16:59:04 <scribenick> PRESENT: IanH, bijan (muted), bmotik (muted), msmith, Sandro, uli (muted), pfps, ratnesh, Zhe, baojie, Rinke, ewallace, bcuencagrau, alan_ruttenberg, Achille, Christine, Elisa, m_schnei, Carsten
17:02:42 <IanH> ScribeNick: Zhe
(Scribe set to Zhe Wu)
17:02:56 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
Ian Horrocks: zakim, who is here? ←
17:02:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see IanH, bijan (muted), bmotik (muted), msmith, Sandro, uli (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, ratnesh, Zhe, baojie, Rinke
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see IanH, bijan (muted), bmotik (muted), msmith, Sandro, uli (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, ratnesh, Zhe, baojie, Rinke ←
17:02:59 <Zakim> On IRC I see Rinke, baojie, ewallace, bcuencagrau, uli, Zhe, bmotik, RRSAgent, Zakim, msmith, IanH, ratnesh, bijan, pfps, alanr, sandro, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Rinke, baojie, ewallace, bcuencagrau, uli, Zhe, bmotik, RRSAgent, Zakim, msmith, IanH, ratnesh, bijan, pfps, alanr, sandro, trackbot ←
17:03:06 <Rinke> rrsagent, pointer?
Rinke Hoekstra: rrsagent, pointer? ←
17:03:06 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2008/10/08-owl-irc#T17-03-06
RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2008/10/08-owl-irc#T17-03-06 ←
17:03:22 <Rinke> rrsagent, make records public
Rinke Hoekstra: rrsagent, make records public ←
17:03:24 <Zhe> Topic: Admin
17:03:35 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
Ian Horrocks: zakim, who is here? ←
17:03:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see IanH, bijan (muted), bmotik (muted), msmith, Sandro, uli (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, ratnesh, Zhe, baojie, Rinke
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see IanH, bijan (muted), bmotik (muted), msmith, Sandro, uli (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, ratnesh, Zhe, baojie, Rinke ←
17:03:37 <Zakim> On IRC I see Rinke, baojie, ewallace, uli, Zhe, bmotik, RRSAgent, Zakim, msmith, IanH, ratnesh, bijan, pfps, alanr, sandro, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Rinke, baojie, ewallace, uli, Zhe, bmotik, RRSAgent, Zakim, msmith, IanH, ratnesh, bijan, pfps, alanr, sandro, trackbot ←
17:03:58 <Zakim> +[IBM]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IBM] ←
17:04:36 <Zhe> Agenda amendments.
Agenda amendments. ←
17:04:36 <Zhe> IanH: add issue 127 to the agenda
Ian Horrocks: add ISSUE-127 to the agenda ←
17:04:45 <Achille> Zakim, IBM is me
Achille Fokoue: Zakim, IBM is me ←
17:04:45 <Zakim> +Achille; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Achille; got it ←
17:04:59 <Zakim> +Evan_Wallace
Zakim IRC Bot: +Evan_Wallace ←
17:05:17 <Zakim> +??P15
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P15 ←
17:05:21 <Zhe> IanH: other suggestions?
Ian Horrocks: other suggestions? ←
17:05:37 <uli> they are a bit laconic, but what can we do
Uli Sattler: they are a bit laconic, but what can we do ←
17:05:38 <pfps> previous minutes are acceptable
Peter Patel-Schneider: previous minutes are acceptable ←
17:05:45 <Zhe> Proposed: accept previous minutes Oct 1, 2008
PROPOSED: accept previous minutes Oct 1, 2008 ←
17:05:49 <cgolbrei> zakim, +??P15 is cgolbrei
Christine Golbreich: zakim, +??P15 is cgolbrei ←
17:05:49 <Zakim> sorry, cgolbrei, I do not recognize a party named '+??P15'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, cgolbrei, I do not recognize a party named '+??P15' ←
17:06:03 <Zhe> Resolved: previous minutes accepted.
RESOLVED: previous minutes accepted. ←
17:06:11 <uli> zakim, ??P15 is cgolbrei
Uli Sattler: zakim, ??P15 is cgolbrei ←
17:06:11 <Zakim> +cgolbrei; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +cgolbrei; got it ←
17:06:12 <Zhe> Topic: Action item status
17:06:24 <Zhe> IanH: SKOS comments
Ian Horrocks: SKOS comments ←
17:06:31 <cgolbrei> zakim, ??P15 is cgolbrei
Christine Golbreich: zakim, ??P15 is cgolbrei ←
17:06:31 <Zakim> I already had ??P15 as cgolbrei, cgolbrei
Zakim IRC Bot: I already had ??P15 as cgolbrei, cgolbrei ←
17:06:44 <pfps> q+
17:06:58 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:07:17 <IanH> Alan?
Ian Horrocks: Alan? ←
17:07:20 <Zhe> IanH: action-189 review RDF Mapping
Ian Horrocks: ACTION-189 review RDF Mapping ←
17:07:34 <Zhe> IanH: suggest to Alan to drop it
Ian Horrocks: suggest to Alan to drop it ←
17:07:44 <pfps> suggest dropping 189 as overtaken by events
Peter Patel-Schneider: suggest dropping 189 as overtaken by events ←
17:07:59 <Zakim> +??P19
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P19 ←
17:08:01 <Zhe> Alan: I will do the review. So just leave it open. It does not have to be done before publishing.
Alan Ruttenberg: I will do the review. So just leave it open. It does not have to be done before publishing. ←
17:08:23 <Zhe> IanH: action-202: Alan Ruttenberg to have another try at punning proposal in the light of discussion with peter and come up with test cases
Ian Horrocks: ACTION-202: Alan Ruttenberg to have another try at punning proposal in the light of discussion with peter and come up with test cases ←
17:08:23 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/actions/202
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/actions/202 ←
17:08:40 <Zakim> -??P19
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P19 ←
17:08:44 <Zhe> Alan: Boris has a proposal worth discussion
Alan Ruttenberg: Boris has a proposal worth discussion ←
17:08:47 <bijan> It's never going to get done
Bijan Parsia: It's never going to get done ←
17:08:52 <Zhe> Resolved: close Action-202
RESOLVED: close ACTION-202 ←
17:08:56 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:08:57 <bijan> Mooted by events
Bijan Parsia: Mooted by events ←
17:09:01 <pfps> q-
17:09:02 <Zakim> +??P19
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P19 ←
17:09:08 <Bernardo> Zakim, ??P19 is me
Bernardo Cuenca Grau: Zakim, ??P19 is me ←
17:09:08 <Zakim> +Bernardo; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Bernardo; got it ←
17:09:11 <Zhe> IanH: Action-174: Bijan Parsia to provide an rdf serialization for his rich annotation proposal
Ian Horrocks: ACTION-174: Bijan Parsia to provide an rdf serialization for his rich annotation proposal ←
17:09:32 <Zhe> IanH: Action-207: Sandro Hawke to keep rdf:text publication on track
Ian Horrocks: ACTION-207: Sandro Hawke to keep rdf:text publication on track ←
17:09:32 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/actions/207
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/actions/207 ←
17:09:34 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:10:13 <Zakim> +Elisa_Kendall
Zakim IRC Bot: +Elisa_Kendall ←
17:10:14 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:10:23 <Bernardo> I did
Bernardo Cuenca Grau: I did ←
17:10:24 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:10:55 <Zhe> IanH: under the impression that not much has happended
Ian Horrocks: under the impression that not much has happended ←
17:11:03 <Zhe> sandro: it is moving.
Sandro Hawke: it is moving. ←
17:11:10 <Zhe> IanH: we will then call the action done.
Ian Horrocks: we will then call the action done. ←
17:11:20 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:11:26 <Zhe> IanH: action-227: Alan Ruttenberg to email to Elisa and other interested person about metamodel
Ian Horrocks: ACTION-227: Alan Ruttenberg to email to Elisa and other interested person about metamodel ←
17:11:26 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/actions/227
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/actions/227 ←
17:11:40 <Zhe> alanr: it is done
Alan Ruttenberg: it is done ←
17:11:45 <pfps> timeframe?
