements like p, than add roles to semantic-less elements ←

13:05:34 <Steven> Shane: Where should we put this?

Unknown Shane: Where should we put this? ←

13:06:20 <Tina> <div class="paragraph">

Tina Holmboe: <div class="paragraph"> ←

13:07:00 <Steven> Tina: We need to avoid this sort of misuse

Tina Holmboe: We need to avoid this sort of misuse ←

13:08:19 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita

Zakim IRC Bot: +Gregory_Rosmaita ←

13:08:56 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

Gregory Rosmaita: rrsagent, make minutes ←

13:08:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

13:09:15 <Roland> Insert text into: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-role/#s_role_module_attributes

Roland Merrick: Insert text into: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-role/#s_role_module_attributes ←

13:10:45 <Steven> Although the role attribute adds sematnics to an element, authors should be aware that it is preferable to use elements with inherent semantics, such as <p>, rather than layering semantics on a semantically neutral elements, such as <div role="paragraph">

Although the role attribute adds sematnics to an element, authors should be aware that it is preferable to use elements with inherent semantics, such as <p>, rather than layering semantics on a semantically neutral elements, such as <div role="paragraph"> ←

13:11:10 <Steven> Roland: use SHOULD

Roland Merrick: use SHOULD ←

13:11:16 <oedipus> use elements with native inherit semantics

Gregory Rosmaita: use elements with native inherit semantics ←

13:11:52 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←

13:12:03 <oedipus> s/adds semantics/may be used to add

Gregory Rosmaita: s/adds semantics/may be used to add (warning: replacement failed) ←

13:12:08 <alessio> zakim, IPcaller is Alessio

Alessio Cartocci: zakim, IPcaller is Alessio ←

13:12:08 <Zakim> +Alessio; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Alessio; got it ←

13:12:22 <Steven> Although the role attribute may be used to add semantics to an element, authors SHOULD use elements with inherent semantics, such as <p>, rather than layering semantics on a semantically neutral elements, such as <div role="paragraph">

Although the role attribute may be used to add semantics to an element, authors SHOULD use elements with inherent semantics, such as <p>, rather than layering semantics on a semantically neutral elements, such as <div role="paragraph"> ←

13:12:40 <oedipus> i can help with ARIA examples of proper use of role

Gregory Rosmaita: i can help with ARIA examples of proper use of role ←

13:13:00 <oedipus> have role="math" ARIA examples positive and negative

Gregory Rosmaita: have role="math" ARIA examples positive and negative ←

13:16:18 <Steven> Shane: So next step is a new draft, and review later this week for CR

Unknown Shane: So next step is a new draft, and review later this week for CR ←

13:18:00 <Steven> zakim, mute alessio

zakim, mute alessio ←

13:18:00 <Zakim> Alessio should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Alessio should now be muted ←

13:18:17 <alessio> sorry

Alessio Cartocci: sorry ←

13:18:38 <Steven> Topic: Access

7. Access

13:18:49 <Roland> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-xhtml-access-20080526/

Roland Merrick: http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-xhtml-access-20080526/ ←

13:19:02 <Tina> oedipus: please do! :)

Gregory Rosmaita: please do! :) [ Scribe Assist by Tina Holmboe ] ←

13:19:28 <Steven> Roland: Any comments?

Roland Merrick: Any comments? ←

13:19:34 <Steven> Shane: I don't think so

Unknown Shane: I don't think so ←

13:19:47 <Steven> Steven: A bit worrying

Steven Pemberton: A bit worrying ←

13:19:56 <oedipus> GJR got a verbal thumbs up on Access Module from RichS wearing his UbiWeb hat

Gregory Rosmaita: GJR got a verbal thumbs up on Access Module from RichS wearing his UbiWeb hat ←

13:20:18 <Steven> Tina: I have an initial implementation

Tina Holmboe: I have an initial implementation ←

13:20:27 <Steven> ... we had no problems, it looks fine!

