See also: IRC log
<Larry> scribe: Larry Masinter
<Larry> scribenick: Larry
<plinss> jar: http://www.w3.org/2006/tools/wiki/Zakim-SIP
Noah: HT will join at 'top of hour'
Ashok regrets next week
<NoahM> Jan 27 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/01/27-minutes
<NoahM> RESOLUTION: Minutes of 27 January are approved http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/01/27-minutes
<NoahM> Attendance list to be cleaned up by Noah
Larry: note minutes 'present' list didn't get PLinss
Noah: put off approval of F2F minutes
(short discussion of progress on filling TAG vacancy)
Noah: John would like to put off discussing action-355 until next week (out sick)
<NoahM> 303 Status Code Redirections
noah: Jonathan raised issue and he would like to have a discussion of which issue to track this under
jar: The problem in general was discussed at F2F
action-532?
<trackbot> ACTION-532 -- Jonathan Rees to propose changes to status of issue-39 & issue-57, and perhaps opening new issue relating to H. Halpin's concerns about 200 responses Due: 2011-02-22 -- due 2011-02-21 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/532
jar: I am going to be doing a lot more work on this, and a lot more discussion, how should we track this
noah: was discussed under HTTP semantics, F2F agenda didn't show this
<jar> Larry: (1) how meaning is connected to URI (2) what mechanism to use
<NoahM> ISSUE-14?
<trackbot> ISSUE-14 -- What is the range of the HTTP dereference function? -- closed
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/14
larry: there's a general problem ("how to associate meaning with a URI") and specific mechanisms ("303 Redirect") and the two are intertwined but...
noah: some of this was raised under issue-14
jar: Went back and read minutes of March 2002
... When Tim framed the problem, 'what is the range of HTTP dereference' was raised perhaps ironically
... Larry was right! The "real issue" was "How is meaning associated with a URI", and the "http range" issue was subsidiary to that
Noah: I came into that discussion with a different view of "representation"
... I don't think it's fair to say that (broad range of views) were represented
JAR: more interesting to look at what people want to do
noah: prior discussion was under certain issues, we should reuse issue numbers for tracking
jar: it is my preference to have a new issue
<NoahM> LM: The general issue is how we associate "meaning" with URIs
<jar> maybe new issue title - associating meaning with uris
<NoahM> LM: tdb scheme then becomes a TAG topic as a possible mechanism
<NoahM> LM: I meant the tdb/duri document as a contribution representing not necessarily the right mechanism, but at least an alternative mechanism
lm: it may be that different mechanisms are appropriate at different times
noah: .action jar to propose an issue page around topic 6 of 2/24/11 tag meeting
<NoahM> ACTION-532?
<trackbot> ACTION-532 -- Jonathan Rees to propose changes to status of issue-39 & issue-57, and perhaps opening new issue relating to H. Halpin's concerns about 200 responses Due: 2011-02-22 -- due 2011-02-21 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/532
<NoahM> close ACTION-532
<trackbot> ACTION-532 Propose changes to status of issue-39 & issue-57, and perhaps opening new issue relating to H. Halpin's concerns about 200 responses Due: 2011-02-22 closed
<NoahM> . ACTION Jonathan to create issue page relating to Harry Halpin's concerns about 200/303 responses
<NoahM> ACTION Jonathan to create issue page relating to Harry Halpin's concerns about 200/303 responses
<trackbot> Created ACTION-534 - Create issue page relating to Harry Halpin's concerns about 200/303 responses [on Jonathan Rees - due 2011-03-03].
action-531?
<trackbot> ACTION-531 -- Larry Masinter to draft document on architectural good practice relating to registries -- due 2011-04-19 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/531
noah: had a substantial discussion at F2F
<noah> LM: I have discussed with application area directors and have engaged with Michelle Cotton who runs IANA
LM: We discussed registration issues relating to MIME types, etc. Aim is to raise awareness, engage conversation. These are copied to www-tag list.
... There is important discussion to be had regarding both architecture and process
<noah> I have read the emails.
<noah> JAR: Read them, looks great. Kudos.
<noah> AM: +1
<noah> Note, minutes of F2F discussion of this are mislabeled under http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/02/10-minutes#item05
<scribe> ScribeNick: noah
Slides from Henry: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/iab_panel_2011.html
AM: All the technical stuff is in the last slide. I'd like more meat.
LM: Yes. The expectation is that this will be a technical talk. Feedback is to shift toward more technical. The intro stuff is fine as far as it goes.
NM: Are we ready to flesh out the technical bits now?
AM: Well there are bullets:
* Use of URIs for identifying (parts of) application state
* Rethinking privacy
* Web Security as it becomes Application Security
* Device APIs: the difficulty of distinguishing between protocol and API
<Larry> ScribeNick: Larry
ashok: "rethinking privacy" -- what is that supposed to cover?
... does that cover minimization? do not track?
<noah> AM: Are we going into detail on privacy, e.g. minimization stuff, etc?
AM: for example
... what is "web security becomes application security"
<noah> LM: Let's take the privacy one. We're talking in the TAG about API minimization, so we could go into that.
