<sandro> PRESENT: adrian, axel, changhai, csma, welty, reynolds, gary, harold, john_hall, jos, kifer, sandro, stella
13:02:21 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/17-rif-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/17-rif-irc ←
13:02:26 <ChrisW> zakim, this is rif
Christopher Welty: zakim, this is rif ←
13:02:26 <Zakim> ChrisW, I see SW_RIF(F2F)8:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be rif".
Zakim IRC Bot: ChrisW, I see SW_RIF(F2F)8:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be rif". ←
13:02:42 <ChrisW> zakim, this will be rif
Christopher Welty: zakim, this will be rif ←
13:02:42 <Zakim> ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF(F2F)8:00AM scheduled to start 62 minutes ago
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF(F2F)8:00AM scheduled to start 62 minutes ago ←
13:03:19 <ChrisW> Meeting: RIF F2F13
13:03:36 <ChrisW> Chair: Chris Welty, csma
13:04:14 <ChrisW> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/F2F13#Agenda
13:06:59 <AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Apr/0091.html
Axel Polleres: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Apr/0091.html ←
13:07:14 <AxelPolleres> (and thread following)
Axel Polleres: (and thread following) ←
13:08:12 <Zakim> SW_RIF(F2F)8:00AM has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RIF(F2F)8:00AM has now started ←
13:08:14 <AxelPolleres> In the light of the new information that owl:real is disjoint from float and double, I'd prefer to drop owl:real as a datatype in RIF.
Axel Polleres: In the light of the new information that owl:real is disjoint from float and double, I'd prefer to drop owl:real as a datatype in RIF. ←
13:08:18 <Zakim> +??P12
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P12 ←
13:14:39 <ChrisW> calling
(No events recorded for 6 minutes)
Christopher Welty: calling ←
13:16:19 <Zakim> +MIT-G631
Zakim IRC Bot: +MIT-G631 ←
13:17:29 <ChrisW> dave, can you hear?
Christopher Welty: dave, can you hear? ←
13:17:55 <cke> scribe: cke
(Scribe set to Changhai Ke)
13:17:57 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
Christopher Welty: zakim, who is on the phone? ←
13:17:57 <Zakim> On the phone I see DaveReynolds, MIT-G631
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see DaveReynolds, MIT-G631 ←
13:18:35 <ChrisW> zaim, MIT-G631 contains ChrisW, csma, sandro, Harold, mkifer, AdrianP, cke, AxelPolleres, josb, GaryHallmark, StellaMitchell
Christopher Welty: zaim, MIT-G631 contains ChrisW, csma, sandro, Harold, mkifer, AdrianP, cke, AxelPolleres, josb, GaryHallmark, StellaMitchell ←
13:19:22 <cke> Discussion about this morning's agenda
Discussion about this morning's agenda ←
13:19:51 <cke> quick resolutions - lists - breakout sessions, etc.
quick resolutions - lists - breakout sessions, etc. ←
13:20:35 <csma> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-97 (earlier resolution removed its object).
PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-97 (earlier resolution removed its object). ←
13:20:47 <ChrisW> issue-97
13:20:50 <ChrisW> issue-97?
Christopher Welty: ISSUE-97? ←
13:20:50 <trackbot> ISSUE-97 -- Shoudl Core safeness be restricted to Eiter-Schindlauer safeness -- CLOSED
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-97 -- Shoudl Core safeness be restricted to Eiter-Schindlauer safeness -- CLOSED ←
13:20:50 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/97
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/97 ←
13:21:34 <cke> chrisw: we closed it but not resolve explicitely
Christopher Welty: we closed it but not resolve explicitely ←
13:21:46 <csma> RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-97 (earlier resolution removed its object).
RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-97 (earlier resolution removed its object). ←
13:22:01 <cke> next one
next one ←
13:22:12 <csma> PROPOSED: accept the minutes of April 7
PROPOSED: accept the minutes of April 7 ←
13:22:22 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2009/04/07-rif-minutes.html
Christopher Welty: http://www.w3.org/2009/04/07-rif-minutes.html ←
13:22:40 <csma> RESOLVED: : accept the minutes of April 7
RESOLVED: : accept the minutes of April 7 ←
13:22:45 <cke> next one
next one ←
13:23:34 <csma> PROPOSED: remove owl:real from RIF primitive data types.
PROPOSED: remove owl:real from RIF primitive data types. ←
13:24:31 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
Sandro Hawke: RRSAgent, pointer? ←
13:24:31 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2009/04/17-rif-irc#T13-24-31
RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2009/04/17-rif-irc#T13-24-31 ←
13:25:19 <sandro> Axel: Bijan and the owl Wiki confirm that owl:real is disjoint from float and double.
Axel Polleres: Bijan and the owl Wiki confirm that owl:real is disjoint from float and double. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
13:26:01 <cke> real subsumes rational, which subsumes decimal
real subsumes rational, which subsumes decimal ←
13:26:13 <csma> (See Axel's email and following thread: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Apr/0091.html)
Christian de Sainte Marie: (See Axel's email and following thread: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Apr/0091.html) ←
13:26:31 <csma> q?
Christian de Sainte Marie: q? ←
13:27:18 <DaveReynolds> q+
Dave Reynolds: q+ ←
13:27:29 <DaveReynolds> q-
Dave Reynolds: q- ←
13:27:45 <sandro> sandro: We should have isNumeric
Sandro Hawke: We should have isNumeric [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
13:27:47 <cke> sandro: I see no reason to keep owl:real
Sandro Hawke: I see no reason to keep owl:real ←
13:28:16 <cke> chrisw: what's the disadvantage? Why drop?
Christopher Welty: what's the disadvantage? Why drop? ←
13:28:52 <cke> axel: it's confusing. For example ...
Axel Polleres: it's confusing. For example ... ←
13:29:18 <DaveReynolds> Bijan said: "Of course, this would make owl:real harmless to support in RIF, perhaps. [snip] So I don't think it really matters one way or the other, technically. Socially, I think it helps not to have it since having things which are idle (when they are quite significant in other contexts) can be confusing."
Dave Reynolds: Bijan said: "Of course, this would make owl:real harmless to support in RIF, perhaps. [snip] So I don't think it really matters one way or the other, technically. Socially, I think it helps not to have it since having things which are idle (when they are quite significant in other contexts) can be confusing." ←
13:32:33 <csma> owl:real is the only reference to the owl namespace in RIF
Christian de Sainte Marie: owl:real is the only reference to the owl namespace in RIF ←
13:32:37 <cke> chrisw: Hierarchy is: real - rational - decimal, no further subclasses
Christopher Welty: Hierarchy is: real - rational - decimal, no further subclasses ←
13:33:30 <csma> PROPOSED: drop owl:real from RIF primitive data types.
PROPOSED: drop owl:real from RIF primitive data types. ←
13:33:47 <DaveReynolds> +1
Dave Reynolds: +1 ←
13:33:52 <AxelPolleres> +1
Axel Polleres: +1 ←
13:33:53 <AdrianP> +1
Adrian Paschke: +1 ←
13:33:55 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
13:33:56 <MichaelKifer> +1
Michael Kifer: +1 ←
13:34:00 <ChrisW> 0 see no harm in keeping it
Christopher Welty: 0 see no harm in keeping it ←
13:34:00 <Harold> +1
Harold Boley: +1 ←
13:34:01 <GaryHallmark> +1
Gary Hallmark: +1 ←
13:34:14 <csma> RESOLVED: drop owl:real from RIF primitive data types.
RESOLVED: drop owl:real from RIF primitive data types. ←
13:34:51 <cke> Now on the lists
Now on the lists ←
13:35:05 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Lists
Christopher Welty: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Lists ←
13:36:32 <cke> chrisw: we agree on the semantics of lists, we agree that the semantics can be described, ...
Christopher Welty: we agree on the semantics of lists, we agree that the semantics can be described, ... ←
13:37:18 <csma> PROPOSED: have lists in Core, as described in http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Lists, with the builtins listed there.
PROPOSED: have lists in Core, as described in http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Lists, with the builtins listed there. ←
13:38:23 <sandro> (Some remaining List issues: (1) mapping to/from RDF lists and sequences, (2) indexing )
Sandro Hawke: (Some remaining List issues: (1) mapping to/from RDF lists and sequences, (2) indexing ) ←
13:39:46 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
13:39:56 <cke> csma: some details need to be refined.
Christian de Sainte Marie: some details need to be refined. ←
13:40:50 <sandro> Other remaining List issue: can the list constructor syntactically include external or variable terms?
Sandro Hawke: Other remaining List issue: can the list constructor syntactically include external or variable terms? ←
13:41:03 <sandro> (ie what does ground list really mean)
Sandro Hawke: (ie what does ground list really mean) ←
13:41:19 <cke> jos: do we keep only grounded lists in Core?, we chose option 1
Jos de Bruijn: do we keep only grounded lists in Core?, we chose option 1 ←
13:41:43 <csma> PROPOSED: have lists, as described in http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Lists, with the builtins listed there (with only immutable ground lists in Core, per previous resolution). Closing ISSUE-
PROPOSED: have lists, as described in http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Lists, with the builtins listed there (with only immutable ground lists in Core, per previous resolution). Closing ISSUE- ←
13:42:19 <sandro> issue-95?
13:42:19 <trackbot> ISSUE-95 -- Does RIF need a primitive data type (and associated builtins) for lists? -- OPEN
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-95 -- Does RIF need a primitive data type (and associated builtins) for lists? -- OPEN ←
13:42:19 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/95
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/95 ←
13:42:24 <csma> PROPOSED: have lists in BLD, as described in http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Lists, with the builtins listed there (with only immutable ground lists in Core, per previous resolution). Closing ISSUE-95
PROPOSED: have lists in BLD, as described in http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Lists, with the builtins listed there (with only immutable ground lists in Core, per previous resolution). Closing ISSUE-95 ←
13:42:44 <GaryHallmark> +1
Gary Hallmark: +1 ←
13:42:59 <ChrisW> +1
Christopher Welty: +1 ←
13:43:00 <cke> +1
+1 ←
13:43:08 <sandro> noting that there are still several design issues about lists not yet resolved.
Sandro Hawke: noting that there are still several design issues about lists not yet resolved. ←
13:43:08 <AdrianP> 0
Adrian Paschke: 0 ←
13:43:08 <Harold> +1
Harold Boley: +1 ←
13:43:10 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
13:43:12 <DaveReynolds> 0
Dave Reynolds: 0 ←
13:43:17 <MichaelKifer> +1
Michael Kifer: +1 ←
13:43:34 <AxelPolleres> +1
Axel Polleres: +1 ←
13:43:48 <csma> RESOLVED: have lists in BLD, as described in http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Lists, with the builtins listed there (with only immutable ground lists in Core, per previous resolution). Closing ISSUE-95.