... we had no problems, it looks fine! ←

13:20:41 <Steven> Roland: Since one usage is accessibility

Roland Merrick: Since one usage is accessibility ←

13:20:53 <Steven> ... do WAI say anything about it?

... do WAI say anything about it? ←

13:21:14 <Steven> Gregory: Our official position (PF) is that we want HTML5 to adopt it

Gregory Rosmaita: Our official position (PF) is that we want HTML5 to adopt it ←

13:22:02 <Steven> Tina: WCAG2 doesn't mention access keys

Tina Holmboe: WCAG2 doesn't mention access keys ←

13:22:17 <Steven> Gregory: Right, but I can record that

Gregory Rosmaita: Right, but I can record that ←

13:23:47 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#keyboard-operation

http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#keyboard-operation ←

13:24:15 <Steven> Tina: I have no objection to going forward

Tina Holmboe: I have no objection to going forward ←

13:24:45 <alessio> maybe I can revisit (and go on with) my old tests on Access module to put them on the wiki

Alessio Cartocci: maybe I can revisit (and go on with) my old tests on Access module to put them on the wiki ←

13:25:06 <Steven> Steven: If groups are OK, then we should ask them for positive statements so we can point to proof of review

Steven Pemberton: If groups are OK, then we should ask them for positive statements so we can point to proof of review ←

13:27:13 <Steven> Steven: XForms says:

Steven Pemberton: XForms says: ←

13:27:15 <Steven> Further, a host language must provide a way to indicate overall navigation order among form controls and other elements included in the host language, as well as keyboard or direct access navigation to specific elements. One such proposal is to uses a pair of attributes named navindex and accesskey, defined as follows:

Further, a host language must provide a way to indicate overall navigation order among form controls and other elements included in the host language, as well as keyboard or direct access navigation to specific elements. One such proposal is to uses a pair of attributes named navindex and accesskey, defined as follows: ←

13:28:05 <oedipus> GJR: will submit access module example to wcag20 - http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/TECHS-SUBMIT/

Gregory Rosmaita: will submit access module example to wcag20 - http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/TECHS-SUBMIT/ [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

13:28:35 <oedipus> tina, any other WCAG2 comments or observations, please let me know (email if you prefer: oedipus@hicom.net)

Gregory Rosmaita: tina, any other WCAG2 comments or observations, please let me know (email if you prefer: oedipus@hicom.net) ←

13:28:45 <Steven> Steven: So XForms doesn't provide a native acceskey

Steven Pemberton: So XForms doesn't provide a native acceskey ←

13:29:00 <Steven> ACTION: Steven to ask XForms to send a comment

ACTION: Steven to ask XForms to send a comment ←

13:29:19 <Tina> oedipus: I'm working on some comments actually ... in particularly when it comes to the blinking/refresh bit.

Gregory Rosmaita: I'm working on some comments actually ... in particularly when it comes to the blinking/refresh bit. [ Scribe Assist by Tina Holmboe ] ←

13:29:27 <Steven> ACTION: Gregory to get positive review from Ubiquitous web apps

ACTION: Gregory to get positive review from Ubiquitous web apps ←

13:29:57 <Steven> Roland: What about SVG?

Roland Merrick: What about SVG? ←

13:30:53 <Steven> Shane: The real value of access is in combination with XML Events

Unknown Shane: The real value of access is in combination with XML Events ←

13:30:58 <Steven> Steven: And role

Steven Pemberton: And role ←

13:30:59 <oedipus> agree that plus XML Events is better, but what we have is better than accesskey

Gregory Rosmaita: agree that plus XML Events is better, but what we have is better than accesskey ←

13:31:45 <Steven> Shane: And the ability of defining a sequence of landing points is powerful

Unknown Shane: And the ability of defining a sequence of landing points is powerful ←