Peter Patel-Schneider: timeframe? ←
17:12:01 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:12:05 <Zhe> Alanr: is it feasible to get it done before F2F4
Alan Ruttenberg: is it feasible to get it done before F2F4 ←
17:12:33 <pfps> the clock is ticking quite fast here
Peter Patel-Schneider: the clock is ticking quite fast here ←
17:12:42 <Zhe> Elisa: Not sure. I can get the latest models from them. Some portion depends on availability of other people
Elisa Kendall: Not sure. I can get the latest models from them. Some portion depends on availability of other people ←
17:12:35 <ewallace> What tool can load this?
Evan Wallace: What tool can load this? ←
17:12:44 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:13:02 <Zhe> IanH: action-217: Jie Bao to get to the RIF to ensure that RDF changes are done properly
Ian Horrocks: ACTION-217: Jie Bao to get to the RIF to ensure that RDF changes are done properly ←
17:13:02 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/actions/217
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/actions/217 ←
17:13:32 <Zhe> Jie: I need one more week
Jie Bao: I need one more week ←
17:13:45 <Zhe> IanH: Are you confident it can be done by next week? I will then update the due date.
Ian Horrocks: Are you confident it can be done by next week? I will then update the due date. ←
17:13:55 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
17:14:05 <Zhe> Topic: Brief discussion on F2F4
17:14:09 <m_schnei> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
Michael Schneider: zakim, [IPcaller] is me ←
17:14:09 <Zakim> +m_schnei; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +m_schnei; got it ←
17:14:13 <m_schnei> zakim, mute me
Michael Schneider: zakim, mute me ←
17:14:13 <Zakim> m_schnei should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: m_schnei should now be muted ←
17:14:34 <Zhe> IanH: Now there is a draft agenda. We need to get it out later today. We may come to it if anyone has comments/suggestion on the agenda
Ian Horrocks: Now there is a draft agenda. We need to get it out later today. We may come to it if anyone has comments/suggestion on the agenda ←
17:15:06 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:15:20 <Zhe> Topic: Reviewing and Publishing
17:15:36 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
17:15:38 <Zhe> sandro: There is one more thing on the todo list. We need to fix broken links. Anyone wants to fix broken links?
Sandro Hawke: There is one more thing on the todo list. We need to fix broken links. Anyone wants to fix broken links? ←
17:15:42 <m_schnei> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
Michael Schneider: zakim, [IPcaller] is me ←
17:15:42 <Zakim> +m_schnei; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +m_schnei; got it ←
17:15:47 <m_schnei> zakim, mute me
Michael Schneider: zakim, mute me ←
17:15:47 <Zakim> m_schnei should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: m_schnei should now be muted ←
17:15:57 <bmotik> q+
Boris Motik: q+ ←
17:16:00 <bmotik> Zakim, unmute me
Boris Motik: Zakim, unmute me ←
17:16:00 <Zakim> bmotik should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bmotik should no longer be muted ←
17:16:00 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:16:15 <Zhe> Boris: what links are broken? in reference ?
Boris Motik: what links are broken? in reference ? ←
17:16:22 <Zhe> sandro: There are about 6~7 of them. Most are references. Just fix on the wiki, and run check links.
Sandro Hawke: There are about 6~7 of them. Most are references. Just fix on the wiki, and run check links. ←
17:16:50 <Zhe> Boris: I can do that
Boris Motik: I can do that ←
17:17:20 <Zhe> IanH: we are good to go then
Ian Horrocks: we are good to go then ←
17:17:39 <Zhe> sandro: I think so. I am generating another version now. Not sure if web master can publish today.
Sandro Hawke: I think so. I am generating another version now. Not sure if web master can publish today. ←
17:17:41 <alanr> q+
Alan Ruttenberg: q+ ←
17:17:47 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
Boris Motik: Zakim, mute me ←
17:17:47 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bmotik should now be muted ←
17:17:50 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:17:55 <Zhe> IanH: The expectation is to get it ready for pulibshing today.
Ian Horrocks: The expectation is to get it ready for pulibshing today. ←
17:18:00 <bmotik> q-
Boris Motik: q- ←
17:18:09 <IanH> ack alanr
Ian Horrocks: ack alanr ←
17:18:19 <Zhe> alanr: We are missing one editor comment on the conformance.
Alan Ruttenberg: We are missing one editor comment on the conformance. ←
17:18:29 <m_schnei> q+
Michael Schneider: q+ ←
17:18:33 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:18:36 <Zhe> IanH: I am not convinced when looking at the comment. Not sure if it is a problem.
Ian Horrocks: I am not convinced when looking at the comment. Not sure if it is a problem. ←
17:18:54 <m_schnei> zakim, unmute me
Michael Schneider: zakim, unmute me ←
17:18:54 <Zakim> m_schnei should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: m_schnei should no longer be muted ←
17:18:55 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:19:10 <Zakim> -Alan
Zakim IRC Bot: -Alan ←
17:19:23 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
Boris Motik: Zakim, mute me ←
17:19:23 <Zakim> bmotik was already muted, bmotik
Zakim IRC Bot: bmotik was already muted, bmotik ←
17:19:50 <Zhe> m_schnei: datatype map conformance requires at least all of the datatype from OWL 2 datatype maps
Michael Schneider: datatype map conformance requires at least all of the datatype from OWL 2 datatype maps ←
17:20:43 <Zhe> IanH: If you only use a subset, it does not make you inconsistent.
Ian Horrocks: If you only use a subset, it does not make you inconsistent. ←
17:21:06 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:21:17 <Zhe> m_schnei: I will have another look then.
Michael Schneider: I will have another look then. ←
17:21:26 <Zhe> IanH: Maybe I will put in an editor note anyway. If we agree it is ok, then we can take it out. I will do it right after the tele conf
Ian Horrocks: Maybe I will put in an editor note anyway. If we agree it is ok, then we can take it out. I will do it right after the tele conf ←
17:21:42 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:21:44 <m_schnei> zakim, mute me
Michael Schneider: zakim, mute me ←
17:21:44 <Zakim> m_schnei should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: m_schnei should now be muted ←
17:22:05 <m_schnei> works for me
Michael Schneider: works for me ←
17:22:06 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:22:13 <bmotik> q+ to ask a qustion to sandro
Boris Motik: q+ to ask a qustion to sandro ←
17:22:13 <m_schnei> q-
Michael Schneider: q- ←
17:22:18 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:22:20 <bmotik> Zakim, unmute me
Boris Motik: Zakim, unmute me ←
17:22:20 <Zakim> bmotik should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bmotik should no longer be muted ←
17:22:26 <IanH> ack bmotik
Ian Horrocks: ack bmotik ←
17:22:31 <Zakim> bmotik, you wanted to ask a qustion to sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: bmotik, you wanted to ask a qustion to sandro ←
17:22:31 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:22:33 <Zhe> bmotik: Sandro, just a brief question, is it just the Profiles needs fixing?
Boris Motik: Sandro, just a brief question, is it just the Profiles needs fixing? ←
17:22:49 <Zhe> sandro: they are all in profiles doc.
Sandro Hawke: they are all in profiles doc. ←
17:22:33 <Zakim> +Alan
Zakim IRC Bot: +Alan ←
17:22:39 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:22:46 <alanr> sorry - had to attend to something
Alan Ruttenberg: sorry - had to attend to something ←
17:23:10 <alanr> q+ to ask if someone is taking notes
Alan Ruttenberg: q+ to ask if someone is taking notes ←
17:23:14 <Zhe> sandro: It is the fragments (part after URL #)
Sandro Hawke: It is the fragments (part after URL #) ←
17:23:24 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:23:35 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
Boris Motik: Zakim, mute me ←
17:23:35 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bmotik should now be muted ←
17:23:36 <alanr> q-
Alan Ruttenberg: q- ←
17:23:40 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:23:42 <Zhe> IanH: I will add the note to the conformance
Ian Horrocks: I will add the note to the conformance ←
17:24:05 <Zhe> IanH: Is there anything else with publishing progress? Done then.
Ian Horrocks: Is there anything else with publishing progress? Done then. ←
17:24:22 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:24:22 <Zhe> IanH: Review Manchester Syntax doc
Ian Horrocks: Review Manchester Syntax doc ←
17:24:34 <Zhe> IanH: Do we want people to review?
