Education and Outreach Working Group Teleconference

15 Nov 2013


The Action Item check indicated progress on some items but also showed that a few tasks were stalled. Jan, Anthony, and Paul agreed to spend time next week on Easy Checks and Wayne will follow up with CSU San Diego about meeting rooms for a possible EO F2F at the CSUN conference in March. In the discussion of Easy Chacks, the group determined the following:

AnnaBelle discussed the changes she had made to the specs for the Illustrations regarding background colors and line height. The group approved but wanted to hold off final approval for Shawn's input. The general EO meeting adjourned and the smaller ATAG Outreach sub group discussed that the first step in developing the message is the "Elevator Pitch" that ties ATAG to WCAG; the importance of holding off on recruiting testers until we have a testing process in place; the need to include a category for implementors; and the outreach efforts already underway. We reiteriated the need to make a clear connection between ATAG and WCAG. Sharron reminded the subgroup participants that Easy Checks must still be the priority. The meeting adjourned.


  1. Action items, short term in wiki - review status of all
  2. Easy Checks
  3. ATAG outreach plan


Andrew, Anthony, AnnaBelle, Bim, Jan, Paul, Sharron, Wayne
Vicki, Shawn, Shadi, Denis, Helle, Sylvie
Jan, Wayne


Action Item Check-In

<Sharron> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Action_Items

Sharron: OK, let's see here...Andrew is all caught up, Annabelle is

AnnaBelle:I would like to wrap up the first item before starting the other two.

Anthony:Am still working on the easy checks - should be able to get the comments done by Wednesday.

Sharron:Yes Will discuss easy checks during the next part of the agenda, so bring up the alt text not replacing text

Paul: Will be spending time on easy checks today, too.

Sharron: And I still have items in progress that still need to be addressed and need follow-up.

Wayne: EO face-to-face at CSUN - I am planning to talk to people at CSU to see if we can get a room - will get this done this week.
... have worked with Sharron to draft ATAG outreach language. Need to work with Suzette as well.

<paulschantz> Wayne, I can talk to Center on Disability folks about getting a room for a F2F at CSUN in 2014. I see them every day :-)

Easy Checks Wiki Page

<Sharron> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Easy_Checks

Sharron: Shawn wants us to look through the comments and see if there is anything that we need to discuss.
... Once we added the instructions, we were not going to make any additional changes until we do usability testing. Is that everyone's understanding?

Andrew: yes - that is my understanding

<Andrew> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Easy_Checks#Background

Sharron: Definition of screen reader - please read the comments
... Easy Checks - under "background"
... Bim - can you share your perspective?

Bim: In my experience, people with Dyslexia, use screen readers in the same way that people who are blind or visually impaired. I don't think think we should separate and categorize by disability type

Sharron: Instead of associating the different technologies to specific disabilities, maybe we should make the distinction in other ways.

Wayne: I use NVDA - and I don't like the keyboard commands because I am primarily a mouse user, but the screen reader interprets the accessibility API better than other types of technologies
... There is a lot of functionality in screen readers that are not available in other technologies.

Andrew I wonder if Jan is try to differentiate JAWS from Read and Write Gold and from something like 'browsealoud' as used on http://health.gov.au/ If so, it seems it could be useful to distinguish between three levels of the products.

Jan:Andrew, will you write a summary in IRC of the three categories?

Jan: then I can use that to try to write a better distinction for further discussion by the group.

Andrew: will put action items into the wiki

<Andrew> fully-featured screen readers (e.g. JAWS) vs more simple screen readers (e.g. Read and Write Gold) vs embedded text readers (e.g. BowseAloud)

Wayne: If you make a page accessible, then it is automatically accessible to a screen reader whereas text-to-speech (TTS) readers may or may not be able to access a WCAG 2.0 accessible sites
... What prompted the question about screen reader vs TTS?

Jan: IMS Global's APIP standard - test developers are building accessibility into test items and are sometimes confusing the functionality of a screen reader vs. the functionality of TTS.

Sharron: Moving on, the next marked item is to finish the instructions for contrast - just put the link in IRC - not sure who is supposed to do this - am a little confused about what we are supposed to do here.

<Sharron> http://www.w3.org/WAI/eval/preliminary#contrastiewat

Paul: I was working on this, but think they may want some pictures included, but was not asked to get screen shots, so I am not certain.

Sharron: AnnaBelle - this one may come your way.

AnnaBelle: Do you want me to add this to the wiki?

Sharron: Yes please.

AnnaBelle: Okay - I will do that.

Andrew: This is a fairly technical job ... the Juicy Studio test doesn't necessarily tell you what the problem is

Sharron: The Firefox tool is more helpful in that it gives numbers.
... None of us on the call know the way to get from the table errors to where it is on the web page - we are of the opinion that the instructions need an illustration to make them more clear.

Resize Text

Sharron: Do we add the suggestion from Suzette?
... IE only does page zoom and not text zoom, right?
... Wayne, did you work on this one?

<Sharron> http://www.w3.org/WAI/eval/preliminary#resize

<Andrew> IE does text resize (large / largest) in IE10

Wayne: I have used IE10 - the only way to enlarge only the text is to go into Internet Options and set the text to "largest" and that is not 200%.