13:33:38 <Zakim> -Alessio

Zakim IRC Bot: -Alessio ←

13:35:21 <Zakim> +??P13

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P13 ←

13:35:30 <alessio_> zakim, P13 is Alessio

Alessio Cartocci: zakim, P13 is Alessio ←

13:35:30 <Zakim> sorry, alessio_, I do not recognize a party named 'P13'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, alessio_, I do not recognize a party named 'P13' ←

13:35:35 <alessio_> zakim, ??P13 is Alessio

Alessio Cartocci: zakim, ??P13 is Alessio ←

13:35:35 <Zakim> +Alessio; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Alessio; got it ←

13:35:49 <oedipus> tina, your type of feedback is desperately needed - and comment on the usability, too, if you care to

Gregory Rosmaita: tina, your type of feedback is desperately needed - and comment on the usability, too, if you care to ←

13:35:57 <Steven> Steven: I have sent the message to the Forms WG

Steven Pemberton: I have sent the message to the Forms WG ←

13:36:25 <Tina> oedipus: going to comment, yeah ... just having abit of a time squeeze. We're working on getting a preliminary implementation of WCAG 2 in siteSifter by the 30th.

Gregory Rosmaita: going to comment, yeah ... just having abit of a time squeeze. We're working on getting a preliminary implementation of WCAG 2 in siteSifter by the 30th. [ Scribe Assist by Tina Holmboe ] ←

13:39:21 <Steven> Steven: Mayeb we can mention it at the HCG this week

Steven Pemberton: Mayeb we can mention it at the HCG this week ←

13:39:31 <oedipus> tina, wcag20's strong point are the techniques documents - my favorite is technique C7 (overflow to provide longer link text but display only "read more..."

Gregory Rosmaita: tina, wcag20's strong point are the techniques documents - my favorite is technique C7 (overflow to provide longer link text but display only "read more..." ←

13:39:58 <Steven> Topic: Putting the specs together

8. Putting the specs together

13:40:41 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Jun/att-0048/nameFromProposal.html#implementation

Gregory Rosmaita: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Jun/att-0048/nameFromProposal.html#implementation ←

13:40:54 <oedipus> proposed text in above attachment

Gregory Rosmaita: proposed text in above attachment ←

13:41:18 <Steven> Roland: So what is happening in this whole area?

Roland Merrick: So what is happening in this whole area? ←

13:41:33 <Steven> ... what more do we need to do?

... what more do we need to do? ←

13:41:53 <Steven> Shane: We have an interesting dependency on the ARIA activity

Unknown Shane: We have an interesting dependency on the ARIA activity ←

13:42:10 <oedipus> GJR: there is the high ground that implementors should not treat the "Status of this Document" verbiage as boilerplate - that is what FF did

Gregory Rosmaita: there is the high ground that implementors should not treat the "Status of this Document" verbiage as boilerplate - that is what FF did [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

13:42:34 <Steven> ... we should strongly advocate ARIA

... we should strongly advocate ARIA ←

13:43:00 <oedipus> if it isn't easy to author, it will fail utterly

Gregory Rosmaita: if it isn't easy to author, it will fail utterly ←

13:43:07 <Steven> Roland: There are only a hald dozen browser implementors vs thousands and millions of authors

Roland Merrick: There are only a half dozen browser implementors vs thousands and millions of authors ←

13:43:14 <Steven> s/hald/half/

13:44:09 <oedipus> GJR would like to use ARIA to promote Role, but the HTML5 integration impasse is preventing that

Gregory Rosmaita: GJR would like to use ARIA to promote Role, but the HTML5 integration impasse is preventing that ←

13:44:10 <Steven> Shane: I don;t think there is anything else we should do, except putting them together in one markup language

Unknown Shane: I don;t think there is anything else we should do, except putting them together in one markup language ←

13:45:01 <oedipus> RWAB (Rich Web Application Backplane) - if those libraries are aria enabled, then the battle is half-won

Gregory Rosmaita: RWAB (Rich Web Application Backplane) - if those libraries are aria enabled, then the battle is half-won ←

