SVG Working Group Teleconference -- 16 Feb 2012

<trackbot> Date: 16 February 2012

<scribe> scribenick: ChrisL

transforms

<shepazu> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-transforms/

krit: main differnce is syntax between svg and css, proposed an extended parser algorithm to deal with both
... erik was in support

shepazu: could yousummarise how it could be integrated and what the changes are?

krit: we allow more spaces instead of commas, for example

<ed> http://www.w3.org/mid/8996DBAE-9FE2-44D6-9B9B-B0E4CC05A7E6@adobe.com <-- that's the proposal

krit: also rotate with three arguments with a coordinate. css does not support this they worry about conflict with existing html/css implementations
... boris suggested that only svg would allow the three arguments

shepazu: so for css transforms you specify a transform origin

krit: no, it affects the whole stack

ChrisL: so you need to translate, rotate, and translate back

shepazu: talking to css conent creators, they were frustrated at the lack of transform origin for a particular transform

krit: yes but in a list how would you do that
... would need a transform-origin list and it would need to be the same length

shepazu: so the transform origin is different for svg elements

krit: some images in current spec show how these work together

Tav: could use more examples

krit: does not make sense to publish 3d without 2d so we should continue with the merged spec
... no blocking issues from svg

shepazu: so current plan of action is to move forward on joint 2d and 3d transforms

krit: 3 point rotate might not be needed for html. parser issues are now dealt with
... so want a resolution on the parser syntax

ChrisL: it looked good to me

(general agreement)

resolution: adopt dirks' svg parser proposal for transform syntax in svg

shepazu: after that is incorporated, we should publish to /TR
... change of shortname means its a fpwd despite being published previously
... so sotd needs to explain relationship to previous spec
... svg 2d transforms, css 2d transforms (both already published).
... so push current spec to fpwd than modify in place the other two with obseletion notices
... so i propse we resolve to do that

<ed> s/current spec/current spec - http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-transforms/

krit: at CSS WG meeting yesterday it was clear that everyone wanted to push forward the merged specification and go to last call on it quickly

shepazu: yes, so it needs to go to fpwd

resolution: svgwg agees to publish the css3 merged transform spec as fpwd

shepazu: we should devote a significant amount of css and svg telcons to getting this out the door
... if there are issues, lets solve them

tav: status of 3d impl for svg?

(not yet)

ChrisL: can still write tests

shepazu: spec is well enough written that its clear how to write tests

tav: there are some unclear places

shepazu: test help there too

<scribe> ACTION: erik to inform css wg of our resolution and asking them to resolve likewise [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/02/16-svg-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3238 - Inform css wg of our resolution and asking them to resolve likewise [on Erik Dahlström - due 2012-02-23].

ChrisL: spec has boilerplate autogenerated so it only mentins css wg not svg wg. an oversight I am sure

shepazu: comments should go to fxtf

cyril: don't want to read all of www-style to get the comments

shepazu: its easy to follow a link to join a mailing list, for people interested.

krit: css3-transforms keyword in subject

cyril: but people are not consistent

shepazu: mailto link can contain the subject "[css3-transforms]"

svg attrs to presentation attrs

ed: no-one from microsoft here
... pinged them but no response

cyril: we can't wait for them for ever

krit: spec needs an editor

ed: we could merge into svg2
... if we dont have a main editor for a smaller draft then its faster to merge

krit: can't edit at the moment due to other commitments

ChrisL: earlier draft had a lot of motivational material and rationale which is not needed now we have decided, though it was useful early on

krit: it should be a module because the css transforms spec can reference it later

cyril: ask Brian as he is working on the web animation module
... he has worked on common model and syntax and we resolved that in Sydney

rik: myself, brian, shane from google and alex danilo are working on this. couple of meetings an hour
... wiki pages on w3.org for it

ed: so we still want a separate module or to put it in svg2?
... or make it a separate chapter?

ChrisL: no opinion either way, just want it to get done

ed: in fx or in svg?

ChrisL: unclear

ed: i have an action to make a draft, was expecting to hand it over to patrick. makes sense to have someone from Microsoft as the main editor
... think the spec fits better in svg as its all about svg properties

ChrisL: surely if a 1.1 attr is an svg2 property then the description needs to be updated

krit: we have some peoperty names, need to be sure the property type is the same as the datatype

ed: so for general principle, we still need to resolve some issues like dom animval. wait for feedback from our developers on that

<ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/fx/wiki/SVG_attribute_to_presentation_attribute

ed: order of stylesheets etc

krit: graphic is wrong, will republish this evening

ed: prefer to wait until we get feedback

krit: also getting feedback on impact on mozilla, webkit, microsoft on impact on current implementations. erik your comment is missing

ed: wil have feedback from dev team by next week
... anything else on this topic?