<Andrew> IE10: view / text size / largest

Wayne: Not sure what is triggering the screen to be larger when the mouse is moved.

Sharron: What do we need to tell people to do?

AnnaBelle: This is such a moving target

Sharron: How should we resolve this? It might not be possible to distinguish between the browsers.

Wayne: Going to check the text size in IE10 right now.

<my9pv> what about ctrl + / - option ?

Wayne: Text size is not 200% when choosing largest text size through Internet Options.

Sharron: There is not a text-only zoom option in IE?

Wayne: You can modify the text size, but you cannot modify it by 200%.

Sharron: There is not a text-only zoom in IE like there is in other browsers.
... If you want to test text resize, you have to test in a browser other than IE.
... Maybe we should just leave IE out of the instructions so that we don't confuse things.

<Anthony> yes we shouldnt be browser specific

Andrew: No - we should leave it in with qualifications. Remember, these are easy checks, so it is likely that someone will have IE and they can at least do a partial test.
... Maybe we need to find out what the percentage increase is that we get in IE when we set the text size to largest.

<paulschantz> I agree with Andrew, 200% text increase test is not possible without plug-ins on some browsers

Sharron: Leave it in with the qualification.

Wayne: I will measure the magnification and let the group know.

Andrew: Adding an action item for Wayne ... how many Ctrl+ needs to be done, etc.

Wayne: Will measure that this weekend.

Sharron: That will give us some progress, but we are still not solving all the problems.
... Does the mouse wheel zoom?

Wayne: No - it doesn't

AnnaBelle: IE is below Chrome in world-wide usage - it is above Firefox

Andrew:Anthony, can you clarify in IRC what you were saying about the mouse wheel scroll?

Anthony: I am trying it now and it seems to work, it does zoom the text.

<Sharron> Suggested by Suzette to add Text only zoom is thus "control key AND shift key with + key all at the same time". I recommend we add this as an extra line to step 2.

Sharron: Suzette suggested that we add instructions to step two for how to test in Safari and Firefox.

Sharron:Proposal is to omit "Shift" from the FF instruction since it is NOT needed with a numeric keypad and is the ONLY way to type + when using non-numeric keys.

<AnnaBelle> +1

<Andrew> +1

<Bim> +1

<paulschantz> +1

<my9pv> +1

group: we don't need the shift .

Andrew:A common problem is the text is in images and it doesn't get bigger.

Wayne:Text in images does not enlarge in text only zoom.

<Andrew> +1 to wayne

Sharron: Responding to Emmanuelle's comment on text embedded in images, I will put that change in the wiki

Sharron:And the suggestion was made to add a preface "There are two ways to put text on a web page....images of text and actual text"

Sharron: The suggestion has been made to remove the Forms section from easy Checks because they are not easy and the checks do not give definitive results. However, I feel like forms are so important and have the potential to introduce so many barriers that we should find a way to include them, even if we qualify what can be determined.

Wayne: Question to Sylvie about embedded labels not being supported on IE6 with an old version of JAWS?
... This is in Easy Checks and other documentation. Wayne feels like this is an undue burden on developers.
... Can Sylvie look this up and give feedback to Wayne?
... Seems to him that we are asking developers to make accommodations for old technology.
... Will send an email to Sylvie with the text he wants her to review.

Sharron: Wayne, if you can find another way to do the easy check without the Label For, then we should include it.

Wayne: Andrew, please make an action item for Wayne to look at embedded forms.
... JAWS doesn't work well on IE6 with embedded labels

Sharron: Tools look for "label for," so that is one way. But it would be great if we could point to another easy way to check for embedded labels.

<Andrew> +1 to Sharron and needing to include forms

Sharron:But I am afraid the issues are quite complex and don't want to make decisions without Suzette and Shawn. Shall we table the forms discussion?

<AnnaBelle> +1 to tabling forms discussion

Title of "Plain Text Display"

Sharron:Anyone have updates, strong feelings, ideas about the title for this section? If not now, think about it and put comments in wiki.


<Sharron> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Easy_Checks_-_Illustrations

<AnnaBelle> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/eval/checks#illustrationeg1

<AnnaBelle> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Easy_Checks_-_Illustrations#Version_7

AnnaBelle:Please take a look at the revised background color. Shawn did not like the white, is the new background color OK?

<Sharron> All: yes

AnnaBelle: Meeting Wednesday 3:30 PST on images

AnnaBelle:Shawn has asked for illustrations documentation. Does anyone know what is the standard practice for that?..and we are looking for comments on illustrations. Are line-heights sufficient?

<Sharron> Andrew: What you have done documenting the CSS and code, add in a comment to map the code to the various types of illustrations

Andrew: Add in a client ... to be case specific.

Sharron: Shawn wants more documentation and I think we can agree that the graphics AnnaBelle has done are very helpful.
... The last 30 minutes today are to be used for an ATAG meeting.
... If there isn't anything else on the illustrations, then we will adjourn the EO meeting and start the ATAG meeting. Is that okay?

<Sylvie> Hi, I am here and muted!