13:45:19 <alessio_> sure, gregory

Alessio Cartocci: sure, gregory ←

13:45:24 <Steven> Steven: There is the issue of abstract or intent-oriented events

Steven Pemberton: There is the issue of abstract or intent-oriented events ←

13:45:34 <Steven> ... but I believe the Backplane XG owns those now

... but I believe the Backplane XG owns those now ←

13:45:47 <Steven> yay!

yay! ←

13:46:14 <Steven> === Break til top of hour ====

8.1. Break til top of hour ====

13:46:15 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita

Zakim IRC Bot: -Gregory_Rosmaita ←

13:46:16 <Zakim> -ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: -ShaneM ←

13:46:21 <Zakim> -Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven ←

13:46:23 <Zakim> -yamx

Zakim IRC Bot: -yamx ←

13:46:25 <Zakim> -Alessio

Zakim IRC Bot: -Alessio ←

13:46:28 <Zakim> -Tina

Zakim IRC Bot: -Tina ←

13:56:11 <oedipus> tina, http://www.w3.org/TR/UAAG20/#principle-operable - also, i have logged additional verbiage for definition of input configuration to include the Access Module

(No events recorded for 9 minutes)

Gregory Rosmaita: tina, http://www.w3.org/TR/UAAG20/#principle-operable - also, i have logged additional verbiage for definition of input configuration to include the Access Module ←

13:57:49 <Tina> oedipus: *nods* Goodie.

Gregory Rosmaita: *nods* Goodie. [ Scribe Assist by Tina Holmboe ] ←

13:59:37 <Steven> woohoo

woohoo ←

14:00:17 <alessio_> gregory, I tried to aria-enable (with aria-live attribute) the google rss reader

Alessio Cartocci: gregory, I tried to aria-enable (with aria-live attribute) the google rss reader ←

14:00:32 <oedipus> yeah? can i test?

Gregory Rosmaita: yeah? can i test? ←

14:01:06 <alessio_> sure, I have still to working on ;)

Alessio Cartocci: sure, I have still to working on ;) ←

14:01:37 <oedipus> making twitter tweet: http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/?p=65

Gregory Rosmaita: making twitter tweet: http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/?p=65 ←

14:01:38 <alessio_> http://labs.iwa.it/apps/googlefeed/

Alessio Cartocci: http://labs.iwa.it/apps/googlefeed/ ←

14:01:44 <oedipus> thanks!

Gregory Rosmaita: thanks! ←

14:01:54 <Zakim> +ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM ←

14:02:02 <oedipus> interesting stuff about ARIA at http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/

Gregory Rosmaita: interesting stuff about ARIA at http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/ ←

14:02:03 <alessio_> done the same with a my experiment with twitter... LOL

Alessio Cartocci: done the same with a my experiment with twitter... LOL ←

14:02:14 <oedipus> great minds think alike!

Gregory Rosmaita: great minds think alike! ←

14:03:20 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617

zakim, dial steven-617 ←

14:03:20 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; the call is being made ←

14:03:21 <Zakim> +Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven ←

14:03:44 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita

Zakim IRC Bot: +Gregory_Rosmaita ←

14:04:00 <Zakim> +??P5

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P5 ←

14:04:04 <Zakim> +??P7

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P7 ←

14:04:09 <alessio_> zakim, ??P5 is Alessio

Alessio Cartocci: zakim, ??P5 is Alessio ←

14:04:09 <Zakim> +Alessio; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Alessio; got it ←

14:04:46 <Zakim> + +46.7.08.55.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +46.7.08.55.aaaa ←

14:05:06 <Tina> zakim, ??aaa is Tina

Tina Holmboe: zakim, ??aaa is Tina ←

14:05:06 <Zakim> sorry, Tina, I do not recognize a party named '??aaa'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, Tina, I do not recognize a party named '??aaa' ←

14:05:16 <yamx> Zakim,??P7 is yamx

Unknown yamx: Zakim,??P7 is yamx ←

14:05:16 <Zakim> +yamx; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +yamx; got it ←

14:05:21 <Steven> zakim, aaaa is Tina

zakim, aaaa is Tina ←

14:05:21 <Zakim> +Tina; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Tina; got it ←

14:05:27 <Tina> Ah. Thanks, Steven.