RESOLVED: have lists in BLD, as described in http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Lists, with the builtins listed there (with only immutable ground lists in Core, per previous resolution). Closing ISSUE-95. ←
13:44:00 <sandro> RRSAgent, make records public
Sandro Hawke: RRSAgent, make records public ←
13:44:28 <cke> csma: now need to solve design, editorial issues
Christian de Sainte Marie: now need to solve design, editorial issues ←
13:44:48 <AdrianP> decision on list built-ins was a quick majority vote - no thorough technical reasons for the current selection
Adrian Paschke: decision on list built-ins was a quick majority vote - no thorough technical reasons for the current selection ←
13:46:24 <csma> ACTION: michael to add the syntax and semantics of lists to BLD
ACTION: michael to add the syntax and semantics of lists to BLD ←
13:46:24 <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - michael
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - michael ←
13:46:24 <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. msintek, mkifer, merdmann)
Trackbot IRC Bot: Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. msintek, mkifer, merdmann) ←
13:46:36 <cke> we also need to change the schemas in Core, BLD and PRD
we also need to change the schemas in Core, BLD and PRD ←
13:46:45 <csma> ACTION: mkifer to add the syntax and semantics of lists to BLD
ACTION: mkifer to add the syntax and semantics of lists to BLD ←
13:46:45 <trackbot> Created ACTION-759 - Add the syntax and semantics of lists to BLD [on Michael Kifer - due 2009-04-24].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-759 - Add the syntax and semantics of lists to BLD [on Michael Kifer - due 2009-04-24]. ←
13:47:20 <csma> action: Sandro to add the list builtins in DTB
ACTION: Sandro to add the list builtins in DTB ←
13:47:20 <trackbot> Created ACTION-760 - Add the list builtins in DTB [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-04-24].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-760 - Add the list builtins in DTB [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-04-24]. ←
13:47:58 <csma> ACTION: Adrian to add the restriction on list in Core
ACTION: Adrian to add the restriction on list in Core ←
13:47:58 <trackbot> Created ACTION-761 - Add the restriction on list in Core [on Adrian Paschke - due 2009-04-24].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-761 - Add the restriction on list in Core [on Adrian Paschke - due 2009-04-24]. ←
13:48:38 <csma> Action: Harold amends the XML schema for Core.
ACTION: Harold amends the XML schema for Core. ←
13:48:38 <trackbot> Created ACTION-762 - Amends the XML schema for Core. [on Harold Boley - due 2009-04-24].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-762 - Amends the XML schema for Core. [on Harold Boley - due 2009-04-24]. ←
13:49:15 <csma> ACTION: Gary add lists to PRD.
ACTION: Gary add lists to PRD. ←
13:49:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-763 - Add lists to PRD. [on Gary Hallmark - due 2009-04-24].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-763 - Add lists to PRD. [on Gary Hallmark - due 2009-04-24]. ←
13:49:48 <cke> list of issues now
list of issues now ←
13:50:11 <ChrisW> action: chris to close issue-95
ACTION: chris to close ISSUE-95 ←
13:50:11 <trackbot> Created ACTION-764 - Close issue-95 [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-04-24].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-764 - Close ISSUE-95 [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-04-24]. ←
13:50:57 <cke> Issues are 98, 77, etc.
Issues are 98, 77, etc. ←
13:52:04 <cke> Issue 98: update all specs to reference xml scema datatype 1.1
ISSUE-98: update all specs to reference xml scema datatype 1.1 ←
13:53:57 <cke> discussion about how wiki can support references to XML, XML data types
discussion about how wiki can support references to XML, XML data types ←
13:54:39 <cke> chrisw: we still have to update the documents to use datatypes 1.1
Christopher Welty: we still have to update the documents to use datatypes 1.1 ←
13:57:55 <csma> Action: sandro to make the references be to XML schema 1.1 in all RIF documents
ACTION: sandro to make the references be to XML schema 1.1 in all RIF documents ←
13:57:56 <trackbot> Created ACTION-765 - Make the references be to XML schema 1.1 in all RIF documents [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-04-24].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-765 - Make the references be to XML schema 1.1 in all RIF documents [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-04-24]. ←
13:58:26 <csma> PROPOSED: Close issue-98, based on action 765.
PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-98, based on ACTION-765. ←
13:58:37 <ChrisW> +1
Christopher Welty: +1 ←
13:58:40 <DaveReynolds> +1
Dave Reynolds: +1 ←
13:58:43 <AdrianP> +1
Adrian Paschke: +1 ←
13:59:10 <Harold> +0.99
Harold Boley: +0.99 ←
13:59:39 <cke> axel: xpath function still references datatypes 1.0. Is this a problem?
Axel Polleres: xpath function still references datatypes 1.0. Is this a problem? ←
14:00:01 <AxelPolleres> 0 unclear what the implication with XPath F&O is
Axel Polleres: 0 unclear what the implication with XPath F&O is ←
14:00:02 <cke> sandro: will finf out later
Sandro Hawke: will finf out later ←
14:00:12 <sandro> sandro: We could ask XS or XP folks ...
Sandro Hawke: We could ask XS or XP folks ... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:00:13 <ChrisW> action: Chris to close issue-98
ACTION: Chris to close ISSUE-98 ←
14:00:13 <trackbot> Created ACTION-766 - Close issue-98 [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-04-24].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-766 - Close ISSUE-98 [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-04-24]. ←
14:00:14 <sandro> _+1
Sandro Hawke: _+1 ←
14:00:15 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
14:00:36 <csma> RESOLVED: Close issue-98, based on action 765.
RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-98, based on ACTION-765. ←
14:01:22 <cke> topic: breakout sessions
14:02:36 <cke> csma: editors should meet, they can plan the work, then we' ll see
Christian de Sainte Marie: editors should meet, they can plan the work, then we' ll see ←
14:05:05 <csma> Topic: issue 37
14:05:49 <cke> combination of RIF and XML data, and/or XML schemas
combination of RIF and XML data, and/or XML schemas ←
14:06:05 <csma> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RIF%2BXML_data-schema
Christian de Sainte Marie: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RIF%2BXML_data-schema ←
14:06:24 <cke> there are 2 strawman proposal in the wiki
there are 2 strawman proposal in the wiki ←
14:07:33 <cke> csma: one for combining RIF with XML schemas, other: same thing, roughly
Christian de Sainte Marie: one for combining RIF with XML schemas, other: same thing, roughly ←
14:08:57 <cke> First: map frames to XML instance, second: more schema related, linked to the style
First: map frames to XML instance, second: more schema related, linked to the style ←
14:09:27 <cke> First: possible to use the XML data without schema, for instance
First: possible to use the XML data without schema, for instance ←
14:10:21 <cke> Second: you need a schema, it's necessary. The ref to data is through the schema
Second: you need a schema, it's necessary. The ref to data is through the schema ←
14:11:06 <cke> csma: the second option should address the only OO model, while mine is more general
Christian de Sainte Marie: the second option should address the only OO model, while mine is more general ←
14:11:23 <cke> csma: but they are not incompatibles, we can keep them, or mix the two
Christian de Sainte Marie: but they are not incompatibles, we can keep them, or mix the two ←
14:11:37 <cke> sandro: can you show some examples?
Sandro Hawke: can you show some examples? ←
14:12:43 <cke> csma: look at the example if shiporder fragment
Christian de Sainte Marie: look at the example if shiporder fragment ←
14:13:04 <cke> now look at the rule
now look at the rule ←
14:14:48 <cke> csma: the doc should be updated with namespaces qualifications
Christian de Sainte Marie: the doc should be updated with namespaces qualifications ←
14:22:28 <cke> csma: the RIf rules should be the same regardless the source of data, which can be XML, OWL, etc.
(No events recorded for 7 minutes)
Christian de Sainte Marie: the RIf rules should be the same regardless the source of data, which can be XML, OWL, etc. ←
14:22:47 <cke> csma: we just have to change the import section, rules will be portable
Christian de Sainte Marie: we just have to change the import section, rules will be portable ←
14:23:27 <cke> csma: it remains a few minor issues: attribute, namespace, etc.
Christian de Sainte Marie: it remains a few minor issues: attribute, namespace, etc. ←
14:24:25 <cke> the other approach is to rely on the xml schemas
the other approach is to rely on the xml schemas ←
14:27:53 <AdrianP> could be generalized to a general approach to allow constructive queries on external data sources, e.g. SPARQL, SQL, XPATH, XQUERY
Adrian Paschke: could be generalized to a general approach to allow constructive queries on external data sources, e.g. SPARQL, SQL, XPATH, XQUERY ←
14:30:05 <cke> Gary's proposal starts with a schema
Gary's proposal starts with a schema ←
14:32:36 <cke> Expressions using some kind of XPath lead to values
Expressions using some kind of XPath lead to values ←
14:33:00 <cke> it's very straight
it's very straight ←
14:35:38 <sandro> sandro: you could implement this as a pre-processor, turning an XML document, with or without a schema, into a RIF document consisting of just frame assertions.
Sandro Hawke: you could implement this as a pre-processor, turning an XML document, with or without a schema, into a RIF document consisting of just frame assertions. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:36:19 <cke> But we need typing information. We need the XML schema at the end, otherwise PRD engines cannot work
But we need typing information. We need the XML schema at the end, otherwise PRD engines cannot work ←
14:37:19 <sandro> sandro: when you import from some URI, you get a frame like (that_url) [ rif:root-element -> the_root_element ]
Sandro Hawke: when you import from some URI, you get a frame like (that_url) [ rif:root-element -> the_root_element ] [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:39:24 <sandro> sandro: this is like SWC, orthogonal to RIF, but defines a way to use RIF with XML data.
Sandro Hawke: this is like SWC, orthogonal to RIF, but defines a way to use RIF with XML data. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:42:06 <cke> mk: Can you put rif:IRI everywhere? Issue with @attribute?
Michael Kifer: Can you put rif:IRI everywhere? Issue with @attribute? ←
14:43:56 <sandro> sandro: they are rif:iri's that happen to kind of look like xpath expressions.
