See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 07 October 2010
<janina> OK, I'll dial in
<MikeSmith> congrats to Drupal project
<oedipus> EZ: drupal 7 finally has a beta release -- a lot of work went into making D7 more accessible
<oedipus> EZ: will be an upgrade patch for D7 beta1 from D6
<oedipus> Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
<richardschwerdtfe> scribe: Rich
<oedipus> action-59?
<trackbot> ACTION-59 -- Michael(tm) Smith to check into making it possible for any HTML WG member to post to the a11y TF list -- due 2010-09-16 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/59
<MikeSmith> have not done that yet
<inserted> scribenick: richardschwerdtfe
Mike: the only way to do this is
to manually add the address of everybody from the HTML working
group to the accept list of the accessibility task force
mailing list
... this means that anyone from the HTML working group wants to
be able to post
MikeC: We should add people on request only
Mike: We can add case by case
<oedipus> it came up in several bug comments - charter currently says use public-pfwg-comments which is for PF deliverables
janina: We would not like to clutter up the PF comments list with discussion
MikeC: we could make this a world writable list
oedipus: there were people
commenting on people with disabilities and their needs
... Paul Cotton made a comment on behalf of the chairs that
they would like a public list
John: the real problem as Gregory states is that we are getting this traffic on bugzilla
<MikeSmith> did we rule out the public-html-comments list already?
Rich: agrees it is out of hand
<MichaelC> close action-59
<trackbot> ACTION-59 Check into making it possible for any HTML WG member to post to the a11y TF list closed
<oedipus> action-60?
<trackbot> ACTION-60 -- Sean Hayes to map WACG A, AA, and AAA against our checklist -- due 2010-09-22 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/60
<MichaelC> close action-60
<trackbot> ACTION-60 Map WACG A, AA, and AAA against our checklist closed
<oedipus> action-62?
<trackbot> ACTION-62 -- Gregory Rosmaita to - prepare detailed bugs against accesskey in HTML5, bugs seeking restoration of elements of accesskey from HTML4 that work and are deployed; will identify clearly whether bug refers to HTML4 or HTML5; in preparation for preparing spec ready text for accesskey; will tease out the issues pertaining to @tabindex and COMMAND element -- due 2010-09-23 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/62
RESOLUTION: Action 60 closed
<MichaelC> close action-62
<trackbot> ACTION-62 - prepare detailed bugs against accesskey in HTML5, bugs seeking restoration of elements of accesskey from HTML4 that work and are deployed; will identify clearly whether bug refers to HTML4 or HTML5; in preparation for preparing spec ready text for accesskey; will tease out the issues pertaining to @tabindex and COMMAND element closed
RESOLUTION: Action 62 closed
<MichaelC> close action-63
<trackbot> ACTION-63 Create a bug on Content navigation by content structure closed
<MichaelC> close action-64
<trackbot> ACTION-64 File a bug on HTML 5 for Content Navigation by Content Structure due 20101001 closed
RESOLUTION: Action 63 closed
<oedipus> action-65
<oedipus> action-65?
<trackbot> ACTION-65 -- Judy Brewer to will review threads on getting spec text in -- due 2010-10-06 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/65
Mike: I will tag those all as media
Janina: Do we want bugzilla to continue to go to the html task force mailing list
oedipus: I think it is a good thing
Janina: should we post bugzilla reports to a different list other than the task force
<oedipus> agree with JF -- there are too many HTML5-oriented lists already
jfoliot: too many lists
RESOLUTION: No We do not want to take bugzilla output off the html accessibility task force list
janina: what to do to prevent from being burried?
Rich: how about a phone call instead of thousandes of one and two sentence posts?
<JF> +1 to MichaelC's idea
michaelC: we can tie the back end database to the HTML working group but we would lose our walled garden
JF: who do we want to open this to?
cynthia: We do not want to open it up to the world
michaelC: If we take the approach I suggested we open it up our walled garden to the entire HTML working group list
oedipus: I think the most vocal people have been added
cynthia: They can just ask to be added
JF: Benjamin Hawkes Louis and
Shelly Powers are interested. BHL has been added
... Either you are member of the working group or you are
not
RRSAgent: make log member
RRSAgent make log world
janina: we want to say why we want a separate list. It is not to exclude people but to simply manage the traffic
<MikeSmith> good by me
<oedipus> plus 1
janina: without a better suggesion we will just be repeating ourselves
<kliehm> I'll be at TPAC
janina: a fair amount of interest about doing something about our issues such as Thurs and Friday when they talk about media issues
<kliehm> Alas only November 3-5.
janina: of the group here who will be at TPAC?
<JF> <crickets>
janina: Michael, Martin, Cynthia, Janina
kliehm: I would like to have a talk on canvas 3D accessibility in a lightning talk
michaelc: are you referring to the plenary day?
kliehm: who would like to be in the lightning talk?
michaelc: lightning talks are
like 2-3 minutes
... it is a great opportunity if you can compress it into this
time
janina: we could wet the interest in the plenary and discuss Thursday and Friday
cynthia: should be able to get over passport issues
janina: anyone else?
oedipus: I will attend
virtually
... I have Mike Smith's skype address
janina: I would like this to be
short
... we want to ask for a reconsideration or a protest
... the sentiment is that this is not a done deal.
... there are some proposals on the table in terms of HTML
5
... I am aware that in PF and the Birmingham Face to Face is
that we could do an aria based describedby pointing to the
URI
... We are looking at a 2.0 or taking a short list of issues
for ARIA 1.1.