Tina Holmboe: Ah. Thanks, Steven. ←

14:07:52 <Steven> zakim, mute alessio

zakim, mute alessio ←

14:07:52 <Zakim> Alessio should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Alessio should now be muted ←

14:08:16 <ShaneM> XHTML Role Candidate Rec draft is up at http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/CR-xhtml-role-20080630/

Unknown ShaneM: XHTML Role Candidate Rec draft is up at http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/CR-xhtml-role-20080630/ ←

14:08:16 <Steven> Topic: XFrames

9. XFrames

14:08:23 <Steven> ack al

ack al ←

14:08:43 <alessio_> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/Tests

Alessio Cartocci: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/Tests ←

14:08:44 <Steven> Alessio: I have just published the page with my tests

Alessio Cartocci: I have just published the page with my tests ←

14:09:39 <Steven> ... It is useful to link inside Frames

... It is useful to link inside Frames ←

14:10:23 <alessio_> http://labs.iwa.it/xhtml2/test-frames-1.xml#src(f1=http://labs.iwa.it/blog/,f2=http://labs.iwa.it/)

Alessio Cartocci: http://labs.iwa.it/xhtml2/test-frames-1.xml#src(f1=http://labs.iwa.it/blog/,f2=http://labs.iwa.it/) ←

14:10:26 <Steven> Alessio: If you go to the link above

Alessio Cartocci: If you go to the link above ←

14:10:33 <Steven> ... and follow the link to the test

... and follow the link to the test ←

14:11:19 <Steven> ... you will see a simple example

... you will see a simple example ←

14:12:04 <Steven> ... we want object and iframe to be identical

... we want object and iframe to be identical ←

14:12:44 <Steven> Note that http://labs.iwa.it/xhtml2/test-frames-1.xml#src(f1=http://labs.iwa.it/,f2=http://labs.iwa.it/) works too

Note that http://labs.iwa.it/xhtml2/test-frames-1.xml#src(f1=http://labs.iwa.it/,f2=http://labs.iwa.it/) works too ←

14:12:59 <alessio_> #src()

Alessio Cartocci: #src() ←

14:13:06 <alessio_> #frames()

Alessio Cartocci: #frames() ←

14:13:38 <Steven> Alessio: object doesn't allow dynamic changes, only iframe

Alessio Cartocci: object doesn't allow dynamic changes, only iframe ←

14:14:31 <Steven> ... so I had to do some extra work

... so I had to do some extra work ←

14:15:34 <Steven> ... FF3 has an interesting difference, since object does work dynamically

... FF3 has an interesting difference, since object does work dynamically ←

14:15:56 <alessio_> document.getElementById('f2').data = "someurl"

Alessio Cartocci: document.getElementById('f2').data = "someurl" ←

14:16:17 <Steven> Alessio: this works in FF3, but not in others

Alessio Cartocci: this works in FF3, but not in others ←

14:17:14 <Steven> ... so I have to change the content of object to get it to work

... so I have to change the content of object to get it to work ←

14:17:22 <Steven> ... on the fly

... on the fly ←

14:18:42 <Steven> Roland: So our aim is to make a collection of objects and iframes to make bookmarking of collections possible

Roland Merrick: So our aim is to make a collection of objects and iframes to make bookmarking of collections possible ←

14:18:54 <Steven> ... and get it to work in current browsers

... and get it to work in current browsers ←

14:20:40 <Steven> ... the issue of security is of course of utmost importnace

... the issue of security is of course of utmost importance ←

14:20:47 <Steven> s/nace/ance/

14:23:02 <Steven> Roland: If we can achieve the effect within XHTML, do we need XFrames as well?