Ian Horrocks: Do we want people to review? ←
17:24:35 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:24:48 <Zhe> pfps: It has been reviewed.
Peter Patel-Schneider: It has been reviewed. ←
17:24:56 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:24:57 <Zhe> alanr: I am not toally done. Should be done today.
Alan Ruttenberg: I am not toally done. Should be done today. ←
17:25:03 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:25:35 <pfps> There are 2.5 reviews for Manchester.
Peter Patel-Schneider: There are 2.5 reviews for Manchester. ←
17:25:46 <pfps> One significant comment - using labels instead of names.
Peter Patel-Schneider: One significant comment - using labels instead of names. ←
17:26:40 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:26:41 <Rinke> Review comment from AlanRuttenberg 05:10, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
Rinke Hoekstra: Review comment from AlanRuttenberg 05:10, 8 October 2008 (UTC) ←
17:26:41 <Rinke> The use of labels to to replace URIs is central to productive use of Manchester syntax when URIs are not meaningful, as is common in many ontologies. In addition it is often recommended that, in general, URIs not have meaninful information encoded in their strings (see e.g. http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Axioms.html). Given this and the goal of making the Manchester syntax readable and user friendly, this specification should say precisely how to use labels in
Rinke Hoekstra: The use of labels to to replace URIs is central to productive use of Manchester syntax when URIs are not meaningful, as is common in many ontologies. In addition it is often recommended that, in general, URIs not have meaninful information encoded in their strings (see e.g. http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Axioms.html). Given this and the goal of making the Manchester syntax readable and user friendly, this specification should say precisely how to use labels in ←
17:26:42 <Zhe> IanH: Regarding M Syntax, is it anything we can usefully discuss?
Ian Horrocks: Regarding M Syntax, is it anything we can usefully discuss? ←
17:27:00 <m_schnei> I don
Michael Schneider: I don ←
17:27:02 <Zhe> pfps: comment M Syntax use URI as name. Suggestion is to use rdfs:label as the name.
Peter Patel-Schneider: comment M Syntax use URI as name. Suggestion is to use rdfs:label as the name. ←
17:27:08 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:27:11 <alanr> q+
Alan Ruttenberg: q+ ←
17:27:21 <bijan> I don't understand this
Bijan Parsia: I don't understand this ←
17:27:21 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:27:25 <IanH> ack alanr
Ian Horrocks: ack alanr ←
17:27:36 <m_schnei> I don't understand this, too
Michael Schneider: I don't understand this, too ←
17:27:51 <Zhe> alanr: In the Protege, many ontologies use opaque ids or URIs. It would be more user friendly if lables are used. I think we know how to do it. I have sent email about how.
Alan Ruttenberg: In the Protege, many ontologies use opaque ids or URIs. It would be more user friendly if lables are used. I think we know how to do it. I have sent email about how. ←
17:28:34 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:28:39 <pfps> rdfs:label annotation value, not rdfs:comment annotation value
Peter Patel-Schneider: rdfs:label annotation value, not rdfs:comment annotation value ←
17:28:40 <uli> could you post a link to the email, Alan?
Uli Sattler: could you post a link to the email, Alan? ←
17:29:00 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:29:11 <Zhe> alanr: when you look at a class definition, it is not understandable from P4 (Protege)
Alan Ruttenberg: when you look at a class definition, it is not understandable from P4 (Protege) ←
17:29:14 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:29:17 <Zhe> uli: Is this an OWL or a P4/tools issue?
Uli Sattler: Is this an OWL or a P4/tools issue? ←
17:29:19 <bijan> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
17:29:22 <uli> zakim, unmute me
Uli Sattler: zakim, unmute me ←
17:29:22 <Zakim> uli should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: uli should no longer be muted ←
17:29:24 <pfps> q+
17:29:36 <alanr> I think so
Alan Ruttenberg: I think so ←
17:29:38 <Zhe> uli: are we sure this is really owl issue, but not P4 issue.
Uli Sattler: are we sure this is really owl issue, but not P4 issue. ←
17:29:41 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:29:42 <alanr> we are defining the format
Alan Ruttenberg: we are defining the format ←
17:29:46 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
17:29:46 <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should no longer be muted ←
17:29:48 <Zhe> IanH: I don't know
Ian Horrocks: I don't know ←
17:29:50 <IanH> ack uli
Ian Horrocks: ack uli ←
17:29:50 <Zakim> uli, you wanted to ask whether this is an OWL or a P4/tools issue
Zakim IRC Bot: uli, you wanted to ask whether this is an OWL or a P4/tools issue ←
17:29:55 <m_schnei> I thought that I have used Manchester syntax many times in Topbraid, and never found something missing
Michael Schneider: I thought that I have used Manchester syntax many times in Topbraid, and never found something missing ←
17:29:57 <IanH> ack bijan
Ian Horrocks: ack bijan ←
17:29:57 <uli> zakim, mute me
Uli Sattler: zakim, mute me ←
17:29:58 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: uli should now be muted ←
17:30:08 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:30:30 <alanr> q+
Alan Ruttenberg: q+ ←
17:30:49 <Zhe> bijan: This could be handled by smart editors. It is possible not to make this change.
Bijan Parsia: This could be handled by smart editors. It is possible not to make this change. ←
17:31:03 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:31:05 <bijan> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
17:31:05 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should now be muted ←
17:31:53 <Zhe> pfps: This is largely due to editors using different presentation methods
Peter Patel-Schneider: This is largely due to editors using different presentation methods ←
17:32:00 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:32:01 <pfps> q-
17:32:06 <IanH> ack alanr
Ian Horrocks: ack alanr ←
17:32:22 <Zhe> alanr: the motivation to have M syntax is to have an accessible, useful syntax
Alan Ruttenberg: the motivation to have M syntax is to have an accessible, useful syntax ←
17:32:26 <bijan> Which is does
Bijan Parsia: Which is does ←
17:32:29 <pfps> q+
17:32:39 <bijan> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
17:32:47 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:32:54 <IanH> ack pfps
Ian Horrocks: ack pfps ←
17:33:00 <Zhe> pfps: we introduce a new, weird way to damage ontologies
Peter Patel-Schneider: we introduce a new, weird way to damage ontologies ←
17:33:10 <alanr> why do we need it?
Alan Ruttenberg: why do we need it? ←
17:33:24 <alanr> if just for the primer, not justified, imo
Alan Ruttenberg: if just for the primer, not justified, imo ←
17:33:31 <bijan> Oo, that's a good point (Peter's)
Bijan Parsia: Oo, that's a good point (Peter's) ←
17:33:38 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:33:41 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
17:33:41 <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should no longer be muted ←
17:33:42 <IanH> ack bijan
Ian Horrocks: ack bijan ←
17:33:48 <pfps> q-
17:33:57 <Zhe> bijan: the current version does meet all criteria Alan said. It is unclear to me that this technique needs to be incorporated
Bijan Parsia: the current version does meet all criteria Alan said. It is unclear to me that this technique needs to be incorporated ←
17:34:39 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:34:43 <bijan> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
17:34:43 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should now be muted ←
17:35:01 <bijan> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
17:35:10 <IanH> ack alanr
Ian Horrocks: ack alanr ←
17:35:10 <Zhe> alanr: If the sole use is for primer, then there is no need for publishing.
Alan Ruttenberg: If the sole use is for primer, then there is no need for publishing. ←
17:35:12 <pfps> q+
17:35:24 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
17:35:24 <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should no longer be muted ←
17:35:53 <Zhe> IanH: just a few more comments and then we need to move on
Ian Horrocks: just a few more comments and then we need to move on ←
17:35:54 <m_schnei> +1 to ian, I first have to understand the basic problem
Michael Schneider: +1 to ian, I first have to understand the basic problem ←
17:36:05 <Zhe> bijan: it is 100% a spec.
Bijan Parsia: it is 100% a spec. ←
17:36:08 <alanr> I was reacting to Peter's comment. I propose to publish it as a note to supplement primer, meets our goal and primer requirement.