Sandro Hawke: they are rif:iri's that happen to kind of look like xpath expressions. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:44:49 <cke> csma: the expression are not xpath based, even they appear to resemble to xpath
Christian de Sainte Marie: the expression are not xpath based, even they appear to resemble to xpath ←
14:47:09 <sandro> poll: -1 don't publish anything on this in the next few months; 0 don't care; +1 publish a WD on this soon
Axel Polleres: -1 don't publish anything on this in the next few months; 0 don't care; +1 publish a WD on this soon [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:47:22 <GaryHallmark> +1
Gary Hallmark: +1 ←
14:47:24 <sandro> +0.75
Sandro Hawke: +0.75 ←
14:47:28 <csma> +1
Christian de Sainte Marie: +1 ←
14:47:29 <AxelPolleres> 0
Axel Polleres: 0 ←
14:47:36 <Harold> +1
Harold Boley: +1 ←
14:47:44 <MichaelKifer> +1
Michael Kifer: +1 ←
14:47:46 <AdrianP> +1
Adrian Paschke: +1 ←
14:47:48 <cke> +1 (but I would like to refine the technical solution)
+1 (but I would like to refine the technical solution) ←
14:47:49 <josb> +1
Jos de Bruijn: +1 ←
14:48:01 <DaveReynolds> +0.2
Dave Reynolds: +0.2 ←
14:48:17 <ChrisW> -1
Christopher Welty: -1 ←
14:48:18 <GaryHallmark> I think we can do this with no new syntax except an import statement
Gary Hallmark: I think we can do this with no new syntax except an import statement ←
14:48:58 <josb> +1 to no new syntax
Jos de Bruijn: +1 to no new syntax ←
14:49:16 <csma> +1 to no new syntax
Christian de Sainte Marie: +1 to no new syntax ←
14:49:20 <sandro> break until 11:10
Sandro Hawke: break until 11:10 ←
14:49:26 <csma> q?
Christian de Sainte Marie: q? ←
14:49:31 <cke> break till 11:10
break till 11:10 ←
14:49:33 <Zakim> -DaveReynolds
Zakim IRC Bot: -DaveReynolds ←
14:49:51 <GaryHallmark> e.g. import (myDoc) generates a _myDoc[rif:root->x] frame that points to the root element from myDoc
Gary Hallmark: e.g. import (myDoc) generates a _myDoc[rif:root->x] frame that points to the root element from myDoc ←
14:58:20 <sandro> sandro and gary chatting --- (1) PSVI / type information; without it you need to cast in your rules -- import needs a flag about whether you'll get all strings or typed values;
(No events recorded for 8 minutes)
Sandro Hawke: sandro and gary chatting --- (1) PSVI / type information; without it you need to cast in your rules -- import needs a flag about whether you'll get all strings or typed values; ←
14:58:56 <sandro> --- (2) ordering information -- do you get multiple values and lose the ordering, or do you get rif:Lists for everything? that's another flag on import.
Sandro Hawke: --- (2) ordering information -- do you get multiple values and lose the ordering, or do you get rif:Lists for everything? that's another flag on import. ←
14:59:39 <sandro> --- (3) what about striping? gary says we can probably just assuming the element names are all property names -- it's like an OO x.y.z. expression; sandro says yeah, that might work, maybe.
Sandro Hawke: --- (3) what about striping? gary says we can probably just assuming the element names are all property names -- it's like an OO x.y.z. expression; sandro says yeah, that might work, maybe. ←
15:03:07 <sandro> --- (4) id/idref
Sandro Hawke: --- (4) id/idref ←
15:14:53 <csma> Topic: FLD
(No events recorded for 11 minutes)
15:14:58 <Zakim> -MIT-G631
Zakim IRC Bot: -MIT-G631 ←
15:14:59 <Zakim> SW_RIF(F2F)8:00AM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RIF(F2F)8:00AM has ended ←
15:15:00 <Zakim> Attendees were DaveReynolds, MIT-G631
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were DaveReynolds, MIT-G631 ←
15:15:07 <csma> scribe: John Hall
(Scribe set to John Hall)
15:15:16 <csma> scribenick: johnhall
15:15:21 <johnhall> Michael: organized FLD for more dialects
Michael Kifer: organized FLD for more dialects ←
15:15:37 <johnhall> Michael: added aggregates and modules
Michael Kifer: added aggregates and modules ←
15:15:59 <johnhall> Michael: now need to add lists and complete the XML work
Michael Kifer: now need to add lists and complete the XML work ←
15:16:20 <johnhall> ChrisW: same as BLD
Christopher Welty: same as BLD ←
15:16:25 <johnhall> Michael: yes
Michael Kifer: yes ←
15:16:52 <johnhall> Michael: XML schema syntax, now harder
Michael Kifer: XML schema syntax, now harder ←
15:17:27 <johnhall> Chrisw: to account for generalized quntifiers
Christopher Welty: to account for generalized quntifiers ←
15:18:01 <johnhall> Michael: feedback from last draft - from mail archives
Michael Kifer: feedback from last draft - from mail archives ←
15:19:06 <johnhall> josb: last draft July 2008
Jos de Bruijn: last draft July 2008 ←
15:20:08 <johnhall> ChrisW: lists and XML syntax - all that needs to be done
Christopher Welty: lists and XML syntax - all that needs to be done ←
15:20:41 <johnhall> ChrisW: imports - specialization of modules
Christopher Welty: imports - specialization of modules ←
15:20:48 <johnhall> Michael: didn't do
Michael Kifer: didn't do ←
15:21:24 <johnhall> Michael: How to proceed with other dialects?
Michael Kifer: How to proceed with other dialects? ←
15:21:37 <johnhall> csma: another agenda item
Christian de Sainte Marie: another agenda item ←
15:21:54 <johnhall> ChrisW: for FLD to pass to rec we need implementations
Christopher Welty: for FLD to pass to rec we need implementations ←
15:22:31 <johnhall> ChrisW: individuals should work on dialects and submit as member contributions
Christopher Welty: individuals should work on dialects and submit as member contributions ←
15:22:53 <johnhall> Michael: cumbersome
Michael Kifer: cumbersome ←
15:23:06 <johnhall> Sandro: costs a lot to keep a group running
Sandro Hawke: costs a lot to keep a group running ←
15:24:30 <johnhall> Sandro: regardless of whether WG continues with FLD, we need people to implement and report back
Sandro Hawke: regardless of whether WG continues with FLD, we need people to implement and report back ←
15:25:11 <johnhall> Harold: we need 2 implementations of FLD. We have one - what could be the other?
Harold Boley: we need 2 implementations of FLD. We have one - what could be the other? ←
15:26:22 <johnhall> ChrisW: in order for FLD to reach rec, other implementations don't need to standards
Christopher Welty: in order for FLD to reach rec, other implementations don't need to standards ←
15:27:01 <csma> Topic: last call plan
15:27:30 <johnhall> ChrisW: wiki page called 'Last Call Plans'
Christopher Welty: wiki page called 'Last Call Plans' ←
15:27:41 <csma> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/LastCallPlan
Christian de Sainte Marie: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/LastCallPlan ←
15:28:03 <johnhall> ChrisW: most important - 6 documents for last call
Christopher Welty: most important - 6 documents for last call ←
15:28:22 <johnhall> ... are we going to release BLD with a new last call?
... are we going to release BLD with a new last call? ←
15:28:46 <johnhall> ... adding lists seems significant
... adding lists seems significant ←
15:29:04 <johnhall> josb: predicates with multiple arities
Jos de Bruijn: predicates with multiple arities ←
15:29:23 <johnhall> ChrisW: big impact on implementations
Christopher Welty: big impact on implementations ←
15:29:40 <johnhall> Sandro: need to give people a chance to object
Sandro Hawke: need to give people a chance to object ←
15:29:52 <johnhall> ChrisW: second last call for BLD?
Christopher Welty: second last call for BLD? ←
15:31:00 <johnhall> csma: restrict scope of comments to just the concerns here
Christian de Sainte Marie: restrict scope of comments to just the concerns here ←
15:33:01 <johnhall> Sandro: WG is not gong to make changes except in response to external input
Sandro Hawke: WG is not gong to make changes except in response to external input ←
15:33:28 <sandro> sandro: While I think the bulk of the WG wants NAUs gone, I don't think it's appropriate for us be making changes like that now.
Sandro Hawke: While I think the bulk of the WG wants NAUs gone, I don't think it's appropriate for us be making changes like that now. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:34:14 <johnhall> ChrisW: plan for future is to have enough meetings to deal with external input
Christopher Welty: plan for future is to have enough meetings to deal with external input ←
15:34:42 <johnhall> Harold: risk of losing commitment from WG members' employers
Harold Boley: risk of losing commitment from WG members' employers ←
15:35:20 <johnhall> Sandro: all want to get to rec
Sandro Hawke: all want to get to rec ←
15:36:12 <johnhall> ChrisW: restrict BLD comment to just the changes since last 'last call'?
Christopher Welty: restrict BLD comment to just the changes since last 'last call'? ←
15:36:27 <Harold> http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr.html#last-call
Harold Boley: http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr.html#last-call ←
15:36:48 <johnhall> csma: difficult to manage
Christian de Sainte Marie: difficult to manage ←
15:37:01 <johnhall> Michael: list of changes to BLD
Michael Kifer: list of changes to BLD ←
15:37:56 <johnhall> Harold: look at 'last-call' process. What are we allowed to do next?
Harold Boley: look at 'last-call' process. What are we allowed to do next? ←
15:38:30 <johnhall> Michael: we say we are acting in good faith and must provide help to implementers
Michael Kifer: we say we are acting in good faith and must provide help to implementers ←
15:39:26 <johnhall> ChrisW: significant BLD changes are only arities and lists
Christopher Welty: significant BLD changes are only arities and lists ←
15:39:45 <johnhall> Sandro: easier to manage of everything foes to last call
Sandro Hawke: easier to manage of everything foes to last call ←
15:40:22 <johnhall> josb: How can you have a BLD implementation without DTB?
Jos de Bruijn: How can you have a BLD implementation without DTB? ←
15:42:06 <johnhall> Harold: risk of what might come in
Harold Boley: risk of what might come in ←
15:42:24 <johnhall> csma: if there is a show-stopper, we need to know
Christian de Sainte Marie: if there is a show-stopper, we need to know ←
15:43:07 <johnhall> ChrisW: looking in detail at the list, less concerned about going to last call
Christopher Welty: looking in detail at the list, less concerned about going to last call ←
15:43:27 <johnhall> csma: would prefer to go with all as a whole
Christian de Sainte Marie: would prefer to go with all as a whole ←
15:44:34 <johnhall> Sandro: we can include a paragraph about a second last call, and why it might be needed
Sandro Hawke: we can include a paragraph about a second last call, and why it might be needed ←
15:45:01 <sandro> sandro: We'll explain in the Second Last Call paragraph that the biggest changes were the inclusion of lists and allowing multiple arity symbols, but that the main reason for LC2 is just to keep all of RIF in sync.
Sandro Hawke: We'll explain in the Second Last Call paragraph that the biggest changes were the inclusion of lists and allowing multiple arity symbols, but that the main reason for LC2 is just to keep all of RIF in sync. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:45:51 <johnhall> Michael: if we don't do LC2
Michael Kifer: if we don't do LC2 ←
15:46:25 <johnhall> Sandro: options are LC2, candidate recommendation, member contribution
Sandro Hawke: options are LC2, candidate recommendation, member contribution ←
15:47:21 <johnhall> ... downplay the different specs, present RIF as one thing
... downplay the different specs, present RIF as one thing ←
15:48:25 <sandro> kifer: LC2 --- give people a chance to comment on rif-as-a-whole.