<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Verbose_desc_reqs http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Talk:Verbose_desc_reqs HTML WG Bug 10853: HTML5 lacks a verbose description mechanism: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10853
<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Verbose_desc_reqs
janina: we have two issues we could do in ARIA 1.1
<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Talk:Verbose_desc_reqs
<oedipus> HTML WG Bug 10853: HTML5 lacks a verbose description mechanism: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10853
janina: this is host language
agnostic
... let's throw out some ideas
... let's bring longdesc back now that we have meat our October
31 deadline
oedipus: I have opened bug 10853 on the generic concept of a verbose descriptor
<JF> +q
oedipus: we could put in a native describedby
<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Verbose_desc_reqs
<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Verbose_desc_reqs#Satisfying_These_Requirements_for_HTML5
cynthia: do we want a mechanism like this to be around?
<oedipus> GJR says we addressed this over a year and a half ago - it is the HTML WG's failure to accomodate our requests/requirements
janina: there seems to be a lot of interest around to keep it
cynthia: I don't know there is a consensus to escalate a bug
JF: I don't think is the most important thing we need to do
<JF> http://www.d.umn.edu/~lcarlson/research/ld.html
JF: Laura Carlson has been
continuing to post the research but did get frustrated
... we all know the list
... we believe that we have to address backward
compatibility
<Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to say that politically, we can't allow chairs to simply remove something previously added for a11y without them proposing an alternate mechanism
cynthia: I want to make sure we have concensus going forward
<JF> +1 to GJR
oedipus: this is a bigger issue than just one element
<MikeSmith> janina, note richardschwerdtfe on the queue
<oedipus> RS: this is a general strategy discussion -- concerned about wasting cycles adding elements into HTML where ARIA already suffices; we can address this issue -- describedby can be discussed out-of-context -- so many other things to work on -- wouldn't open new bugs for things supported by ARIA -- if can get 1.0 out the door, doing ARIA 1.1 would be place for changes/development
<JF> will ARIA 1.1 be ready by the time HTML5 reaches CR?
<inserted> scribenick: oedipus
JS: HTML chairs have taken up our
resolution and chaals' --
... how to rephrase or drop or synthesize
... adom is history - so no queries on adom
CS: adom is in the spec
... adom in spec and in major UA
RS: when have DOM have to have
1-to-1 mapping to user interface
... second option: @nonav -- if only way subtree is used, then
we are done
CS: @nonav is nice to have but not a priority
RS: think we got what we
want
... third issue: what to do with chaals' proposal - whoever
drives this, has to be prepared to be in month-long (at least)
fight with editor on getting IMAP in CANVAS - gives shortcuts
for automatic drawing, but question worth effort - does anyone
want to take on the battle?
CS: anyone talked to chaals?
RS: asked him to drive
through
... would leave to JS and MS to assign
JS: appropriate for him to drive
his canvas proposal
... concern is more precise: the chairs drafted set of 5
questions with which to run a survey - got sense they are not
the right 5 questions
... mechanism will be a series of questions -- need to ensure
the right questions are asked -- will start from survey
CS: questions are fine - number 4
is counter-proposal to number 1
... 1 question is "get rid of adom?" -- we should give a
resounding NO
RS: no problem with @nonav being
dropped; hixie's suggestions do nothing to address issue; is a
counter-proposal
... concern: frankO and i work on caret and select tracking -
doesn't need to be put to vote yet -- need to work out RTE
issues
... dave singer agreed -- putting up for vote bad idea
CS: too early to vote on 1
... ton of work to be done -- if say too early, chairs will say
too late -- how to convince -- what is timeline?
RS: have that issue, but hixie
asked us to create 2 more things that obfuscate issue -- want
magnification support, waiting on james graham to respond
... hixie has muddied the waters
CS: chairs trying to clear air,
rather than water
... too early to vote on magnification, when can we?
RS: can't push a canvas RTE in a week
CS: when can it be turned out?
RS: before the end of the year
CS: sounds like answer is december 2010
RS: problem: more than RTE we
need to look at -- have to support RTE and magnification
... solves problem of not having adom and nonav discussion
CS: tactically, vote on adom nonav, imap but not number 4 (hixie's suggestion)
JS: thanks for clarity CS
CS: rich, work on magnification and caret issues -- if chaals wants to push his issue that's up to him
RS: hixie's suggestion has nothing to do with magnification - what is it a counterproposal for?
CS: deals with sub-issue in number 1 about cursor tracking -- bad counter proposal, but not separate issue
RS: go for it
GJR: wonders about the form of the WBS survey - lately been negative feedback only
<JF> +q
MS: don't agree with GJR - if all
one is doing is supporting doesn't carry weight - surveys not
intended to be vote collections - supposed to contain set of
compelling arguements and objections to any given
proposal
... not intended to quash legitimate response - intended to try
and get people to consider issues as thoughtfully as
possible
JF: how did chairs decide on this?
MS: if you have something to add, can say "proposal is good" and add comments -- chairs use this for decisions
JF: if 2 proposals how presented
to chairs?
... no measure of consensus in HTML WG --
MS: don't accept that
characterization by any means
... chairs not evaluating popularity but strenghth of
argument
... what they are doing is subjective, but they have been put
into position to adjudicate decisions for group - only way HTML
WG has found for consensus-building
... limitations to survey, agreed, but not only means chairs
are using -- if read decisions, then you will see that
JF: rather see call for
consensus
... a lot of polls that want negative feedback
JS: happy to communicate concern
about survey decision policy working for best result of a11y in
HTML5
... want all to know that we have regular communications with
HTML chairs -- facillitators and domain leads meet regularly -
topic on current agenda is possible enhancements to decision
making
GJR: my concern is why didn't the chairs consider the formal advice given by PFWG on longdesc in their decision?
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