Alan Ruttenberg: I was reacting to Peter's comment. I propose to publish it as a note to supplement primer, meets our goal and primer requirement. ←
17:36:39 <pfps> q-
17:36:44 <pfps> Bijan covered my points. We need more compelling argument, if we don't have this feature then the value is gone
Peter Patel-Schneider: Bijan covered my points. We need more compelling argument, if we don't have this feature then the value is gone ←
17:36:56 <alanr> qq+
Alan Ruttenberg: qq+ ←
17:36:57 <alanr> q+
Alan Ruttenberg: q+ ←
17:37:04 <bijan> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
17:37:04 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should now be muted ←
17:37:13 <IanH> ack alanr
Ian Horrocks: ack alanr ←
17:37:27 <bijan> I'm fine debating the feature
Bijan Parsia: I'm fine debating the feature ←
17:37:30 <Zhe> alanr: it seems quite easy to deal with it
Alan Ruttenberg: it seems quite easy to deal with it ←
17:37:37 <bijan> I strongly object to the esclation of the significance of it
Bijan Parsia: I strongly object to the esclation of the significance of it ←
17:37:38 <Zhe> IanH: We will come back to it.
Ian Horrocks: We will come back to it. ←
17:37:52 <Zhe> IanH: Quick reference guide status? Due by end of Oct?
Ian Horrocks: Quick reference guide status? Due by end of Oct? ←
17:37:52 <alanr> I strongly object to your strong objection ;-)
Alan Ruttenberg: I strongly object to your strong objection ;-) ←
17:38:11 <pfps> there are some reviews in already, but not all
Peter Patel-Schneider: there are some reviews in already, but not all ←
17:38:21 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:38:28 <bijan> I object on the grounds that the drama is counterproductive and based on clear inaccuracy (e.g., that it's not a spec).
Bijan Parsia: I object on the grounds that the drama is counterproductive and based on clear inaccuracy (e.g., that it's not a spec). ←
17:38:34 <Zhe> Elisa: we did get some feedback. Jie is going to respond. That card has been used many times. Feedback is fantastic. Need restructuring and more work. Peter has some good suggestions on re-org. We will try it. Hopefully we can get it done in the few weeks. Our goal is to complete a revision/re-org by f2f
Elisa Kendall: we did get some feedback. Jie is going to respond. That card has been used many times. Feedback is fantastic. Need restructuring and more work. Peter has some good suggestions on re-org. We will try it. Hopefully we can get it done in the few weeks. Our goal is to complete a revision/re-org by f2f ←
17:39:56 <uli> I would offer to have a look at the design before you implement it
Uli Sattler: I would offer to have a look at the design before you implement it ←
17:40:58 <alanr> uli: email was http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Sep/0248.html
Uli Sattler: email was http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Sep/0248.html [ Scribe Assist by Alan Ruttenberg ] ←
17:40:59 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:41:07 <uli> Elisa, if i wouldn't think that this would be a useful doc I wouldn't have offered
Uli Sattler: Elisa, if i wouldn't think that this would be a useful doc I wouldn't have offered ←
17:41:22 <baojie> Original card by Li and Tim: http://ebiquity.umbc.edu/resource/html/id/94/
Jie Bao: Original card by Li and Tim: http://ebiquity.umbc.edu/resource/html/id/94/ ←
17:41:25 <Zakim> +??P26
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P26 ←
17:41:25 <Zhe> IanH: leave it to you and uli to talk offine and work together
Ian Horrocks: leave it to you and uli to talk offine and work together ←
17:41:34 <Carsten> zakim, ??pp26 is me
Carsten Lutz: zakim, ??pp26 is me ←
17:41:34 <Zakim> sorry, Carsten, I do not recognize a party named '??pp26'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, Carsten, I do not recognize a party named '??pp26' ←
17:41:34 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:41:42 <Carsten> zakim, ??p26 is me
Carsten Lutz: zakim, ??p26 is me ←
17:41:42 <Zakim> +Carsten; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Carsten; got it ←
17:41:45 <Carsten> zakim, mute me
Carsten Lutz: zakim, mute me ←
17:41:45 <Zakim> Carsten should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Carsten should now be muted ←
17:41:45 <Zhe> Elisa: we can set a call to have Jie, Elisa, Uli to talk through re-org issues
Elisa Kendall: we can set a call to have Jie, Elisa, Uli to talk through re-org issues ←
17:41:46 <uli> sure
Uli Sattler: sure ←
17:41:54 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:42:11 <Zhe> Topic: Issue discussions
17:42:44 <Zhe> IanH: proposal to resolve issue 130: Conformance, warnings, errors
Ian Horrocks: proposal to resolve ISSUE-130: Conformance, warnings, errors ←
17:42:48 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/issues/130
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/issues/130 ←
17:43:26 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:43:38 <Zhe> IanH: anyone against resolving this issue?
Ian Horrocks: anyone against resolving this issue? ←
17:44:28 <pfps> PROPOSED: close issue 130 as in T&C
PROPOSED: close ISSUE-130 as in T&C ←
17:44:41 <bmotik> +1
Boris Motik: +1 ←
17:44:42 <pfps> +1
17:44:44 <m_schnei> +1 (FZI)
Michael Schneider: +1 (FZI) ←
17:44:44 <msmith> +1
Mike Smith: +1 ←
17:44:45 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
17:44:46 <ewallace> +1
Evan Wallace: +1 ←
17:44:46 <alanr> +1
Alan Ruttenberg: +1 ←
17:44:47 <IanH> +1
Ian Horrocks: +1 ←
17:44:47 <bijan> +1
Bijan Parsia: +1 ←
17:44:47 <uli> _1
Uli Sattler: _1 ←
17:44:48 <Zhe> Zhe: +1
17:44:48 <Rinke> +1
Rinke Hoekstra: +1 ←
17:44:54 <Achille> +1
Achille Fokoue: +1 ←
17:44:56 <uli> +1 that is
Uli Sattler: +1 that is ←
17:44:57 <Elisa> +1
Elisa Kendall: +1 ←
17:45:06 <IanH> RESOLVED: close issue 130 as in T&C
RESOLVED: close ISSUE-130 as in T&C ←
17:45:30 <Zhe> IanH: Issue discussions. lift issue 127
Ian Horrocks: Issue discussions. lift ISSUE-127 ←
17:45:34 <Zhe> IanH: issue-127: documents contain bits of nary datatype but these are not yet in OWL 2
Ian Horrocks: ISSUE-127: documents contain bits of nary datatype but these are not yet in OWL 2 ←
17:45:34 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/issues/127
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/issues/127 ←
17:45:46 <bijan> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
17:45:49 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
17:45:50 <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should no longer be muted ←
17:45:53 <Zhe> IanH: what are we going to do if we don't have nary in the SPEC?
Ian Horrocks: what are we going to do if we don't have nary in the SPEC? ←
17:45:56 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:46:00 <IanH> ack bijan
Ian Horrocks: ack bijan ←
17:46:15 <alanr> we have had discussion
Alan Ruttenberg: we have had discussion ←
17:46:18 <Zhe> bijan: We have hooks right now
Bijan Parsia: We have hooks right now ←
17:46:26 <Zhe> IanH: What are the hooks?
Ian Horrocks: What are the hooks? ←
17:46:29 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:46:42 <Zhe> bijan: For example, we can have a list of property restrictions and then we can have nary predicate, onProperties can take a list. That is the base level.
Bijan Parsia: For example, we can have a list of property restrictions and then we can have nary predicate, onProperties can take a list. That is the base level. ←
17:46:43 <alanr> q+ to ask instead what is the status of the n-ary
Alan Ruttenberg: q+ to ask instead what is the status of the n-ary ←
17:46:53 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:47:07 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:47:08 <m_schnei> datatype complements also
Michael Schneider: datatype complements also ←
17:47:23 <Zhe> alanr: Those are the kinds of things I was referring to
Alan Ruttenberg: Those are the kinds of things I was referring to ←
17:47:25 <bmotik> q+
Boris Motik: q+ ←
17:47:31 <IanH> ack alanr
Ian Horrocks: ack alanr ←
17:47:31 <Zakim> alanr, you wanted to ask instead what the status of the n-ary
Zakim IRC Bot: alanr, you wanted to ask instead what the status of the n-ary ←
17:47:55 <bmotik> Zakim, unmute me
Boris Motik: Zakim, unmute me ←
17:47:55 <Zakim> bmotik should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bmotik should no longer be muted ←
17:48:08 <IanH> ack bmotik
Ian Horrocks: ack bmotik ←
17:48:27 <Zhe> bmotik: To be precise, the hooks is the datarange class
Boris Motik: To be precise, the hooks is the datarange class ←
17:48:41 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:48:46 <Zhe> IanH: What if we don't have it?