Michael Kifer: LC2 --- give people a chance to comment on rif-as-a-whole. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:48:34 <johnhall> Michael: say that we want to give people a chance to comment on RIF as a whole
Michael Kifer: say that we want to give people a chance to comment on RIF as a whole ←
15:48:59 <sandro> PROPOSED: Our next publication of BLD will be as a second Last Call
PROPOSED: Our next publication of BLD will be as a second Last Call ←
15:49:42 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
15:49:45 <johnhall> +1
+1 ←
15:49:46 <ChrisW> +1
Christopher Welty: +1 ←
15:49:46 <MichaelKifer> 0
Michael Kifer: 0 ←
15:49:46 <cke> +1
Changhai Ke: +1 ←
15:49:48 <sandro> (it's simpler)
Sandro Hawke: (it's simpler) ←
15:49:49 <Harold> 0
Harold Boley: 0 ←
15:49:51 <csma> +1
Christian de Sainte Marie: +1 ←
15:49:51 <josb> +1
Jos de Bruijn: +1 ←
15:49:54 <AxelPolleres> +1
Axel Polleres: +1 ←
15:49:57 <GaryHallmark> +1
Gary Hallmark: +1 ←
15:49:58 <StellaMitchell> +1
Stella Mitchell: +1 ←
15:50:01 <AdrianP> +1
Adrian Paschke: +1 ←
15:50:07 <sandro> RESOLVED: Our next publication of BLD will be as a second Last Call
RESOLVED: Our next publication of BLD will be as a second Last Call ←
15:50:36 <sandro> note that the same is true for SWC, but it's not controversial
Sandro Hawke: note that the same is true for SWC, but it's not controversial ←
15:51:24 <sandro> PROPOSED: Our next publication of SWC will be as a second Last Call
PROPOSED: Our next publication of SWC will be as a second Last Call ←
15:51:27 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
15:51:32 <ChrisW> +1
Christopher Welty: +1 ←
15:51:33 <josb> +1
Jos de Bruijn: +1 ←
15:51:34 <AdrianP> +1
Adrian Paschke: +1 ←
15:51:34 <johnhall> +
+ ←
15:51:36 <Harold> +1
Harold Boley: +1 ←
15:51:38 <MichaelKifer> +1
Michael Kifer: +1 ←
15:51:38 <csma> +1
Christian de Sainte Marie: +1 ←
15:51:41 <sandro> RESOLVED: Our next publication of SWC will be as a second Last Call
RESOLVED: Our next publication of SWC will be as a second Last Call ←
15:52:23 <johnhall> ChrisW: need 2 reviewers for each document
Christopher Welty: need 2 reviewers for each document ←
15:52:38 <johnhall> ... everyone does 1, can do more
... everyone does 1, can do more ←
15:52:59 <sandro> action: harold review PRD
ACTION: harold review PRD ←
15:52:59 <trackbot> Created ACTION-767 - Review PRD [on Harold Boley - due 2009-04-24].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-767 - Review PRD [on Harold Boley - due 2009-04-24]. ←
15:53:09 <johnhall> csma: editors do not review their own documents
Christian de Sainte Marie: editors do not review their own documents ←
15:53:50 <sandro> action: cke review Core
ACTION: cke review Core ←
15:53:50 <trackbot> Created ACTION-768 - Review Core [on Changhai Ke - due 2009-04-24].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-768 - Review Core [on Changhai Ke - due 2009-04-24]. ←
15:53:52 <sandro> action: cke review PRD
ACTION: cke review PRD ←
15:53:53 <trackbot> Created ACTION-769 - Review PRD [on Changhai Ke - due 2009-04-24].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-769 - Review PRD [on Changhai Ke - due 2009-04-24]. ←
15:54:05 <sandro> action: jos review Core
ACTION: jos review Core ←
15:54:05 <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - jos
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - jos ←
15:54:05 <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jdebruij2, jderoo)
Trackbot IRC Bot: Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jdebruij2, jderoo) ←
15:54:08 <sandro> action: josb review Core
ACTION: josb review Core ←
15:54:08 <trackbot> Created ACTION-770 - Review Core [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2009-04-24].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-770 - Review Core [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2009-04-24]. ←
15:54:14 <sandro> action: josb review DTB
ACTION: josb review DTB ←
15:54:14 <trackbot> Created ACTION-771 - Review DTB [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2009-04-24].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-771 - Review DTB [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2009-04-24]. ←
15:54:22 <sandro> action: axel review swc
ACTION: axel review swc ←
15:54:22 <trackbot> Created ACTION-772 - Review swc [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-04-24].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-772 - Review swc [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-04-24]. ←
15:54:28 <sandro> action: axel review BLD
ACTION: axel review BLD ←
15:54:28 <trackbot> Created ACTION-773 - Review BLD [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-04-24].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-773 - Review BLD [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-04-24]. ←
15:55:03 <sandro> action: chris review FLD
ACTION: chris review FLD ←
15:55:03 <trackbot> Created ACTION-774 - Review FLD [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-04-24].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-774 - Review FLD [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-04-24]. ←
15:55:27 <sandro> action: adrian review dtb
ACTION: adrian review dtb ←
15:55:27 <trackbot> Created ACTION-775 - Review dtb [on Adrian Paschke - due 2009-04-24].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-775 - Review dtb [on Adrian Paschke - due 2009-04-24]. ←
15:55:34 <sandro> action: csma review bld
ACTION: csma review bld ←
15:55:34 <trackbot> Created ACTION-776 - Review bld [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2009-04-24].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-776 - Review bld [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2009-04-24]. ←
15:55:54 <sandro> action: josb review prd (lower priority than his other reviews)
ACTION: josb review prd (lower priority than his other reviews) ←
15:55:54 <trackbot> Created ACTION-777 - Review prd (lower priority than his other reviews) [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2009-04-24].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-777 - Review prd (lower priority than his other reviews) [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2009-04-24]. ←
15:56:02 <sandro> action: stella review FLD
ACTION: stella review FLD ←
15:56:02 <trackbot> Created ACTION-778 - Review FLD [on Stella Mitchell - due 2009-04-24].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-778 - Review FLD [on Stella Mitchell - due 2009-04-24]. ←
15:56:11 <sandro> action: gary review SWC
ACTION: gary review SWC ←
15:56:11 <trackbot> Created ACTION-779 - Review SWC [on Gary Hallmark - due 2009-04-24].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-779 - Review SWC [on Gary Hallmark - due 2009-04-24]. ←
15:58:38 <johnhall> ChrisW: actions on core (from last call page)
Christopher Welty: actions on core (from last call page) ←
15:59:47 <johnhall> josb: Core - need to deal with some problems on formulas
Jos de Bruijn: Core - need to deal with some problems on formulas ←
15:59:57 <johnhall> ... section 2.3 of Core spec
... section 2.3 of Core spec ←
16:00:33 <johnhall> ChrisW: get rid of second bullet?
Christopher Welty: get rid of second bullet? ←
16:01:03 <johnhall> csma: resolution - external can appear everywhere a term can
Christian de Sainte Marie: resolution - external can appear everywhere a term can ←
16:05:11 <johnhall> ChrisW: nothing at risk in Core
Christopher Welty: nothing at risk in Core ←
16:09:29 <johnhall> ChrisW: actions on BLD
Christopher Welty: actions on BLD ←
16:10:35 <johnhall> csma: resolution to modularize schema
Christian de Sainte Marie: resolution to modularize schema ←
16:10:56 <johnhall> Harold: is already modularized
Harold Boley: is already modularized ←
16:11:23 <johnhall> ... if we have a lot of includes, from experience is harder to maintain
... if we have a lot of includes, from experience is harder to maintain ←
16:11:49 <johnhall> Gary: there is substantial duplication
Gary Hallmark: there is substantial duplication ←
16:12:01 <johnhall> Harold: Core is not stable
Harold Boley: Core is not stable ←
16:12:59 <johnhall> csma: there is a resolutin that Core schema will be included in BLD and PRD
Christian de Sainte Marie: there is a resolutin that Core schema will be included in BLD and PRD ←
16:13:24 <johnhall> cke: we need to explain the architecture
Changhai Ke: we need to explain the architecture ←
16:14:27 <johnhall> Gary: would be willing to refactor the schema
Gary Hallmark: would be willing to refactor the schema ←
16:14:47 <ChrisW> action: gary to refactor BLD schema to import Core (help from cke)
ACTION: gary to refactor BLD schema to import Core (help from cke) ←
16:14:47 <trackbot> Created ACTION-780 - Refactor BLD schema to import Core (help from cke) [on Gary Hallmark - due 2009-04-24].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-780 - Refactor BLD schema to import Core (help from cke) [on Gary Hallmark - due 2009-04-24]. ←
16:16:38 <johnhall> csma: why does FLD have a schema - it's not a dialect
Christian de Sainte Marie: why does FLD have a schema - it's not a dialect ←
16:16:50 <johnhall> Michael: it's a framework
Michael Kifer: it's a framework ←
16:17:29 <johnhall> ChrisW: copy and edit from BLD?
Christopher Welty: copy and edit from BLD? ←
16:18:03 <johnhall> ... if so, relationships need to me maintained over imports
... if so, relationships need to me maintained over imports ←
16:19:01 <johnhall> s/be/me/
s/be/me/ ←
16:20:34 <johnhall> ChrisW: actions on SWC
Christopher Welty: actions on SWC ←
16:21:48 <johnhall> josb: three more actions added
Jos de Bruijn: three more actions added ←
16:22:10 <johnhall> ChrisW: actions on DTB
Christopher Welty: actions on DTB ←
16:24:29 <johnhall> Axel: need to refine definitions of mapping for all informal built-ins
Axel Polleres: need to refine definitions of mapping for all informal built-ins ←
16:24:51 <johnhall> ChrisW: actions on PRD
Christopher Welty: actions on PRD ←
16:28:04 <johnhall> csma: four items added
Christian de Sainte Marie: four items added ←
16:28:46 <sandro> $ echo tag$RANDOM
Sandro Hawke: $ echo tag$RANDOM ←
16:28:46 <sandro> tag30193
Sandro Hawke: tag30193 ←
16:29:11 <Harold> NmNot could be renamed to Inot (for Inflationary not).