Roland Merrick: If we can achieve the effect within XHTML, do we need XFrames as well? ←

14:23:17 <Steven> Steven: I don't think so; the requirements have been met

Steven Pemberton: I don't think so; the requirements have been met ←

14:27:10 <oedipus> q+

Gregory Rosmaita: q+ ←

14:30:02 <oedipus> iframe navigation is a product of AT support -- most ATs have support for IFRAME disabled by default

Gregory Rosmaita: iframe navigation is a product of AT support -- most ATs have support for IFRAME disabled by default ←

14:30:22 <Steven> Alessio: There is a problem that object doesn't receive focus

Alessio Cartocci: There is a problem that object doesn't receive focus ←

14:30:36 <oedipus> depending on content of IFRAME, it may or may not be accessible to an AT, because AT has to force focus to the IFRAME

Gregory Rosmaita: depending on content of IFRAME, it may or may not be accessible to an AT, because AT has to force focus to the IFRAME ←

14:31:10 <Steven> Steven: On Safari I don't seem to be able to give either focus

Steven Pemberton: On Safari I don't seem to be able to give either focus ←

14:31:39 <Steven> Gregory: Most assistive technologies disable iframes

Gregory Rosmaita: Most assistive technologies disable iframes ←

14:32:03 <alessio_> steven, are you on a mac?

Alessio Cartocci: steven, are you on a mac? ←

14:32:13 <Steven> no, I have safari on Windows

no, I have safari on Windows ←

14:32:28 <oedipus> q-

Gregory Rosmaita: q- ←

14:32:31 <Steven> Alessio: Safari on a Mac is different

Alessio Cartocci: Safari on a Mac is different ←

14:33:08 <Steven> Gregory: Aria adds support for iframes

Gregory Rosmaita: Aria adds support for iframes ←

14:33:56 <Steven> Gregory: Only expensive screen readers support iframe

Gregory Rosmaita: Only expensive screen readers support iframe ←

14:34:13 <Steven> Roland: Isn't that just a question of time?

Roland Merrick: Isn't that just a question of time? ←

14:34:27 <Steven> Gregory: Yes, and ARIA will improve things

Gregory Rosmaita: Yes, and ARIA will improve things ←

14:35:32 <oedipus> need native support for resizing in IFRAME

Gregory Rosmaita: need native support for resizing in IFRAME ←

14:35:51 <Steven> Tina: The screen size thing is only addressable with teaching

Tina Holmboe: The screen size thing is only addressable with teaching ←

14:36:00 <Steven> ... authors must learn not to make assumptions

... authors must learn not to make assumptions ←

14:36:49 <Steven> Roland: Lots of sites hardwire the width

Roland Merrick: Lots of sites hardwire the width ←

14:36:53 <Steven> Steven: Yes

Steven Pemberton: Yes ←

14:38:32 <Steven> Roland: But they don't have to

Roland Merrick: But they don't have to ←

14:38:45 <Steven> ... Alessio, your page adapts to the width

... Alessio, your page adapts to the width ←

14:39:10 <oedipus> ARIA won't address user control over size of viewport (amount of scrolling necessary) - not scaling, but resizing

Gregory Rosmaita: ARIA won't address user control over size of viewport (amount of scrolling necessary) - not scaling, but resizing ←

14:40:37 <Steven> Tina: The problem isn't 100%, but 810px etc

Tina Holmboe: The problem isn't 100%, but 810px etc ←

14:41:01 <Steven> ... if you tirn off CSS< you shouldn't lose information

... if you turn off CSS, you shouldn't lose information ←

14:41:06 <Steven> s/</,/

14:41:14 <Steven> s/tirn/turn/

14:41:48 <alessio_> we can also add width="50%" height="50%"

Alessio Cartocci: we can also add width="50%" height="50%" ←

14:42:29 <Steven> Roland: I'm not sure of the difficulties for accessibility with iframe

Roland Merrick: I'm not sure of the difficulties for accessibility with iframe ←

14:42:36 <Steven> ... it can clearly be resized

... it can clearly be resized ←

14:45:25 <Steven> Tina: The main problem is the containment of one document in another

Tina Holmboe: The main problem is the containment of one document in another ←

14:45:56 <Steven> ... such as focus moving between documents

... such as focus moving between documents ←

14:46:03 <Steven> ... what does the access key refer to?