Ian Horrocks: What if we don't have it? ←
17:49:00 <alanr> We have extensibility of datatype map
Alan Ruttenberg: We have extensibility of datatype map ←
17:49:06 <m_schnei> q+
Michael Schneider: q+ ←
17:49:23 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
Boris Motik: Zakim, mute me ←
17:49:23 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bmotik should now be muted ←
17:49:34 <m_schnei> zakim, unmute me
Michael Schneider: zakim, unmute me ←
17:49:34 <Zakim> m_schnei should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: m_schnei should no longer be muted ←
17:49:35 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:50:05 <bmotik> bmotik: The Syntax document contains an explanation of what the hooks are in Section 7 and Section 8.4
Boris Motik: The Syntax document contains an explanation of what the hooks are in Section 7 and Section 8.4 [ Scribe Assist by Boris Motik ] ←
17:50:29 <Zhe> m_schnei: I want to add that the hook is also on compelmentOf
Michael Schneider: I want to add that the hook is also on compelmentOf ←
17:50:31 <m_schnei> zakim, mute me
Michael Schneider: zakim, mute me ←
17:50:31 <Zakim> m_schnei should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: m_schnei should now be muted ←
17:50:38 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:50:40 <m_schnei> zakim, unmute me
Michael Schneider: zakim, unmute me ←
17:50:40 <Zakim> m_schnei should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: m_schnei should no longer be muted ←
17:50:47 <Zhe> IanH: Would it be a problem if all have arity 1
Ian Horrocks: Would it be a problem if all have arity 1 ←
17:50:51 <IanH> ack m_schnei
Ian Horrocks: ack m_schnei ←
17:51:07 <Zhe> m_schnei: maybe fine
Michael Schneider: maybe fine ←
17:51:15 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
17:51:16 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:51:16 <m_schnei> zakim, mute me
Michael Schneider: zakim, mute me ←
17:51:17 <Zakim> m_schnei should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: m_schnei should now be muted ←
17:51:48 <ewallace> So why don't we just put N-ary in OWL 2?
Evan Wallace: So why don't we just put N-ary in OWL 2? ←
17:52:09 <alanr> If there is progress made and hope for a spec by f2f, then I suggest we postpone in anticipation.
Alan Ruttenberg: If there is progress made and hope for a spec by f2f, then I suggest we postpone in anticipation. ←
17:52:13 <msmith> I believe Bijan is referring to this document http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Data_Range_Extension:_Linear_Equations
Mike Smith: I believe Bijan is referring to this document http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Data_Range_Extension:_Linear_Equations ←
17:52:17 <Zhe> bijan: Have a paper on how to compute satisfiability. I don't know who else objects the hooks.
Bijan Parsia: Have a paper on how to compute satisfiability. I don't know who else objects the hooks. ←
17:52:30 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:52:36 <alanr> q+
Alan Ruttenberg: q+ ←
17:52:42 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:53:11 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:53:16 <IanH> ack alanr
Ian Horrocks: ack alanr ←
17:53:17 <Zhe> alanr: I am happy to know the progress. I object because we don't want to add things that are not understandble by reasoners.
Alan Ruttenberg: I am happy to know the progress. I object because we don't want to add things that are not understandble by reasoners. ←
17:53:34 <bijan> q+ to ask if this is datatypes
Bijan Parsia: q+ to ask if this is datatypes ←
17:53:41 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:54:17 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:54:59 <msmith> discussion at f2f3 http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/meeting/2008-07-29#N__2d_ary_datatype
Mike Smith: discussion at f2f3 http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/meeting/2008-07-29#N__2d_ary_datatype ←
17:55:00 <Zhe> bijan: there were objections (from Boris) on difficulty ground to add nary datatype
Bijan Parsia: there were objections (from Boris) on difficulty ground to add nary datatype ←
17:55:10 <m_schnei> q+
Michael Schneider: q+ ←
17:55:16 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:55:21 <IanH> ack bijan
Ian Horrocks: ack bijan ←
17:55:21 <Zakim> bijan, you wanted to ask if this is datatypes
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan, you wanted to ask if this is datatypes ←
17:55:34 <bmotik> I look forward to learning about your results!
Boris Motik: I look forward to learning about your results! ←
17:55:38 <Zhe> bijan: I hope to convince Boris to include it after working out details. We already have extension point for data type
Bijan Parsia: I hope to convince Boris to include it after working out details. We already have extension point for data type ←
17:55:41 <m_schnei> zakim, unmute me
Michael Schneider: zakim, unmute me ←
17:55:41 <Zakim> m_schnei should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: m_schnei should no longer be muted ←
17:55:43 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:55:59 <alanr> over objection
Alan Ruttenberg: over objection ←
17:56:15 <alanr> and still under discussion
Alan Ruttenberg: and still under discussion ←
17:56:42 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:57:00 <alanr> +1
Alan Ruttenberg: +1 ←
17:57:15 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:57:18 <Zhe> IanH: Maybe we can postpone once we make further progress with document
Ian Horrocks: Maybe we can postpone once we make further progress with document ←
17:57:19 <alanr> (and is hopeful that document will be completed)
Alan Ruttenberg: (and is hopeful that document will be completed) ←
17:58:00 <Zhe> m_schnei: I think I remember from last F2F, putting concrete n-ary datatype in has big impact on implementors
Michael Schneider: I think I remember from last F2F, putting concrete n-ary datatype in has big impact on implementors ←
17:58:07 <sandro> [ Apologies, I need to run off to another meeting. Enjoy.... ]
Sandro Hawke: [ Apologies, I need to run off to another meeting. Enjoy.... ] ←
17:58:11 <bijan> Yes, we're there :)
Bijan Parsia: Yes, we're there :) ←
17:58:17 <Zakim> -Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro ←
17:58:20 <alanr> q+
Alan Ruttenberg: q+ ←
17:58:24 <bijan> The conformance problem would be solved by pointing to an additional recommendation
Bijan Parsia: The conformance problem would be solved by pointing to an additional recommendation ←
17:58:34 <bijan> Yes!
Bijan Parsia: Yes! ←
17:58:42 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
17:58:47 <m_schnei> zakim, mute me
Michael Schneider: zakim, mute me ←
17:58:47 <Zakim> m_schnei should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: m_schnei should now be muted ←
17:59:01 <IanH> ack m_schnei
Ian Horrocks: ack m_schnei ←
17:59:05 <IanH> ack alanr
Ian Horrocks: ack alanr ←
17:59:31 <Zhe> alanr: I object to leave it completely open in the document
Alan Ruttenberg: I object to leave it completely open in the document ←
17:59:33 <uli> I don't think that this will happen, Alan
Uli Sattler: I don't think that this will happen, Alan ←
17:59:41 <alanr> uli: great!
Uli Sattler: great! [ Scribe Assist by Alan Ruttenberg ] ←
17:59:48 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/issues/144
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/issues/144 ←
17:59:51 <m_schnei> m_schnei: I remember the idea was that we put the hooks in the core OWL 2 language, and then (either we or a different WG) specifies certain n-ary datatypes (comparisons, etc.) as "standard extensions"
Michael Schneider: I remember the idea was that we put the hooks in the core OWL 2 language, and then (either we or a different WG) specifies certain n-ary datatypes (comparisons, etc.) as "standard extensions" [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ] ←
17:59:48 <Zhe> IanH: issue-144: missing base triple in serialization of axioms with annotations.
Ian Horrocks: ISSUE-144: missing base triple in serialization of axioms with annotations. ←
17:59:53 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:00:01 <m_schnei> q+
Michael Schneider: q+ ←
18:00:04 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:00:05 <bijan> Let's dump reificatioN!