Harold Boley: NmNot could be renamed to Inot (for Inflationary not). ←
16:29:22 <johnhall> Adrian: tag for 'pnot'
Adrian Paschke: tag for 'pnot' ←
16:29:52 <AdrianP> semantics of PRD probably needs to be revisited - see PRD test cases on retract, assert combinations
Adrian Paschke: semantics of PRD probably needs to be revisited - see PRD test cases on retract, assert combinations ←
16:29:57 <johnhall> ChrisW: actions on Core
Christopher Welty: actions on Core ←
16:30:41 <johnhall> Harold: ready for review by April 30
Harold Boley: ready for review by April 30 ←
16:31:00 <johnhall> ChrisW: actions on BLD
Christopher Welty: actions on BLD ←
16:32:48 <johnhall> Michael: ready for review April 24, except XML part
Michael Kifer: ready for review April 24, except XML part ←
16:33:08 <johnhall> Harold: XML modularization by April 30
Harold Boley: XML modularization by April 30 ←
16:33:34 <johnhall> ChrisW: actions on SWC
Christopher Welty: actions on SWC ←
16:33:55 <johnhall> josb: May 4
Jos de Bruijn: May 4 ←
16:34:35 <ChrisW> action: josb to write some list test cases
ACTION: josb to write some list test cases ←
16:34:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-781 - Write some list test cases [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2009-04-24].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-781 - Write some list test cases [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2009-04-24]. ←
16:34:55 <johnhall> ChrisW: actions on DTB
Christopher Welty: actions on DTB ←
16:35:33 <johnhall> Axel: April 30
Axel Polleres: April 30 ←
16:35:45 <johnhall> ChrisW: actions on PRD
Christopher Welty: actions on PRD ←
16:36:08 <johnhall> csma: April 30
Christian de Sainte Marie: April 30 ←
16:36:20 <johnhall> ChrisW: actions on FLD
Christopher Welty: actions on FLD ←
16:37:16 <johnhall> ... all documents ready for review by May 4
... all documents ready for review by May 4 ←
16:37:26 <johnhall> ... last call vote on May 12
... last call vote on May 12 ←
17:41:50 <AxelPolleres> scribe: Axel Polleres
(No events recorded for 64 minutes)
(Scribe set to Axel Polleres)
17:41:59 <AxelPolleres> scribenick: AxelPolleres
17:42:13 <AxelPolleres> topic: future of the WG
17:42:50 <AxelPolleres> csma: we talk about the time between and of may and end of november
Christian de Sainte Marie: we talk about the time between and of may and end of november ←
17:43:14 <AxelPolleres> .... if we have all docs at lc end of may, we are done basically.
.... if we have all docs at lc end of may, we are done basically. ←
17:43:24 <AxelPolleres> chrisw: 3 work items remaining.
Christopher Welty: 3 work items remaining. ←
17:43:38 <AxelPolleres> ... 1) comments 2) tests 3) xml data
... 1) comments 2) tests 3) xml data ←
17:43:43 <sandro> chrisw: three things to do after LC: responding to public comments, test, and xml-data.
Christopher Welty: three things to do after LC: responding to public comments, test, and xml-data. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
17:44:09 <AxelPolleres> ... reduced time committments, no more weekly telecons.
... reduced time committments, no more weekly telecons. ←
17:44:30 <AxelPolleres> csma: probably we sshould have monthly, and more as necessary.
Christian de Sainte Marie: probably we sshould have monthly, and more as necessary. ←
17:44:43 <AxelPolleres> ... monthly sync point seems reasonable.
... monthly sync point seems reasonable. ←
17:45:29 <AxelPolleres> chrisw: possibly adding task forces as we do now with specific topics.
Christopher Welty: possibly adding task forces as we do now with specific topics. ←
17:45:44 <AxelPolleres> sandro: we miss one item: implementations.
Sandro Hawke: we miss one item: implementations. ←
17:46:58 <AxelPolleres> chrisw: deadline for comments 4 weeks from lc... probably end of june.
Christopher Welty: deadline for comments 4 weeks from lc... probably end of june. ←
17:47:22 <AxelPolleres> sandro: we probably publish may 19
Sandro Hawke: we probably publish may 19 ←
17:47:35 <AxelPolleres> ... comment deadline june 16
... comment deadline june 16 ←
17:47:57 <AxelPolleres> ... depends a lot how many comments we get and how hard they are to implement.
... depends a lot how many comments we get and how hard they are to implement. ←
17:48:17 <AxelPolleres> chrisw: what is the cr period?
Christopher Welty: what is the cr period? ←
17:48:28 <AxelPolleres> sandro: runs as long as you need to get implementations.
Sandro Hawke: runs as long as you need to get implementations. ←
17:48:52 <AxelPolleres> ... to some extent we can define ourselves what "implementations" mean.
... to some extent we can define ourselves what "implementations" mean. ←
17:49:16 <AxelPolleres> ... general rules whould be tewo interoperating implementations per dialect.
... general rules whould be tewo interoperating implementations per dialect. ←
17:49:39 <AxelPolleres> jos: means 4 implementations, 2 prd, 2 bld which are interoperable.
Jos de Bruijn: means 4 implementations, 2 prd, 2 bld which are interoperable. ←
17:50:32 <AxelPolleres> sandro: should we target CR mid july?
Sandro Hawke: should we target CR mid july? ←
17:50:35 <sandro> LC pub on 19 May, comment deadline 16 June, ...
Sandro Hawke: LC pub on 19 May, comment deadline 16 June, ... ←
17:50:44 <AxelPolleres> csma: that is optimistic.
Christian de Sainte Marie: that is optimistic. ←
17:50:49 <sandro> Optimisitcally, go to CR 15 July
Sandro Hawke: Optimisitcally, go to CR 15 July ←
17:51:31 <AxelPolleres> ... announcement must indicate a minimum duration.
... announcement must indicate a minimum duration. ←
17:51:53 <AxelPolleres> sandro: do we need producers or jsut consumers?
Sandro Hawke: do we need producers or jsut consumers? ←
17:52:08 <AxelPolleres> cke: we should do both.
Changhai Ke: we should do both. ←
17:52:33 <AxelPolleres> josb: what do we need for SWC? somewhat swc defines a bunch of new dialects.
Jos de Bruijn: what do we need for SWC? somewhat swc defines a bunch of new dialects. ←
17:54:11 <AxelPolleres> mk: swc with OWL DL needs a SWRL implementation
Michael Kifer: swc with OWL DL needs a SWRL implementation ←
17:54:30 <AxelPolleres> josb: there are implementations of dl safe swrl.
Jos de Bruijn: there are implementations of dl safe swrl. ←
17:54:46 <AxelPolleres> ... someone could make an implementation on top of that.
... someone could make an implementation on top of that. ←
17:55:04 <AxelPolleres> ... I assume the jena people will do something for Core+RDF?
... I assume the jena people will do something for Core+RDF? ←
17:56:02 <AxelPolleres> axel: depends whether I find someone to write a parser/compiler to dlvhex.
Axel Polleres: depends whether I find someone to write a parser/compiler to dlvhex. ←
17:56:23 <AxelPolleres> harold: flora-2?
Harold Boley: flora-2? ←
17:56:51 <AxelPolleres> mk: I would add a new reader, I guess.
Michael Kifer: I would add a new reader, I guess. ←
17:57:17 <AxelPolleres> sandro: you (mk) would expcet do have a BLD implementation?
Sandro Hawke: you (mk) would expcet do have a BLD implementation? ←
17:57:29 <AxelPolleres> mk: also a matter of finding a student.
Michael Kifer: also a matter of finding a student. ←
17:58:26 <AxelPolleres> csma: finding people to implement is time consuming.
Christian de Sainte Marie: finding people to implement is time consuming. ←
17:58:45 <AxelPolleres> sandro: so, do we need a 1month CR or a 6month CR?
Sandro Hawke: so, do we need a 1month CR or a 6month CR? ←
17:59:47 <AxelPolleres> ... if we want PR in nov we need CR in oct.
... if we want PR in nov we need CR in oct. ←
18:00:33 <AxelPolleres> ... oct 1 or oct 15 for CR deadline?
... oct 1 or oct 15 for CR deadline? ←
18:00:50 <AxelPolleres> ... to accomodate for management time in between.
... to accomodate for management time in between. ←
18:00:50 <sandro> October 1 for end of CR?
Sandro Hawke: October 1 for end of CR? ←
18:00:57 <sandro> kifer: I wont be ready by then....
Michael Kifer: I wont be ready by then.... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
18:01:00 <AxelPolleres> mk: willl probably not be ready by then.
Michael Kifer: willl probably not be ready by then. ←
18:01:34 <sandro> kifer: I dont have any student to do this right now....
Michael Kifer: I dont have any student to do this right now.... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
18:02:42 <AxelPolleres> sandro: in terms of all the work with the DTB built-ins.
Sandro Hawke: in terms of all the work with the DTB built-ins. ←
18:03:03 <AxelPolleres> ... we don't need all BLD require all of DTB.
... we don't need all BLD require all of DTB. ←
18:03:12 <Harold> We may mostly need translators between RIF and the languages of existing engines, rather than brand-new engines.
Harold Boley: We may mostly need translators between RIF and the languages of existing engines, rather than brand-new engines. ←
18:03:32 <AxelPolleres> axel: what of DTB is in BLD and not in Core?
Axel Polleres: what of DTB is in BLD and not in Core? ←
18:03:38 <sandro> Implementations need: 2 BLD, 2 DTB, 2 SWC-with-Core, 2-DTB-with-BLD.
Sandro Hawke: Implementations need: 2 BLD, 2 DTB, 2 SWC-with-Core, 2-DTB-with-BLD. ←
18:03:50 <sandro> kifer: incompete notion of equality....?
Michael Kifer: incompete notion of equality....? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
18:04:05 <AxelPolleres> sandro: I meant not all of the built-ins, not "core" in the sense of Core.
Sandro Hawke: I meant not all of the built-ins, not "core" in the sense of Core. ←
18:04:37 <AxelPolleres> mk: the reason why implementation is at risk because a complete implementation is hard.
Michael Kifer: the reason why implementation is at risk because a complete implementation is hard. ←
18:04:38 <sandro> (I don't know....)
Sandro Hawke: (I don't know....) ←
18:05:05 <AxelPolleres> mk: i have no idea how far ontoprise will get.
Michael Kifer: i have no idea how far ontoprise will get. ←
18:05:27 <AxelPolleres> chrisw: we should assign actions to gather implementations.
Christopher Welty: we should assign actions to gather implementations. ←
18:05:43 <AxelPolleres> ... hopefully no later than the end of the year.
... hopefully no later than the end of the year. ←
18:06:02 <AxelPolleres> mk: producer is much easier than consumer.
Michael Kifer: producer is much easier than consumer. ←
18:06:22 <ChrisW> action: christian to talk to ontoprise about RIF implementation & timeframe
ACTION: christian to talk to ontoprise about RIF implementation & timeframe ←
18:06:22 <trackbot> Created ACTION-782 - Talk to ontoprise about RIF implementation & timeframe [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2009-04-24].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-782 - Talk to ontoprise about RIF implementation & timeframe [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2009-04-24]. ←
18:06:23 <AxelPolleres> chrisw: who to contact ontoprise?