<Sharron> adjourn EO and begin ATAG outreach sub group meeting

ATAG outreach

<Sharron> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Outreach_for_ATAG_2.0#Proposed_Messages_for_Specific_Audiences

Sharron: Jeanne was thrilled that ATAG has made it to candidate recommendation.
... Now they are ready to move toward getting tool makers on board to start using the ATAG guidelines.
... Did everyone get the notes that were sent out?

Jan, Paulyes - I got them

Sharron: Shawn suggested that we communcicate about ATAG work on the list so that it's archived.

Jan:For us newbies, please send an email out with a link to the archived place where the ATAG minutes will be stored

<paulschantz> I think it should be on the list

Paul: Jeanne gave us a special code, so our minutes may be under ATAG minutes

Andrew: What was the date of the last meeting?

<paulschantz> ah well then I'm probably looking at something else!

Sharron: It was Wednesday, November 13th.
... here in the US - Thursday morning for Australia.

<Andrew> http://www.w3.org/2013/11/14-eo-minutes

Andrew: Found the minutes - Jeanne was in China for the conference.

Sharron: Jeanne feels that the elevator pitch is most important right now.

Wayne: We want to get the main point across that ATAG facilitates WCAG - they are not separate entities. ATAG is the facilitator of WCAG.
... This needs to be the theme of the elevator pitch. This needs to be part of the new version of the overview.
... Now that ATAG is in candidate review, we can take all the ATAG 1 stuff out of the overview.
... If we adjust the overview, then it can become our elevator pitch.
... ATAG facilitates WCAG

<Andrew> We currently have: Currently ATAG 2.0 is a mature draft and we expect that it will not change significantly. We recommend that you use the ATAG 2.0 draft in most cases, understanding that it might change.

Sharron: Andrew, what Wayne was asking you to dig out are references like we had in WCAG. Something like WCAG 1 still being the official standard, but WCAG 2 is the one we want you to start using.
... We need to find the old WCAG overview page.

Andrew: I will dig around and see what I can find.

Sharron: Maybe Shawn's action item can be to provide the overview of WCAG when WCAG 2 was in candidate overview. Jeanne wants to model this for ATAG.
... ATAG is not as controversial as WCAG was, so that will help.
... We can work on the elevator pitch.
... We tasked Andrew with drafting a Wiki page for just the overview while he was absent from the meeting.

Wayne: We tasked Andrew with that because he is a fluent speaker of W3

Sharron: Everyone - please skim the audiences page now
... Scan the categories - see if there are any that have been left out or need to be added.

Andrews: one monster group is "integraters" they take your authoring tool and integrate it into your environment and make it inaccessible in the process.

Wayne: We want them to make their tool not break conformance with ATAG.

Sharron: Goal is to get them not to break it.
... Message would include awareness of new accessibility features that are being built into some of the tools.

Andrew: For example, recently had the experience that an integrator installed software, then they realized that the integrator had turned off something that was needed for assistive technology to work.

<Sharron> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Outreach_for_ATAG_2.0#Integrators

Sharron: From the group - please go through the target audiences and think about the messaging that each group will need so that we can determine how to get it into the elevator pitch.

Wayne: Drupal and Moodle have connected with the ATAG group and they are willing to cooperate.

Sharron: It is important to be clear with messaging so that these authoring tool vendors can understand how to contribute

Wayne: I have a good connection with Word Press

<Andrew> http://make.wordpress.org/accessibility/

Sharron: What are you saying to them - maybe we can use some of that language.

Wayne: I will look in email and send out some of the text.

<Andrew> http://make.wordpress.org/accessibility/get-involved-with-the-make-wordpress-accessible-team/

Sharron: Jan said she would do some research of companies to develop a list of contacts.
... In the meantime, the rest of us should look at the messaging.

Andrew: Work on the framework for the overview page.

Sharron: will talk to Jeanne about what we are planning to do.

Andrew: Companies may claim compliance, but we will need a group of volunteers to validate the claims.

Sharron: We need assurance of the skill level of the people who are doing the testing.
... All of us doing the validation must follow the same process for testing.
... I will reach out to Jeanne about testing

Paul: When we request that other people get involved with our activities, we have a lot of enthusiasm, but we may not know how to help them get going.

Sharron: It can be hard to have specific things for people to do as volunteers.
... Before we do outreach, we need to understand from Jeanne exactly what the process is.
... We need to identify and invite appropriate people - that is what we all need to be thinking about.
... There are companies and there are people in universities that can also do this - we need to think of other possibilities.

Paul: I work at CSUN and I work with people in other environments.

Sharron: Right, that is why Paul would be the perfect person to think about who to reach out to and possibly how to reach out to them.

Paul: Maybe do a presentation at CSUN about this.

Sharron: Yes - good idea and may be good timing too because test protocols might be in place.

Andrew: I have sent the call for atag implementations to several local CMS developers and gotten some interest

Sharron: That's great, thanks Andrew. And, for all of us working on ATAG, we must remember that Easy Checks are still the top priority. Hope we have time to spend on both.

... Everyone have a great weekend. Meeting adjourned.

Summary of Action Items

[End of minutes]

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