Bijan Parsia: Let's dump reificatioN! ←
18:00:05 <m_schnei> zakim, unmute me
Michael Schneider: zakim, unmute me ←
18:00:05 <Zakim> m_schnei was not muted, m_schnei
Zakim IRC Bot: m_schnei was not muted, m_schnei ←
18:00:07 <pfps> no change from last time :-)
Peter Patel-Schneider: no change from last time :-) ←
18:00:12 <IanH> ack m_schnei
Ian Horrocks: ack m_schnei ←
18:00:36 <Zhe> m_schnei: Not having the base triple will cause some syntatic non-monotonicity. After adding annotations will remove original assertions, it is not a problem for FULL semantics because base triple will be re-created.
Michael Schneider: Not having the base triple will cause some syntatic non-monotonicity. After adding annotations will remove original assertions, it is not a problem for FULL semantics because base triple will be re-created. ←
18:02:04 <Zhe> m_schnei: However, it will be a problem for SPARQL, you have to re-create it
Michael Schneider: However, it will be a problem for SPARQL, you have to re-create it ←
18:01:58 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:02:03 <bmotik> q+
Boris Motik: q+ ←
18:02:16 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:02:17 <bmotik> Zakim, unmute me
Boris Motik: Zakim, unmute me ←
18:02:18 <Zakim> bmotik should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bmotik should no longer be muted ←
18:02:19 <m_schnei> zakim, mute me
Michael Schneider: zakim, mute me ←
18:02:19 <Zakim> m_schnei should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: m_schnei should now be muted ←
18:02:21 <IanH> ack bmotik
Ian Horrocks: ack bmotik ←
18:02:34 <Zhe> bmotik: It still does not solve the problem if the triple is not there. adding a reification rule.
Boris Motik: It still does not solve the problem if the triple is not there. adding a reification rule. ←
18:03:53 <Zhe> ... tools can always add it.
... tools can always add it. ←
18:04:14 <Zhe> ... we should say tool should put related triples together in serialization, to address efficiency problem
... we should say tool should put related triples together in serialization, to address efficiency problem ←
18:04:46 <Zhe> ... for triple stores
... for triple stores ←
18:02:34 <alanr> what tool would remove the triple?
Alan Ruttenberg: what tool would remove the triple? ←
18:03:08 <alanr> q+
Alan Ruttenberg: q+ ←
18:03:11 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:03:35 <m_schnei> q+
Michael Schneider: q+ ←
18:03:56 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:04:12 <IanH> ack alanr
Ian Horrocks: ack alanr ←
18:04:29 <Zhe> alanr: having a de-reification rule is not feasible. Two versions of ontologies will require two versions of query
Alan Ruttenberg: having a de-reification rule is not feasible. Two versions of ontologies will require two versions of query ←
18:04:43 <bijan> q+ to ask about this "common scenarios"
Bijan Parsia: q+ to ask about this "common scenarios" ←
18:04:57 <bmotik> q+
Boris Motik: q+ ←
18:05:02 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:05:06 <m_schnei> zakim, unmute me
Michael Schneider: zakim, unmute me ←
18:05:06 <Zakim> m_schnei should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: m_schnei should no longer be muted ←
18:05:10 <uli> when would we then have trouble, Alan?
Uli Sattler: when would we then have trouble, Alan? ←
18:05:13 <IanH> ack m_schnei
Ian Horrocks: ack m_schnei ←
18:06:11 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
18:06:11 <Zakim> bijan was not muted, bijan
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan was not muted, bijan ←
18:06:14 <Zhe> m_schnei: why not just put it in?
Michael Schneider: why not just put it in? ←
18:06:15 <m_schnei> zakim, mute me
Michael Schneider: zakim, mute me ←
18:06:15 <Zakim> m_schnei should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: m_schnei should now be muted ←
18:06:24 <Zhe> bijan: i don't know
Bijan Parsia: i don't know ←
18:06:28 <IanH> ack bijan
Ian Horrocks: ack bijan ←
18:06:28 <Zakim> bijan, you wanted to ask about this "common scenarios"
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan, you wanted to ask about this "common scenarios" ←
18:06:31 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:06:54 <msmith> m_schnei, just putting it in breaks the RDF -> functional mapping
Mike Smith: m_schnei, just putting it in breaks the RDF -> functional mapping ←
18:06:57 <m_schnei> q+
Michael Schneider: q+ ←
18:07:01 <alanr> its not just axioms. it's entity annotations as well
Alan Ruttenberg: its not just axioms. it's entity annotations as well ←
18:07:27 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:08:05 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:08:06 <bijan> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
18:08:07 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should now be muted ←
18:08:08 <IanH> ack bmotik
Ian Horrocks: ack bmotik ←
18:08:17 <alanr> q+
Alan Ruttenberg: q+ ←
18:08:18 <Zhe> bijan: it is new and not well supported by RDF. we still need some smart technique to process it
Bijan Parsia: it is new and not well supported by RDF. we still need some smart technique to process it ←
18:08:45 <Zhe> bmotik: cannot distinguish axiom wo annotation and axiom with annotation
Boris Motik: cannot distinguish axiom wo annotation and axiom with annotation ←
18:08:54 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:08:55 <uli> Bijan, in the above, did "it" mean "OWL"?
Uli Sattler: Bijan, in the above, did "it" mean "OWL"? ←
18:09:07 <bijan> Axiom annotations
Bijan Parsia: Axiom annotations ←
18:09:08 <alanr> they should not be!
Alan Ruttenberg: they should not be! ←
18:09:15 <bijan> +1 to boris
Bijan Parsia: +1 to boris ←
18:09:29 <msmith> e.g., SubClassOf(A B) and SubClassOf( Annotation( dc:creator "msmith" ) A B)
Mike Smith: e.g., SubClassOf(A B) and SubClassOf( Annotation( dc:creator "msmith" ) A B) ←
18:09:41 <uli> thanks, Bijan
Uli Sattler: thanks, Bijan ←
18:09:55 <alanr> msmiths - smileys mess up your message
Alan Ruttenberg: msmiths - smileys mess up your message ←
18:10:07 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:10:19 <m_schnei> zakim, unmute me
Michael Schneider: zakim, unmute me ←
18:10:19 <Zakim> m_schnei should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: m_schnei should no longer be muted ←
18:10:30 <IanH> ack m_schnei
Ian Horrocks: ack m_schnei ←
18:11:13 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:11:22 <msmith> it would add axioms that didn't exist
Mike Smith: it would add axioms that didn't exist ←
18:11:42 <bmotik> q+
Boris Motik: q+ ←
18:11:47 <Zhe> m_schnei: I don't see the problem
Michael Schneider: I don't see the problem ←
18:11:55 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:11:56 <m_schnei> zakim, mute me
Michael Schneider: zakim, mute me ←
18:11:56 <Zakim> m_schnei should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: m_schnei should now be muted ←
18:11:56 <bmotik> Consider the following axioms:
Boris Motik: Consider the following axioms: ←
18:11:58 <IanH> ack alanr
Ian Horrocks: ack alanr ←
18:12:01 <bmotik> SubClassOf( A B )
Boris Motik: SubClassOf( A B ) ←
18:12:03 <bmotik> and
Boris Motik: and ←
18:12:12 <msmith> q+
Mike Smith: q+ ←
18:12:15 <bmotik> SubClassOf( Label("bla") A B )
Boris Motik: SubClassOf( Label("bla") A B ) ←
18:12:32 <bmotik> The first gets translated into one triple only
Boris Motik: The first gets translated into one triple only ←
18:12:45 <Zhe> alanr: I am confused. it does not even make sense to have an un-annotated axiom and an annotated version in one ontology
Alan Ruttenberg: I am confused. it does not even make sense to have an un-annotated axiom and an annotated version in one ontology ←
18:12:48 <bmotik> The second gets translated into the four triples only.
Boris Motik: The second gets translated into the four triples only. ←
18:13:00 <uli> Alan, we won't be able to prevent these "duplicate axioms" and I don't think we should!