Christopher Welty: who to contact ontoprise? ←
18:06:35 <AdrianP> implementation plans
Adrian Paschke: implementation plans ←
18:06:36 <AdrianP> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Implementation_plans
Adrian Paschke: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Implementation_plans ←
18:06:37 <ChrisW> action: Chris to talk to Dave about implementation
ACTION: Chris to talk to Dave about implementation ←
18:06:38 <trackbot> Created ACTION-783 - Talk to Dave about implementation [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-04-24].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-783 - Talk to Dave about implementation [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-04-24]. ←
18:06:54 <Harold> Re Equality we could weaken the requirement on implementors to allow for certain logical incomplete implementations such as those that have only oriented equations.
Harold Boley: Re Equality we could weaken the requirement on implementors to allow for certain logical incomplete implementations such as those that have only oriented equations. ←
18:07:16 <ChrisW> action: christian to talk to Mark Proctor about RIF implementation
ACTION: christian to talk to Mark Proctor about RIF implementation ←
18:07:16 <trackbot> Created ACTION-784 - Talk to Mark Proctor about RIF implementation [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2009-04-24].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-784 - Talk to Mark Proctor about RIF implementation [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2009-04-24]. ←
18:07:18 <AxelPolleres> chrisw: any other implementations we haven't talked about?
Christopher Welty: any other implementations we haven't talked about? ←
18:08:34 <AxelPolleres> sandro: planning some BLD implementation, if not all builtins are required.
Sandro Hawke: planning some BLD implementation, if not all builtins are required. ←
18:08:35 <ChrisW> sandro plans an implementation - Oct 1 seems reasonable
Christopher Welty: sandro plans an implementation - Oct 1 seems reasonable ←
18:08:55 <Harold> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Implementation_plans
Harold Boley: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Implementation_plans ←
18:08:56 <AxelPolleres> harold: I contacted igor.
Harold Boley: I contacted igor. ←
18:10:11 <AdrianP> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/List_of_Rule_Systems
Adrian Paschke: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/List_of_Rule_Systems ←
18:10:24 <AxelPolleres> chrisw: everyboduy fine with the plan?
Christopher Welty: everyboduy fine with the plan? ←
18:10:43 <AxelPolleres> csma: w3c tech plenary is nov 1st
Christian de Sainte Marie: w3c tech plenary is nov 1st ←
18:10:50 <AxelPolleres> ... in santa clara, CA.
... in santa clara, CA. ←
18:11:09 <AxelPolleres> ... ac meeting there, around the time we go to CR.
... ac meeting there, around the time we go to CR. ←
18:11:24 <AxelPolleres> ... I will probably go, a lot of AC Reps there.
... I will probably go, a lot of AC Reps there. ←
18:11:44 <AxelPolleres> axel: might try to go as well.
Axel Polleres: might try to go as well. ←
18:12:06 <AxelPolleres> csma: need for a latest f2f before that?
Christian de Sainte Marie: need for a latest f2f before that? ←
18:12:15 <AxelPolleres> sandro: don't think so.
Sandro Hawke: don't think so. ←
18:12:21 <sandro> PROPOSED: Ask to extend the Working Group by 6 months, through 30 November 2009. We will not plan for any more F2F meetings, and expecting fewer telecons.
PROPOSED: Ask to extend the Working Group by 6 months, through 30 November 2009. We will not plan for any more F2F meetings, and expecting fewer telecons. ←
18:13:02 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
18:13:02 <AdrianP> +1
Adrian Paschke: +1 ←
18:13:10 <ChrisW> +1
Christopher Welty: +1 ←
18:13:14 <AxelPolleres> +1
+1 ←
18:13:18 <csma> +1
Christian de Sainte Marie: +1 ←
18:13:19 <josb> +1
Jos de Bruijn: +1 ←
18:13:25 <Harold> +1 (or 9 months :-)
Harold Boley: +1 (or 9 months :-) ←
18:13:52 <sandro> RESOLVED: Ask to extend the Working Group by 6 months, through 30 November 2009. We will not plan for any more F2F meetings, and expecting fewer telecons.
RESOLVED: Ask to extend the Working Group by 6 months, through 30 November 2009. We will not plan for any more F2F meetings, and expecting fewer telecons. ←
18:14:36 <AxelPolleres> topic: test cases
18:15:08 <AxelPolleres> csma: revisit approved ones, volunteers for new ones.
Christian de Sainte Marie: revisit approved ones, volunteers for new ones. ←
18:16:11 <AxelPolleres> axel: do we need testcases for all built-ins?
Axel Polleres: do we need testcases for all built-ins? ←
18:17:01 <AxelPolleres> ... would one TC be ok that calls ALL built-ins?
... would one TC be ok that calls ALL built-ins? ←
18:17:11 <sandro> re taxi: <Ralph> they could call a taxi for 3:30 and wait on Vassar outside the Gates entrance or they could walk up to the Marriott and get a taxi from the stand
Sandro Hawke: re taxi: <Ralph> they could call a taxi for 3:30 and wait on Vassar outside the Gates entrance or they could walk up to the Marriott and get a taxi from the stand ←
18:17:26 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: axel to provide an ALL-builtins testcase.
ACTION: axel to provide an ALL-builtins testcase. ←
18:17:26 <trackbot> Created ACTION-785 - Provide an ALL-builtins testcase. [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-04-24].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-785 - Provide an ALL-builtins testcase. [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-04-24]. ←
18:17:58 <AxelPolleres> sandro: we need testsuite done mid july.
Sandro Hawke: we need testsuite done mid july. ←
18:18:19 <AxelPolleres> chrisw: where to start in our review?
Christopher Welty: where to start in our review? ←
18:20:08 <sandro> Every Core test MUST also work in all PRD and BLD engines.
Sandro Hawke: Every Core test MUST also work in all PRD and BLD engines. ←
18:20:18 <AxelPolleres> discussion whether TCs can be labelled just core
discussion whether TCs can be labelled just core ←
18:21:21 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Argument_names_in_uniterms_3
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Argument_names_in_uniterms_3 ←
18:22:22 <AxelPolleres> sandro: XML is wrong.
Sandro Hawke: XML is wrong. ←
18:24:05 <josb> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/BLD#Alphabet_of_RIF-BLD
Jos de Bruijn: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/BLD#Alphabet_of_RIF-BLD ←
18:24:20 <AxelPolleres> jos: according to spec named args are unicodes strings.
Jos de Bruijn: according to spec named args are unicodes strings. ←
18:25:07 <AxelPolleres> sandro: the testcase should be positive
Sandro Hawke: the testcase should be positive ←
18:25:51 <AxelPolleres> I asked already what about a->b->c and strange stuff like that.
I asked already what about a->b->c and strange stuff like that. ←
18:25:57 <sandro> the negative test case in the XML would be ANY kind of markup in name. The name is just text.
Sandro Hawke: the negative test case in the XML would be ANY kind of markup in name. The name is just text. ←
18:26:34 <AxelPolleres> csma: that means that this TC is not approved?
Christian de Sainte Marie: that means that this TC is not approved? ←
18:27:26 <AxelPolleres> or: "asdasd->asdasd"->"asdasd"
or: "asdasd->asdasd"->"asdasd" ←
18:27:38 <sandro> POSITIVE SYNTAX: <Name>"http://example.com/example#color"^^xs:string</Name>
Sandro Hawke: POSITIVE SYNTAX: <Name>"http://example.com/example#color"^^xs:string</Name> ←
18:28:01 <sandro> NEGATIVE SYNTAX: <Name><Const type="&xs;string">green</Const>
Sandro Hawke: NEGATIVE SYNTAX: <Name><Const type="&xs;string">green</Const> ←
18:28:01 <sandro> </Name>
Sandro Hawke: </Name> ←
18:28:08 <sandro> NEGATIVE SYNTAX: <Name><Const type="&xs;string">green</Const></Name>
Sandro Hawke: NEGATIVE SYNTAX: <Name><Const type="&xs;string">green</Const></Name> ←
18:28:34 <AxelPolleres> chrisw: is it possible for the exact same literal to be a const and an arg name?
Christopher Welty: is it possible for the exact same literal to be a const and an arg name? ←
18:29:17 <AxelPolleres> csma/jos: Yes!
csma/jos: Yes! ←
18:30:11 <AxelPolleres> chrisw: why is there no ps for this?
Christopher Welty: why is there no ps for this? ←
18:31:29 <sandro> chrisw: So you can't write the bad-xml in the PS. Okay.
Christopher Welty: So you can't write the bad-xml in the PS. Okay. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
18:31:58 <sandro> POSITIVE SYNTAX: <Name><Const type="&xs;string">green</Const></Name>
Sandro Hawke: POSITIVE SYNTAX: <Name><Const type="&xs;string">green</Const></Name> ←
18:32:13 <AxelPolleres> chrisw: the thing that shouldn't parse can't be said in PS.
Christopher Welty: the thing that shouldn't parse can't be said in PS. ←
18:32:15 <sandro> everyone: okay.
Sandro Hawke: everyone: okay. ←
18:32:22 <sandro> everyone: yeah, of course.
Sandro Hawke: everyone: yeah, of course. ←
18:33:01 <AxelPolleres> chrisw: shall we drop the test?
Christopher Welty: shall we drop the test? ←
18:33:30 <AxelPolleres> ... what about http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Argument_names_in_uniterms_1
... what about http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Argument_names_in_uniterms_1 ←
18:33:40 <AxelPolleres> ... basically the same... so we drop all these?
... basically the same... so we drop all these? ←
18:37:09 <sandro> chrisw: the thing in the argname position is NEVER a rif Const.
Christopher Welty: the thing in the argname position is NEVER a rif Const. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
18:37:29 <AxelPolleres> mk: I disagree.
Michael Kifer: I disagree. ←
18:38:39 <AxelPolleres> discussion on what is a symbol/constant in the language
discussion on what is a symbol/constant in the language ←
18:39:08 <AxelPolleres> PROPOSED: drop http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Argument_names_in_uniterms_1-4
PROPOSED: drop http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Argument_names_in_uniterms_1-4 ←
18:39:19 <josb> +1
Jos de Bruijn: +1 ←
18:39:28 <AxelPolleres> +1
+1 ←
18:39:37 <ChrisW> 0
18:39:56 <MichaelKifer> 0
Michael Kifer: 0 ←
18:40:03 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
18:40:03 <AdrianP> 0
Adrian Paschke: 0 ←
18:40:05 <Harold> +1
Harold Boley: +1 ←
18:40:29 <AxelPolleres> +1->":-)"
+1->":-)" ←
18:40:35 <sandro> these test cases speak to an important confusion in NAUs, but they don't actually clarify it right now.