... what does the access key refer to? ←

14:46:14 <Steven> ... the contained or the container?

... the contained or the container? ←

14:47:25 <Steven> Roland: Isn't it the same problem with two Googlemaps in two divs?

Roland Merrick: Isn't it the same problem with two Googlemaps in two divs? ←

14:47:32 <Steven> ... which zoom control do I get?

... which zoom control do I get? ←

14:47:42 <Steven> Tina: Same problem, yes

Tina Holmboe: Same problem, yes ←

14:47:59 <Steven> ... but the combination has to be defined

... but the combination has to be defined ←

14:48:16 <oedipus> GJR +1 to tina's point about cascade order of UI between embedded document and document into which it is embedded - need to be defined

Gregory Rosmaita: GJR +1 to tina's point about cascade order of UI between embedded document and document into which it is embedded - need to be defined ←

14:48:26 <Steven> Roland: These problems are inherent to mashups

Roland Merrick: These problems are inherent to mashups ←

14:49:03 <alessio_> contentWindow.location

Alessio Cartocci: contentWindow.location ←

14:49:05 <Steven> Alessio: with iframe you can;t get to the parent document

Alessio Cartocci: with iframe you can't get to the parent document ←

14:49:39 <Steven> s/;/'/

14:51:29 <Steven> Tina: I woukld prefer mashups being done on the server, but I agree we have to define the effect

Tina Holmboe: I woukld prefer mashups being done on the server, but I agree we have to define the effect ←

14:51:45 <Steven> Roland: What are the problems we need to solve?

Roland Merrick: What are the problems we need to solve? ←

14:51:52 <oedipus> that is what i am going to ask on the w3c-wai-ua list

Gregory Rosmaita: that is what i am going to ask on the w3c-wai-ua list ←

14:52:10 <oedipus> what are the problems as of today

Gregory Rosmaita: what are the problems as of today ←

14:52:56 <Steven> Roland: Compound documents are a fact of life

Roland Merrick: Compound documents are a fact of life ←

14:53:09 <Steven> ... we should support them in some sort of framework

... we should support them in some sort of framework ←

14:54:33 <Steven> Tina: I prefer combinations to be done on the server, to simplify the client

Tina Holmboe: I prefer combinations to be done on the server, to simplify the client ←

14:54:43 <Steven> Steven: Why does it matter as long as the effect is the same?

Steven Pemberton: Why does it matter as long as the effect is the same? ←

14:55:02 <alessio_> example with google feed reader: http://labs.iwa.it/xhtml2/test-frames-1.xml#src(f1=http://labs.iwa.it/blog/,f2=http://labs.iwa.it/apps/googlefeed/)

Alessio Cartocci: example with google feed reader: http://labs.iwa.it/xhtml2/test-frames-1.xml#src(f1=http://labs.iwa.it/blog/,f2=http://labs.iwa.it/apps/googlefeed/) ←

14:56:56 <Steven> Steven: Take XForms, which can be implemented equally on the server or the client

Steven Pemberton: Take XForms, which can be implemented equally on the server or the client ←

14:57:13 <Steven> ... as long as it appears the same for the author and the user, it should be OK

... as long as it appears the same for the author and the user, it should be OK ←

14:58:39 <Steven> Roland: We want to make it as easy as possible for the author to achieve the effects needed

Roland Merrick: We want to make it as easy as possible for the author to achieve the effects needed ←

14:58:50 <Steven> ... we should keep that in mind

... we should keep that in mind ←

15:02:04 <Steven> Roland: Why does your example only workj in 2 browsers?