Uli Sattler: Alan, we won't be able to prevent these "duplicate axioms" and I don't think we should! ←
18:13:00 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:13:02 <m_schnei> yes, thats fine
Michael Schneider: yes, thats fine ←
18:13:08 <IanH> ack bmotik
Ian Horrocks: ack bmotik ←
18:13:09 <bijan> q+ to support distinguishing it
Bijan Parsia: q+ to support distinguishing it ←
18:13:11 <Zhe> bmotik: what do you mean by adding annotation
Boris Motik: what do you mean by adding annotation ←
18:13:37 <Zhe> ... P4 will retract and add a new one
... P4 will retract and add a new one ←
18:13:47 <Zhe> ... however it is beyond the point
... however it is beyond the point ←
18:13:41 <m_schnei> at least, the original semantics have to be the same after a roundtrip through RDF
Michael Schneider: at least, the original semantics have to be the same after a roundtrip through RDF ←
18:13:51 <alanr> so you have 4 annotations and you add a fifth and you "retract" the 4 annotations and add a *new* axiom with 5 annotations?
Alan Ruttenberg: so you have 4 annotations and you add a fifth and you "retract" the 4 annotations and add a *new* axiom with 5 annotations? ←
18:13:52 <bijan> I wrote SubClassOf( A B ). Then I merge with an ontology that had SubClassOf(Label("bla") A B)
Bijan Parsia: I wrote SubClassOf( A B ). Then I merge with an ontology that had SubClassOf(Label("bla") A B) ←
18:14:03 <m_schnei> q+
Michael Schneider: q+ ←
18:14:08 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:14:09 <bijan> SubClassOf(Label("Bla" A B )
Bijan Parsia: SubClassOf(Label("Bla" A B ) ←
18:14:09 <uli> e.g., we could have "the same axiom" from different imports and that have been created by different people
Uli Sattler: e.g., we could have "the same axiom" from different imports and that have been created by different people ←
18:14:21 <Zhe> bmotik: from a pure definition's perspective, it can happen. It will be strange to forbid it.
Boris Motik: from a pure definition's perspective, it can happen. It will be strange to forbid it. ←
18:14:21 <bijan> It'd be nice to notice that there are two!
Bijan Parsia: It'd be nice to notice that there are two! ←
18:14:22 <alanr> They should be considered the *same* axiom
Alan Ruttenberg: They should be considered the *same* axiom ←
18:14:29 <msmith> q-
Mike Smith: q- ←
18:14:35 <alanr> q+
Alan Ruttenberg: q+ ←
18:14:38 <bijan> E.g., that one was written by me (without a label).
Bijan Parsia: E.g., that one was written by me (without a label). ←
18:14:40 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:14:42 <m_schnei> q-
Michael Schneider: q- ←
18:14:47 <bijan> The other one wasn't (and has a label)
Bijan Parsia: The other one wasn't (and has a label) ←
18:14:55 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
18:14:55 <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should no longer be muted ←
18:15:12 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:15:17 <IanH> ack bijan
Ian Horrocks: ack bijan ←
18:15:17 <Zakim> bijan, you wanted to support distinguishing it
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan, you wanted to support distinguishing it ←
18:15:20 <uli> how far would we go? E.g., how much normalization/rewriting would we consider to decide "equality of axioms"?
Uli Sattler: how far would we go? E.g., how much normalization/rewriting would we consider to decide "equality of axioms"? ←
18:15:20 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:15:26 <alanr> if you compare you should see that there is an added annotation to *the* axiom
Alan Ruttenberg: if you compare you should see that there is an added annotation to *the* axiom ←
18:15:44 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:15:48 <uli> +1 to Bijan
Uli Sattler: +1 to Bijan ←
18:15:49 <alanr> Second case is not at risk
Alan Ruttenberg: Second case is not at risk ←
18:15:51 <Zhe> q+
q+ ←
18:16:18 <bmotik> q+
Boris Motik: q+ ←
18:16:37 <bijan> I didn't undersatnd what alan said was "very clear"
Bijan Parsia: I didn't undersatnd what alan said was "very clear" ←
18:16:37 <IanH> ack alanr
Ian Horrocks: ack alanr ←
18:16:49 <bijan> I meant *merge* not import
Bijan Parsia: I meant *merge* not import ←
18:16:51 <m_schnei> q+
Michael Schneider: q+ ←
18:16:53 <bijan> That's why I said *merge*
Bijan Parsia: That's why I said *merge* ←
18:17:04 <bijan> You are kidding
Bijan Parsia: You are kidding ←
18:17:09 <m_schnei> we have an imports closure
Michael Schneider: we have an imports closure ←
18:17:25 <bijan> I merge ontologies all the time
Bijan Parsia: I merge ontologies all the time ←
18:17:29 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:17:30 <bijan> Cut and paste
Bijan Parsia: Cut and paste ←
18:17:32 <pfps> q+ to ask why the "know"
Peter Patel-Schneider: q+ to ask why the "know" ←
18:17:33 <bijan> i've written tools to do it
Bijan Parsia: i've written tools to do it ←
18:17:36 <bijan> P4 does it
Bijan Parsia: P4 does it ←
18:17:50 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:17:55 <uli> I have done it and seen people doing it (the cut and paste)
Uli Sattler: I have done it and seen people doing it (the cut and paste) ←
18:18:00 <m_schnei> ok, I will write down my points and send it to the list
Michael Schneider: ok, I will write down my points and send it to the list ←
18:18:05 <pfps> q-
18:18:09 <m_schnei> q-
Michael Schneider: q- ←
18:18:19 <IanH> ack Zhe
Ian Horrocks: ack Zhe ←
18:18:27 <bijan> Refactor>>Extract/Remove Axioms will move sets of axioms from one ontology to the other
Bijan Parsia: Refactor>>Extract/Remove Axioms will move sets of axioms from one ontology to the other ←
18:18:48 <uli> Zhe: I have been stressing efficiency for a long time, I don't know whether Boris's suggestion (on putting relevant triples together) is feasible in practice.
Zhe Wu: I have been stressing efficiency for a long time, I don't know whether Boris's suggestion (on putting relevant triples together) is feasible in practice. [ Scribe Assist by Uli Sattler ] ←
18:18:53 <pfps> a number of people have produced countering efficiency claims
Peter Patel-Schneider: a number of people have produced countering efficiency claims ←
18:19:01 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:19:37 <IanH> Zhe: why is it useful to distinguish axioms with and without annotations?
Zhe Wu: why is it useful to distinguish axioms with and without annotations? [ Scribe Assist by Ian Horrocks ] ←
18:19:52 <alanr> I am the same when a few skin cells slough off
Alan Ruttenberg: I am the same when a few skin cells slough off ←
18:20:07 <alanr> one can certainly redefine identity appropriately
Alan Ruttenberg: one can certainly redefine identity appropriately ←
18:20:10 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:20:15 <IanH> ack bmotik
Ian Horrocks: ack bmotik ←
18:20:35 <uli> Alan, I think your comparisons don't work
Uli Sattler: Alan, I think your comparisons don't work ←
18:20:41 <alanr> because?
Alan Ruttenberg: because? ←
18:20:45 <msmith> +1 to boris, the current definition of structural consistency is very nice from a software implementation perspective
Mike Smith: +1 to boris, the current definition of structural consistency is very nice from a software implementation perspective ←
18:21:03 <uli> if we have the same axiom from different authors in different files, we might care
Uli Sattler: if we have the same axiom from different authors in different files, we might care ←
18:21:16 <m_schnei> we don't care about perfect roundtrip anymore, remember!
Michael Schneider: we don't care about perfect roundtrip anymore, remember! ←
18:21:18 <alanr> not an issue when in different files
Alan Ruttenberg: not an issue when in different files ←
18:21:23 <m_schnei> we have "semantic" roundtripping
Michael Schneider: we have "semantic" roundtripping ←
18:21:26 <bijan> I care about roudntripping
Bijan Parsia: I care about roudntripping ←
18:21:28 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:21:34 <bijan> And preserving it as much as possible
Bijan Parsia: And preserving it as much as possible ←
18:21:35 <uli> oups, i forgot
Uli Sattler: oups, i forgot ←
18:21:43 <alanr> if merging two files and you want to preserve source file, then annotate with provenance
Alan Ruttenberg: if merging two files and you want to preserve source file, then annotate with provenance ←
18:21:46 <uli> but still, when you copy and paste, then you need this
Uli Sattler: but still, when you copy and paste, then you need this ←
18:21:54 <uli> this distinction, i mean
Uli Sattler: this distinction, i mean ←
18:21:56 <alanr> you can do anything with cut and paste
Alan Ruttenberg: you can do anything with cut and paste ←
18:22:07 <IanH> STRAWPOLL: we should add the base triple?