Sandro Hawke: these test cases speak to an important confusion in NAUs, but they don't actually clarify it right now. ←
18:40:53 <AxelPolleres> RESOLVED: drop http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Argument_names_in_uniterms_1-4
RESOLVED: drop http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Argument_names_in_uniterms_1-4 ←
18:40:58 <ChrisW> action: Stella to makr argnamesinuniterms as rejected
ACTION: Stella to makr argnamesinuniterms as rejected ←
18:40:58 <trackbot> Created ACTION-786 - Makr argnamesinuniterms as rejected [on Stella Mitchell - due 2009-04-24].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-786 - Makr argnamesinuniterms as rejected [on Stella Mitchell - due 2009-04-24]. ←
18:41:04 <sandro> drop == mark as "Rejected"
Sandro Hawke: drop == mark as "Rejected" ←
18:41:31 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Assert
Christopher Welty: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Assert ←
18:41:34 <Harold> A solution would be to be (much) more restrictive wrt what unicode strings are allowed to represent ArgNames.
Harold Boley: A solution would be to be (much) more restrictive wrt what unicode strings are allowed to represent ArgNames. ←
18:41:35 <AxelPolleres> subtopic: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Assert
18:42:20 <AxelPolleres> q+
q+ ←
18:42:52 <sandro> csma: the name does not need to be repeated.
Christian de Sainte Marie: the name does not need to be repeated. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
18:43:42 <AxelPolleres> axel: is assert a constant?
Axel Polleres: is assert a constant? ←
18:43:52 <AxelPolleres> csma: no, a language primitive in PRD.
Christian de Sainte Marie: no, a language primitive in PRD. ←
18:44:20 <sandro> sandro: YOu can't have a PRD test case using just assert, since then it's core.
Sandro Hawke: YOu can't have a PRD test case using just assert, since then it's core. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
18:44:24 <sandro> csma: right.
Christian de Sainte Marie: right. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
18:44:50 <Harold> ArgNames, as 'indexes' into terms, could, e.g., be restricted to just *alphanumeric* ASCII unicode strings (disallowing the characters for double-quote and hat among other characters).
Harold Boley: ArgNames, as 'indexes' into terms, could, e.g., be restricted to just *alphanumeric* ASCII unicode strings (disallowing the characters for double-quote and hat among other characters). ←
18:46:12 <sandro> instead have: forall ?x if ?x[ex:status -> "gold"] then ?x[ex:discount -> 10]
Sandro Hawke: instead have: forall ?x if ?x[ex:status -> "gold"] then ?x[ex:discount -> 10] ←
18:46:37 <sandro> but this is a Core test case.
Sandro Hawke: but this is a Core test case. ←
18:47:02 <sandro> could be done as a PRD test case if we add modify, or retract+assert.
Sandro Hawke: could be done as a PRD test case if we add modify, or retract+assert. ←
18:47:32 <AxelPolleres> chrisw: adrian, can you fix that one?
Christopher Welty: adrian, can you fix that one? ←
18:47:37 <ChrisW> action: Adrian to change Assert test case as in meeting minutes
ACTION: Adrian to change Assert test case as in meeting minutes ←
18:47:37 <trackbot> Created ACTION-787 - Change Assert test case as in meeting minutes [on Adrian Paschke - due 2009-04-24].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-787 - Change Assert test case as in meeting minutes [on Adrian Paschke - due 2009-04-24]. ←
18:48:18 <AxelPolleres> subtopic: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/AssertRetract
18:48:20 <sandro> +1 harold -- ArgNames being just [_a-zA-z][_a-zA-Z0-9]*
Sandro Hawke: +1 harold -- ArgNames being just [_a-zA-z][_a-zA-Z0-9]* ←
18:49:04 <AxelPolleres> we had that discussion on argnames before...
we had that discussion on argnames before... ←
18:50:15 <Harold> Right, but it's some progress to say we should restrict their alphabet.
Harold Boley: Right, but it's some progress to say we should restrict their alphabet. ←
18:50:52 <AxelPolleres> it would be (I just gave up on it last time, nobody seemed to be willing to restrict it)
it would be (I just gave up on it last time, nobody seemed to be willing to restrict it) ←
18:51:08 <ChrisW> action: adrian to modify AssertRetract in the same way as Assert
ACTION: adrian to modify AssertRetract in the same way as Assert ←
18:51:08 <trackbot> Created ACTION-788 - Modify AssertRetract in the same way as Assert [on Adrian Paschke - due 2009-04-24].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-788 - Modify AssertRetract in the same way as Assert [on Adrian Paschke - due 2009-04-24]. ←
18:51:39 <AxelPolleres> subtopic: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Retract
18:52:17 <AxelPolleres> subtopic: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Modify
18:52:45 <AxelPolleres> both the same.
both the same. ←
18:53:09 <AxelPolleres> s/same/same issue?/
s/same/same issue?/ ←
18:54:19 <AxelPolleres> gary: .../Retract should be a negative entailment test
Gary Hallmark: .../Retract should be a negative entailment test ←
18:54:35 <AxelPolleres> jos: empty set is entailed by everything.
Jos de Bruijn: empty set is entailed by everything. ←
18:54:51 <ChrisW> action: adrian to update Retract test case as with assert, fixing object retraction
ACTION: adrian to update Retract test case as with assert, fixing object retraction ←
18:54:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-789 - Update Retract test case as with assert, fixing object retraction [on Adrian Paschke - due 2009-04-24].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-789 - Update Retract test case as with assert, fixing object retraction [on Adrian Paschke - due 2009-04-24]. ←
18:55:24 <AxelPolleres> subtopic: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Class_Membership
18:56:08 <AxelPolleres> adrian: I simplified that one.
Adrian Paschke: I simplified that one. ←
18:58:42 <sandro> take our parent and child as classes and make male be a class.
Sandro Hawke: take our parent and child as classes and make male be a class. ←
19:00:13 <AxelPolleres> axel: I suggest to replace classes child and parent with class person
Axel Polleres: I suggest to replace classes child and parent with class person ←
19:00:38 <AxelPolleres> chrisw: remove the classes at all.
Christopher Welty: remove the classes at all. ←
19:01:06 <AxelPolleres> ... but make Male a class.
... but make Male a class. ←
19:03:19 <AxelPolleres> Adrian: nested molecules a la f-logic would be nice but not allowed in RIF.
Adrian Paschke: nested molecules a la f-logic would be nice but not allowed in RIF. ←
19:03:49 <ChrisW> action: adrian to fix ClassMembership and rename
ACTION: adrian to fix ClassMembership and rename ←
19:03:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-790 - Fix ClassMembership and rename [on Adrian Paschke - due 2009-04-24].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-790 - Fix ClassMembership and rename [on Adrian Paschke - due 2009-04-24]. ←
19:03:55 <sandro> sandro: it would be NICE to allow membership predicates as terms....
Sandro Hawke: it would be NICE to allow membership predicates as terms.... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
19:04:01 <sandro> chrisw: yeah, whatever. :-)
Christopher Welty: yeah, whatever. :-) [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
19:04:33 <AxelPolleres> subtopic: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Classification-inheritance
19:05:16 <AxelPolleres> chrisw: that is a bad thing to do, should we mark that?
Christopher Welty: that is a bad thing to do, should we mark that? ←
19:06:03 <AxelPolleres> mk: this is basically default values.
Michael Kifer: this is basically default values. ←
19:06:23 <AxelPolleres> ... not really a default, it would override all.
... not really a default, it would override all. ←
19:06:54 <sandro> gary: I, P, and V should be quantified
Gary Hallmark: I, P, and V should be quantified [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
19:07:10 <sandro> chrisw: We need to say this is a REALLY BAD PRACTICE.
Christopher Welty: We need to say this is a REALLY BAD PRACTICE. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
19:10:04 <AxelPolleres> chrisw: can be approved modulo fixing XML.
Christopher Welty: can be approved modulo fixing XML. ←
19:10:57 <sandro> PROPOSED: approve test case http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Classification-inheritance
PROPOSED: approve test case http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Classification-inheritance ←
19:10:58 <Harold> +1
Harold Boley: +1 ←
19:11:01 <ChrisW> +1
Christopher Welty: +1 ←
19:11:01 <AxelPolleres> +1
+1 ←
19:11:02 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
19:11:07 <MichaelKifer> +1
Michael Kifer: +1 ←
19:11:09 <josb> +1
Jos de Bruijn: +1 ←
19:11:27 <sandro> RESOLVED: approve test case http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Classification-inheritance
RESOLVED: approve test case http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Classification-inheritance ←
19:12:15 <AxelPolleres> subtopic: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Conflict_resolution
19:14:36 <ChrisW> action: cke to write test cases for PRD
ACTION: cke to write test cases for PRD ←
19:14:36 <trackbot> Created ACTION-791 - Write test cases for PRD [on Changhai Ke - due 2009-04-24].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-791 - Write test cases for PRD [on Changhai Ke - due 2009-04-24]. ←
19:14:38 <sandro> PROPOSED: Approve http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Conflict_resolution
PROPOSED: Approve http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Conflict_resolution ←
19:15:12 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
19:15:16 <josb> +1
Jos de Bruijn: +1 ←
19:15:17 <ChrisW> +1
Christopher Welty: +1 ←
19:15:22 <Harold> +1
Harold Boley: +1 ←
19:15:24 <AxelPolleres> +1
+1 ←
19:15:27 <csma> +1
Christian de Sainte Marie: +1 ←
19:15:31 <AdrianP> +1
Adrian Paschke: +1 ←
19:15:31 <sandro> RESOLVED: Approve http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Conflict_resolution
RESOLVED: Approve http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Conflict_resolution ←
19:15:32 <cke> +1
Changhai Ke: +1 ←
19:15:35 <MichaelKifer> +1
Michael Kifer: +1 ←
19:15:54 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/meeting/2009-04-17
Christopher Welty: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/meeting/2009-04-17 ←
19:16:10 <ChrisW> scribe: MichaelKifer
(Scribe set to Michael Kifer)
19:16:46 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/meeting/2009-04-17
Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/meeting/2009-04-17 ←
19:16:58 <MichaelKifer> core non-safeness test case
core non-safeness test case ←
19:18:55 <MichaelKifer> sandro: negative tests must be explicit as to which dialect extensions it applies to
Sandro Hawke: negative tests must be explicit as to which dialect extensions it applies to ←
19:20:27 <sandro> A negative syntax test for PRD is be definition a negative syntax test for Core.
Sandro Hawke: A negative syntax test for PRD is be definition a negative syntax test for Core. ←
19:20:41 <MichaelKifer> jos: changed the dialect of the example to prd from core
Jos de Bruijn: changed the dialect of the example to prd from core ←
19:21:08 <ChrisW> action: Stella to add note in test case document that negative tests 'go down' and positive tests "go up"
ACTION: Stella to add note in test case document that negative tests 'go down' and positive tests "go up" ←
19:21:08 <trackbot> Created ACTION-792 - Add note in test case document that negative tests 'go down' and positive tests "go up" [on Stella Mitchell - due 2009-04-24].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-792 - Add note in test case document that negative tests 'go down' and positive tests "go up" [on Stella Mitchell - due 2009-04-24]. ←
19:22:22 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Core_NonSafeness
PROPOSED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Core_NonSafeness ←
19:22:24 <ChrisW> +1
Christopher Welty: +1 ←
19:22:27 <cke> +1
Changhai Ke: +1 ←
19:22:28 <josb> +1
Jos de Bruijn: +1 ←
19:22:31 <MichaelKifer> +1
+1 ←
19:22:32 <sandro> as a PRD case.