cabanier: the color-interpolation-filters could wait until next week, after getting more feedback

process for editing svg2

<ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JanMar/0070.html

<ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Editing_Process

ed: so if you own a feature you edit it, main editors czan edit the whole document

cyril: seems to say if you dont own a feature you can't edit it
... also good to annotate who owns which bit so its clear who to contact

ChrisL: proposal is inconsistent on substantive changes made 'unilaterally' by the editors

tav: so i made changes in radial gradients related to border focus point. under this i would have to find the feature owner and ask them to do it

cyril: well, you would be the owner in that case

krit: can there be more than one owner of a section

ed: over time I'm sure there will be overlap

Tav: strict rules good at the end but slow us down at the start

krit; so the main editors are guardians on whether a change should be rolled out

ed: good to have someone to drive a feature and good to have some main editors, tav has played that role.

krit: editorship can change, too

ed; prefer to have heycam to explain the rationale a bit more

(krit leaves)

<cyril> s/amin/main/

cyril: lets revisit when cameron is here

hamburg f2f

<ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Hamburg_2012

ed: pleae register

<ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Hamburg_2012/agenda_proposals <-- you know what to do :)

ChrisL: not got flights (or travel authorisation) worked out yet. i see hotels are filling up though

<vhardy_> Kind reminder to book your hotel. As mentioned on email, we only have holds for a few more days.

ed: arriving same day as brian, staying at clipper

cyril: as will i

<vhardy_> vhardy: I will stay at the East

ChrisL: unclear on date and length of joint meeting

ed: its the 9th, morning at least

cyril: not enough for transforms, animations ....

<vhardy_> vhardy: could make it the whole day?

ed: need writeupsd and prep for those topics

+1 for whole day

ed: plan to have updated filters spec
... will confirm with css chairs about ful day

<scribe> ACTION: erik to check with css chairs that a full day joint meeting is okay [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/02/16-svg-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3239 - Check with css chairs that a full day joint meeting is okay [on Erik Dahlström - due 2012-02-23].

ed: are there enough here to fo more svg2 requirements?

svg2 requirements

cyril: some of them are easy.
... lets do the xml events

<cyril> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#Progress_Events_loadstart.2C_progress.2C_loadend

ChrisL: is this progress events that j-c duford was editing? does it conflict with html5 progress events/

cyril: use case is download progress bar

ChrisL: agree on requirement but prefer the html5 solution

cyril; ok for me

http://tiffanybbrown.com/2010/07/05/the-html5-video-progress-event/

http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/the-iframe-element.html#the-video-element

cyril: looks to be much the same as the svg one. no brainer, adopt theirs

resolved: accept progress events requirement and adopt html5 method for this

<cyril> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#The_SVGTimer_event

topic; svg timer event

ed: think we should drop it. no sense to have an svg specific interface for timers

cyril; is there an html5 equivalent or are people using settimeout

ed; or request animation frame

cyril: can do declarative animation and look at the repeat event also
... fine with dropping it

resolution svg2 will not have the svg timer event

The MouseWheel event

ed: reference dom3 evvents for thsi

ChrisL: is i in dom3 - about to be dropped?

ed: no
... but we need to have the event

resolved: svg2 will support the mousewheel event as defined in the DOM specifications

Modified sections for hit testing, event processing

<cyril> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/single-page.html#svgudom-events__MouseWheelEvent

(we look for links)

http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/single-page.html#interact-PointerEventsProperty

some stuff on hit testing of text

ed: and bounding box value
... should port over

reolved: svg2 will adopt improved svgt1.2 text on hit testing and event processing

resolved: svg2 will adopt improved svgt1.2 text on hit testing and event processing

XML Events

ChrisL; drop the entire feature

resolution: svg2 will adopt improved svgt1.2 text on hit testing and event processing

ed: no need for xml events. could make a seperate module but prefer the existing on-* attrs

cyril: it was a good thing, too bad it was not adopted
... what other declarative wat to create or monitor events?
... animations plus script

cyril; and can register a dom listener in script

scribe: ok to not support it

resolution: svg2 will not support xml events

New Linking features

ed: reference restrictions good, needs tweak for svg2 features
... different restrictions in 1.1 and 1.2T

ChrisL: Processing External References is good clarifying text

uses more up to date language than the sloppy language in 1.1

ed: yes
... again not exactly but a section like that

resolution: svg2 will adopt the improved wording on Processing External References and Reference Restrictions

ed: needs more work for external references

(adjourned)

- DRAFT -

SVG Working Group Teleconference

16 Feb 2012

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