STRAWPOLL: we should add the base triple? ←
18:22:09 <alanr> it's a matter of comparing what's priority
Alan Ruttenberg: it's a matter of comparing what's priority ←
18:22:10 <pfps> -1 down with base triples
Peter Patel-Schneider: -1 down with base triples ←
18:22:23 <Zhe> Zhe: +1 with base triples
Zhe Wu: +1 with base triples ←
18:22:27 <msmith> -1
Mike Smith: -1 ←
18:22:28 <Bernardo> -1 to base triples
Bernardo Cuenca Grau: -1 to base triples ←
18:22:28 <bijan> -1
Bijan Parsia: -1 ←
18:22:31 <m_schnei> +1 to base triple (we do not care about roundtripping since 6 months or so)
Michael Schneider: +1 to base triple (we do not care about roundtripping since 6 months or so) ←
18:22:32 <baojie> 0 (need to think more)
Jie Bao: 0 (need to think more) ←
18:22:32 <Achille> 0
Achille Fokoue: 0 ←
18:22:34 <bmotik> -1 to base triples
Boris Motik: -1 to base triples ←
18:22:34 <alanr> +1 to base triples
Alan Ruttenberg: +1 to base triples ←
18:22:38 <uli> -1
Uli Sattler: -1 ←
18:22:41 <ewallace> 0
Evan Wallace: 0 ←
18:22:47 <Rinke> -0
Rinke Hoekstra: -0 ←
18:22:47 <IanH> -1
Ian Horrocks: -1 ←
18:22:49 <ratnesh> -1
Ratnesh Sahay: -1 ←
18:22:50 <Carsten> 0
Carsten Lutz: 0 ←
18:22:52 <alanr> (one of Sandro or Ivan would vote +1, I expect)
Alan Ruttenberg: (one of Sandro or Ivan would vote +1, I expect) ←
18:23:01 <pfps> q+
18:23:09 <pfps> q-
18:23:14 <bmotik> q+
Boris Motik: q+ ←
18:23:19 <Zhe> IanH: we are kind of split
Ian Horrocks: we are kind of split ←
18:23:25 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:23:31 <Carsten> 7:2 = split in the middle?
Carsten Lutz: 7:2 = split in the middle? ←
18:23:38 <Zhe> bmotik: if I see a convincing way to roundtrip it
Boris Motik: if I see a convincing way to roundtrip it ←
18:23:40 <alanr> I'm not guessing
Alan Ruttenberg: I'm not guessing ←
18:23:48 <msmith> 7:3 I think
Mike Smith: 7:3 I think ←
18:23:55 <Carsten> sorry
Carsten Lutz: sorry ←
18:24:05 <uli> 8:3?
Uli Sattler: 8:3? ←
18:24:08 <msmith> 8:3
Mike Smith: 8:3 ←
18:24:26 <Zhe> IanH: the point is that it is not just one person against the rest
Ian Horrocks: the point is that it is not just one person against the rest ←
18:24:38 <alanr> different if we count by institution ;-)
Alan Ruttenberg: different if we count by institution ;-) ←
18:24:55 <Zhe> IanH: issue-137: Table 4 in RDF mapping introduces incompatibility with OWL 1
Ian Horrocks: ISSUE-137: Table 4 in RDF mapping introduces incompatibility with OWL 1 ←
18:24:56 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/issues/137
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/issues/137 ←
18:24:57 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:25:03 <alanr> q+
Alan Ruttenberg: q+ ←
18:25:04 <bmotik> -q
Boris Motik: -q ←
18:25:07 <bmotik> q-
Boris Motik: q- ←
18:25:14 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:25:19 <IanH> ack alanr
Ian Horrocks: ack alanr ←
18:26:03 <bijan> Er... that's not a use case
Bijan Parsia: Er... that's not a use case ←
18:26:16 <bijan> "RDF not an XML solution" just isn't a use case
Bijan Parsia: "RDF not an XML solution" just isn't a use case ←
18:26:45 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:27:00 <Zhe> alanr: there is no reason to have additional inclusion mechnism other than owl import
Alan Ruttenberg: there is no reason to have additional inclusion mechnism other than owl import ←
18:27:56 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:28:04 <Zhe> bijan: i don't agree with it. I am not convinced.
Bijan Parsia: i don't agree with it. I am not convinced. ←
18:28:32 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:28:33 <Zhe> bijan: use xml include
Bijan Parsia: use xml include ←
18:28:37 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:28:42 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:28:53 <Zhe> alanr: not happy with it.
Alan Ruttenberg: not happy with it. ←
18:29:16 <pfps> n-triples as a rec? where is it coming from?
Peter Patel-Schneider: n-triples as a rec? where is it coming from? ←
18:29:25 <bijan> n-triples is already a rec
Bijan Parsia: n-triples is already a rec ←
18:29:26 <bijan> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
18:29:31 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:29:54 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:30:16 <alanr> yes - turtle
Alan Ruttenberg: yes - turtle ←
18:30:19 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:30:27 <alanr> it's not a turtle problem
Alan Ruttenberg: it's not a turtle problem ←
18:30:33 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:30:38 <IanH> ack bijan
Ian Horrocks: ack bijan ←
18:30:43 <alanr> we can do this in owl, folks don't like the solution
Alan Ruttenberg: we can do this in owl, folks don't like the solution ←
18:31:03 <alanr> so there is a compromise offered
Alan Ruttenberg: so there is a compromise offered ←
18:31:06 <bijan> I don't see any movement will happen...we'll problaby not get consensus
Bijan Parsia: I don't see any movement will happen...we'll problaby not get consensus ←
18:31:12 <Zakim> -Evan_Wallace
Zakim IRC Bot: -Evan_Wallace ←
18:31:14 <Zakim> -msmith
Zakim IRC Bot: -msmith ←
18:31:15 <Zakim> -bijan
Zakim IRC Bot: -bijan ←
18:31:17 <Zakim> -Bernardo
Zakim IRC Bot: -Bernardo ←
18:31:21 <Rinke> stop don't go!
Rinke Hoekstra: stop don't go! ←
18:31:35 <pfps> F2F agenda looks good
Peter Patel-Schneider: F2F agenda looks good ←
18:31:36 <Zhe> IanH: F2F4 agenda? anyone looked at it?
Ian Horrocks: F2F4 agenda? anyone looked at it? ←
18:31:37 <uli> Yes, But i need to look again
Uli Sattler: Yes, But i need to look again ←
18:31:38 <Rinke> +1
Rinke Hoekstra: +1 ←
18:31:46 <m_schnei> not yet looked at it
Michael Schneider: not yet looked at it ←
18:31:51 <Zakim> -baojie
Zakim IRC Bot: -baojie ←
18:31:55 <bijan> you'll have to explain (in email) how the compromise isn't just your position ...I don't see how it's different
Bijan Parsia: you'll have to explain (in email) how the compromise isn't just your position ...I don't see how it's different ←
18:32:12 <alanr> my position was to fix the mapping to handle it
Alan Ruttenberg: my position was to fix the mapping to handle it ←
18:32:19 <Zhe> IanH: please get back to me with your comments in the next hour.
Ian Horrocks: please get back to me with your comments in the next hour. ←
18:32:20 <alanr> peter offered to have some inclusion mechanism instead
Alan Ruttenberg: peter offered to have some inclusion mechanism instead ←
18:32:35 <uli> oh, yes: I was wondering whether the second session of Day 2 is really reserved to repairs...this seems really long
Uli Sattler: oh, yes: I was wondering whether the second session of Day 2 is really reserved to repairs...this seems really long ←
This revision (#2) generated 2008-10-14 21:25:59 UTC by 'zwu2', comments: 'Please review. Thanks.'