Roland Merrick: Why does your example only work in 2 browsers? ←

15:02:11 <Steven> s/j//

15:02:38 <Steven> Alessio: IE needs transformation, it doesn't read the XML right

Alessio Cartocci: IE needs transformation, it doesn't read the XML right ←

15:02:56 <Steven> ... Opera doesn't recognise the object

... Opera doesn't recognise the object ←

15:03:39 <Zakim> -Alessio

Zakim IRC Bot: -Alessio ←

15:03:56 <alessio_> sorry, I'm reconnecting

Alessio Cartocci: sorry, I'm reconnecting ←

15:04:14 <Steven> Steven: On my Opera it is the object that is working, and the iframe not

Steven Pemberton: On my Opera it is the object that is working, and the iframe not ←

15:04:43 <alessio_> let me see

Alessio Cartocci: let me see ←

15:05:19 <Steven> Roland: Anyone looked at OpenAjax? They are using iframes

Roland Merrick: Anyone looked at OpenAjax? They are using iframes ←

15:05:30 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←

15:05:33 <Steven> gregory: Yes, they are using ARIA, but I will look more

Gregory Rosmaita: Yes, they are using ARIA, but I will look more ←

15:05:44 <Steven> zakim, [IP is Alessio

zakim, [IP is Alessio ←

15:05:52 <Zakim> +Alessio; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Alessio; got it ←

15:05:56 <alessio_> thx steven

Alessio Cartocci: thx steven ←

15:08:27 <Steven> Yam: What is the definition of the bookmark?

Unknown Yam: What is the definition of the bookmark? ←

15:10:19 <Steven> [discussion]

[discussion] ←

15:10:25 <Steven> Roland: AOB?

Roland Merrick: AOB? ←

15:10:53 <Steven> Topic: AOB

10. AOB

15:11:07 <Zakim> -Alessio

Zakim IRC Bot: -Alessio ←

15:11:25 <Steven> Shane: In the CURIE comments, the Forms comments asked for something I missed

Unknown Shane: In the CURIE comments, the Forms comments asked for something I missed ←

15:11:43 <Zakim> +??P31

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P31 ←

15:11:52 <alessio_> zakim, ??P31 is Alessio

Alessio Cartocci: zakim, ??P31 is Alessio ←

15:11:52 <Zakim> +Alessio; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Alessio; got it ←

15:12:21 <Steven> ... that XML languages that don't use namespaces shouldn't be required to use xmlns

... that XML languages that don't use namespaces shouldn't be required to use xmlns ←

15:12:34 <Steven> ... so I have changed the language to fix that

... so I have changed the language to fix that ←

15:12:35 <oedipus> sounds good shane

Gregory Rosmaita: sounds good shane ←

15:12:39 <Steven> ... CURIE draft today

... CURIE draft today ←

15:12:46 <Steven> [ADJOURN]

[ADJOURN] ←

15:12:58 <Zakim> -ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: -ShaneM ←

15:12:59 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita

Zakim IRC Bot: -Gregory_Rosmaita ←

15:12:59 <Zakim> -Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven ←

15:13:01 <Zakim> -yamx

Zakim IRC Bot: -yamx ←

15:13:01 <Zakim> -Roland

Zakim IRC Bot: -Roland ←

15:13:02 <Zakim> -Tina

Zakim IRC Bot: -Tina ←

15:13:02 <Zakim> -Alessio

Zakim IRC Bot: -Alessio ←

15:13:03 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()4:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: IA_XHTML2()4:00AM has ended ←

15:13:05 <Zakim> Attendees were Roland, ShaneM, Tina, Steven, yamx, Gregory_Rosmaita, Alessio, +46.7.08.55.aaaa, [IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Roland, ShaneM, Tina, Steven, yamx, Gregory_Rosmaita, Alessio, +46.7.08.55.aaaa, [IPcaller] ←

15:13:07 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

15:13:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-xhtml-minutes.html Steven ←

Formatted by CommonScribe