<noah> LM: Also missing is discussion of fragids and state.
<noah> LM: Also talking about storage, and communication of application state.
lm: there should be some slides on that
noah: would like to have TAG discussion of #!
am: I've been working on client-side state, and added some discussion of #!, i will check it in and we can talk about that in 2 weeks
larry: don't think it works with prague schedule
noah: should schedule discussion of #! asap
<noah> LM: Would you do a slide or two on client-side state handling?
<noah> AM: Yes.
lm: would you be willing to draft some slides on client-side state and #! ?
<noah> ACTION-500 more or less done, just need to make sure Henry is registered.
<noah> close ACTION-500
<trackbot> ACTION-500 Coordinate about TAG participation in IETF/IAB panel at March 2011 IETF closed
<noah> ACTION-517?
<trackbot> ACTION-517 -- Larry Masinter to figure out what to say about scalability of access at IETF panel -- due 2011-02-15 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/517
<noah> LM: I need help with ACTION-517. We've groaned about this one, how the W3C site gets overloaded.
<noah> LM: This affects IETF use of URIs in datastructures as well as W3C ones.
lm: I'd like someone else to help with action-517
noah: don't think we can tell IETF we've solved it
<noah> NM: I think there are issues at two levels. One is the level you said, which is that sites like W3C's and potentially IETF's get overloaded.
<noah> NM: What's perhaps deeper is the fact that the specs for the Web-level protocols don't provide for any mandatory rate limiting or flow control.
lm: asking Noah to generate slide "problem statement" + "directions"
<noah> ACTION: Noah to draft IAB meeting slide on scalability issues. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/02/24-tagmem-irc]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-535 - Draft IAB meeting slide on scalability issues. [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2011-03-03].
Larry: link 535 to action-517
<noah> close ACTION-499
<trackbot> ACTION-499 Prepare product description page for work on IETF presentation. closed
<noah> LM: Part of the presentation should be, how do we want to work with IETF and IAB in the future.
<noah> Noah hopes Henry will see that in the minutes of this telcon.
<noah> LM: Noah, what should slide 8 say?
<noah> LM: Example, there is an IAB document on protocol extensibilty. I thought it was interesting, and interestingly different from where we went with our own versioning discussion.
<noah> Welcome Henry.
noah: Larry's been working as human cross-reference, we should handle this more regularly
<noah> LM: There is a liaison effort, but not TAG or IAB focused.
noah: DanC used to be active in IETF/W3C coordination
<noah> NM: Yeah, part of the way we used to cover that was with Dan Connolly's participation?
<noah> LM: TAG meeting near IETF sometime?
lm: joint phone call, etc?
<noah> LM: When I look at what John Peterson's email was asking, it's primarily technical
<noah> HT: Yes, but we agreed we needed some background as well.
<noah> LM: Yes, agreed.
lm: I think we can summarize our understanding of the problem, and note the kinds of solutions we're talking about
<noah> LM: We spend a lot of time talking about semantics, URIs and meaning, etc. We aren't talking about that. Why not in this presentation?
<noah> HT: Wasn't convinced they'd be interested, or stated differently, those who are interested there are already engaged (e.g. Mark Nottingham)
<noah> LM: But I think it's important that they understand why we care, or why it might have impact.
<noah> HT: Fair enough.
<noah> LM: Frame as: we're not making random suggestions. Semantic Web is important for linking data and not just documents, understanding what data is about, etc. W3C is working on this, and IETF mostly isn't.
<noah> LM: There may be some other things under the banner "things you should be glad we're working on"
lm: When we tell HTTP we want some changes to specs, or want IANA to maintain stable URIs ... why do we care? What is this about?
noah: applications link to documents; sometimes apps looks like apps, and sometimes apps look like documents that just are implemented as apps
... these things have architectural impact
ht: need to go
action-381?
<trackbot> ACTION-381 -- Jonathan Rees to spend 2 hours helping Ian with http://www.w3.org/standards/webarch/ -- due 2011-02-28 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/381
noah: we've had actions for 3-4 years and i'm nervous about scheduling this, it just seems like a bigger job
http://www.w3.org/standards/webarch/
Lm: There is already a site, and an outline with 6 topics, of which only 1 is filled out
<NoahM> Web Arch slices it as:
<NoahM> * Identification
<NoahM> * Interaction
<NoahM> * Data Formats
lm: it's already public
jar: It's been a while since I've been able to see WebArch freshly.... the real work to be done here is presentation.
noah: why do we use the word protocol when it uses the word interaction
jar: that's the least of our worries
noah: outline of webarch is not a bad outline
jar: it isn't succeeding
noah: it isn't widely read, but they are useful
<jar> lm: ian's outline is there, can we just fix it up
noah: I suggested, as a start, to change them to match webarch
+1 to noah's suggestion
noah: things like "meta-formats" might be higher level
larry: you now have a suggestion on action-381
noah: whoever does the work should look at best practices in webarch... are there any stories we should tell
larry: don't recapitulate, just make pointers
s/topic: web site/topic: web site action-381/
<jar> this is helpful, recorded in minutes, i will review when i work on it
adjourn