Sandro Hawke: as a PRD case. ←
19:22:37 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
19:22:38 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Core_NonSafeness
RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Core_NonSafeness ←
19:22:50 <Harold> +1
Harold Boley: +1 ←
19:22:50 <sandro> no need to rename.
Sandro Hawke: no need to rename. ←
19:27:20 <MichaelKifer> +1
+1 ←
19:27:21 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Core_NonSafeness2
PROPOSED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Core_NonSafeness2 ←
19:27:23 <AdrianP> +1
Adrian Paschke: +1 ←
19:27:24 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Core_NonSafeness_2
PROPOSED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Core_NonSafeness_2 ←
19:27:26 <ChrisW> +1
Christopher Welty: +1 ←
19:27:44 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Core_NonSafeness_2
RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Core_NonSafeness_2 ←
19:31:02 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Core_Safeness
PROPOSED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Core_Safeness ←
19:31:03 <Harold> +1
Harold Boley: +1 ←
19:31:04 <MichaelKifer> +1
+1 ←
19:31:04 <ChrisW> +1
Christopher Welty: +1 ←
19:31:18 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Core_Safeness
RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Core_Safeness ←
19:31:19 <AdrianP> +1
Adrian Paschke: +1 ←
19:31:24 <AxelPolleres> +1
Axel Polleres: +1 ←
19:31:26 <GaryHallmark> +1
Gary Hallmark: +1 ←
19:31:52 <MichaelKifer> jos: too lazy to type +1
Jos de Bruijn: too lazy to type +1 ←
19:33:26 <GaryHallmark> +1
Gary Hallmark: +1 ←
19:33:27 <MichaelKifer> +1
+1 ←
19:33:29 <Harold> +1
Harold Boley: +1 ←
19:33:32 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Core_Safeness_2
PROPOSED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Core_Safeness_2 ←
19:33:41 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Core_Safeness_2
RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Core_Safeness_2 ←
19:38:16 <MichaelKifer> +1
+1 ←
19:38:17 <AdrianP> +1
Adrian Paschke: +1 ←
19:38:17 <GaryHallmark> +1
Gary Hallmark: +1 ←
19:38:17 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: Accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Core_Safeness_3
PROPOSED: Accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Core_Safeness_3 ←
19:38:17 <Harold> +1
Harold Boley: +1 ←
19:38:21 <ChrisW> +1
Christopher Welty: +1 ←
19:38:24 <AdrianP> +1
Adrian Paschke: +1 ←
19:38:29 <MichaelKifer> +1
+1 ←
19:38:30 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: Accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Core_Safeness_3
RESOLVED: Accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Core_Safeness_3 ←
19:38:34 <MichaelKifer> +1
+1 ←
19:38:35 <MichaelKifer> +1
+1 ←
19:39:55 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/EntailEverything
PROPOSED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/EntailEverything ←
19:39:57 <ChrisW> +1
Christopher Welty: +1 ←
19:39:58 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
19:40:02 <AxelPolleres> +1
Axel Polleres: +1 ←
19:40:03 <AdrianP> +1
Adrian Paschke: +1 ←
19:40:09 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/EntailEverything
RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/EntailEverything ←
19:40:11 <Harold> +1
Harold Boley: +1 ←
19:41:58 <sandro> Any BLD or PRD test cases, it's a NEGATIVE SYNTAX test for Core. Otherwise, it would be marked as a Core test.
Sandro Hawke: Any BLD or PRD test cases, it's a NEGATIVE SYNTAX test for Core. Otherwise, it would be marked as a Core test. ←
19:43:59 <MichaelKifer> +1
+1 ←
19:44:12 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Factorial_Functional
PROPOSED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Factorial_Functional ←
19:44:21 <ChrisW> +1
Christopher Welty: +1 ←
19:44:23 <GaryHallmark> +1
Gary Hallmark: +1 ←
19:44:26 <StellaMitchell> +1
Stella Mitchell: +1 ←
19:44:30 <MichaelKifer> +1
+1 ←
19:44:31 <sandro> +1 wow it'll be hard to implement.
Sandro Hawke: +1 wow it'll be hard to implement. ←
19:44:35 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Factorial_Functional
RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Factorial_Functional ←
19:44:35 <AdrianP> +1
Adrian Paschke: +1 ←
19:44:48 <AxelPolleres> +1
Axel Polleres: +1 ←
19:45:52 <sandro> gary: do a core version of this.
Gary Hallmark: do a core version of this. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
19:47:48 <ChrisW> ACTION: GARY to write a core version of factorial
ACTION: GARY to write a core version of factorial ←
19:47:48 <trackbot> Created ACTION-793 - Write a core version of factorial [on Gary Hallmark - due 2009-04-24].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-793 - Write a core version of factorial [on Gary Hallmark - due 2009-04-24]. ←
19:47:59 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Factorial_Relational
PROPOSED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Factorial_Relational ←
19:48:02 <ChrisW> +1
Christopher Welty: +1 ←
19:48:03 <sandro> Gary: I would expect the test-taker to manually guide how many iterations they run to get the required entailment, so it wont "run forever"
Gary Hallmark: I would expect the test-taker to manually guide how many iterations they run to get the required entailment, so it wont "run forever" [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
19:48:06 <MichaelKifer> +1
+1 ←
19:48:14 <StellaMitchell> +1
Stella Mitchell: +1 ←
19:48:15 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Factorial_Relational
RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Factorial_Relational ←
19:48:17 <GaryHallmark> +1
Gary Hallmark: +1 ←
19:48:19 <AxelPolleres> +1
Axel Polleres: +1 ←
19:50:02 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/IRI_from_IRI
PROPOSED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/IRI_from_IRI ←
19:50:03 <GaryHallmark> +1
Gary Hallmark: +1 ←
19:50:06 <MichaelKifer> +1
+1 ←
19:50:08 <AdrianP> +1
Adrian Paschke: +1 ←
19:50:11 <AxelPolleres> +1
Axel Polleres: +1 ←
19:50:12 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/IRI_from_IRI
RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/IRI_from_IRI ←
19:50:13 <sandro> wow, the one is totally twisted. I like it.....
Sandro Hawke: wow, the one is totally twisted. I like it..... ←
19:50:22 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
19:50:34 <MichaelKifer> sandro: the previous case was nasty
Sandro Hawke: the previous case was nasty ←
19:50:49 <Harold> +1
Harold Boley: +1 ←
19:53:40 <AxelPolleres> xmlns:foaf="http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/"
Axel Polleres: xmlns:foaf="http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/" ←
19:56:06 <AxelPolleres> +1
Axel Polleres: +1 ←
19:57:25 <MichaelKifer> +1
+1 ←
19:57:37 <MichaelKifer> sandro: this test is worth living for
Sandro Hawke: this test is worth living for ←
19:57:56 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/IRI_from_RDF_Literal
PROPOSED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/IRI_from_RDF_Literal ←
19:58:14 <Harold> +1
Harold Boley: +1 ←
19:58:17 <AxelPolleres> +1
Axel Polleres: +1 ←
19:58:19 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/IRI_from_RDF_Literal
RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/IRI_from_RDF_Literal ←
19:58:33 <Harold> Before LC, we could bring in a few extra meaningful test cases, e.g. by Jos De Roo for the Euler Proof Mechanism (http://www.agfa.com/w3c/euler/): http://www.agfa.com/w3c/euler/authen.axiom.n3
Harold Boley: Before LC, we could bring in a few extra meaningful test cases, e.g. by Jos De Roo for the Euler Proof Mechanism (http://www.agfa.com/w3c/euler/): http://www.agfa.com/w3c/euler/authen.axiom.n3 ←
20:01:04 <MichaelKifer> +1
+1 ←
20:01:09 <AdrianP> +1
Adrian Paschke: +1 ←
20:01:14 <sandro> sandro: So this means that in practice, to implement your test cases, you'll probably have to rename all you rif-locals
Sandro Hawke: So this means that in practice, to implement your test cases, you'll probably have to rename all you rif-locals [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
20:01:17 <sandro> jos: correct.
Jos de Bruijn: correct. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
20:01:19 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Local_Constant
PROPOSED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Local_Constant ←
20:01:21 <ChrisW> +1
Christopher Welty: +1 ←
20:01:25 <Harold> +1
Harold Boley: +1 ←
20:01:39 <StellaMitchell> +1
Stella Mitchell: +1 ←
20:01:42 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Local_Constant
RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Local_Constant ←
20:01:43 <AdrianP> +1
Adrian Paschke: +1 ←
20:01:43 <GaryHallmark> +1
Gary Hallmark: +1 ←
20:01:45 <sandro> +1 although i don't really like it.
Sandro Hawke: +1 although i don't really like it. ←
20:02:22 <MichaelKifer> note: conclusions are not part of the document that entails them (to keep in mind for the tests that use rif:local).
note: conclusions are not part of the document that entails them (to keep in mind for the tests that use rif:local). ←
20:02:43 <GaryHallmark> +1
Gary Hallmark: +1 ←
20:03:18 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Local_Predicate
PROPOSED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Local_Predicate ←
20:03:21 <Harold> +1
Harold Boley: +1 ←
20:03:21 <AxelPolleres> +1
Axel Polleres: +1 ←
20:03:22 <AdrianP> +1
Adrian Paschke: +1 ←
20:03:24 <MichaelKifer> +1
+1 ←
20:03:29 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Local_Predicate
RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Local_Predicate ←
20:03:36 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: adjourn
PROPOSED: adjourn ←
20:03:42 <GaryHallmark> +1
Gary Hallmark: +1 ←
20:03:56 <AxelPolleres> -1 let's continue! :-)
Axel Polleres: -1 let's continue! :-) ←
20:04:17 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: gang up on Axel
PROPOSED: gang up on Axel ←
20:04:37 <AxelPolleres> -1 on that one , then I rather accept adjourning
Axel Polleres: -1 on that one , then I rather accept adjourning ←
20:04:49 <josb> more nasty string-iri stuff: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Multiple_IRIs_from_String
Jos de Bruijn: more nasty string-iri stuff: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Multiple_IRIs_from_String ←
20:04:53 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
Christopher Welty: rrsagent, make minutes ←
20:04:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/17-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/17-rif-minutes.html ChrisW ←
Formatted by CommonScribe
This revision (#4) generated 2009-04-17 20:07:17 UTC by 'sandro', comments: 'scribe errors corrected'